Shellac

[David Ragan]

Hi,

Am toying w shellac-superblonde dewaxed.

My current project, a small box turned out good, I suppose--my standards for a finish are probably low.

I have several questions:

1) Am using BORG DNA-good enough? If I get everclear or Bekhol , will that result in a harder finish? BORG DNA has too much water in it?
2) Instead of the oil-free steel wool 0000-is the superfine Mirlon pads good enough? I just did use this Mirlon, and it turned out OK.
3) does the processing to get superblonde dewaxed degrade your final product? I have read that the chemical processing of taking out the color results in shorter shelf life, or softer finish(?)
4) Also, I read that when I get it from the freezer, and open it w/o waiting for it to come to room temperature, all the ambient moisture condenses on my flakes---and-----that will degrade my finish. Do you all make/put dessicants in the container or let it sit out for hours to warm up before opening?

Thanks!

[Bill White]

I fully admit to using Seal Coat instead of flakes, and have had no probs using DNA from the borgs as a thinner.
There are the purists who might obsess on some of the shellac details, but I just can't quite imagine using quality Ever Clear as a thinner.

The condensation issue is WAY above my pay grade, but I'll betcha that the old masters didn't worry a great deal when mixing flakes.


I use non-woven pads often, and have had no issues.


Be safe.

[John TenEyck]

Same as Bill. I use Sealcoat and borg DNA. Never had a problem. Seal coat lasts at least 2 years and costs much less than 2 lbs of flakes and a gallon of DNA. When I want color I add Transtint dye to it.

John

[Prashun Patel]

I think you found the three unabashed sealcoat users here on smc. It works for me well.

[Jim Becker]

Make that three Sealcoat users. :) It's actually good stuff. Brushes well and sprays beautifully right out of the container with my HPLV conversion gun. I'd use flakes if I needed something different, particularly in darker colors, but for general shellac sealing and/or finishing...Sealcoat gets the nod from me. For small projects, the spray-bomb cans are also useful and economical.

[David Ragan]

Well, let's hear it for modern industry.

If I want to have a go @ FP, then the flake/DNA route is the way to go, right?

[John TenEyck]

Well, let's hear it for modern industry.

If I want to have a go @ FP, then the flake/DNA route is the way to go, right?


Sealcoat is shellac. You French polish with shellac. ......

John

[Jon Nuckles]

One more person who uses Sealcoat without shame, even for a french polish.

[Jim Becker]

Yup...Sealcoat is just pre-dissolved de-waxed "blond" shellac...

[Frederick Skelly]

Another for Sealcoat. Onnly difference is I buy DNA at the paint store because that's convenient for me.

I have the impression some people go for everclear, not for better results, but more to reduce exposure to whatever toxins are in DNA. Not sure how thats different/better than wearing glove, but I havent researched it at all.

Glad to see you posting David! Give my regards to Mr. Bathurst if you see him!
Fred

[Alan Lightstone]

I think Woodcraft now sells DNA that's a much greater percentage of ethanol, and less methanol. I got mine on Amazon.

Look for Kleen Strip Green DNA. Works great with shellac. I haven't seen it in BORGs anymore. The BORG DNA is getting more and more methanol percentage every year.

[David Ragan]

So-the methanol is bad news w the visual toxicity. Skin absorption, inhalation.

I just checked the price of Everclear. 190 proof, 95% 1.75 L is $40. I guess the other 5% is water.

That would be $80 a gallon. Gulp. (figuratively)

In regards to 0000 steel wool v Mirlon super fine-is there any advantage to either one besides that the steel wool is cheaper?

Can you rejuvenate Mirlon pads by washing them?

[glenn bradley]

I lost count so I will just say I am another person who has used Seal Coat for over a decade and have no desire to change when a "clear" shellac finish is what I'm after. Not-so-hidden benefits are use as a sealer, blotch control, tints well with Transtint dyes for coloration, 3 year shelf life, sealer between incompatible or questionable materials, etc.

I keep three cuts in squirt bottles; a light cut (2:1 DNA:shellac out of the can) for sealing and general tasks, a "thicker" (1:1) cut for most of my use and a full strength (2lb cut) when I want more body so I can work the shellac during application. the BORG DNA I use is KleanStrip. Even the "green" KleanStrip is 80 -90% ethanol.

The only reverse-problem I have had with Seal Coat is shelf life . . . it lasts so long you can keep it long enough to have the water in the DNA cause the can liner to fail. Normally I consume it at a steady rate but, there was this can at the back . . . BTW, Zinsser replaced the can without question when I emailed them. I now transfer my Seal Coat to glass containers . . . only to protect myself from myself ;-)

[Prashun Patel]

David,
Steel wool can leave tiny shards that require careful dusting if you are putting anything on top of the shellac besides wax.
Have not used Mirlon, but I have not had good luck with similar synthetic type pads. For me, they are either too aggressive or not aggressive enough. I have never been able to make the 'white' pads work well.
I suggest that you throw Abralon pads into consideration. These are fine abrasive ROS pads that have a foam backer. They are extremely durable and reusable if you treat and lube them properly. I use these by hand and with 5" and 3" ROS's. They're versatile and polish extremely well.

[John TenEyck]

Glenn, I've had pin holing of the can happen on a nearly new, full can of Sealcoat (based on manufacturing code). I don't think water is the problem, unless it was in the can when manufactured, or maybe there is more than one failure mechanism. Now I keep my cans in a plastic bucket, just in case.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

I won't use box-store DNA because I don't want to risk exposure to methanol.

[Pat Barry]

I didn't know much about this so I looked at wikipedia. They are saying that DNA is ethyl alcohol + methanol therefore wouldn't all DNA have methanol? In other words, where would you find DNA without methanol?

[Mel Fulks]

The government doesn't care what you put in it as long as it makes it poisonous. So there are some differences in the brand recipes.

[David Ragan]

I looked up Bekhol. From what I see, only sold in quarts about $15. Shipping probably will end up more than everclear.

The below is from Wikipedia. Bekhol is ethanol, isopropanol (rubbing alcohol), water, and Butanol:

Like many alcohols, butanol is considered toxic. It has shown low order of toxicity in single dose experiments to laboratory animals.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol#cite_note-3) and is considered safe enough for use in cosmetics. Brief, repeated overexposure with the skin can result in depression of the central nervous system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system_depression), as with other short-chain alcohols (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohols#Simple_alcohols). Exposure may also cause severe eye irritation and moderate skin irritation. The main dangers are from prolonged exposure to fumes. In extreme cases this includes suppression of the central nervous system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system) and even death. Under most circumstances, butanol is quickly metabolized to carbon dioxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide).


So, at this point, from a purely what is safest point of view, looks like Everclear and Bekhol. Cost is probably about the same for these two.

I had no idea that DNA was not all that safe. Who knew?

[Mel Fulks]

Denatured definition is "to be made poisonous ". You'd think they would want to be easily understood ...but that's what happens when regulatory officials are allowed to own a thesaurus !

[Jon Nuckles]

Denatured definition is "to be made poisonous ". You'd think they would want to be easily understood ...but that's what happens when regulatory officials are allowed to own a thesaurus !
Mel,
The regulators may be at fault, but they probably bowed to lobbyists for the manufacturers who objected to putting "Poisoned Alcohol" on their product containers!

[John TenEyck]

I don't understand why people are all that concerned about DNA. You aren't supposed to drink it or bath in it! How much is your exposure as a hobbiest woodworker? Wear an organics respirator and gloves.

John

[Stew Hagerty]

I use shellac quite a lot. I exclusively use Tiger Flakes from Tools for Working Wood. https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-TF.XX

I keep the raw flakes in the refrigerator. To use them, I weigh out the amount I'm going to need then I crush them. I pour the crushed flakes into a Stop Loss Bag. http://www.stoplossbags.com/ I started using these bags about a year ago and absolutely love them.

I pour in the appropriate amount of alcohol for a 2lb cut. I always make shellac using Everclear from the liquor store, it's the purest form of alcohol readily available. Then when I get ready to use it, if I am going to spray it or want to apply just a thin coat, I reduce it with 99% Pure Isopropyl alcohol. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001B5JT8C/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Isopropyl is the slowest drying of the common alcohols and give a little extra time for it to flow out.

I am certainly no expert, and I don't know if what I do is the best method there is. I just know that it it does work great for me and I'm very happy with the results.

[Mel Fulks]

Jon ,you might be on to something ,but Its also possible that the warning is just old fashioned and outdated and needs to be modernized. I think it is entirely possible that some have given up strained Sterno and gone to DNA "for health reasons".

[David Ragan]

I don't understand why people are all that concerned about DNA. You aren't supposed to drink it or bath in it! How much is your exposure as a hobbiest woodworker? Wear an organics respirator and gloves.

John

I agree. Can someone supply even anecdotal evidence that anyone has been harmed by hobby exposure to the adulterants found in any preparation of "alcohols" (as a chemical class) used like we have been talking about.

Having said that, think I'll just go pick me up some Everclear when I run out of DNA.

[Bill White]

CRAP!!!! You mean that all the DNA I've been drinkin' is gonna kill me? I thought that the stuff that the dentist shot into my mouth today was gonna do the same thing.
Oh well.......I guess that the benzene, carbon tetrachloride, trichloroethylene, and MEK would kill me before now.
Danged industry. Guess that I did have to make a living, and I did skip agent orange.
Such is life.
Bill

[Jerry Olexa]

Agree with comments above,,SEALCOAT good product and Borg DA is fine..I would not use steel wool though....
Just my thoughts

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't understand why people are all that concerned about DNA. You aren't supposed to drink it or bath in it! How much is your exposure as a hobbiest woodworker? Wear an organics respirator and gloves.

John

Even better than low chance of exposure is no chance of exposure.

[David Ragan]

Anybody ever heard that one reason to use Everclear is that the methanol in DNA can facilitate any traces of wax to be incorporated into the finish.

this makes sense because the methanol would be less polar than ethanol. Of course, wax is non-polar.

[Prashun Patel]

Methanol is more polar than ethanol, isn't it? We in fact use it as a solvent to extract chemicals *from* wax because of its aversion to wax.

I thought it polarity is crudely proportional to the ratio of oxygen to carbon in a molecule, which would make methanol more polar than ethanol. But I'm not a chemist, so I'm talking out of school here.

[David Ragan]

"uncle"
I tried to Google it just now, and just got confused.

You may well be right, Prashun. Water is polar. Carbon backbones w hydrogen only side chains are non-polar.

Maybe one of our chemists can weigh in.

[Alan Lightstone]

I thought there were other reasons why ethanol was preferable to methanol for use with shellac (despite the toxicity issue).

Yes, all DNA has ethanol and methanol. But the cheaper BORG versions are starting to have greater and greater proportions of methanol in them. The last one I looked at, if I recall correctly, was majority methanol.

Looking at the Kleen Strip MSDS forms, Kleen Strip Green is 80-90% ethanol.

Regular Kleen Strip SLX is 30-50% ethanol, and 40-60% methanol. So it's really mostly methanol. Not cool in my book, so I don't use it. And I'm OCD regarding chemical mask protection while I work.

Everclear, of course, is the real deal, but not obtainable in Florida.

[Mel Fulks]

I've been told that Everclear has gone up in price way beyond the high tax ,to compensate retailers for mandated safety handling since it is a flammable material sold among non flammable products. Post 911 stuff. Some states have stopped selling it. I like Behkol for disolving shellac flakes ,I think it works as well as Everclear and its way cheaper.

[David Ragan]

I thought there were other reasons why ethanol was preferable to methanol for use with shellac (despite the toxicity issue).

Yes, all DNA has ethanol and methanol. But the cheaper BORG versions are starting to have greater and greater proportions of methanol in them. The last one I looked at, if I recall correctly, was majority methanol.

Looking at the Kleen Strip MSDS forms, Kleen Strip Green is 80-90% ethanol.

Regular Kleen Strip SLX is 30-50% ethanol, and 40-60% methanol. So it's really mostly methanol. Not cool in my book, so I don't use it. And I'm OCD regarding chemical mask protection while I work.

Everclear, of course, is the real deal, but not obtainable in Florida.

Thanks for that Alan.....you would think the manufacturer would let the consumer know. DNA seems benign; "Kleen strip" cant be good to inhale.


I've been told that Everclear has gone up in price way beyond the high tax ,to compensate retailers for mandated safety handling since it is a flammable material sold among non flammable products. Post 911 stuff. Some states have stopped selling it. I like Behkol for disolving shellac flakes ,I think it works as well as Everclear and its way cheaper.

This is what I been wondering....you like Behkol-it's specifically made for shellac? I have not seen anyway to buy in a gallon(?)

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah David, the Behkol ( made by Behlens finishing stuff company) is specificly for shellac. We had an old time type hardware store than always had some, they are now gone but it's easy to buy on line.

[Prashun Patel]

While I have not used Behkol, I suspect that the reason people like to use it (apart from the possible misperception that it's safer than other forms of DNA) is because it contains some amount of isopropyl alcohol, which will extend the open time of the shellac a tad. I find using IPA in part or whole for 'padding' makes it much easier to learn for a beginner.

[Mel Fulks]

It's been several years since I used any Behkol ! But I used it after reading that it can be depended on to easily dissolve the flakes. It had gotten to where the Borg stuff was just making a big glob. There might be some fine points to using Behkol that I just don't know.

[Frederick Skelly]

While I have not used Behkol, I suspect that the reason people like to use it (apart from the possible misperception that it's safer than other forms of DNA) is because it contains some amount of isopropyl alcohol, which will extend the open time of the shellac a tad. I find using IPA in part or whole for 'padding' makes it much easier to learn for a beginner.

Prashun, can the garden variety drugstore IPA be used (50% strength) or do you need the 99% version someone mentioned above?

[Prashun Patel]

as long as the drug store kind isn't 'rubbing alcohol' which contains some water.

[Stew Hagerty]

Prashun, can the garden variety drugstore IPA be used (50% strength) or do you need the 99% version someone mentioned above?

The Swan 99% IPA from Amazon is just $6.50 per pint.

[URL=https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001B5JT8C/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_nIOwyb2EV3DKH[/URL]