Wiring Advice for Electric Heater.

[Dan Mages]

I need to redo the electric heat in the family room and can use the advice of those here as there is no easy way to run the wire.

The family room is on the lower level of a split level ranch. It is on slab next to the garage, half way between the basement and main living space, and below the bedrooms. This room was originally heated by ductwork under the slab. At some point before we moved in, the ducts were abandoned and replaced with 26' of electric baseboard heat. This is severe overkill for a 450 sqft room. I have been looking into the options for heating the room and feel that replacing the baseboard with a surface mount electric convection panel is my best option.
http://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/products/cns-e-wall-mounted-convection-heaters

Running a wire to the new heater is a challenge as the walls have wood paneling as you can see in the picture below (and yes, that is an original Great Grape Ape cell signed by Hannah & Barbara.) The new heater will be placed under the window to the right as this is closest to my wife's home office space. I can think of three options to run the wire.

1. Use a metal raceway along the baseboard, to the wall common to the basement, and then to the panel.
2. Fish the wire through the garage, across the ceiling, and then down the wall.
3. use my circular saw to cut off the bottom 3" off of the paneling so I can run it behind the outside wall. Reattach the cut-offs and then cover the saw line with baseboard.

Does anyone have any better ideas?? I can go over the reason for electric heat, if anyone wants.

Thanks for the help!

Dan

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[Doug Garson]

I'm curious why the 26 ft of baseboards is a problem. Are they not controlled by a thermostat? Won't a single heater make it more difficult to uniformly heat the space?
If the new heater is in an outside wall fishing the wire in the wall will be very difficult, running the wire behind the baseboard will require either a conduit to protect the wire or run the wire in the wall which requires removing and replacing the vapor barrier and insulation.

[Pat Barry]

Not knowing your specific circumstances its hard to say, but you obviously have a lot of heat capacity with the existing baseboard set up. Its already installed and although its overkill, it only runs when its needed. You could possibly even turn off some of them. The new heater?? How many will be installed? Were you planning to remove the existing baseboard system? Where does the wiring come in to service those heaters? Lots more questions.

[Alan Rutherford]

You might be able to get it behind the crown molding. You'd probably have to pull the molding off - you wouldn't be able to pull around the corner. You have to come down from the ceiling at some point but it would give you more options.

[Dan Mages]

I'm curious why the 26 ft of baseboards is a problem. Are they not controlled by a thermostat? Won't a single heater make it more difficult to uniformly heat the space?
If the new heater is in an outside wall fishing the wire in the wall will be very difficult, running the wire behind the baseboard will require either a conduit to protect the wire or run the wire in the wall which requires removing and replacing the vapor barrier and insulation.


Not knowing your specific circumstances its hard to say, but you obviously have a lot of heat capacity with the existing baseboard set up. Its already installed and although its overkill, it only runs when its needed. You could possibly even turn off some of them. The new heater?? How many will be installed? Were you planning to remove the existing baseboard system? Where does the wiring come in to service those heaters? Lots more questions.

26ft of baseboards creates two problems. Yes, it is controlled by a thermostat, but when it is on, it is on full blast with about 5000 watts of power turning the room into one giant easy bake oven. The rule of thumb for electrical heating systems is 5-10w per sqft. One 2500 watt is about right since this is supplemental heat. I cn always add more heat in the future, if necessary. The other issue is that you need to keep 18 inches of clearance from the radiators. We have about 60 ft of wall that is not covered in built in book cases, doorways, or stairs. Having bout 50% of the room off limits or restricted use is a pain in the you know what. In the photo below, you can see that the baseboards take up most of the outside walls and extend behind the china cabinet.

The new unit I am using is roughly 3ft wide and will take up the space below a window.

The new heater is surface mount, not recessed. I did not want to damage the paneling any more than I have to.

Yes. All of the old units will be removed.

The electrical for the current system comes in at the corner where the radiators meet. Excuse the mess... I spend the day scrubbing the wall, caulking the seams between the boards, and filling holes and cracks. Hopefully, I will be ready for paint on Wednesday.

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[Matt Day]

Can you remove part of the existing to lessen the heat?

[Dan Mages]

Can you remove part of the existing to lessen the heat?

In theory, yes. I can remove some of the baseboards. This will leave the baseboards in the corner and not where they will be the most efficient at heating up the room. I would need to move the remaining baseboards to the middle of the room and once again dealing with the wiring issue.

[Tom Stenzel]

Hi Dan,

How many sections make up the 26' of baseboard heat? Could you disconnect some of the baseboards in the corner and just leave them in place? Use them to hide wiring like it does now.

Or is does one baseboard section just take up too much horizontal space? Or the number of sections needed take up too much space?

-Tom

[Dan Mages]

Hi Dan,

How many sections make up the 26' of baseboard heat? Could you disconnect some of the baseboards in the corner and just leave them in place? Use them to hide wiring like it does now.

Or is does one baseboard section just take up too much horizontal space? Or the number of sections needed take up too much space?

-Tom

There are two 8', one 6', and one 4' heaters. I can use the old units to hide the wires but I would prefer to replace them with a metal raceway.

The horizontal space is a major issue of the install. A 2' wide radiator style puts out the same heat as an 6' wide baseboard. If I need two units, then we are looking at 4' vs 12'. That is significant.

I was thinking about cutting open the bottom of the walll to run the wire along the sill plate, but I found what might be a touch of termite damage on the bottom of one of the boards.... I am leaving that one alone. Metal raceway then?

And then there is this big hole to deal with now.... Oy.

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[Tom Stenzel]

Is installing a molding around the bottom of the wall around the room a possibility? Then a channel could be routered into the back of it from the corner to where you need it to exit. When the old baseboard comes off there might be something to hide.

Edit: the wire needs to be large enough so that the lack of air circulation (trapped in a wooden channel) around it won't cause a heating problem. I don't know if there will be a code problem with it.

And on the Steibel Eltron page you listed the largest heater in the series is 2400 watt, the CNS-240-2E running at 240 volts. Will one be enough?

-Tom

[John Lanciani]

I was thinking about cutting open the bottom of the walll to run the wire along the sill plate, but I found what might be a touch of termite damage on the bottom of one of the boards.... I am leaving that one alone. Metal raceway then?


Are you planning on addressing the potential termite problem before you proceed? That discovery would put the brakes on hard if this were my project; no sense in doing any finish work if it needs to be torn out and repaired.

[Dan Mages]

Is installing a molding around the bottom of the wall around the room a possibility? Then a channel could be routered into the back of it from the corner to where you need it to exit. When the old baseboard comes off there might be something to hide.

Edit: the wire needs to be large enough so that the lack of air circulation (trapped in a wooden channel) around it won't cause a heating problem. I don't know if there will be a code problem with it.

And on the Steibel Eltron page you listed the largest heater in the series is 2400 watt, the CNS-240-2E running at 240 volts. Will one be enough?

-Tom
That is a possibility. I do not have baseboard in the room right now. In fact, I was thinking about using my circular saw to cut out the bottom 2.5"-3 of the paneling and plasterboard underneath so I could run the wire along the sill plate. I could then patch the wall and hide the butchery with new baseboard. As a bonus, I would have a piece of paneling to patch that hole in the wall.

I spoke with Steibel Eltron's earlier today. Tech support today. He calculated the BTUs needed to heat the space 15f and suggested that model. Also suggested I could use a 1500 watt unit under each window to better disperse the heat and to reduce load when I dont need that much power.



Are you planning on addressing the potential termite problem before you proceed? That discovery would put the brakes on hard if this were my project; no sense in doing any finish work if it needs to be torn out and repaired.


There are no known termite problems in the house. I have been under the watchful eye of an exterminator due to past problems. This is just old damage.

Dan

[Doug Garson]

Your description of how your system acts doesn't sound like its thermostatically controlled, sounds more like an on/off or variable output control. Do you set a temperature on it or a number like 1 to 10 or high to low? If you set the thermostat at say 60F and the thermostat is correctly located (so it measures average room temperature) and working properly then the room will be at 60F. Can't argue with the issue of the baseboard heaters affecting furniture placement. Don't think running the wire in a wooden channel would meet code as the wire wouldn't be protected if someone drove a nail in the channel. +1 on addressing the termite damage before proceeding.

[Dan Mages]

It is termostatically controlled in the sense that the thermostat determines when it turns on when the room hits a certain temperature. There is no volume control, sort of speak.

Dealing with the termines... I will let it be. The walls are solid and I cannot find the paneling in any lumber yard (I have tried). I would have to tear out the whole room and the built in cabinets to resolve the issue. I am not willing to go that far. I will patch the hole and call it done.

[Dan Mages]

I'm glad I'm installing the new heaters. Once I pulled out the old heaters and wiring, I found that the system had 4500watts, or 18 amps running on a 20amp breaker with 14awg wire. I also found some singed carpet next to a couple of the heaters. I have the new heaters installed with the wire in a raceway along the base of the floor. All I have left to do is pull the old breaker and wire in the new wires.

Dan