Kickback on a tablesaw yup its real

[Dave Macy]

Had a close one today. Piece came flying back right past my head. Gave me a nice bleed on the ear but it basically whizzed right by me. I'd heard about it, and always try to think about it but wow.

[Martin Wasner]

You're lucky to have survived I'm sure.

[Larry Frank]

Glad you are OK....would really like to hear all the details so we can learn from it.

[Bill Space]

Yes please do tell us the details!

I've been working word as a hobby for over 40 years and don't remember ever having a kickback that was of any significance, or even any at all.

But I really do like to learn from others experiences! Any and all details you can provide would be greatly appreciated by myself and many others and I am sure. Please don't hold back!

Bill

[Matt Day]

Details please! Feather boards? Push stick? Short or long piece?

[Dave Macy]

It was dumb and all my fault. I was cutting 1/4 strips of 6/4 walnut. I was down to about 1" of stock left, so was being careful I thought with my push stick. I was pushing with my left hand, staying to the right of the blade. The piece started to drift a bit from the fence, so I grabbed a spare piece with my left hand and moved my right to the push stick. In that second, not sure what happened, but the whole thing lifted up and flew right back. I don't have a riving knife or splitter and never heard of them until today. It's an old unisaw with no safety features. I was confident I was being careful but I guess not. I cleaned up and took the rest of the day off.

[Mike Manning]

Good lesson learned without significant injury. You got lucky today and we're all glad for that! Thanks for sharing.

[Joe Jensen]

A friend had a cut off catch on the blade and fly up into his face. He was wearing safety glasses but the chunk of wood pushed his glasses into his eye and he ended up with a partially detached retina. We both wear face shields now.

[John Lankers]

I'm happy for you it turned out this way and you didn't get seriously hurt. But make no mistake a riving knife or splitter is no guarantee against kickbacks either, however they reduce the risk significantly. If a piece of wood caught between the fence and the blade gets in contact with the rear teeth before being cleared, this usually happens with short pieces, it can turn into a deadly projectile. I had one penetrate 1/2" drywall once, what saved me was thatt I was standing on the left of the blade beside the sliding table of my saw, if it had been a traditional cabinet saw the outcome would have been different.
If you don't have a splitter, you can easily fabricate one either by cutting a slot in the insert right behind the blade and glue a thin piece of wood in that has the same thickness as the blade or commercially built plastic splitters available from Microjig.
We all need to be reminded every so often by posts like yours that we are vulnerable in one way or another when in the shop, thanks for posting.

[Vince Shriver]

First, glad you weren't hurt (that was a close one for you). However, you know now, first hand, thru the wisdom of "experience" what all the jabber regarding table saw safety is about.

[Larry Frank]

A riving knife is a great safety feature. I find that a Grippper by Micro Jig is great for cutting smaller pieces. It keeps your fingers away from the blade and you can control the pieces and avoid kick back.

[glenn bradley]

Glad that wasn't worse. Thanks for sharing it with us. We all need constant reminders on safety. It always the "just this once" things that lead us closer to an incident. If you make you own ZCI's you can easily put a splitter in or go after-market commercial.

349300

[Pat Barry]

It was dumb and all my fault. I was cutting 1/4 strips of 6/4 walnut. I was down to about 1" of stock left, so was being careful I thought with my push stick. I was pushing with my left hand, staying to the right of the blade. The piece started to drift a bit from the fence, so I grabbed a spare piece with my left hand and moved my right to the push stick. In that second, not sure what happened, but the whole thing lifted up and flew right back. I don't have a riving knife or splitter and never heard of them until today. It's an old unisaw with no safety features. I was confident I was being careful but I guess not. I cleaned up and took the rest of the day off.
I don't feel in control standing to the right of the blade and using my left hand to push. I'd much rather stand right in the line of fire and be aware and able to easily hit the power switch with my left hand if need be.

[Ole Anderson]

Glad you are Ok Dave. Lesson learned, I am sure.

Isn't it standard practice to stand to the left of the blade and use the right hand to push? And toss your pointy end push sticks, use one that holds the wood down so it can't tip up.

Here is my oops, pretty obvious that I tried to push a small square block through years ago, the worst scenario (learned my lessons). At least I was standing sorta to the left.

Now I have a Shark Guard with a splitter. Uncomfortable not using it anymore.

[Ole Anderson]

I don't feel in control standing to the right of the blade and using my left hand to push. I'd much rather stand right in the line of fire and be aware and able to easily hit the power switch with my left hand if need be.
You are a man cruising for a bruising, Pat. By the time you even think of reaching for the switch, the wood, if it missed you, is buried in the wall behind the TS. A smaller piece comes off the blade at over 100 mph and in the blink of an eye. I know.

[Robert Engel]

It happens just be glad you didn't get hurt worse. I take the time to do a "debriefing" focusing push blocks & featherboards & splitter and how to make that task safer. In your case, I think a splitter would have saved you. A push BLOCK (not a stick) that covers both off cut and save piece is the safest way to do this cut. You don't need to spend $$'s on fancy push jigs. I make mine of a piece of 2x4 and a 1" dowel for a handle cut the bottom to create a heal at the back. When its all chewed up, I just toss it an make another one.

I would suggest get all the stuff you need, set it up and do it again so that you do not have any fear about doing it again.

BTW, if the fence is on the right of the blade you should be pushing with your right hand and standing a bit to the left. I've heard of guys standing on the opposite side of the fence using the wrong hand to push. This is not proper technique using a TS. To me, they are just showing how scared they are of the machine.

There should always be some pressure against the fence. You can stand a bit to the left if kickback is a potential issue.

However, if you stand on the opposite side of the fence not only can you not see the wood/fence contact points, even worse, the tendency is to push the save away from the fence with more pressure into the blade. Even with a splitter this is not safe. Even worse, if something slipped, you could get a hand or finger in the blade.

[Rick Moyer]

Ouch, Ole! I'm with Pat though, It shouldn't matter which side as long as it's the SIDE, not in line with the blade. I feel I have much more control standing left of the blade and using whatever "push stick" device in my right hand. I get that maybe I'd get hit in the arm but with riving knife and better push sticks (like the one you pictured and the Gripper,too) I've not gotten close to a kickback. I seem to get more cautious the older I get. Pretty mindful of what could happen.

Dave, thanks for the reminder.

[Bill Adamsen]

I have an older Unisaw that I use for dadoes, rabbets, tenons and box joints ... so the riving knife isn't practical. But over the past year I have become a big fan of the knife on my slider. I'm pleasantly surprised at the amount of safety such a simple addition provides.

Just out of curiosity, what is required to add a riving knife to my older Unisaw, or any older saw like a Whitney 177 or Tannewitz XJ type saw?

[Rollie Kelly]

Bill, I was just on the OWWM site looking for info on a splitter for my Tanny U. Most of the time I use my feeder when ripping, however, there are times when it isn't practical. For these times I would like to have a riving knife. As soon as I clean my saw out, I'm going to see if I can cobble something together.
Rollie

[Joe Adams]

I recently had to rip a bunch of narrow, thin strips safely and became a big fan of Microjig's GRR-Riper 200. Not cheap but well worth the cost.

[John TenEyck]

Any saw that has a removable insert can be fitted with a splitter, as Glenn showed. The OP's incident is yet another reminder of why safety devices are important.

John

[Rod Sheridan]

Glad to hear that you weren't seriously hurt, here are a few considerations

1) riving knife or splitter, always use one

2) blade guard, always use one, if you can't, you're doing something you shouldn't, or you need a different guard design. This is normal procedure, not all guards are for all operations.

3) when ripping solid material the fence should end at the beginning of the blade, often the gullet is recommended as the furthest the fence should project. If you don't have a multifunction fence, make a 6" X 6" piece of plywood angle, as long as your fence with some solid edging. This can be clamped to your fence to make a low fence (allows push stick clearance) or can be used as a short fence for solid wood ripping.

4) deflector wedge if cutting small lengths or there are small offcuts produced.

Regards, Rod

[jack duren]

Welcome to the club.....

[Pat Barry]

You are a man cruising for a bruising, Pat. By the time you even think of reaching for the switch, the wood, if it missed you, is buried in the wall behind the TS. A smaller piece comes off the blade at over 100 mph and in the blink of an eye. I know.
Yes -- I'm thinking of buying some PPE to use with my tablesaw. I'm thinking if I dress like an old hockey goalie except use regular hockey glove on my pusher hand instead of a catchers mitt I'd be safe enough - maybe a tad uncomfortable in warmer weather, but thats a small price to pay

[Matt Day]

Regardless of riving knife or splitter, a simple featherboard helps a lot to keep material tight to the fence. I don't have a RK or anything and use a FB wherever possible

[Mike Manning]

You are a man cruising for a bruising, Pat. By the time you even think of reaching for the switch, the wood, if it missed you, is buried in the wall behind the TS. A smaller piece comes off the blade at over 100 mph and in the blink of an eye. I know.

Exactly my thoughts/experience Ole.

[Chris Hachet]

Regardless of riving knife or splitter, a simple featherboard helps a lot to keep material tight to the fence. I don't have a RK or anything and use a FB wherever possible

I find featherboards help immeasurably with cut quality also...

[Jim Becker]

Even though I am generally "out of the line of fire" for kickbacks on my slider, I still pay very careful attention to avoid it anyway. The velocity that the blade can fling a piece of material, regardless of size, can be a least...painful...and at most...deadly. It's essential that everyone insure that their saw is properly tuned up and aligned and to use safety accommodations like splitters or riving knives (the latter preferable) to reduce the instance of kickbacks to begin with and also take care in "where" they are physically relative to the cutting operation in progress. Some cuts benefit from hold-downs, too, whether via a good push-block or by mechanical means fastened to the fence. This is particularly true with thin materials that can lift with just the friction of the blade coming up at the back of the cut.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes -- I'm thinking of buying some PPE to use with my tablesaw. I'm thinking if I dress like an old hockey goalie except use regular hockey glove on my pusher hand instead of a catchers mitt I'd be safe enough - maybe a tad uncomfortable in warmer weather, but thats a small price to pay

LOL, that's some image you're generating Pat LOL.

It's exactly the wrong approach however.

The first approach is to remove the hazard, which in this case is the kickback event.

The simple, industry standard items I listed in my other comment will remove the hazard of kickback..................Regards, Rod.

[Pat Barry]

LOL, that's some image you're generating Pat LOL.

It's exactly the wrong approach however.

The first approach is to remove the hazard, which in this case is the kickback event.


The simple, industry standard items I listed in my other comment will remove the hazard of kickback..................Regards, Rod.
Ya, I said "line of fire" but that's not precisely correct.

I do stand left of the blade, push with my right hand using a push stick that also tends to hold the workpiece down against the table. I do feel that I try to push the material up against the fence as well with a tad bit of lateral pressure. I do at times use a second push stick, user side of the blade, to push the material to the fence (for narrow pieces). I have a Rigid saw with 1 1/2 HP motor. I can literally stall out the saw if the board binds up on the saw. This has happened more than once. I know that safety is job one with this tool having seen enough discussions like this, and the occasional video, plus one near miss of my very own.

[Dave Cav]

I'm glad you're ok. I had almost exactly the same kickback about 20 years ago. It cost me stitches in my upper lip and forehead, and I was lucky not to lose an eye. I was using a fairly new Delta contractor saw with a jet lock fence and no splitter. I was making oak 1x1" strips. One second I was sawing and the next second I was sitting on the floor bleeding. I learned my lesson. Splitter, PPE, properly adjusted fence, proper body placement, "shoe" type push stick. Oh, and short rips get cut on the bandsaw.

[Nick Decker]

It happens just be glad you didn't get hurt worse. I take the time to do a "debriefing" focusing push blocks & featherboards & splitter and how to make that task safer. In your case, I think a splitter would have saved you. A push BLOCK (not a stick) that covers both off cut and save piece is the safest way to do this cut. You don't need to spend $$'s on fancy push jigs. I make mine of a piece of 2x4 and a 1" dowel for a handle cut the bottom to create a heal at the back. When its all chewed up, I just toss it an make another one.

I would suggest get all the stuff you need, set it up and do it again so that you do not have any fear about doing it again.

BTW, if the fence is on the right of the blade you should be pushing with your right hand and standing a bit to the left. I've heard of guys standing on the opposite side of the fence using the wrong hand to push. This is not proper technique using a TS. To me, they are just showing how scared they are of the machine.

There should always be some pressure against the fence. You can stand a bit to the left if kickback is a potential issue.

However, if you stand on the opposite side of the fence not only can you not see the wood/fence contact points, even worse, the tendency is to push the save away from the fence with more pressure into the blade. Even with a splitter this is not safe. Even worse, if something slipped, you could get a hand or finger in the blade.

I disagree, partly because I'm left handed and am more comfortable and precise with that hand. I don't feel a tendency to push the board away from the fence, on the contrary, I'm very conscious of pulling the board toward the fence. It also places all of my body out of the direct line of fire.

I've also installed an emergency off switch on that side of the saw, not for kickback situations but for situations when I might need to shut down in the middle of a cut (it happens). I don't think this is showing fear of the saw, just leaving myself an escape route.

[Michael Koons]

I'm a lefty as well Nick and I agree with you. Since I use a slider, I'm to the left of the slider and therefore left of the blade and no where near the blade at any point 90% of the time. The only time I'm right of the blade is when I'm ripping something too narrow to use the slider. When I do that, I'm right of the blade and fence so my left hand can be in control. I think it has more to do with my "left handedness" than any fear of the tool.

[Simon MacGowen]

You were lucky!

If the fence is set up probably, with a splitter or riving knife in use, the best way to avoid kick up is to use a Grr-ripper or a shop-made equivalent. Those long, narrow push sticks are the worst accomplices in causing kickbacks. Use a push shoe if you have got nothing better.

Simon

[Peter Aeschliman]

Not to one-up the OP, but here's what happens when you're not so lucky.

As I warned at the top of the thread, the pictures are not for the faint of heart!

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?170208-Kickback-Hurts!-(WARNING!-GORY-PICTURES!!)&highlight=gory

[Andrew Pitonyak]

It was dumb and all my fault. I was cutting 1/4 strips of 6/4 walnut. I was down to about 1" of stock left, so was being careful I thought with my push stick. I was pushing with my left hand, staying to the right of the blade. The piece started to drift a bit from the fence, so I grabbed a spare piece with my left hand and moved my right to the push stick. In that second, not sure what happened, but the whole thing lifted up and flew right back. I don't have a riving knife or splitter and never heard of them until today. It's an old unisaw with no safety features. I was confident I was being careful but I guess not. I cleaned up and took the rest of the day off.

When it happened to me, I bought an MJ Splitter, you really need something. Easy to use and install. Here is one example:

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/845404/micro-jig-18-kerf-steelpro-mj-splitter-kit-blue.aspx

Choose one based on the width of your blade. I eventually purchased a newer saw with all those new cool safety features and have not had a kickback since; not that you can't get one, but it makes it easier to not have one.

I even had a piece of wood kick back out of my surface planer and it poked a hole in my utility sink. Very small piece of wood traveling very fast. The kickback on my previous table saw hit me in the gut and left a nice bruise. That was when I stopped using my table saw and started studying up on how to use a table saw since I knew literally nothing about how to use them or safety with them. It is also about when I joined this forum. Can't say I am an expert, but I have a healthy fear of the tools.

[Roy Turbett]

I disagree, partly because I'm left handed and am more comfortable and precise with that hand. I don't feel a tendency to push the board away from the fence, on the contrary, I'm very conscious of pulling the board toward the fence. It also places all of my body out of the direct line of fire.

I've also installed an emergency off switch on that side of the saw, not for kickback situations but for situations when I might need to shut down in the middle of a cut (it happens). I don't think this is showing fear of the saw, just leaving myself an escape route.

I'm right handed and haven't experienced the awkwardness of using my non dominant hand to rip on a table saw. I'm curious as to whether lefties with Biesmeyer style fences commonly position the fence to the left of the blade while standing to the right.

[Rick Potter]

I have an older Unisaw also. When I got my kickback epiphany, I was fortunate to have a bruised groin for several weeks, but no more damage.

My first act was to buy an aftermarket Beisemeyer splitter for the saw. Not as good as a riving knife, but it would have stopped my situation. To my knowlege, you cannot buy an aftermarket riving knife.

Plus one to all the suggestions about push sticks. The pic by Ole, is my go to for most things. I just used my hand saw handle as a guide and traced out a pattern, making several handles out of good plywood (no grain direction to split) routed all the appropriate edges and put a tall enough bottom on it so when it gets cut up I can slice it off and start over about three times.

The one push stick I rarely use is the common long and narrow one that you hold on one end. It is just too easy to put too much pressure on the single point of contact and make small pieces lift up or shift. When doing narrow strips, and just pushing with this kind of stick, the wind from the blade will lift the strip and start the reaction you are familiar with.

[Wes Ramsey]

Sometimes you get kickback even when doing everything right. Or mostly everything. This spring I was making some repeated dado cuts so my blade guard was off. I was setting the finished pieces on the other side of the fence where they wouldn't be in the way. After 8-10 cuts I bumped the stack of boards, which tumbled toward me and landed on the blade. One piece hit me in the chest before I could get out of the way, but they were large and slow enough to do no more than knock the wind out of me.

And now the table saw is free of clutter while I'm working.

[Nick Decker]

I don't move the fence left of the blade, simply because then I'd be standing in the path of the cut off when feeding with my left hand. I'm comfortable doing it the way I am.


I'm right handed and haven't experienced the awkwardness of using my non dominant hand to rip on a table saw. I'm curious as to whether lefties with Biesmeyer style fences commonly position the fence to the left of the blade while standing to the right.

[Justin Ludwig]

I probably operate my TS in a questionable manner sometimes - especially compared to how every preaches safe practices here, but I never stand in the line of fire unless breaking down sheets of ply. I can't stand right of the fence and use left hand to push. Feels too awkward. Glad you're ok. I've been hit in the butt (because I turned) by a large 1/4ply back of cabinet when it spun around the blade because I had the blade way too high. That was in my first year of operating a TS. I've had a couple other small kickbacks but was always clear of the line of fire.

I've heard plenty of shavings and pieces hit my over-arm guard and DC shroud. I hate operating the saw without that down over the blade.

[Wayne Lomman]

Coming in a bit late on this but table saws with no riving knife? I have worked in shops that were so old the machines were flat belt driven but they all had original equipment riving knives. My father's boss was fined in 1936 for a safety breach like this when dad lost a finger tip.

I also question the validity of standing to the right of the saw when operating it, left handers excepted or when ripping a wide board on a slider. Use a solid guard and correct riving knife and stand just to the left out of the line of fire.

The only injury I have seen in my shops was when one guy removed a riving knife for no known reason. The timber split and drove back into his thigh. We had to bandage his leg and cut off the end of the six foot splinter so he could fit into the car to get him to a clinic.

So please everyone, get a riving knife and a solid guard that can be easily adjusted. And use decent notched end push sticks. Cheers

[Jim Becker]

Wayne, most "North American" design table saws didn't employ riving knives until relatively recently. They came from the factory with a splitter/guard system, but unlike a true riving knife that moves with the blade, those devices had to be removed to facilitate a non-through cut...and once removed, many folks never reinstalled them since it was not a quick change process in most cases. It's not easy to retrofit a saw not designed for a riving knife to have one. There have been a few aftermarket products that provided it for some specific saw models, but nothing universal. So people add things like short splitters embedded in the table insert behind the blade to help reduce kickback from pinching, but it's still not as effective as a true riving knife and not employable on bevel cuts, either. My Euro slider has a true riving knife and I absolutely appreciate it for sure!

[lowell holmes]

I use Glen Bradley's splitter on my tables saw. I also use a push stick and stand to one side so that if kickback does occur, it will not hit me.

I only experience kick back when trying to rip short pieces. I do not rip short pieces anymore.

I have not had a kickback recently.

[Steve Demuth]

I do not rip short pieces anymore.

Not with a rip-fence and and push stick for sure. Sometime ago I built a sled that allows me to clamp small pieces firmly to the sled against the equivalent of a rip fence. I guess it's more or less the equivalent of a slider. The mass of the sled and the immobility of the piece vis-a-vis the fence makes things SO much safer.

[William Fretwell]

I've had my share of kickbacks; bruises on thigh, punches in the gut. Most were my fault. Ripping heavy stock that is not quite flat is asking for trouble.
My saw is 240V so I installed two super fast fuses one on each half of the circuit (they are glass pre-tensioned screw in). When it binds the power is instantly cut and reduces the kickback substantially. They cost $2.00 each. Sometimes only one half blows sometimes both. I keep lots on hand. You have to experiment to find the amperage that still lets you work. This only works for thick stock but I love it. Money well spent.

A leather apron, eye protection and standing in the right spot are essential. The riving knife can be essential at times.

[Warren Lake]

wow a Mcgiver sawstop :)

[Dave Macy]

The micro jig setup arrived tonight via UPS so I'll put it in tomorrow. Thanks everyone. Also got my last round of bandsaw parts, so tomorrow is do or die with that thing lol.

[Merritt Conner]

I just stumbled across this topic, very interesting since we just had a "Kick-back" accident in our plastics shop. During the investigation we found it was a common practice to not use knives, feather boards, or even push sticks. :eek: One of my recommendations was to get rid of the table saw all together, and replace it with a vertical panel saw and compound miter saw. The recommendation was not met well by the plastics group who claimed "Kick-back" is common and you just need to be careful. I come from a CNC background, so am I missing something regarding the benefits of a table saw over a panel saw? The shop mainly deals with straight cut 48x96x0.25 polypro sheets.

[Martin Wasner]

so am I missing something regarding the benefits of a table saw over a panel saw? The shop mainly deals with straight cut 48x96x0.25 polypro sheets.


Two reasons. Versatility and cost.

Panel saws are good for cutting up sheet goods and that's about it. Pretty tough to process lumber on one.

A good panel saw is almost $30k new, the majority of the users of this website are hobbyists.




Kickbacks only happen when you are doing something stupid. Fact. Sorry. Material tight to the deck, tight to the fence and it doesn't happen.

[Steve Demuth]

Kickbacks only happen when you are doing something stupid. Fact. Sorry. Material tight to the deck, tight to the fence and it doesn't happen.

I disagree, and would go so far as to say there is a dangerous arrogance in believing what you say. I haven't had a kick-back in some years, and that is indeed due to thinking, following rules, and executing carefully with the saw. But I would never say kick-back "doesn't happen" to me. Just by way of example, a couple of weeks ago I was finishing breaking down some white ash lumber for a furniture project. I'd made dozens of cuts, none of which suggested the wood was anything but rock-solid stable - it was like machining a manufactured material - hardly unexpected in well-seasoned ash, but still a joy to work with. And then with no external indication of what was about to happen, I ripped a 3' piece that was not stable. I didn't get a kickback, but I got a badly burned cut and had to shutdown mid-cut when the trapped portion of the rip bowed strongly into the blade. I finished the cut on the bandsaw, and when done, the board had 3/32" bow along it's length.

This time, I did not experience a kick-back, but that was more luck than planning - all the ingredients were there, and not predictable, and not controllable by just keeping the wood tight on the deck and fence. Wood will do things like that, and wood combined with steel spinning at high speed will occasionally surprise even the best among us. You can bet I've been a bit more careful than usual about where I stand relative to the blade and board in the last few weeks.

[jack duren]

The only way you can truly guaranteed 100% that you can't get hurt on a table saw is to not use at all. Power it up and the percentage goes down...

[Merritt Conner]

The conclusions I drew from my investigation were very similar to Steve's comments. The combination of fence, blade, and friction (table surface) will always create the potential for kickback. The use of proper safeguards and an abundance of caution will only mitigate the conditions for kickback, but not eliminate them. It occured to me the easiest way to prevent kick back is to move the cutter tool through material rather then the other way around. Like I said I am from the CNC world. ;) In agreement with Martin's comments, the more methods used to eliminate kick-back, the higher the tooling cost, which in turn pushes those safeguards out of the cost realm of the typical hobbyist. In that case kick back can only then be prevented by increased use of safe practices by the operator.
Overall I am amazed how acceptable "kick-back" is. To back that comment up, I have made a habit of looking at walls and tools directly behind any table saw (professional and hobbyist) I see now, you would be amazed how much evidence of "kick-back" you will find. Great thread, sorry if I high jacked the original intent.

[Joel Wesseling]

Thanks to this thread I have reinstalled my riving knife. Now I have more power transfer to the blades teeth and no power lost from the blades surface. Of course it's safer as well. Thanks! Not sure why I removed it in the first place.

I have one issue. Maybe someone has a suggestion. I was cutting inch and one quarter thick hard maple, five inch wide boards. I'm ripping these in half but part way through the pressure of the maple on riving knife is so great that I cant push any more and complete the cut. The good thing is that the blade spins without resistance with the wood stuck in the riving knife.
So what do I have here? The riving knife is to thick? Should I try wax. I had no problem with 1/2" maple and 2" oak.

[Jim Becker]

Joel, what you describe is probably the result of the maple "pinching" the riving knife as stress is relieved by the cut. In other words, it's most likely the specific piece of wood, not the saw. That can be because of improper drying, uneven drying or stress while the wood was "still on the hoof"...

[John Sincerbeaux]

I disagree, and would go so far as to say there is a dangerous arrogance in believing what you say. I haven't had a kick-back in some years, and that is indeed due to thinking, following rules, and executing carefully with the saw. But I would never say kick-back "doesn't happen" to me. Just by way of example, a couple of weeks ago I was finishing breaking down some white ash lumber for a furniture project. I'd made dozens of cuts, none of which suggested the wood was anything but rock-solid stable - it was like machining a manufactured material - hardly unexpected in well-seasoned ash, but still a joy to work with. And then with no external indication of what was about to happen, I ripped a 3' piece that was not stable. I didn't get a kickback, but I got a badly burned cut and had to shutdown mid-cut when the trapped portion of the rip bowed strongly into the blade. I finished the cut on the bandsaw, and when done, the board had 3/32" bow along it's length.

This time, I did not experience a kick-back, but that was more luck than planning - all the ingredients were there, and not predictable, and not controllable by just keeping the wood tight on the deck and fence. Wood will do things like that, and wood combined with steel spinning at high speed will occasionally surprise even the best among us. You can bet I've been a bit more careful than usual about where I stand relative to the blade and board in the last few weeks.

I don't think Martin's comment was any more "arrogant" than many "ignorant" posts on this thread that imply if you're not using a splitter and a guard you're operating dangerously.

[Joel Wesseling]

Joel, what you describe is probably the result of the maple "pinching" the riving knife as stress is relieved by the cut. In other words, it's most likely the specific piece of wood, not the saw. That can be because of improper drying, uneven drying or stress while the wood was "still on the hoof"...

Thanks, Jim.

Still having same issue with some boards - 7/8" maple as well, and have to use jig saw to finish ripping them.

Anyway, have to live with this until I come up with a better way around it.

[Jim Becker]

Joel, is this with the same blade as you used for the thinner material? If not, perhaps the blade you are using for the thicker material is slightly narrower than the riving knife... If it's the same blade, and the riving knife is co-planer with the blade, it's almost got to be the material.

[Joel Wesseling]

I'm using the same blade for all different wood and the blade is co-planer with riving knife.

It is the wood. After I remove the half ripped board from the riving knife the cut gap tightly closes at the boards end.
All the wood is rough lumber that I purchased from local, and dressed at home.

I suppose I would use a band saw(when I get one) with nasty pieces, cut a little wide, and trim off thin piece with table saw.

[Jim Becker]

Bummer. At the very least, you're going to have to rip that lumber wide and then dress on the jointer and planer to get things usable if that's possible. Clearly, it's stressed or has a major moisture imbalance. Try working with the shortest pieces you can get away with, too.

[Steve Demuth]

John,

You're entitled to your point of view, but if you honestly believe what Martin wrote - that "Kickbacks only happen when you are doing something stupid." - you're going way out on a limb about a lot of good, competent people. Kick-back is indeed made far more likely by poor practice, but good practice does not eliminate the possibility. You've got a material that is not entirely predictable, and are working with forces and timing that exceed what you can control when things go South. Humility is called for in these situations.

This is not limited to table saws, BTW. I work in my day job with surgeons and anesthesiologists that are among the best in the world. Their skills and attention to detail is astounding, and they have process checks to verify that they don't overlook anything known to be an issue (that is, they don't do stupid things at all often). Their results are the envy of their peers. But they still lose from time to time in cases where the wrong set of circumstances come together. The reason is basically the same - unpredictable material, and forces we can't fully control.

[John Sincerbeaux]

John,

You're entitled to your point of view, but if you honestly believe what Martin wrote - that "Kickbacks only happen when you are doing something stupid." - you're going way out on a limb about a lot of good, competent people. Kick-back is indeed made far more likely by poor practice, but good practice does not eliminate the possibility. You've got a material that is not entirely predictable, and are working with forces and timing that exceed what you can control when things go South. Humility is called for in these situations.

This is not limited to table saws, BTW. I work in my day job with surgeons and anesthesiologists that are among the best in the world. Their skills and attention to detail is astounding, and they have process checks to verify that they don't overlook anything known to be an issue (that is, they don't do stupid things at all often). Their results are the envy of their peers. But they still lose from time to time in cases where the wrong set of circumstances come together. The reason is basically the same - unpredictable material, and forces we can't fully control.


Steve,
reread my quote. All I said was Martin's quote was not any more out of line then guys who say rather imphatically, you're not safe if you're not using a blade guard and or splitter. I certainly would of chosen different words then Martin but I think his premise is you don't need those items to be completely safe and to that I totally agree.

Of course we can draw parallels from woodworking to ALL aspects of life. I grew up in a medical profession family. Some of my best friends are surgeons. These guys are some of the smartest guys I know. That being said, there is no other profession on the planet that is more regulated, more scrutinized, or more unforgiving of mistakes than my mine. As an airline captain, safety is the center of everything I do. Ironically, I learned how to safely use a tablesaw before I ever flew a plane.

I think the highest risk guys are guys who were never trained how to use a tablesaw, go out and buy one, and try to figure it out as they go?

Merry Christmas to all

[Steve Demuth]

John,

All fair, and rereading the exchange, I don't disagree with your original point.

I would say that anyone using a tool as powerful and inherently dangerous as a tablesaw without training, or at minimum, reading the safety manual and following the rules, is indeed putting themselves at needless risk. The combination of a proper built in riving knife along with the Sawstop technology makes the saw a couple of orders less likely to cause significant harm, but you still need to use it right to be truly safe.

But ... since you're a commercial pilot, I have a barely on topic question if you care to take time to answer - there are concerns we are exploring in medicine about technologies that do too much for the operator, to the point where we may end up with less knowledgeable and skillful physicians because of their dependence on the technology. This manifests itself, for example, in cardiologists who have become dependant on echocardiograms to confidently diagnose almost any structural heart disease, whereas older practitioners confidently diagnose many based on their physical exam of the patient. Do you see this in flying as well? Obviously, when flying a large airliner, you are inherently operating a mechanical device - you're not going to move the control surfaces on a 777 by human force alone, but does the increasing automation between the pilot and controls, and then again between the controls and the control surfaces and engines, make pilots less effective as pilots?

[Dan Barr]

I was splitting/resawing tall thin (3") pieces of wenge (with a pushstick and the splitter attached), shot back like a rail gun! Luckily i was standing to the side. Lesson learned. Dont do tall and thin on a tablesaw. Use a bandsaw.