HRO Closing its doors on Oct 31st [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Keith Outten

10-08-2005, 7:39 AM

The primary sponsor of SawMill Creek is closing its doors the end of October. Hampton Roads Online has been in business as an Internet Provider since 1995, our core business has been shrinking over the years and we are no longer able to continue.

A local company in Yorktown Virginia will be assuming all of our dialup and web hosting business towards the end of October. The transition is currently in the planning stages, we hope it will be as seamless as possible with very little down time.

The fate of SawMill Creek is still undecided at this point in time. Initially we had hoped to be able to host SMC in our shop in Hayes Virginia. This is not possible now as we have not been able to ascertain the services of a server administrator. Additionally the monthly fees associated with a commercial Internet connection combined with server administration costs make it impossible for me to provide the necessary funds out of pocket. Another consideration is that Jackie and I have decided that after ten years of managing a 24 hour per day business it is time to just let go and move on.

I am in the process of negotiating an option that would provide for the continuation of SMC. This option would transfer the ownership to another company, one that has the financial resources to assure that SMC will be able to continue through the years and even decades to come.

I also have assumed worst case and in the event we cannot complete the ownership transfer of SMC by the end of the month I have located a temporary colocation space for our SMC server. This option will have a very short lifespan, the costs associated with colocating a service this large isn't inexpensive but it would buy us some time to complete the final arrangements.

Needless to say there are some very sad days ahead for Jackie and I, the loss of a business that we have worked so hard build from the ground up through the years hits very close to home. Of course we are also concerned about the fate of "The Creek" and are working frantically to assure its survival. There are also financial obligations associated with closing Hampton Roads Online that we must resolve, as well as the loss of Jackie's job and the impact to our friends who have invested in the business.

I will continue to make announcements through the end of the month in an effort to keep everyone appraised of our current status.

.

Dan Larson

10-08-2005, 8:45 AM

Keith, I'm sorry to hear that your business has been forced to close. I can only imagine how difficult of a time it is for you and your wife. I just want to wish you both the very best in your future endeavors.

Dan

John Hart

10-08-2005, 8:53 AM

Keith, I sent you a PM, but I wanted to say publicly how badly I feel for you with this news. You obviously put your heart and soul into the operation. A terrible loss.

Karl Laustrup

10-08-2005, 9:27 AM

Keith & Jackie,

So very sorry to hear of the demise of HRO.

I've been through the closing of a business [my electrical repair shop] after 10 years. It is really tough, but "knowing when to fold 'em" is important.

Thank you for the wonderful forum you have provided in SMC. It will hopefully continue as a reminder to all of us of Jackie and your dedication to a bright spot on the internet.

Karl

Keith Foster

10-08-2005, 10:43 AM

Been there, done that as well. Had to close a Bicycle shop in the early 90's and move on. For what it's worth, that turned out to be the very best thing that ever happened to me. Took a chance and went back to school, got a degree, and now we're living large. Hang in there! As has often been said, when faced with a closed door look for an open window. You'll find it's oppertunity.

Jim Becker

10-08-2005, 10:45 AM

There are a few thousand people standing beside you, Keith. I have no doubt you will get the support you need from the SMC membership community, 'cause that's what it is...a community.

David Wilson

10-08-2005, 10:55 AM

Kieth & Jackie
I am truely sorry to hear that your business is closing. Please let me know if there is anything I can do help SMC stay on line. You have created the best ever internet sight. Bar none.

Ken Fitzgerald

10-08-2005, 11:09 AM

Jackie and Keith....I'm sorry to hear about HRO closing. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help with continuing SMC. This place is a wealth of knowledge and has a civil membership like no other internet site on the web.

Ted Calver

10-08-2005, 1:03 PM

Jackie and Keith,
I am deeply sorry that the day you anticipated coming has arrived so soon.

Please share with us the costs of keeping SMC on line. Surely enough people out there feel as I do, that visiting the creek, every day or just once in a while, whether you post or not, provides more wonderful tips, tricks, techniques, full featured DIY articles, shop tours, equipment reviews and comparisons, safety reminders, project design ideas, pictures, intelligent discussions, not so intelligent discussions, links to great personal web sites, humor....need I go on?, than any of the many woodworking magazines I spend money on each year.

There is at least one other woodworking web site that seems to be able to thrive on unobtrusive advertising and voluntary contributions. Let us know what the costs would be for you to continue what you started, in a way that makes it worthwhile, and our collective genius may come up with a solution that works for us all.

Regards,
Ted

Frank Hagan

10-08-2005, 1:36 PM

Keith, I'll also join in giving my condolences. (I sent you a PM with a more detailed message).

John Miliunas

10-08-2005, 1:46 PM

First, to Keith & Jackie: I sincerely hope you folks will pull out of this OK! Obviously, having run a successful business, such as HRO, is proof enough that you guys have your act together and, with whatever the future holds for you, I have little doubt that you'll get through it just fine. Still, please accept my best wishes for a fruitful, prosperous and rewarding future.:)

As for SMC, which is THE woodworking forum to be at, if there are any options open to the Creeker membership to keep this place afloat, please share that info with us! For some "odd" reason, I believe there are enough of us out here who sincerely do NOT want to see this community "go under" and would be willing to find a resolution both, short and long term to keep it the wonderful meeting place we've all come to know and love.:) :cool:

Syd Lorandeau

10-08-2005, 3:03 PM

Hi Keith & Jackie,
As I am of a generation that feels good about being able to spell computers I have no idear what it takes to make it work. I have used SMC for advise, got new great ideas, sold stuff, on and on, all the time wondering who is doing all this work and where is the money coming from. In todays world nothing is free, you pay to blow up your tires so why not have a dues system, or everyone has to donate an item for an internet auction, or something. After reading these posts I can see nobody wants to see SMC go by the board and they are willing to pay for it. I know I am.
Syd L

Kent Parker

10-08-2005, 3:51 PM

Keith,

Sorry to hear of your need to close your business. I can not imagine it is due to any lacking on your part and I am certain that any future endeaver you pursue will suceed. Your participation in this forum has caused it to become international and created a place for all of us to "hang our hat" on a continual basis.
Thank you so much!!:)

All the best,

Kent

Alan Turner

10-08-2005, 5:50 PM

John Miliunas

10-08-2005, 6:25 PM

My thoughts are with you as I am sure this was a very difficult decision. If every tenth member sent in a contribution, what would it take to keep SMC up and running and non-commercial? Count on me for at least one of the "tenth" spots. How can we help?

I'm with Alan, at the very least! Also, maybe you might consider this thread getting moved over to the "General..." forum for a bit more exposure? Not everyone tracks the OT forum...:) :cool:

John Hart

10-08-2005, 6:33 PM

Yep...me too....I'm in. This is one of the few places on the internet worth paying for. It's worth doing whatever it takes.

Ron Jones near Indy

10-08-2005, 8:16 PM

Keith,

I wish the best for you and Jackie. Having family members in a similiar situation, I somewhat understand the situation.

Let us know what we can do to continue SMC. I'm sure you will have support for that effort from many of us.

Randy Moore

10-08-2005, 8:35 PM

Count me in for one of the tenth spots:) . I have learned a lot here.

Keith and Jackie, Sorry that you closed one aspect of your life but a new aspect will open up shortly if it hasn't already.

Randy

Norman Hitt

10-08-2005, 8:54 PM

Keith and Jackie, I am so sorry to read your post, but I do understand. May the future be Bright as you press on to other ventures. I certainly hope that in view of the obviously very sincere interest from both your side of the fence, and all of the membership of this Forum, that a Resolution will be forthcoming that is beneficial to All of us.

Best regards, Norm

Ted Shrader

10-08-2005, 9:41 PM

Corey Hallagan

10-08-2005, 10:06 PM

Keith and Jackie, I am relatively a newcomer here but this has really become home to me over the last several months. Very sorry to hear about you having to shut your business down. All the best to you both!

Corey

Peter Pedisich

10-08-2005, 10:16 PM

Keith,

I wish you and Jackie the best in the coming months.
Thanks for what you have done, I've only been a member for a few months but it has become a bright spot in my day to come to SMC and learn and share and talk to folks who feel the same about woodworking as I do.

Pete

Keith Outten

10-08-2005, 10:20 PM

Thanks so much for the words of incouragement, Jackie and I are marketing our sign business and hope to have it in full swing by the first of the year. We have work in the shop right now and some prospects for additional work through the fall season. An old friend of mine has recently joined us as a part time designer and will add AutoCad and 3D design capability to our exiting skills. We certainly hope to be offering architectural models and high-end millwork to our customers in the very near future as well.

The Moderators and Admins have been discussing our options for assuring that SMC can continue. We discussed the possiblity of offering web hosting, SMC email accounts and the possibility of going to a subscription based forum. Based on my experience with HRO I believe that web hosting just won't be able to pay the bills. Offering SMC email accounts was discounted as an option as well, most people who have their own domains have their own email addreses so it is unlikely that this would produce the required income to support SMC. A subscription based forum is the most likely answer and even a very small fee of five dollars per year would be more than enough to keep us online and advertising free but we felt the majority would not support a subscription based system. A forum that is supported by just a few members wouldn't be fair and we would be required to sign an annual contract for a commercial Internet connection so we would have to be sure of continued support.

We had also hoped that the manufacturers forums would take off and provide all the funding we would need but we didn't have the necessary marketing to get it off the ground. We also found that most companies are hesitant to get involved, fearing any negative comment made would be detrimental to their image.

Short of going to a subscription based system our only option is to transfer ownership to another company that has the resources and the wisdom to see the benefits to the Woodworking Community of providing a friendly place for us all to gather and share our experience. To me it is also important that we be able to speak freely without fear of being censored when we evaluate and review any tools, equipment or services. This is something we have all enjoyed at SMC and a host of companies have watched our forums very carefully. Many of our Members have received consideration that they might not have enjoyed otherwise, including myself so I know SMC has had a positive influence.

I will be commnicating with a large company again this week concerninig transfering ownership of SMC. I hope to have an answer by the end of the week. Losing SMC is preferable to having it go off-line so we will do whatever it takes to assure that we will at least have an opportunity to continue.

Dennis Peacock

10-08-2005, 10:21 PM

Keith and Jackie......

I too join the group in saying that I'm very sorry to hear that HRO is having to close. But this can be a good thing for you both in the days ahead. May you be blessed and prosper with whatever you undertake.

For keeping SMC alive? First it was Badger Pond.....then we moved over and SMC was born, thanks to you and Jackie. I understand the costs to a degree and I also know that the necessary bandwidth for SMC to run smoothly as it does today is NOT CHEAP!!!!

Why not $24 per year per member....like a magazine subscription? SMC is worth a LOT to many of us who have followed and known each other for years via the WW Forum. Surely SMC is worth $2 a month to most Creeker's. Right?

Just an idea.......At least here....I can meet my friends, get great advice and see the fine handy work and craftsmanship produced by my fine fellow woodworking family members.

I'm praying for the best for you and Jackie.......and for SMC to keep it's heart beating for as long as possible.

Jack Diemer

10-08-2005, 10:24 PM

Sorry about your business. Everyone here really appreciates what you have done for us. We will support you in whatever you decide. Thanks again for what you do.

Dev Emch

10-08-2005, 10:37 PM

Oh Boy, now what! First I have to say that it saddens me to read about the fate of what is happening. SMC is a valuable resource. The internet is big and encompassing but its also, quite frankly, a drag and a bore. For those of us with unique interests, the loss of SMC is difficult. Old iron and industrial woodworking is not a for profit enterprise even though many of its supporters use it to make a living. We have lost just about every major maker in this country and with it, the history and expertise of those workers. Restoring and working with the likes of oliver and porter is not easy and forums such as SMC have provided a channel to recruit new followers. Over the last 5 years, there has been a prodigous increase in the number of woodworkers restoring and using these industry rejects in the back corners of basement shops and garages that share space with, of all things, cars. Forums such as SMC and OWWM have been a type of glue holding all sorts of folks together along some generic lines of interest. The demographics of Old Arn supporters is all over the board as are the demographics of SMC folks. And as some of us like to refer to them, OWWM Recruits. So we all wish the best and hope this forum continues.

Now for my questions as I get off my soap box. First of all, I am confused. Keith, please help me out here to understand all this. First of all, who is HRO or Hampton Roads Online and how are you connected to this outfit. Second, my understanding is that you have a pro level woodworking shop. Is that shop also in jeoprody? Third, who has been paying for the SMC online expenses all this time?

Regards

Keith Outten

10-08-2005, 10:41 PM

Andrew Ault

10-08-2005, 10:58 PM

Keith,

My heart goes out to you. I've really enjoyed this place and have learned alot. I know personally what it's like to pour your heart into an enterprise and go from beginning to maturity and then having the larger market change and have to decide to close it or sell it. (I'm thinking right now about some really amazing experiences I've had - memories that are like a private place that I visit sometimes).

From the quality of what I see and the people you've attracted, I feel certain that you have more exciting and challenging endevors to come. I hope that like me you would not trade your coming experiences for anything.

I thank you for your efforts on the part of The Creek. I will budget a modest donation to add a few drops to the coming ocean needed to float this welcome haven.

Thanks, Keith.

Sincerely,
Andrew Ault

Keith Outten

10-08-2005, 11:00 PM

Dev,

Hampton Roads Online is an Internet Service Provider that Jackie and I started in 1995. We were originally a Bulletin Board Service that grew into an ISP. Several of our friends and familly joined us as stock owners along the way and we incorporated HRO in 1996.

Jackie has been running HRO for the last two years. As cable modems and inexpensive web site hosting started to eat at our customer base I had to leave the company in 2002. When Badger Pond went off-line HRO had plenty of bandwidth that we were not using so I offered to start SawMill Creek as a community service. HRO has been our sole sponsor since the begining providing free bandwidth and system adminstration for our server.

My workshop and the sign business I started last year is not in any jeopardy at this time. We have commmercial sign work under contract right now and expect to see continued growth through the fall and possibly the early winter seasons. I am also in the process of developing a line of Corian plaques and a host of other items to offer laser engravers to support their businesses. Soon we will be manufacturing Corian cutting boards, kitchen accessories and possibly doing some custom machining for other companies. I wish I had more time to develope my business, I would be able to continue to host and financially support SMC myself.

Steve Beadle

10-08-2005, 11:02 PM

Dennis,

It is a simple matter of the numbers, if half our members would be willing to pay ten dollars a year or everyone would be willing to pay five dollars per year we could easilly afford to pay a server administrator and bandwidth fees if we used a cable connection.

.
It's certainly worth all of that--and more--to me. I don't often contribute much to the discussions, but I log on several times a day usually, and I gain a lot of valuable advice and information, as well as enjoyment from the camaraderie. I hope some sort of a subscription service materializes! Best of luck to you and Jackie, Keith!

Jim Fancher

10-08-2005, 11:05 PM

I'd be willing to take ownership of the site and host it for free.

I own a few sites and would have no problem keeping SMC free for everyone.

Charlie Plesums

10-08-2005, 11:05 PM

Sorry about the demise of the HRO business... hope the sign business works well for all of you.

A concern/suggestion concerning subscriptions to SMC. If I had to pay even a dollar or two to find out how good it is, I would never have joined, since there are so many bad sites around. But having enjoyed SMC, I would gladly pay more than $5 or $10 per year to help support it. To keep that path open, I suggest that you (or whoever runs it) take one of two approaches...

the public radio approach... hard sell of memberships, but no enforcement of membership to participate, and enjoy the benefits. Membership might be $20 per year, with the hope that one in four or five would "join"
the "you gotta be a member to participate (post, send PMs, etc.), but can lurk for free" approach. Again with strong encouragement for lurkers to join.

Byron Trantham

10-08-2005, 11:09 PM

Keith, Jackie,
Thanks! Though I know you two want to see the Creek survive, I just want you two to know I want to see your private sign endeavor take off. You've been too good to us for a long time and it's your turn to get great things.

As has already been said, I too would be glad to contribute to the yearly costs to keep the Creek going. We are all anxious to see how this situation turns out but again, good luck with your sign shop.

Byron

John Lucas

10-08-2005, 11:25 PM

Keith, you earlier mentioned "if half of our members paid $10." I dont recall ever being "hit up" by SMC. I bet that there are thousands of others who are getting a free ride and don't know it.
It may be too late, but I suggest you get a billing/accounting system in place, working for you. It maya be nice to have a forum that works without dues and or pressure, BUT if the choice is being pestered vs. losing SMC, I will choose the pestering.
Don't be so subtle in asking for what is due you. Bill.

Andy Hoyt

10-08-2005, 11:38 PM

Keith & Jackie - I'm no corporate smartie, but perhaps there is a way to turn HRO and SMC into one of those Not for Profit corporations and then ask each member to make a $20 per year tax deductible donation.

My awareness of and participation on this site is still in its infancy; but has already become much more valuable to me than all the magazines I subscribe to (which cost much more and only consume a few hours a month of my time). How many hours a day do I spend here? Don't know, but expect that it's a whole bunch.

In the immediate short term, perhaps you could post a poll of members. Ask them what sort of price range they'd be willing to pay per year to keep this forum alive. Ask them if, by clicking a special button on that poll, if a donation can be counted on in the near term.

And redirect all visitors/members to the URL of this poll prior to taking them to the page they have bookmarked or are directed to via an email thread alert message. As such, you'd get an immediate response from everyone, including those silent yet valuable lurkers.

My guess is that this would give you guys and fairly healthy snapshot of your membership's willingness to participate in some self sustaining CPR. If nothing else it would show your potential buyer a higher value and make him that much more eager to close the deal.

In the meantime - Thank you both for building a wonderful community. Andy Hoyt

Jim Becker

10-08-2005, 11:50 PM

Andy, it would be complicated to incorporate SMC under IRS 501-C status, but it's not out of the question, especially with the Freedom Pens project and potential similar "works for the public good". AAW chapters are able to do this because of the educational nature of the clubs and a few other things. But it would also take time and money that may not be available. But it should be considered and be part of the discussion with an accounting professonal since a dues system or even a more formal donation situation may bring up tax and legal matters that the few dollars that some have already provided do not.

Bruce Page

10-08-2005, 11:54 PM

Jackie and Keith,
I'm sorry to hear of HRO’s closing. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help. SMC is such a great place that I would cheerfully pay a membership fee or contribute to any fund raising event.

Jim Becker

10-08-2005, 11:55 PM

I'd be willing to take ownership of the site and host it for free.

I own a few sites and would have no problem keeping SMC free for everyone.

Jim, do you maintain your own servers and infrastructure? Based on our back-channel discussion over the past month, it's best that the current SMC server be maintained--transferring it to someone else's servers complicates things. Also, check the bandwidth and pages served statistics that Keith has regularly posted in the "Support Forum"...it could have impact on both cost to host and other applications/sites you are already maintaining.

Bernie Weishapl

10-08-2005, 11:56 PM

Keith and Jackie, sorry to hear about HRO. I am like a lot of others here. I joined in January of this year. I was told by a member that this was the place to be, to learn and never be critized for not knowing something. I cannot believe how much I have learned and how many friends I have made here. I went thru a business closing and it isn't any fun, I know how you and Jackie feel.

I for one would not mind paying $5, $10, $15 or even $25 to keep SMC going. That is pretty cheap for the amount of knowledge you can gain from here and shoot all of us have magazine subscriptions that cost at least $25 per year. I bet if you polled every member on here 80 to 90 percent would chip in $5 or $10. I think all you have to do is ask.

l will understand and back any decision you make. If it goes I will miss it badly.

Bob Noles

10-09-2005, 12:53 AM

Keith/Jackie,

I am speechless over your loss and you will be kept in my prayers as well as so many others here. We know it will be a difficult journey ahead, but folks as kind and resourceful as you, will always land feet first. You have many friends here for support and must realize that if there is anything you need or that we can do, just give a shout.

Even in the face of such great personal difficulty, your kindness shines thru in making every effort to see the continunation of SMC. What great folks you are. How can we ever thank you for all you have done here.

Best of luck and God Bless you both.

Kelly C. Hanna

10-09-2005, 12:55 AM

Very sorry to hear that Keith. I know you and Jackie have worked very hard to keep things going. I hope that SMC will find a way to survive...let me know if we can help in any way. I also hope this will be the start of something better for the both of you.

Dan Forman

10-09-2005, 3:39 AM

Keith and Jackie---I was shocked to read the beginning of this thread. My thoughts are with you, and hope there is a smooth transition to your sign business. Changes such as this are always stressful, just remember that every time one door closes, another opens.

I would certainly be willing to subscribe if necessary to keep the Creek flowing. It has been an invaluable resource to me as a novice woodworker. Thanks to both of you for your efforts thus far.

Dan

Vaughn McMillan

10-09-2005, 4:18 AM

Keith and Jackie, first, thank you for providing this one-of-a-kind forum. I've seen nothing that has compared to SMC. It has quickly become a favorite resource, and one that I'd be willing to help support.

I listen to an Internet radio station that is supported by voluntary listener contributions. I get a lot out of the station, so I pitch in $20 every two or three months. To me, it's a fair deal, and a small expense compared to the benefit I get. I'd be very willing (and it's apparent others would, too) to be part of a similar support structure for SMC.

Regardless of the outcome of SMC, I wish the two of you all the best as your life takes one of those turns we all get to take from time to time. Thanks again.

- Vaughn

Randy Meijer

10-09-2005, 4:19 AM

Keith:

I am a member of IAP, a pen turning web site. Recently, they ran into a financial problem and solicited member contributions. I don't remember the specific details; but they raised about $3000 in 4 or 5 weeks, I think. The average contribution was about $25; but some were more and some were less. They got a little over a hundred contributions, as I remember.

I don't know how SMC compares to IAP in terms of membership or cost of operation; but I do know that people are willing to support "GOOD" operations with their hard earned greenbacks and I have no doubt that SMC has plenty of members who are willing to put their money where their mouths are!!!

Based on "active members" and yearly expenses, what do you think it would take per individual to keep this place operating??

I'm semi-retired so I watch my pennies; but I guarantee you I could scare up some change if you decide to go that route!!!

Ken Shoemaker

10-09-2005, 4:20 AM

Jackie and Keith,

I share the fellings of everyone here. My thoughts are with you as you move forward. Also, I eagerly await the moment I can "contribute" the dollars it takes to keep this valuable forum alive and well.

Lastly, I want to thank you guys for a wonderful experience......

Ian Barley

10-09-2005, 4:51 AM

Keith & Jackie
I am very sorry to hear that HRO has had to take this difficult decision. I really hope that you both find the new opportunities that you deserve and achieve from them the success that you want.

SMC is the most important place on the web for me. I suspect that I am not alone. I believe that the costs you have talked about are ludicrously small in comparison to the benefits that I recieve. I know that you are doing what you can to keep the servers going. When you say $5 per member does that mean 5000 * 5 = $25000 is the annual running cost? or are you thinking of a smaller number of active members. What I am trying to get at is that this site is worth $100/year to me easily. If the cost is 25K then there probably aren't 250 people who also think that. I would ask that before we lose this resource, if it comes down to a straight matter of $X will keep it going for a year then let us all know what $X is and see if we can raise it.

Bill Antonacchio

10-09-2005, 7:22 AM

Hi Keith and Jackie,

Let me add my voice to the chorus who offer your our sincere best wishes with your future endeavors. I am in a similar position as I attempt to transition from network consultant to application programmer. We all need to be ready to change our lives as need arises.

Good luck with the laser signage business!

As to SMC, that is why when I signed up as a member here after lurking for a few weeks I automatically made a donation to the Creek. I knew someone (YOU) was paying the rent and I felt with such a wonderful site as this it was my obligation to help defray the cost of all those great postings that had been uploaded for me to download and enjoy. Each one of those transactions (upload and download of a post) costs money and has to be paid for by someone. Donating $12.00 (I figured $1.00 a month and would continue to contribute that yearly) was a fair way to pay my way. This should be considered either by yourselves and/or whomever will get to decide the fate of SMC.

If enought members were to contribute at this level then a special "assessment" could be made if there were a need to update equipment (hardware or software) in the future that didn't fit the budget. I know we just had a multi-thousand dollar special assessment following the two hurricanes last year that did damage to our Home Owners Assocation assests, it is something you have to live with.

Maybe a joint project that many could contribute to could raise monies for future needs once the membership subscriptions were covering the normal operating expenses. A joint project could entail design, plan creation, material source contribution, layout of project, parts dimensioning, joinery, assemble testing, glueup, finishing, marketing, sales coordination. Each section of the country (and our overseas members too) of the major concentration of members could have their own project or a coordinated project could even be handled through the forum. We certainly have enough manpower and expertise to pull off one or two projects a year that could be sold through some medium (gallery, existing custom shop, SMC forum, or other internet method [baying?]) to generate some funds and be a very interesting way to bring the creekers even closer together.

Regards,
Bill Antonacchio

Tony Falotico

10-09-2005, 8:03 AM

Keith & Jackie, First and foremost Thank You, Thank You, Thank You for providing this forum, it has been a home away from home for me, a wonderful place to come to after an aggravating day at the office. My heart aches at the thought of losing SMC.

With that said, If there is any way I can encouraged you to continue on a subscription basis and NOT GO COMMERCIAL, please consider it. I do believe we have enough base membership that will carry SMC though membership fees which will allow full access to the site. As for new members, leave it open as a READ ONLY site for non members. Once folks see what SMC has to offer, They can decide to jump in or not. Also, I truly believe memberships with fees will enhance our community by keeping the 'dead beats' and those with phony real names out. And if you realize a small profit out of, so much the better.

My $0.02 worth, whatever you decide my best to you and your new sign venture.

Tom Hamilton

10-09-2005, 8:16 AM

Keith:

Transitions are always difficult. Especially when you have created something from nothing and added value along the way.

You have created a viable business and a valuable asset. Fortunately, in a free enterprise system, the market will respond according by pricing that asset.

Dennis Peacock, as usual, offered insightful counsel. $24 per year or $36 per year, it really doesn't matter, but there is value in SMC that can be converted to cash.

Where is the "shopping cart" and "checkout" link to sign up for a year's subscription? ;)

Congratulations on a successful venture; blessings on the next phase of your life and thanks for making SMC such a useful resource.

TJH

John Bailey

10-09-2005, 8:17 AM

Keith and Jackie,

I wish you all the best in the future. I have no doubt that you will be succesful. The "Creek" is too good to have been run by luck. Whatever talent, brains and work was needed to start and implement this site, you have it, and you've got plenty.

By now you've probably seen my post concerning raising some funds. It's my belief this site will continue to prosper only if those that developed it continue to have input. I would encourage you to stay involved somehow. I felt the need to try to do something about the finances. I've raised a lot of money over the years as a high school principal, and I've found that sometimes it's best to just explain the situation in simple terms and let people respond. It almost always works if the need is there because folks appriciate a place like SMC.

Whatever you decide, best wishes and good luck. (Although luck usually involves talent and hard work, and thus, the luck is rarely needed.)

John

John Renzetti

10-09-2005, 8:47 AM

Keith and Jackie, You've done a great job here and I really appreciate everything you have both done to put SMC where it is today.
All the best with your woodworking business.
take care,
John

John Shuk

10-09-2005, 9:18 AM

I have to echo what everyone else has said. I'm sorry you've come to this. I don't worry about your future success too much because you seem resourceful and motivated. I am sad to see you lose what you have worked so hard for though.
John

Richard Wolf

10-09-2005, 9:45 AM

wow:confused::confused:

Richard

George Matthews

10-09-2005, 9:52 AM

This news is disturbing indeed... :eek:

Even though I have only been a member less than a year, I feel like I've have many years of benefits, and would not wish to see SMC dry up.

I do appreciate the 'real world' issues, such as expenses. I ran my own business for many years and have also made the difficult decision to close.

To keep SMC going you need a hosting site and associated server admin fees. It's not unreasonable to add some additional revenue for your services!

Why not setup a quarterly request for donations, similar to the PBS protocol. As donations flow in, we would know how close we were to the goal of keeping SMC going.

Donations could be suggested.

$55 Reader
$45 Occasional Contributor ( less than 100 posts )
$35 Contributor ( more than 1000 posts )
$0 Moderator

Contributions should be made public?

You have already contributed more than any reasonable reader should expect, and I do hope that you can find a way to extend SMC's life and also make a reasoable living.

Jim O'Dell

10-09-2005, 10:06 AM

Keith, I'm with everyone else. I'm on board to help support SMC financially if that is the way you and Jackie decide to take this. I know you have weighed multiple possibilities, probably over the last 6 months or so, hoping and working that it would not come to this. It seems to have happened very quickly to most of us, but my bet is that you have been dealing with the possibilities for a while now.
We all know that SMC is your 'baby', and I will say now that you should do nothing that is not in your best interest. Knowing full well that you want what is best for SMC, I want only what is best for you and Jackie. My heart goes out to you at this time. Know that we will be here to support you and your decision, whatever it may be. Jim

Jim Fancher

10-09-2005, 11:35 AM

Jim, do you maintain your own servers and infrastructure? Based on our back-channel discussion over the past month, it's best that the current SMC server be maintained--transferring it to someone else's servers complicates things. Also, check the bandwidth and pages served statistics that Keith has regularly posted in the "Support Forum"...it could have impact on both cost to host and other applications/sites you are already maintaining.

Transferring a site that uses VB and a MYSQL database isn't technically challenging. I own over 50 websites. The one most similar to SMC is http://www.OdyClub.com that uses the same forum software, but has an actual website built around it. It also has 20,000+ members.

As I've PM'ed Keith, capacity and bandwidth are not a problem. I'd be able to keep SMC free for the members just as OdyClub.com has been free for 5 years.

This is a chance to keep SMC "in the family".

Jim Becker

10-09-2005, 11:42 AM

Thanks. Jim. It was a question I had to ask. The Ody' site looks great!

Jim Fancher

10-09-2005, 12:02 PM

Thanks. Jim. It was a question I had to ask. The Ody' site looks great!

Thanks Jim! The site is getting stale and is being redesigned. Yeah, my "real life" never really comes up in conversation here. :D

Jim Becker

10-09-2005, 12:09 PM

TYeah, my "real life" never really comes up in conversation here.

You mean woodworking isn't your real life and the day-job just a dream? :D

Ted Calver

10-09-2005, 12:36 PM

How's about one of youse smart computer guys creating a sticky Subscription Sign-up thread or one of those things where you can vote for various options i.e. subscribe yes, no, for $1-5, $6-10, $10-20, or more, annually, etc. so we can get an idea of how serious people are in supporting SMC. IMHO I frankly don't care if some folks ride for free, if a core of steady donors can keep the doors open for everybody.

Jim Fancher

10-09-2005, 1:22 PM

You mean woodworking isn't your real life and the day-job just a dream? :D

I'm a wood geek wannabe. :D

My real job is System Administrator for Mitsubishi. Sawdust takes me as far away from my everyday life as I can get. :)

Frank Hagan

10-09-2005, 3:19 PM

Transferring a site that uses VB and a MYSQL database isn't technically challenging. I own over 50 websites. The one most similar to SMC is http://www.OdyClub.com (http://www.odyclub.com/) that uses the same forum software, but has an actual website built around it. It also has 20,000+ members.

As I've PM'ed Keith, capacity and bandwidth are not a problem. I'd be able to keep SMC free for the members just as OdyClub.com has been free for 5 years.

This is a chance to keep SMC "in the family".

Jim, the only problem I see with the shared server you are on is the other sites sharing the server's IP address. There are several domains that may get it listed on the blacklists which can interfere with access for some members, especially if they are accessing from work.

But that aside, your solution is similar to the one I had proposed, and I think it makes the most sense. [edited to add this:] It would be the best solution possible.

Subscription sites rarely work without the owner realizing he still has to devote the time and money for those months when things fall short. It would be far better for a few members to pony up enough to get SMC on a shared server for a year (~$240 a year or so) and then allow unobtrusive Google ads, an Amazon.com affilliate page and donations accrue for the next year.

A forum, even one of this size, does not need a dedicated server, even with the 8 - 10 GB of bandwidth. My boat building forum does about half that each month, and works fine. Your odyclub.com site is probably larger than this one, and it is on a shared server.

John Shuk

10-09-2005, 4:04 PM

Bruce Shiverdecker

10-09-2005, 5:20 PM

Keith and Jackie:

Like some of the others, I don't know what to say, except that this site, with your efforts in making it what it is, is one of the best out there. I am also willing to help monetarily to keep the site up and running, partly because of The FPP. I do not see it continuing without this sites support.

Bruce

Christopher Stahl

10-09-2005, 5:52 PM

I'm a wood geek wannabe. :D

My real job is System Administrator for Mitsubishi. Sawdust takes me as far away from my everyday life as I can get. :)

Jim, I'm also a sysadmin/freelance programmer and I would be happy to help if you take over the sight. I used to work for a major 3D animation studio and moved back home to PA to get away from the stress so I could live life on my terms. Just say the word.

chris

Jim Fancher

10-09-2005, 7:15 PM

Jim, I'm also a sysadmin/freelance programmer and I would be happy to help if you take over the sight. I used to work for a major 3D animation studio and moved back home to PA to get away from the stress so I could live life on my terms. Just say the word.

chris

Thanks Chris, but it won't be happening. I'll be in touch on another project.

Keith Outten

10-09-2005, 7:20 PM

Geez Folks,

We have been overwhelmed with donations, I think Jackie is doing an official tally right now and should be posting the results in the thread that John Bailey started. Our Members have spoken loud and clear so we will order an Internet connection tomrrow and when it is installed we will let everyone know which day we will move the SMC server.

Please go to John's thread for further information.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24984

Jim Engel

10-09-2005, 7:59 PM

Transferring a site that uses VB and a MYSQL database isn't technically challenging. I own over 50 websites. The one most similar to SMC is http://www.OdyClub.com that uses the same forum software, but has an actual website built around it. It also has 20,000+ members.

As I've PM'ed Keith, capacity and bandwidth are not a problem. I'd be able to keep SMC free for the members just as OdyClub.com has been free for 5 years.

This is a chance to keep SMC "in the family".

Do you mean PHP and MySQL ?

Aaron Koehl

10-09-2005, 8:10 PM

A forum, even one of this size, does not need a dedicated server, even with the 8 - 10 GB of bandwidth. My boat building forum does about half that each month, and works fine. Your odyclub.com site is probably larger than this one, and it is on a shared server.

Just as a note, SawmillCreek is many times the size of OdyClub.com. Before compression, we were doing 100 Gigabytes of transfer per month. SawmillCreek definitely requires it's own server in order to provide the speed and response that we already do.

Aaron Koehl

10-09-2005, 8:11 PM

VB = vBulletin. I missed that the first time too..

Frank Pellow

10-09-2005, 8:25 PM

Frank Hagan

10-09-2005, 8:37 PM

Just as a note, SawmillCreek is many times the size of OdyClub.com. Before compression, we were doing 100 Gigabytes of transfer per month. SawmillCreek definitely requires it's own server in order to provide the speed and response that we already do.

Yep, at that size you do need a dedicated server! I was looking at a post showing less than 10GB, which is definately do-able in a shared environment. Your cost for the 768k line is less than a dedicated server in a data center, so it looks like you have things just where they need to be (and why are we not surprised by that! You obviously know what you're doing).

Jules Dominguez

10-09-2005, 10:12 PM

I'd be willing to pay dues or a subscription to keep it going. It would certainly be worth it to me.

Peter Gavin

10-10-2005, 12:52 PM

Although I am extremely grateful to jim Fancher for his offer to host SMC, I was unable to access the site he pointed to from work due to my compnay blocking the site. Please try to find a way to keep the creek open that that doesn't happen to me on. I'm being selfish I guess, but I'll triple my donation to keep it accessible at work.

Thanks

Peter

Aaron Koehl

10-10-2005, 3:14 PM

I guess it comes with being an ISP for nearly 11 years ;)

Aaron Koehl

10-10-2005, 3:16 PM

Lloyd Frisbee

10-10-2005, 3:46 PM

Thanks Jackie, Keith and Aaron and Ken! If I didn't have SMC to read everyday at work I would have to well......work! :eek: I just hit the donate for $20. I proudly wear my SMC cap and look forward to seeing SMC flourish until I can no longer create sawdust. Keep up the great work. To all the members, you are as much resposible for the success of SMC as the moderators because you make it a joy for the mods to do their jobs. The wealth of help and information gleaned from here is indeed priceless.

Lloyd Frisbee
Silicon Valley Woodturners
San Jose, CA