How do older toolmakers/craftsmen pass on their knowledge?

[Matt Lau]

I've been thinking a lot about the meaning of life and what I do.

I'm deeply committed to doing dentistry that is beautiful and will outlast me (goldwork, full mouth analysis, etc)--but it's quickly becoming a dying art because it costs more, is harder to do, and is less profitable. At took me a few years out of school to find an older guy, and another year to beg him to teach me the old ways. Over a period of 5-6 years, I've been looking over his shoulders on Sunday afternoons as he's doing his labwork.


I'm sure that there are other professions like that, but it seems super rare.

One thing that I'm curious about is, how do older toolmakers/craftsmen pass on their skills?

Is there a formal apprenticeship system (like Japan)?
Is there a way to ensure demand, so that these artisans can support themselves?

[Jim Koepke]

I've been thinking a lot about the meaning of life and what I do.

I'm deeply committed to doing dentistry that is beautiful and will outlast me (goldwork, full mouth analysis, etc)--but it's quickly becoming a dying art because it costs more, is harder to do, and is less profitable. At took me a few years out of school to find an older guy, and another year to beg him to teach me the old ways. Over a period of 5-6 years, I've been looking over his shoulders on Sunday afternoons as he's doing his labwork.


I'm sure that there are other professions like that, but it seems super rare.

One thing that I'm curious about is, how do older toolmakers/craftsmen pass on their skills?

Is there a formal apprenticeship system (like Japan)?
Is there a way to ensure demand, so that these artisans can support themselves?

Many professions are like that. Technology has done away with things like photographic processes we used to know. We do not have a proliferation of print shops like we did a half century ago. Do you remember when every gas station also had mechanics? Pattern makers are going extinct.

Many wish there were ways to ensure or increase demand. In my experience at the farmer's market everyone expects a discount. They do not even want to pay Ikea prices for hand made furniture. They do not see a hand crafted piece of furniture. They are looking for a place to set their cold beer while endlessly watching football.

Something a great radio host once quoted: "Make something that appeals to the upper classes and you will live with the masses. Make something that appeals to the masses and you will live among the upper classes."

jtk

[Matt McCormick]

I've been thinking a lot about the meaning of life and what I do.

One thing that I'm curious about is, how do older toolmakers/craftsmen pass on their skills?

Is there a formal apprenticeship system (like Japan)?
Is there a way to ensure demand, so that these artisans can support themselves?

As an old toolmaker...... A surgical instrument maker/R&D machinist. I have done R&D for 45 years, In the last 20 years I have worked in a University setting. I was asked to train a replacement, So at first I tried to teach things to helpers, people who had taken classes at a trade school and said they wanted to learn what I knew..... long story short.... they wanted the wages of a instrument maker. They did not want to spend the time to study books and learn off the clock. I made them good machinists..... but was not able to make them "craftsmen". I don't really know how to define "craftsman" but they weren't craftsman. They did a job and after they were taught.... they did a good job. But the intangible is they were doing the job..... they did not see them selves as craftsmen. They could not see the "profit" in spending time and money to be better at their job when they did it pretty well already. Up till a few years ago I made over 6 figures and got calls for job offers from all over the world...... then it stopped. Economics..... it no longer pays to find or train people like me..... It now costs about $250k to outfit a small shop at minimum, and $50+ per hour for a one man R&D shop.
I think in my case, in the medical device industry, guy s like me(I know of four, and they are much better than me)just can't be found. Many companies have laid off complete divisions that did R&D.
Management did not understand the real value of a person that can talk to a surgeon and solve a problem that they have..... because that is what educated engineers do, and some are very good at that. But again the craftsman part is understanding a whole process..... not doing just the design, machining and putting a pretty finish on the part. A craftsman does that...... and has studied the problem and understands what the part does, who uses it and what it needs to do and how well and how long it need s to do it. Many of the people who are here are Artisans..... You make art and Artists are a whole nother breed of cat...... One of the things that people never expected from me was the speed at which I could make things.... But I understood something that does elude some in the trade..... My job was to do my job..... in my case make instruments for retina surgery.....to get something in the OR as fast as possible, Some of the smallest hand tools in the world..... Forceps and scissors and even small cutters and grinders that fit in a .017 inch dia. needle so the parts were indeed small but had to robust and had to do the job..... pretty and shiny were extra work not needed and even a detriment to the performance. I tried to give advise to people who heard of me and asked for help in learning....... but the frustration in trying to explain my techniques to someone who actually just wants to make the money is a level of frustration I no longer will attempt....... What I know is not magic or some super power.... just wanting to be good at what I do and I paid the price, lot's of money on books, a class when I could...... Doing what I was told when someone was teaching me how to do something - even when I knew how I would do it(this is hard for many of us).
Well I guess I could write a book here about my opinion..... but to answer your question..... I my experience it is hard to pass along something that cannot be understood or pass along something that takes a lot of time and effort but does not result in more money. I now teach at a University of California Engineering School..... I have been here 2 years and of the 150 or so seniors in my senior design class I would be generous in saying 2 would be able to be taught how to be a "craftsman".
The world can do without craftsmen..... someday they will be back, because men will always have a need to expand their capability and understanding. But our world at this time seems to be unable to see the value..... and few are willing to pay the price.

I wrote this yesterday and thought about this all night..... I am not sure that what we call craftsmanship can be taught, let alone be understood. My definician is different from my old German maestros who tried to teach me..... I needed to embrace new technology that they feared (Cad/Cam) just like I now fear 3D metal printing( I am working with a professor and a company to understand how to make metal printing better)...... But no one is going to teach you how to be George Wilson, You could spend every hour for the next 10 years following George..... But unless you start to desire to make only the best, and will only settle for the best you can do can you come close..... But I don't think that can be taught, no matter how cool we think it would be to be George. I would bet Georges life is consumed with being a Craftsman not George being a Craftsman a few hours a week. And about craftsmen passing on what they know...... it is a great joy to work with someone who gets it....... and a absolute nightmare working with someone who doesn't and so much I choose to not even try anymore. I gladly help out someone who is trying on their own..... But someone that just shows up and wants to just absorb all I know...... They may be well meaning but they have no Idea what they are asking.
I am sorry my reply is so disjointed and hard to read.... I make things I don't write things...... -matt

[Dave Anderson NH]

Great post Matt. I think you hit the essence of the problem. In short it is all about attitude, desire, and commitment, something that can't be either learned or taught. Unfortunately it is not just in the fields of "craftsmanship" that we have to deal with this problem. We will always have craftsmen, but it seems the modern world makes the numbers diminish as time rolls along. We live in a world glorifying instant gratification and an expectation that skills should come without pain.

[Derek Cohen]

Thank you Matt.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ray Selinger]

I served an apprenticeship in carpentry, not the house side, that's just dumb framers, but the formwork. Cabinetry takes more hand skill but a good deal less knowledge. I'm an agreeable sort so the boss would partner me with every ornery old carpenter to pick up his tricks. I bought the books and studied them .After four years I wrote my interprovincial exam and got my Red Seal. It takes 70% to pass, I got 85%. The powers to be decided us tradesmen were making too much money and broke the union. Anybody with a hammer and a tool belt could be a carpenter. At the wages they chose to pay. All that knowledge I so painfully gained will be buried with me. If you are not going to pay for it you don't deserve it. Your doctor did 6 years, I did 4.

You have to go down that road by yourself forever inventing the wheel.

[Jim Koepke]

I am sorry my reply is so disjointed and hard to read.... I make things I don't write things...... -matt

It was well said and made sense to me. There are too many people who claim they can do anything who are in reality capable of almost nothing.

All to many in my work experience were always looking for the shortcut, many were trying to get the work over so they could take a break. A few of us were always looking for the better way. When everyone gets the same pay the only reason to do any better is one's own personal passion to do the best they can.

jtk

[William Adams]

Well, I guess it'll fall out in the following ways:

- some information / techniques will be preserved and passed down directly
- some information will be written down and correctly revived as techniques (some will be misunderstood, see below)
- some techniques will be reconstructed based on research
- the rest will be lost

Still very sad about an old engraver I had occasion to encounter who had a tiny office in the Empire State Building, but couldn't find an apprentice, and a furniture maker who presented to a college class, but couldn't convince a fellow classmate to take up as his apprentice (the kid chose to be a sign painter instead). I've tried to learn everything I could from everyone I've ever had occasion to meet / work with --- some of it my son is interested in, and a cousin's husband asked after my having any planes or chisels I could spare, so am working up a care package for him now, the rest I'm hoping I'll write down or pass on somehow.

[michael langman]

Matt, Being a toolmaker for many years and doing R&D, and tool and die work for a company from Bridgeport, Ct., that made and developed non invasive surgical implements, I truly understand where you are coming from.

I doubt that I am at the level that you and George are, but I did the work that most toolmakers could not do, and rested at night with the satisfaction that I did what I was born to do. I went to bed early and got up early with a clear mind and the determination to do the next task at hand with no other thing in mind. Not like the fellow toolmakers that came in with hangovers and what ever every day, and exalted in the fact that they were one of the few

It was in my blood from birth, and is understood by few.

[Bill White]

I have never met someone from whom I couldn't learn something. SOMETHING is the word here. It might not be much, but it is a learned item.
I have tried to teach, and those who WANT to learn are the receptors. Big difference.
Can't teach a pig to fly!!!
Great subject BTW.
Bill

[paul cottingham]

You know, I just look to the popularity of shows like Mythbusters and I'm heartened. I know many would say it's just because of the explosions, but I also believe it was because of their cleverness and ability to fabricate. I would cite as evidence the outcry after the "build team" of Tory Grant and Kari was axed (and the subsequent cancellation 2 seasons later) of the popularity of problem solving and building on the show.

i mean, seriously those folks could build something out of anything. They still can, the "build team" has a new show and they do some fabrication on it, where their skills as fabricator still shine.

[Patrick Chase]

One thing that I'm curious about is, how do older toolmakers/craftsmen pass on their skills?

By going on Internet fora and telling everybody else that they're doing it wrong?

EDIT: Being serious, I think Matt hit the nail on the head. I've seen similar problems in my own discipline, especially as it became widely recognized as a potential path to quick riches. The people who are "in it for the money" don't have the same underlying intellectual curiosity, and it shows.

[Jim Koepke]

The people who are "in it for the money" don't have the same underlying intellectual curiosity, and it shows.

Sadly the people who are interested in a job "for the money" can be a disaster in any workplace.

jtk

[michael langman]

Patrick, What you said is so true, and it only takes a few minutes to be able to tell the difference between the two.

[Frederick Skelly]

I am sorry my reply is so disjointed and hard to read.... I make things I don't write things...... -matt

Matt, your post wasn't disjointed or hard to read. I thought it was interesting and want to thank you for taking the time to write it out for us.

Best regards,
Fred

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

I am sorry my reply is so disjointed and hard to read.... I make things I don't write things...... -matt


Lots of good stuff here, but I think this hits the proverbial nail. I imagine I'm younger--31--than some of you, but I think that you're mostly correct in observing that people my age (and younger) are less likely to be truly invested in the craft and more likely to be interested in money. Without getting into reasons for that, I will say that there are a handful of men and women my age who do more or less live for craftsmanship, and would have taken the first chance they got for a legitimate apprenticeship with a master. But, times being what they are, such was never afforded. I personally took the easiest and most available route to knowledge I could, as did many of my friends--a route which I think is still relatively novel--in reading and collecting as much literature as was available through the internet. Much of which was old books. And though old books have long been available, the internet (including forums like this) has made it infinitely easier to sift through, collate, and save the worthwhile. And the internet is basically what taught me woodworking.

And this is the most striking part of your post, to me. Often, the people who have the most to write down simply don't, because they're not writers. If they were writers, they'd have less to write down. And, as others have pointed out, we appear to no longer live in an age where "old" knowledge is highly valued, and sought for record. As whacky as the idea is, I hope anyone with that "old" understanding will continue to spit out as much of it as possible in places like these. I'll probably never know any of you, and have no idea what you're like, but I'd rather sort through a wall of poorly edited text from an old-timer and find the smallest bit of gold than watch another sharpening thread devolve into the muck.

[Frederick Skelly]

Lots of good stuff here, but I think this hits the proverbial nail. I imagine I'm younger--31--than some of you, but I think that you're mostly correct in observing that people my age (and younger) are less likely to be truly invested in the craft and more likely to be interested in money. Without getting into reasons for that, I will say that there are a handful of men and women my age who do more or less live for craftsmanship, and would have taken the first chance they got for a legitimate apprenticeship with a master. But, times being what they are, such was never afforded. I personally took the easiest and most available route to knowledge I could, as did many of my friends--a route which I think is still relatively novel--in reading and collecting as much literature as was available through the internet. Much of which was old books. And though old books have long been available, the internet (including forums like this) has made it infinitely easier to sift through, collate, and save the worthwhile. And the internet is basically what taught me woodworking.

And this is the most striking part of your post, to me. Often, the people who have the most to write down simply don't, because they're not writers. If they were writers, they'd have less to write down. And, as others have pointed out, we appear to no longer live in an age where "old" knowledge is highly valued, and sought for record. As whacky as the idea is, I hope anyone with that "old" understanding will continue to spit out as much of it as possible in places like these. I'll probably never know any of you, and have no idea what you're like, but I'd rather sort through a wall of poorly edited text from an old-timer and find the smallest bit of gold than watch another sharpening thread devolve into the muck.

Interesting points Joel. Some things I hadnt thought about.

Question: One big point that George, Steve and others make regularly is the need to go out to your shop and MAKE something. It sounds like you are self-taught. Are you doing enough of hands-on to feel like you are actually able to apply what you've read? (Im one who learns by reading, then trying, then reading and asking questions, then trying again.)

"I'd rather sort through a wall of poorly edited text from an old-timer and find the smallest bit of gold than watch another sharpening thread devolve into the muck." Definitely a +1 for me. :D

Fred

[Mike Allen1010]

[
QUOTE=Matt Lau;2632510]I've been thinking a lot about the meaning of life and what I do.

I'm deeply committed to doing dentistry that is beautiful and will outlast me (goldwork, full mouth analysis, etc)--but it's quickly becoming a dying art because it costs more, is harder to do, and is less profitable. At took me a few years out of school to find an older guy, and another year to beg him to teach me the old ways. Over a period of 5-6 years, I've been looking over his shoulders on Sunday afternoons as he's doing his labwork.

I'm sure that there are other professions like that, but it seems super rare.

One thing that I'm curious about is, how do older toolmakers/craftsmen pass on their skills?

Is there a formal apprenticeship system (like Japan)?
Is there a way to ensure demand, so that these artisans can support themselves?
[/QUOTE]


Excellent post Matt, thanks for raising such provocative, existential questions! IMHO, they're particularly relevant for a community like SMC; interested in an ancient craft, that today's society in particular, has determined to have relatively little economic value.


Great question - Why would anyone approach their work in a way that is < optimally financially rewarded by the free market economic laws of supply and demand? Do those people perceive a value in how they approach their work that's not defined by their financial compensation?


Perhaps the analogy I'm about to make about these questions isn't directly applicable to how one chooses to approach their profession, but in an effort to put them in the context of SMC; I wonder what % of the "reward" my fellow Creekers get from woodworking, comes from the building process, as compared to the % of the "reward" attributable to the finished object? I'm thinking "rewards" from the building process might include skill growth, exercise or just time enjoyably spent in the shop, as compared to the "reward" you/someone else gets from appreciating the finished object on a daily basis?


I appreciate any and all comments.


Best, Mike

[Mike Henderson]

For me, it's all in the process. Once I finish something, I don't have much interest in it.

A couple of pieces I built for my wife I enjoy seeing in the house, but I enjoyed making them more.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

For me, the pleasure is in the build, trying out and mastering a new tool or technique, and just being out in the shop.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have a different take on this, in that I feel places like Facebook, Blogs, Web Forums and similar are wonderful for teaching the craft and inspiring true craftsmen. How else would someone like me find themselves learning from craftsmen in practically every state in the US and multiple countries.

[Dave Anderson NH]

+1 Mike Henderson. For me the interest and fun is in the making, the result not so much.

[george wilson]

Dave,a REAL problem is when you have enough imagination to visualize a project way before it is completed! Sometimes,I have to remind myself that this project will NOT EXIST if I DON'T actually make it!! That seems to help,but not always.

Not that I compare myself with daVinci,but he had the same problem. This is why so many of his projects(and some of mine) never got completed.

Having been mentioned a few times here( and thank you for the kind comments!),I will say that I have always been a natural teacher,and was for 6 years when I started my career. Especially now that am old,creaky,and work much less in the shop than I really ought to,it TRULY is my desire to help teach others how to become better craftsmen. It is also a way of passing on my legacy. Some detractors will think I'm a liar here,but this is truly my desire. yes,I get frustrated with recalcitrant persons,and ought to just give up on them. But do not,soon enough. I have taught at least 22 people in the museum to be craftsmen who worked in my shop over the years. However,I have found out that most of them,even though being quite intelligent,could never,ever learn to draw and design. Either they had it or they didn't. In fact,no person except one I ever taught in the museum could draw well. The one person who COULD draw well had horrible taste !! He thought,for example,that rectangles are ugly. SEVERE limitations. One of my students was the most intelligent person I have ever met. At opening a book to any painting,she could name the painting and the painter,and give a biography of the painter. She also spoke 3 languages fluently. Often did so with French or German tourists. She was quite an accomplished classical guitarist,which is what she studied in the USA and in Spain. She will never eat a garbanzo(chick pea) again!!! She actually became quite a good craftsman. But,her designs were mediocre and downright ordinary. She now works at the Smithsonian,which I consider a waste of her great mind. But,I guess that was where her head steered her. Her parents were civil service. And,I'm sure she makes more money than the museum would ever provide,since it was unlikely that she would ever become a master craftsmen,meaning the supervisor of the shop,with its higher pay scale. Too many others ahead of her. But,I know that money was never her priority.

Fortunately for most museum employees who are craftsmen,you are expected to ONLY make COPIES of original things. I found that just TOO BORING. And,often strayed afield!!:) But,my NON COPIES were made using correct detail work,and COULD HAVE been made in the period.

So,it boils down to either you have it or you don't. This is why so many plans are sold for simple projects like a foot stool,toy box,etc.. I hardly ever actually have drawn plans,unless the project is mechanically complex. Usually I draw the plan directly on the wood or metal. I did draw the marquetry designs for the marquetry guitar's back and sides. The designs had to fit into the irregularly shaped areas they occupied. And,though I invented the design,detail elements were important if the guitar was to be a truly correct instrument. I drew no plans for the spinet harpsichord we made in the film. Like the old time builders,I always drew the plan directly on the wood for the bottom of the instrument,and built up the instrument from there. That's how they did it in the 18th. C. and earlier. But,that is simply the way I did it,regardless of history.

[Frederick Skelly]

George, I for one would be very interested to hear your thoughts on the question "how do older toolmakers/craftsmen pass on their skills" or on post #3 (by Matt McCormick).

Any nuggests for us Sir?

[george wilson]

Frederick: I have passed on my skills by first teaching students how to sharpen their tools. When they can do that,their work takes a great leap forward ! In the 18th. C.,apprentices would be required to do a great deal of grunt work. I never made anyone do that. Not really practical in a musical instrument maker's shop anyway. For hundreds of years the wood has been supplied close to dimension anyway. You buy "leaves" of curly maple for violin sides,and wedges of spruce and maple to carve tops and backs from.
Guitar tops and backs are supplied sawn to about 3/16" thick,ready for final planing and scraping to thickness.

My students used the patterns I had already made to draw outlines of violin shapes,scrolls for necks,and used molds to bend the sides to fit. After they had become good at the mechanical processes involved,they might begin to design their own rosettes peg head shapes,etc. for guitars. A number of instruments never made it to completion due to mistakes that could not be corrected!

Must run right now and feed the dogs.

[Cory Newman]

I have a different take on this, in that I feel places like Facebook, Blogs, Web Forums and similar are wonderful for teaching the craft and inspiring true craftsmen. How else would someone like me find themselves learning from craftsmen in practically every state in the US and multiple countries.

Agree wholeheartedly, I find myself at a stage where hand tools are suddenly interesting, after years of power tool usage. I'm doing exactly as you say, facebook, blogs and web forums and all of a sudden I am passionate about woodworking again. And while its great to have access to all this online content, I'd love to find someone local to learn from in person.

[John K Jordan]

One thing that I'm curious about is, how do older toolmakers/craftsmen pass on their skills?


This is a fascinating and disturbing topic. In the years as I approached retirement at the Oak Ridge National Lab I started noticing how many skills were lost when older wizards retired. Certainly there are clever young people replacing them but what a shame each generation has to learn skills by trial-and-error that others spent decades perfecting.

Even as amateur craftsmen, shame on us if we don't do what we can with young people. You never know when even a few hours of teaching and one-on-one attention will spark a life-long interest, even if it never earns them any money. Fortunately there seem to be as many kids interested in learning to make things as there are who would rather go to the mall - and I am blessed with a wonderful shop. The young lady with the sign exclaimed "I think I'm getting addicted to this!"

349574 349575 349576

JKJ

[Derek Cohen]

I think about building something, with a focus on the end product, and not about the tools I can play with. Tools are a means to an end, not the end in themselves.

For example, at present while I rebuild a kitchen, I am also designing a side table. I am quite excited about the design, partly because it involves a new skill set, but even more because it it is a new design with new ideas. I don't think about the construction until the design is done. This is still all in my head. Nothing on paper except, sometimes, a sketch. Only then do I consider how it is to be built, the tools, and the joinery.

While I enjoy handtools, and will use them first, there is pleasure in mastering all tools - power as well. It is horses for courses, and I consider a craftsman does not develop a prejudice ... tools are just tools. Use the appropriate tool to best effect. There are details that can only be created with hand tools, and there are constructions that are better suited to power tools. The table will use a bent lamination. How would you do that? Does it matter?

Master the tools, then focus on using the tools for the purpose they were designed to be used - crafting a design. Too many on forums appear to be interested in tools alone, or sharpening alone ... and there is no connection to craft.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Malcolm McLeod]

I am not young anymore, but will stick up for the young. There are still crafts-persons (gotta be PC) among them. Perhaps it is the shortsightedness of older generations that we don't readily recognize it.

There are true masters of their craft around us. But what value does society place on that particular craft? If I am a master of buggy whip building, will the world (or an apprentice) beat a path to my door? I suspect not. "But I'm THE BEST!!," says I. Sure, there might be a few remaining buggy whip collectors or users out there who will treasure my methods and mourn my passing, but the rest of the world has moved on. Will buggy whip building make a come-back? My crystal ball is broken, so will leave the answer to the reader. ...And please insert the craft of your choice!

When all the buggy whip builders are gone, will society be poorer for it? Perhaps. Or perhaps, we'll look on it as something like mastodon hunting - - just a historical curiosity, of no practical use. Each generation looks at the world around them and rejects some of it. Hopefully, they get it right. But it will become their world, and theirs to judge if they lost something they shouldn't have. (Perhaps they'll visit SMC and recover it?)

As for the young people, I see signs of excellence all around me. Are some "in it for the money"? Sure! The same holds true with my generation, and every generation past. Can they sharpen PM-V11 plane blades on that natural rock outcropping, barefoot, in a blizzard? Probably not. ...Are they to be condemned for it? OR, maybe they'll skip the whole rock-sharpening-learning-curve to build a solar nano-laser that sharpens blades and cures acne?

I have mentored my son's robotics classes and I see a bright future for craftsmanship. I see software that moves the world. I see cars that don't need tuneups and can order dinner, and will soon drive themselves. Cell phones with apps that can find me when I'm too old to remember how to get home. I see family and friends with cancer - - and it is no longer a death sentence. All of this from essentially young crafts-persons. My opinion is that any occupation can be a craft, if it is approached with the right attitude. And many have that. And they will be the new masters.

I just hope I will always recognize excellent craftsmanship, even if its in IKEA furniture or a snippet of code in a PLC. I would hate to think I would reject such recognition just because they didn't learn it from me. My sons deserve better.

[Jim Koepke]

So far only one of my heirs seems much interested:

349582

Mike is my grandson who is now 14. He seems to enjoy working at the lathe.

One of my neighbors, Coner, was coming around, but I think his dad felt he was bugging me too much even though I enjoyed having him in the shop. He is taking wood shop in school.

To pass on knowledge, one has to find a willing receiver.

jtk

[Matt McCormick]

I have a different take on this, in that I feel places like Facebook, Blogs, Web Forums and similar are wonderful for teaching the craft and inspiring true craftsmen. How else would someone like me find themselves learning from craftsmen in practically every state in the US and multiple countries.
You are sure right about this Brian....... I learn so much from the internet! For example, Your blog is awesome, when it comes to working wood I could not even hold the hem of your royal Kimono. And as others have stated the "doing" or process is one of the most important parts of Craft. I do think I am wrong..... I have always thought that the George Wilsons and Warren Markleys were the Craftsmen. But just thinking about it, my definition is just plain wrong. Skill and experience are certainly a great part of it. But the intangible here is the desire....... the inward joy(outward too) of creating and making something...... of expressing ourselves thru our craft.
Mike Henderson is someone that willingly passes on what he knows...... he comes across as a guy you would love to learn from. I don't think Mike was a professional carver, but his tutorials sure have helped me. Just about every one here has great techniques or skill they can share here or just showing a neighborhood kid how to saw a board.....
Anyway, wouldn't you want a Dentist like Matt Lau! He is committed to being the best he can be..... again it is desire.
And with me when I have a student that shows desire....... I give them everything I've got, and then it overpowers them and they think I'm some crazy old man. :( I have more to say...... but need to sort out my thoughts..... lets keep this thread going......

[Brian Holcombe]

If you guys take a close look at an article (blog post) I wrote in Aug/Sep about the Kez event in Brooklyn, NYC. You may notice that many of the contenders are 30-50yrs old, now that I am 32 I consider people of this age group to be very young :D. So the youth is being represented in the craft.

[Mike Allen1010]

[
QUOTE=Brian Holcombe;2634793]I have a different take on this, in that I feel places like Facebook, Blogs, Web Forums and similar are wonderful for teaching the craft and inspiring true craftsmen. How else would someone like me find themselves learning from craftsmen in practically every state in the US and multiple countries.
[/QUOTE]


+1

Well said Brian I couldn't agree more!

I started as a self-taught, hand tool woodworker in the late 1970s. At that time, my only resources were few books (James Kernov's in particular). I clearly remember buying my first hand plane – a Paragon brand # 5 from Garrett Wade. I literally had no idea vintage hand planes even existed and had never even seen one.


When I tried to plane my first board, predictably I was hugely disappointed – I couldn't take a single shaving! Trying to follow the only written descriptions I had of how to sharpen and set up a plane was an exercise in frustration. Of course I had no idea about "hand tool friendly" types of wood, planning "with the grain", etc. – what the heck did that mean? I couldn't understand how Krenov was able to make those fluffy shavings and get such beautiful planed surfaces, and why I was absolutely failing – not even close. As you can imagine, it was super frustrating!


Of course, the online resources we have available today not only make it much easier for beginners to get started with woodworking, but also allow more experienced woodworkers to acquire and develop even the most sophisticated skills.


The SMC community and all the knowledge/expertise/experience so generously shared here have are a huge blessing for me! Personally a great example of how the "good old days" of woodworking weren't so great for a struggling, beginning woodworker like me.


All the best, Mike

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

I read more than I post here, and before doing that I read once again... And I can say that I silently learn from many people here and elsewhere without them knowing it and it's working great for me. I monitor whatever George, Derek or Brian has to say, to name a few. And do research on them if I see I can learn from them what I might need. I agree with Brain regarding usefulness of internet here, with some warning below.

I would say there is also an opposite problem, how to find the right teacher to learn from. It took me a few years of internet reading to sort things out without much experience in woodworking. And I was caught by some traps on the way. I mean, there are a lot of opinions on many things, but only few know enough to explain why. It is a pleasure to watch The English Woodworker or George movie, for example, compared to huge amount of youtube videos of self taught kids (knowledge-vice).

I'm sure there would be more apprentices willing to learn if there would be less "money" related cultivated virtues (capitalistic ideology), and less working hours per day. So, I'm starting to understand what communism has given us one hundred years ago and that we should fight for 6 hours working day to make it even better, hehe :) I think I would have some more time to do woodworking and other crafts then!

[george wilson]

Actually,there was a buggy whip maker i Williamsburg. I used to make some of his brass joints! He was the head of coach and livestock,and was always making a whip for someone. There is quite a carriage driving contest every year.

[Curt Putnam]

A professional does his best when does not want to. A craftsman does his best when no one will see it.

It is possible to have the spirit of craftsmanship without the skills. I think many forum inhabitants (myself included) fall into this category.

The old ways are being preserved but transformed by CNC and 3D printing.

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

Question: One big point that George, Steve and others make regularly is the need to go out to your shop and MAKE something. It sounds like you are self-taught. Are you doing enough of hands-on to feel like you are actually able to apply what you've read? (Im one who learns by reading, then trying, then reading and asking questions, then trying again.)


I've designed and built furniture on commission for a few years now, usually completely unplugged, so I get plenty of time in the shop. I learn fairly well by reading, but I probably could've saved months if not years of shop time when I first started learning--about 11 years ago--if someone had been there to point and say "do this, not that." The repeated walking back and forth between a book/computer in those first few years to try and get anything to work at all was sort of hell. But I guess that's what sorts people out, in the long run. As others have said, it seems that you either have it or you don't. In a lot of ways that seems to be referring to a certain degree of stubbornness.

[Frederick Skelly]

I've designed and built furniture on commission for a few years now, usually completely unplugged, so I get plenty of time in the shop. I learn fairly well by reading, but I probably could've saved months if not years of shop time when I first started learning--about 11 years ago--if someone had been there to point and say "do this, not that." The repeated walking back and forth between a book/computer in those first few years to try and get anything to work at all was sort of hell. But I guess that's what sorts people out, in the long run. As others have said, it seems that you either have it or you don't. In a lot of ways that seems to be referring to a certain degree of stubbornness.

Good for you! And all good points!
Regards,
Fred

[Mel Fulks]

I think that in a trade shop the best method is teach step by step. Allow no questions on the clock except clarification of a point , no indulgence of "can I do this instead of what you just said". For one thing safety can be incorporated that way.

[Matt McCormick]

I've been thinking a lot about the meaning of life and what I do.

One thing that I'm curious about is, how do older toolmakers/craftsmen pass on their skills?

Is there a formal apprenticeship system (like Japan)?
Is there a way to ensure demand, so that these artisans can support themselves?

Apprenticeships are rare now in the machining trades now...... again economic. So I believe people are just shown how to do the job and if they do well they will get a chance to do the next task that pays more, and on it goes. My current job as a university machine shop manager is teaching machine shop theory to seniors in mechanical engineering. This is done by the students choose a project to design and make at least part of a working prototype or scale model of the project. JPL/NASA sponsor some as do the Navy and local business. Today's kids are very bright, they have a good grasp of math and science and computers of course. I usually have 70 to 80 in my class...... by the time they get to me they are to have a final design ready to manufacture. They work in groups of 4, about half choose to do computer simulations or can just 3D print their parts. So I actually end up with 40 or so....... of these half are excited to actually learn to use the shop. The first class I had was 2 years ago, I had never worked like this before when I was at USC my students were grad students from MIT or Stanford or somewhere like that and already had medical degrees, they were scary smart and great people. And we were working on designing instruments and procedures to be used as soon as we could get the proven And out to the public. Anyway they were 25 to 28 years old and were just a whole different breed than the guys I have now. So now I am faced with 22 year old people who just need to get a project done and they can be free to get the heck out of school. As I talked to these kids I found that no more than 5 had ever used tools( I'm not kidding). And to make matters worse..... most professors are not engineers, they are researchers and academics. There is nothing wrong with that, expect most have never worked as an engineer...... so they really can not prepare someone to do a job nobody knows about.
To make matters worse, before I was there they decided that all a student needed was a 2 hour class on running a lathe and running a mill was another 2 hours...... I could not believe it. Heck it takes me 20 minutes to show someone how to put a vise on a machine. So I had to just scare them into respecting machinery with stories of me seeing people losing eyes and fingers, and of course showing them what a endmill and a lathe chuck will do to a hotdog(if your son or daughter come home from college traumatized you can thank guys like me). Well my job is to do my job...... and amazingly things went pretty well. When I worked with the teams I taught them how to interact with machinists,the more senior staff and as much as I could in the couple of weeks I had them. Jobs are hard to find today in spite of what the politicians tell us. But my first group did pretty well with a couple going to JPL and a few going to Chrysler and Honda. 90% came back or emailed me and said the machining and my tips were What got them ahead of others that went to better schools but didn't have hands on experience. When I brought the emails and had kids send letters to the dean telling him that....... I was told to go and buy a $500 3DPrinter. No really.......
I have done three more classes since, now this latest one I now get to meet with all the kids and have a design review before their final design. It is getting better. I think the old adage " a poor craftsman blames his tools" could also be applied to teachers. After reading some of the other replies.... Yes Craftsmanship is alive and well, it does change but the desire to do good for for the sake of doing good work is still out there...... maybe I just don't recognize it. Also in my first post I talked about people using what I showed them to get get ahead...... I want everyone I teach to get more money and success........ it was just in the cases I was talking about they using what I taught them to go out and say they had experience that they didn't....... the old German master craftsman used to call this stealing the trade, i.e. Not putting in the time needed to become competent. Anyway great topic let's keep it going.

[Stewie Simpson]

Apprenticeships are rare now in the machining trades now...... again economic.

Lower standards of established trade training in the USA.

[Jim Koepke]

Lower standards in the USA.

Lower standards than who?

How does the passing of apprenticeship programs lead to the conclusion of lower standards?

Many of the trades that used to be on the job training are now taught in community colleges. So now welders/technicians/machinists learn in a school and get certified without some company having to foot the bill.

Also it is likely there are enough people with experience to hire that there isn't a need for businesses to invest in training new comers.

My last employer would rarely hire anyone fresh out of school. They hired folks who had experience either through the military or in the case of a lot of mechanics they hired people who had worked in airline maintenance. A major airlines closed a maintenance facility in the San Francisco area. Fortunately for a lot of displaced workers there were a jobs opened for them working at a transit system. Another source for a lot of workers was military bases closing. For the transit agency it wasn't uncommon for them to hire someone who was already near retirement if they had a good background. Mine was a different path as my quest was to change to a better paying job.

BTW, the test I needed to pass to be considered for the job had a 94% failure rate. Usually out of the 6% who did pass less than half would take the job. Usually the reason was it was either too dirty or not the 'high tech' sector in which they wanted to work. Most of the people who did stay and work there had a thing for rail roading. Even though it was a rail system, it wasn't really a rail road.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

I re-read my post made earlier and it did not make much sense. Not in the way I had intended. Probably a result of writing late at night. The question buzzing in my head was not just how craftsmen pass on their knowledge, but the process of becoming a craftsman today.

Becoming a craftsman is not limited to professionals. There are many amateurs that aspire to become - and achieve - the level of a crafstman. Completing an apprenticeship may be the path that one associates with learning, but modern times have seen this option fade away. It's still available, but many choose alternate routes, which were not available in days gone by.

What I had meant to say was that learning to use a tool is not enought to constitute craftsmanship, but it is the first step in that direction. I believe that we all start out with the desire to build .. something. Then we look around for advice or information how to achieve that goal. In my case, I grew up watching carpenters on building sites I visited with my father, an architect. Years later, when I started using my own tools, the memory of these guys was supplemented with information in books and magazines. Later came instructors, such as Norm. Norm was a mentor to so many, including myself. This was the era of power tools, and the medium of instruction was the TV. This was before the advent of Internet forums. That came next, and is the way of today. Interestingly, the Internet has made it possible for a new form of teaching, which is the short training course, one that specialises in a specific technique. There are now many teachers, each offering workshops in this and that. They teach an element of mastering a craft, but they do not teach one to become a craftsman.

I believe that learning to be a craftsman is more than learning to use a tool. Learning to be a craftsman is about training the mind. Learning to use tools is just the first stage of development.

This is why the forums are filled with so many discussions about tools and much, much less about the techniques of building, and even less about design. The art of repair is as much a craft as building something afresh. It comes down to a plan for action ... execution ... how am I going to do this or that.

What is it that craftsmen teach? How to use a tool, or the techniques that follow? I imagine that apprenticeships of old were less about learning to use tools and more about the routes to a goal - strategy and shortcuts, design elements and ways to achieve them.

Today there are many books and videos available. This is the new medium. It will preserve some of the teachings of some of the "masters" (and some not so masterful). Hopefully, as one moves through the stage of mastering the tools of choice, this is replaced by the confidence to master technique, and then the desire and drive to create. This latter area is not something that is taught, but something inspired. I like to believe that there is a lot more of this going around today as a result of discussions such as these.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Ritter]

I've been following along and this quote comes to mind.

If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people to collect wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea. Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Exactly Jim.

My first post was about having a dream, being inspired, and holding that visualisation while you work. There is joy in using tools to reach that goal, but one must shuttle back-and-forth between the now and the then. It is the then that inspires the now.

How does one teach this? Can it be taught? Masters need not only to teach technique, but also inspire enthusiasm to reach out and do. The stories that the Georges tell, together with their work, are priceless in this regard.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Ritter]

That is the conundrum isn't it.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

[edit]

I believe that learning to be a craftsman is more than learning to use a tool. Learning to be a craftsman is about training the mind. Learning to use tools is just the first stage of development.

[edit]

Regards from Perth

Derek

This makes me think of a quote of which my first encounter was a source that mistakenly attributed it to St Francis of Assisi:


“He who works with his hands is a laborer.
He who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.
He who works with his hands and his head and his heart is an artist.

--Louis Nizer

jtk

[James Pallas]

Unless we change the way we educate most of all the art forms will be gone. Very few if any history classes, same with art classes, home classes, shop classes, writing classes, etc. Almost everything we purchase is based on colorful packaging and how many can be jambed into the hold of a cargo ship or a rail car. I can't be a judge of whether that is good or bad I can say that when beauty goes the world will be a sad place. The craftsmen who can still create beautiful things can't teach if there is no one to listen. This forum and others have a group of rare individuals and not many. What is the newest buzz word "STEM". No art in that, or is there?
Jim

[William Adams]

Yeah, James Pallas has it --- people need to learn to appreciate aesthetics --- it's hard in graphic design to have appreciative clients if their penmanship is so abysmal that any sort of lettering or typography seems wonderful to them.

Similarly, it's hard to start people in shop class if they lack the fine motor skills to even write nicely.

[george wilson]

Packaging of relatively ,shall we say,low cost objects,is quite a sales art(sales and art-Do those words belong in the same sentence????) these days. A guy I know who has made himself a millionaire,practices it all the time. He says,and I must agree,that a good job of packaging increases the "Perceived Value" of the object within. This person makes what most of us would call "tourist trinkets". His gig is to go into ANY museum's gift shop. He will most often see little items packaged in a baggie type envelope,with a price sticker stuck on. Made by some small craftsman,with the packaging given no thought at all. He has developed sufficient money to spend $5000.00 dollars on a nice,colorful package with a plastic window. Inside this package is neatly displayed a silver plated spoon with some historic building engraved on the bowl in 3 dimensions. Or a railroad engine,etc.. He will take this re packaged AND IMPROVED UPON,( with greater detail) , item back to the museum,and offer it to them for 25 cents cheaper. He gets all their business.

This person used to run the products development and behind the scenes silver smithing operation at Williamsburg I made a lot of money back then,making all their wire drawing dies(for making molded wires to be bent into bracelets,etc.) I did a lot of their models. Now,he gets the prototypes mostly made in China. The museum didn't buy much from China at the time. He is constantly going to China to correct their attempts at making prototypes,etc..

Had the museum listened to his marketing ideas,it would be making VASTLY more money in its product department!!

When he's in too big a hurry he will still get me to make a prototype. For example,I made the model for the plastic Edison light bulb atop a pencil sold at the Edison Museum(Then it was sent to China,where they made a mold that closes OUT OF REGISTRATION !!!) to mold that light bulb and attach it to the pencil.(And,I DID such a careful job of making an exact model of the real bulb!!!!) In fact,I did the job twice to get it just perfect. Now,the Chinese mold it slightly out of registration-The 2 halves don't match up perfectly!! HOW AGGRAVATING ! Anyway,I also make much tooling for him to put curves and bulges into his gold plated,acid etched out Christmas tree decorations. He doesn't like paying my hourly charge(which is MUCH LESS than he could get a commercial machine shop to do!!) Plus,they'd laugh him out of the place because they would not understand the "importance" of the job!:) Important to his making MONEY at it!!

I had to make a simple machine to buzz off the bases of his St. Louis arch,mounted on a nicely finished piece of mahogany. They were cast,and the bases were not at all flat to fit against the wood base. So many other jobs I can't even recall them.

He paid very generously when the museum was footing the bills for prototypes and tooling. Now on his own,his purse strings have tightened a LOT. He practically expects me to work for the same wages as the bandana wearing house wives he hires to stuff his products into the fancy packages!!:) I WON'T,of course. He is also too tight to invest in even the more basic machines so he could do the work in house. He owns a drill press and a buffer. I have spent many thousands upon wood and metal working machines in my own shop. That doesn't seem to count!:) Plus heating the large building!

Such is the wonderful World of packaging. My wife has learned a few very useful tricks from him,though. She applies them to her own business.