Salmen Master Oil Stone.

[Stewie Simpson]

Another stone I recently purchased from the U.K. (Most likely the last honing stone I am going to purchase.)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0311_zps1djzhgzd.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0311_zps1djzhgzd.jpg.html)

The top surface of the stone showed no obvious signs to its origin.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0309_zpsg4p5yfy8.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0309_zpsg4p5yfy8.jpg.html)

But the underside was quite different, and the primary reason I chose to bid on this stone. The grain pattern indicated a natural stone, and not a man made stone.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0310_zpsgve0abtd.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0310_zpsgve0abtd.jpg.html)

Flat sanding with 220, followed by 400 grit w & d, highlighted it as being a quick release slurry stone, of a soft to medium hardness. The swirly grain pattern was now much more obvious to see after a light spray of water.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0312_zpsj8fcwqtg.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0312_zpsj8fcwqtg.jpg.html)

The next photo shows the sedimentary layering within the stones side grain.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0313_zpsmbexpkqc.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0313_zpsmbexpkqc.jpg.html)

Additional information;

Dimensions; 20.1 cm x 5.3 cm x 2.5 cm. (266 cm3)

Weight; 740 grams.

Specific Gravity (SF) = 2.78

Conclusion; the stone appears to be a highly featured Scotch Dalmore Blue. Possibly better suited to water as a lubricant than thin oil. A quick release slurry stone, suggesting a fast cutting stone. A high range in SF, indicating a large % of fine particles within its make up.

I would rate this as a high value/ high quality honing stone, purchased at a remarkably cheap price.

Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

You're starting to become an expert! I really like how this stone looks. Would be nice for my bathroom floor...

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Kees; I have no intention of wanting to be any expert on natural honing stone identity. Its too contentious a subject.

regards Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

Yes it is a very broad subject. I quickly let go after purchasing a few arkansas stones. I usually get a bit light in my head when reading discussions about Japanese natural waterstones for example.

[Bill Houghton]

You're starting to become an expert! I really like how this stone looks. Would be nice for my bathroom floor...
Your family might get upset, though, when they couldn't get in the bathroom because you were sharpening all your chisels and plane irons.

That is a really lovely stone. Too bad the company selling it didn't know how to spell "salmon."

[Mel Fulks]

Agree it's Dalmore Blue Scottish stone. Used often before Water Of Ayr. They were sometimes sold as back to back stone.
And there is a Dalmore Yellow coarser stone.

[Stewie Simpson]

imo; a good quality natural sharpening stone is one that will shows signs of releasing a natural cutting slurry. Any stone that is within the higher range of hardness, that show no signs of releasing a cutting slurry is of limited value to the woodworker, and does require the use of an independent slurry stone to enhance its rate of cut. In other words, there can be clear differences between the needs of woodworker, and that of a straight razor user.

Stewie;

[Warren Mickley]

imo; a good quality natural sharpening stone is one that will shows signs of releasing a natural cutting slurry. Any stone that is within the higher range of hardness, that show no signs of releasing a cutting slurry is of limited value to the woodworker, and does require the use of an independent slurry stone to enhance its rate of cut. In other words, there can be clear differences between the needs of woodworker, and that of a straight razor user.

Stewie;

I have used Arkansas stones for chisels, plane irons, carving tools, and straight razors for forty years. I have never used a slurry stone for any operation. What is the problem?

[Patrick Chase]

Another stone I recently purchased from the U.K. (Most likely the last honing stone I am going to purchase.)

I doubt very much that you're capable of stopping. Come on, just one more.... :-)

[Stewie Simpson]

I have used Arkansas stones for chisels, plane irons, carving tools, and straight razors for forty years. I have never used a slurry stone for any operation. What is the problem?

Warren; I was unimpressed with the performance of the J.Smith Ark I recently posted. I am going to bleed this stone of any trace of oil, and trial it with water as a lubricant.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

The process of cleansing the Arkansas stone of oil has started. Boiling hot water and 2 dishwasher power balls.

Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0315_zpsblg1to7y.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0315_zpsblg1to7y.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0316_zpsqogaijxs.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0316_zpsqogaijxs.jpg.html)

[Stewie Simpson]

After 1 hr, the dishwasher power balls have lost their effectiveness within the oil cleansing process. The following photo shows the oil residue that's already released from the stone.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0317_zpstczvsyby.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0317_zpstczvsyby.jpg.html)

The process needs to be repeated again to further rid the stone of oil. The contaminated water has to be emptied out, cleaned out with dishwasher detergent, and refilled with boiling hot water, ready for 2 fresh dishwasher power balls.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0318_zpsatkrka3u.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0318_zpsatkrka3u.jpg.html)

To slow down the loss of temperature within the water, seal the top of the container. Check again in 1 hrs time. Note any further loss of oil from the stone via the appearance of the water. Repeat a 3rd time if its deemed necessary.

I will supply some later feedback on the results of testing the oil free Arkansas stone with water as the lubricant.

Stewie;

[David Eisenhauer]

Stupid question - What happens if you leave the stone (and the soap) in a continuously simmering pot? Bring it up to a boil then back it off some to sort of control things. Duck and run? End of Times? Nuclear?

[Stewie Simpson]

An update on the oil cleansing process. I noticed that some oil had been trapped on the underside of the stone during the 2nd round.
I opted for a 3rd round lasting only 30 min, this time making sure that I gently lifted the stone from side to side within its water bath to allow the loose oil to rise to the top of the water.

A few important comments to add; if the stone is not Novaculite within its structure, it may not survive without cracking after being submerged in boiling water. That being the case, it would be better to lower the temp of water. Also, make sure that the bottom of the stone be raised slightly above the bottom of the container to allow the water bath to better penetrate all sides of the stone. A couple of short brass or stainless steel rods would do the trick. Rinse the stone in fresh clean water and dry at the end of the cleansing process.

The following photos shows the stones colour change after completing the oil cleansing process.

After the 1st bath;
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0317_zpstczvsyby.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0317_zpstczvsyby.jpg.html)

After the 3rd and final bath;
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0319_zpsrz9emc5w.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0319_zpsrz9emc5w.jpg.html)

Stewie;

[Thomas Schneider]

Hi Stewie, Thanks for taking the time to post this. I have a few estate sale stones that I might try this with.

Tom.

[Stewie Simpson]

Good to hear Tom. A word of caution. Don't use this process on man-made Norton Crystolon/Carborundum Oil Stones.

regards Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

As requested; I am forwarding the feedback after testing the Arkansas stone with water as the only lubricant. The 1st observation to note was that after spraying the top surface of the stone with water, the water did not soak within the stone, but maintained a unified float of film. That indicates to me that the stone is not porous by nature, but more tightly bound within its make up.

The 2nd observation to make is that when the stone surface was being worked by the chisel, the sound being given off was much deeper in tone to that experienced when oil was used as lubricant. A much more grittier sound. One could feel the chisels edge being worked in closer contact with the grain structure of the stone, versus having a float of oil interfere between the 2 surfaces.

The time taken to form an appreciable secondary bevel imo was 1/2 that compared to using oil, but apologies need to be made, as I did nor record the exact time difference. The sheen formed on the secondary bevel, to my eyes, looked no different to that being worked on oil, but one would expect it to be slightly lower.

The level of sharpness straight from the stone more than matched my requirements within woodworking, as testament by the paper test shown within the 2 following photo's.

Conclusion; as a once only test, I see no valid reason to return to using oil on this Arkansas stone. If any issues later arise on the question of water versus oil in preventing the stones surface from glazing over or clogging up, that would be dealt with during the normal practice of resurfacing during periodical stone flattening.

All attempts have been made to remain impartial within my findings.

Hopefully you found the above mentioned topic of some interest. If you decide to de-oil any of your sharpening stones in the future, make sure they are not a man-made Norton Crystolon/Carborundum, as this will likely destroy the manufacturers oil pre-fill.

On to the photo's.

regards Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0320_zpstmjqfmle.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0320_zpstmjqfmle.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0321_zpsrz1cgkzm.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0321_zpsrz1cgkzm.jpg.html)

[Jim Koepke]

Hopefully you found the above mentioned topic of some interest.

Yes, it is of interest.

This makes me wonder if the water versus oil preference on hard stones is due to the possibility of water causing rust?

Currently in my shop it is getting to the time of year where it is too cold to use my water stones. Even today without the water being frozen, it didn't seem appealing to soak my stones and then pick them out of a 34º water bath. Besides it is likely going to be colder tonight. Leaving wet water stones out when it might dip below freezing doesn't seem like a good idea.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

The time taken to form an appreciable secondary bevel imo was 1/2 that compared to using oil, but apologies need to be made, as I did nor record the exact time difference. The sheen formed on the secondary bevel, to my eyes, looked no different to that being worked on oil, but one would expect it to be slightly lower.

What sort of oil were you using?

My guess is that you're seeing faster cutting with water due to its lower viscosity and therefore lower tendency for the tool to "float" above the abrasive peaks of the stone. If that's the case then you might be able to get a similar benefit with a lower-viscosity oil, like kerosene or mineral spirits.

[Jim Koepke]

What sort of oil were you using?

My guess is that you're seeing faster cutting with water due to its lower viscosity and therefore lower tendency for the tool to "float" above the abrasive peaks of the stone. If that's the case then you might be able to get a similar benefit with a lower-viscosity oil, like kerosene or mineral spirits.

How are kerosene or mineral spirits on bare skin?

Sometimes my gloves with the fingertips cut off are worn when sharpening. Nitrile or latex gloves don't work for me when trying to sharpen.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

What sort of oil were you using?

My guess is that you're seeing faster cutting with water due to its lower viscosity and therefore lower tendency for the tool to "float" above the abrasive peaks of the stone. If that's the case then you might be able to get a similar benefit with a lower-viscosity oil, like kerosene or mineral spirits.

Patrick; I have been using Dan's Honing Oil. Appreciate your advice on the use of a spirit based lubricant, but I am not going to start spraying a spirit base over my stones, due to concerns with the volatile fumes, and other long term safety concerns. The water spray will do just fine for this particular stone.

Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

What kind of Arkansas stone is this Stewie? Soft, hard?

[Stewie Simpson]

Kees; based on its SG of 2.37, its ranked within the hard range of Ark. http://www.danswhetstone.com/stone_grades_101.htm

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

This makes me wonder if the water versus oil preference on hard stones is due to the possibility of water causing rust?

After using water as a lubricant on any of my stones, I end the honing process by wiping the blades surface down with honing oil as a precautionary measure against rusting.

Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

I only have a translucent Arkansas and a Washita. I agree with you that the cutting speed of these stones ain't great. I use the Washita as an intermediate stone and the translucent more like a wire edge management stone. It works great to remove the wire edge, it does polish the bevel a little better then the washita, but it is hard to see any progress when trying to remove some steel. It does cut of course (the stone becomes black) but very slowly.

Likewise the Washita is slow. David Weaver uses a Washita in a one stone sharpening system, but he relies heavilly on a grinder to keep the hollow as wide as possible. I don't really like to use the grinder that much, it's a noisy and dusty machine. So I use a fine India as a first stone on almost any sharpening job. That stone removes steel quickly and creates a huge wire edge in no time at all.

So, maybe I am understanding something not quite about these oilstones, but this is what I ended up with. I really am not going to revert back to using water on any of my stones, I like the oil too much.

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Kees; there's a common statement commonly referred too by users of honing stones; if you start using oil on a stone, you should continue using oil on that stone. There is relevance within that statement to the fact that, if you wanted to change over to water, you would 1st need to leech the stone of existing oil. But there is an opposite argument that can be put forth, that being, the stone may actually perform better with water.

I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone. I can only think of 1 from my own experience, and that would be some of the darker Hindostans. Due to their high properties within Iron Oxide, the use of water would turn the stones surface to a Rust Oxide, which is something most would likely want to avoid, as a measure to protect the integrity of the stone itself, and the tool being worked.

Now, returning to the discussion on Ark Stones. As you mentioned from your own experience, Arks are more than likely slow cutters, primarily as they fail to release any cutting slurry to assist to rate of cut. I don't have a great deal of experience with Arks or Wahita, but from my experience with other nat stones oil as a lubricant can be used to slow the rate of cut within any given nat stone due to the inherent viscous film it generates between the 2 surfaces being worked. This Ark stone that was the basis behind me started this thread, is a very slow cutting stone, unsuitable for my needs as a woodworker. I had 2 choices available, 1 was to put the stone aside and let it gather dust through lack of use, or 2, leech the stone of existing oil and trial it with water as the surface lubricant. As you have been following this thread, you would know that I went ahead with leaching the stone of oil, and tested this Ark with water. There was a notable improvement in the cutting performance of this stone, to the level that will see its further within fine honing my woodworking chisels and irons.

I have learnt a great deal from this journey, and hopefully by sharing that experience with other forum members, they will have gained a similar experience.

Appreciate your feedback Kees.

I was hoping for a bit more feedback from other forum members, but that's okay.

regards Stewie;

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks for the info Stewie.

I am certainly not going to switch to water myself. The oil just has too many benefits (been a waterstone user for a long time...). I found my solution in the fine India as a primary stone.

[Stewie Simpson]

As mentioned previously, I have no intention of buying more honing stones. So that in itself will represent the end of my threads on nat stones. (you can breath easy now gents).

I still have a side hinge sharpening box to make for the Scotch Dalmore Blue. That's a few weeks away from completing, and will represent the last time I post a thread dedicated to making a sharpening stone box..

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks for the info Stewie.

I am certainly not going to switch to water myself. The oil just has too many benefits (been a waterstone user for a long time...). I found my solution in the fine India as a primary stone.

Fully understand Kees; we all need to seek our own journey within the type and method we use our honing stones.

All the best wishes to you and your family over the xmas/ new year period.

Stewie

[Kees Heiden]

Best wishes to you too Stewie, and looking forward to new adventures in 2017 :)

[Warren Mickley]

Some neden oyle for to whette.

349073

The reason we use oil is so we don't have to spend time cleaning the stone.

[Andy Nichols]

Thanks for posting this, have used Arkansas stones most of my life, but know very little about them.

My Grandfather, born around 1890, used oil on stones for wood tools and water for knives....his professions were running a sawmill, blacksmith and butcher, plus both his Father and Grandfather had sawmills.

Asking why he used oil for one and water for the other never occurred to me, but I switched all of my Arkansas stones to water decades ago.....

Mos Maiorum,

Andy

[Karl Andersson]

Warren, you've posted that excerpt before; what do you suppose it means saying (roughly) 'but oil makes it smooth and water makes the edge fully sharp'? Which is the final step - the sharpening or the smoothing? it seems the quotation is saying you'd need both oil and water stones.
regards,
Karl

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, you've posted that excerpt before; what do you suppose it means saying (roughly) 'but oil makes it smooth and water makes the edge fully sharp'? Which is the final step - the sharpening or the smoothing? it seems the quotation is saying you'd need both oil and water stones.
regards,
Karl

Thanks for taking an interest in this Karl. My main idea was to point out that stones had been segregated into oil stones and water stones for a long time. This quote is from a 13th century English translation of a 12th century Latin text written in England by Bartholomeus. And as you can see he references Isidore, who wrote in the 7th century.

I interpret the quote similarly to you, Karl, that the water stone sharpens and the oil stone polishes the edge. In 18th century England and France they had grinding wheels and rub stones for coarse removal. Rub stones are flat grindstones. They had finer ragg stones, which were probably water stones also and are sometimes referred to as schisty. Then the oil stones (turkey stones and others) were for polishing.

I think coarse oil stones are a relatively recent invention.

[Stewie Simpson]

While purchasing different types of 2nd hand natural stones from the uk, I found it astonishing that nearly all of these stones have been used long term with oil. Why in the u.k. What was the impetus to not use water. Was it based on concerns with rust, the cooler wetter climate, or long held tradition. I honestly have no idea.

Take for example the condition I received the following Welsh Idwall Grecian Hone. Caked in years of oil use, inhibiting its capacity to function effectively. And why would you choose to use oil in the 1st place with this type of stone.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/new%20stropping%20block/natural%20honing%20stones%20purchased%20from%20the %20uk/_DSC0217_zpsdmukaxqe.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/new%20stropping%20block/natural%20honing%20stones%20purchased%20from%20the %20uk/_DSC0217_zpsdmukaxqe.jpg.html)

And here is the same stone after being cleaned up.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/new%20stropping%20block/natural%20honing%20stones%20purchased%20from%20the %20uk/_DSC0219_zps2bvqh6w9.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/new%20stropping%20block/natural%20honing%20stones%20purchased%20from%20the %20uk/_DSC0219_zps2bvqh6w9.jpg.html)

And here is the same stone being used today to hone a spokeshave blade. Its now a water stone. A quick wipe down with a damp rag, and the stone surface is ready for use next time its needed.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/spokeshave%20sharpen/_DSC0322_zpsbumanowi.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/spokeshave%20sharpen/_DSC0322_zpsbumanowi.jpg.html)

And look at the condition of the Ark stone when I received it. Covered in years of oil use. Its no wonder is was a terribly slow cutter..

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/new%20stropping%20block/natural%20honing%20stones%20purchased%20from%20the %20uk/_DSC0295_zpsqde2gueo.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/new%20stropping%20block/natural%20honing%20stones%20purchased%20from%20the %20uk/_DSC0295_zpsqde2gueo.jpg.html)

The same Ark after being leeched of old oil and now a dedicated to water stone.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0320_zpstmjqfmle.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/removing%20oil%20from%20arkansas%20stone/_DSC0320_zpstmjqfmle.jpg.html)

And the packaging on this Salmen U.K stone. It states USE WITH FINE OIL.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0311_zps1djzhgzd.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0311_zps1djzhgzd.jpg.html)

Why would you use oil on a quality Scotch Dalmore Blue.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0312_zpsj8fcwqtg.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0312_zpsj8fcwqtg.jpg.html)

Stewie;

[Warren Mickley]

Stewie, I think you are wrong to assume that some flea market hone was last used by some fine, well trained artisan. Fine craftsmen have been few and far between for a lot more than a century. More likely, some pitiful specimen was last used by a handyman, home owner, or hack. People have found deeply dished stones and suggested that serious craftsmen in centuries past used such trash, but it could have been just some gardener sharpening a hoe.

Another questionable assumption is the idea that one can evaluate a stone in an hour or even afternoon of discovery. A stone can behave quite differently when a worker has found just the right pressure to make it perform. When Japanese water stones were becoming popular here in America, Norton announced that they were going to develop water stones specifically designed for the American market. I read that as specifically designed for beginners. The product is quite different if it has to perform right away for someone used to a quite different style of stone or someone who is just starting out. A stone that takes skill and practice, that takes some touch to use is banished from this world.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, I think you are wrong to assume that some flea market hone was last used by some fine, well trained artisan. Fine craftsmen have been few and far between for a lot more than a century.

Warren; Its likely your statement is influenced by what has occurred within your own country.

regards Stewie;

[Warren Mickley]

Warren; Its likely your statement is influenced by what has occurred within your own country.

regards Stewie;

I am offering an explanation of why the stones that Stewie from Australia buys from England might not arrive in the shape one might expect from a fine craftsman. I don't see where my own country comes into play in this situation.

Maybe an English craftsman could offer a better explanation of why a stone would be "Caked in years of oil use, inhibiting its capacity to function effectively." Or maybe better stones or better advice could be gotten in Australia.

[Charles Guest]

An oilstone used with a petroleum based oil and wiped down after use simply cannot cake. Even if not wiped it's hard for it to cake. If there was a solid, caked-on grunge I suspect the stone was used with a vegetable oil like linseed oil or something else. These are drying oils and hence the 'caking.' If the stones were used with linseed oil that's an immediate tip off that the last person to use it was anything but a fine craftsman.

The chances that a bona fide craftsman would let his daily go-to stone go completely to pot are just about nil, as are the chances a recently bought stone off EBay came out of the operation of a just-retired or perhaps recently deceased fine craftsman. If this were the case you'd probably see the entire kit coming to market and a reference in each item's description about the craftsman and the other items up for auction out of his kit.

[ken hatch]

Many of of the older writers (maybe not many but at least some) mention using Neatsfoot oil. The mentions are so off hand it gives the impression that everyone knows Neatsfoot oil is the correct oil to use on Ark stones. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I changed to using Neatsfoot oil and my stones do not glaze as quickly as they did with thinner oils and the thicker oil does not seem to slow the stone. I expect some of that is technique but that is the case using oil or water stones natural or otherwise.

[Jim Koepke]

How long does long gone grandpa's stone sit on a shelf before one of his heirs decides it is time to let it go?

How often might it have been that grandpa was given some rancid 'salet oyl' by grandma and asked if he could use it for anything? (Once saw a reference to 'salet oyl' in regards to a honing stone.)

We can only speculate on how the craftsmen/women of days gone by might have taken care of their stones, tools or shops. They came up through many different environments. Some were carpenters, some built boats. Others built furniture while others may have only done cabinets. If a person learns at a young age to use a vegetable oil, mineral oil or kerosene it is likely that is what they will use for the rest of their days if someone can not convince them of some other stone lubricant being better. Most people do not possess the openness of mind to change their course due to a mere suggestion.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

Many of of the older writers (maybe not many but at least some) mention using Neatsfoot oil. The mentions are so off hand it gives the impression that everyone knows Neatsfoot oil is the correct oil to use on Ark stones. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I changed to using Neatsfoot oil and my stones do not glaze as quickly as they did with thinner oils and the thicker oil does not seem to slow the stone. I expect some of that is technique but that is the case using oil or water stones natural or otherwise.

Absolutely! I'd still be using were it not for how thick it gets when cold though one reads old references that mention putting it on with a stick. It would certainly cling to one if a little chilled. Guess it didn't bother the old guys. It has a feel that tends toward greasy but it certainly holds the swarf in suspension with no problem.

[Pat Barry]

Stewie, this was labeled as an oil stone. Why did you want it to be a waterstone? What is the big advantage you see of it being a waterstone?

No doubt that either oil or water can be used. I think that guys need an oil stone to make sure their stone doesn't fracture from freezing. Water obviously doesn't have the oily mess.

[Stewie Simpson]

Pat; regardless of what it states on the box, I have a preference not to use oil on a Scotch Dalmore Blue.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Absolutely! I'd still be using were it not for how thick it gets when cold though one reads old references that mention putting it on with a stick. It would certainly cling to one if a little chilled. Guess it didn't bother the old guys. It has a feel that tends toward greasy but it certainly holds the swarf in suspension with no problem.

Charles; you must be joking with that recommendation of Neatsfoot oil.

[Charles Guest]

Charles; you must be joking with that recommendation of Neatsfoot oil.

Absolutely not. Works great, just not so good in an inadequately heated shop. If your hands crack in the winter it'll cure them in less than a week. Totally inert, not petroleum based. There's a lot to like about it.

[Charles Guest]

Concrete degreaser really obviates the need for heat, etc. It'll strip a stone completely free of oil and the original factory filling as well (for synthetics). Just mix it up in a bucket at the recommended dilution or slightly stronger, drop it in, and leave it for a few days.

[ken hatch]

Absolutely! I'd still be using were it not for how thick it gets when cold though one reads old references that mention putting it on with a stick. It would certainly cling to one if a little chilled. Guess it didn't bother the old guys. It has a feel that tends toward greasy but it certainly holds the swarf in suspension with no problem.

Charles,

Living in the SW desert I seldom have a too cold shop so no problem with thickening. I wonder if a little kerosine would thin it enough and still keep the swarf suspension.

BTW, sometimes folks can learn something with close reading of the literature, just saying:).

ken

[Jim Koepke]

In reference to Neatsfoot oil:


Totally inert, not petroleum based. There's a lot to like about it.

I just can't get the image out of my mind of all of those sad faced Neats running around on stumps. :(

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

Stewie, if that Dalmore Blue was in the Salmen box I think it's got to be a mistake. There is a different box on Google pics
labeled Salmen Oil Stone that says in the corner "genuine Yellow Lake". And the pics of Salmon oil stones do not show the patterns of Dalmore. Dalmore is from Scotland and Yellow Lake from England or Wales. Dalmore is the more expensive stone. I think it's possible that family of deceased owner just put it in the wrong box.

[Charles Guest]

Charles,

Living in the SW desert I seldom have a too cold shop so no problem with thickening. I wonder if a little kerosine would thin it enough and still keep the swarf suspension.

BTW, sometimes folks can learn something with close reading of the literature, just saying:).


ken

Not sure... might separate on standing. Worth a try though.

[Stewie Simpson]

Charles,

Living in the SW desert I seldom have a too cold shop so no problem with thickening. I wonder if a little kerosine would thin it enough and still keep the swarf suspension.

BTW, sometimes folks can learn something with close reading of the literature, just saying:).

ken

Ken; I will add Neatsfoot oil to the list of other highly speculative lubricants that early craftsmen used on their sharpening stones. Like Whale Oil and Linseed Oil. Here's a modern twist from the Razor Forum, Shaving Cream as a lubricant. It makes your stones smell like its been freshly shaved.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, if that Dalmore Blue was in the Salmen box I think it's got to be a mistake. There is a different box on Google pics
labeled Salmen Oil Stone that says in the corner "genuine Yellow Lake". And the pics of Salmon oil stones do not show the patterns of Dalmore. Dalmore is from Scotland and Yellow Lake from England or Wales. Dalmore is the more expensive stone. I think it's possible that family of deceased owner just put it in the wrong box.

Mel; compare the differences in packaging.

http://straightrazorplace.com/attachments/hones/32536d1256822387-salmens-natural-oilstone-yellow-lake-brand-yellow-lake-oilstone-3.jpg

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq141/rpsl4725/IMG_2849_zps5507bf1a.jpg

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0311_zps1djzhgzd.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/salmen%20master%20oil%20stone/_DSC0311_zps1djzhgzd.jpg.html)

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, Stewie, I was just musing. The Master Stone box says 'compare to diamond'. Cant imagine that would be the nice Dalmore Blue. The box could have held a carborundum ; so we could have a carborundum conundrum. I bet that "factory" wasn't much more than a bunch of day workers, abrasive belts ,and crate tables and chairs. One reason I say that is I remember a roofer telling me that the place that made slate roof shingles invited him to the "factory" some distance away.
He went, and later told me the factory was mostly day workers sitting on crates and splitting the slate with hammer and chisel.

[Stewie Simpson]

Mel; good luck with your unsubstantiated theories. You may want to do your own research into Salmen's history as a major trading house of quarried natural stones from across the U.K. (England, Scotland, & Wales, and parts of Ireland). Its not part of my role to fill you in on what has taken me a great deal of time and research to find out..

regards;

[Mel Fulks]

Stewie, not trying to change your mind. As you said one side looked different. Looking only at the other side most of the stone gurus here would say "it's one of the slates". But you looked at the other side and made a good decision to bid. And even today merchandise gets mislabeled. The stone can not "compare to the diamond" as the box says ,or you couldn't have lapped it with the paper you used.

[Stewie Simpson]

Mel; I don't give a toot what is inadvertently advertised on the outside of the box. I have clearly identified the stones type, its a perfect fit within the outside packaging, and the stones origin matches that within the known history of Salmen's as a major trader of u.k mined honing stones throughout England, Scotland, & Wales. The key principle areas within the U.K where quality honing stones were sourced from. In future, I wont be initiating any new threads on the subject of natural honing stones.

regards; and all the best to you and your family during the Christmas, new year festive period.

[jeremy j smith]

Mel.

I believe Diamond may have been a brand of vitrified hones, rather than the material. I believe both were used with straight razors.

Jeremy.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks and welcome, Jeremy ;quite a bit of material to sift through on this. One of the pics shows top of cardboard box with "compares to diamond in hardness" (or something close to that). So that makes me think that the stone in it had to be carborundum rather than a relatively soft natural. But I could be wrong.