out of square plane blade - Inexperienced Tormek user

[Tom DiBiasio]

Hi All

Well I have had my tormek for several years, but if I am being honest - I spent a TON of money on this machine and many jigs, but have not used it that much. I like some of you have a problem with "collecting" tools and not as much time using them, I am trying to change this and therefore the reason for my question here.

I tried to sharpen my "first" plane blade and as you can see from the attached image - it was a complete disaster !!! So I have two questions for more experienced tormek users:

#1 - I have used the straight edge jig (newer one with two point alignment stops and spring loaded knobs) I have read that maybe it was differences in the knob pressure that "skewed" the blade in the jig and I will try to adjust this next time at the very beginning using the marker method. But other than this is there any tips you can share for a newbie who is just trying to get his blade square and sharp?

#2 - What can I do to get this failed attempt back into square? knowing that I dont own any bench stones and only have the tormek as a tool to correct.

Thank you in advance for an guidance you can give this Tormek newbie...

TomD

[Tony Leonard]

Wow, that is quite a bit. I guess the first thing is that the Tormek is not a precision device. You can't expect everythign to line up perfectly. WHat I do is mark the surface to be ground with a sharpie, then put it on the wheel spinning it by hand or just kissing it while running. That will show you real quick if it is square. If it ain't, adjust it, and so on. Also, even pressure and consistent grinding is important. Also important to check the squareness of your wheel. They do need to be dressed now and then.

If you only have the Tormek, You can jig it back up and just keep grinding on that one side until it gets close to being square (check it with a square!) and then sart over. This is going to take a while.

There are some good videos on the subject out there. Good luck with it! Oh, make sure the wheel is dressed with the coarse side of the stone - you have a lot of metal to remove. Might be good to get in the habit of checking squareness often while grinding!

Tony

[Izzy Camire]

To start I have noticed that adjusting the tightness of the knobs is important.
I would start by lowering the toolrest to the stone. It should touch all the way across. If it doesn't your stone is out of parallel to the tool rest. Correct this by redressing the stone.
If this were my blade I would put it back in the jig. Make sure the side of the blade is against the stops on the side then carefully tighten the knobs to the same tension. As someone mentioned black up the cutting edge with a marker. Put it on the machine I would expect it to start cutting on the "long" side of your blade. If it does that just regrind it. If it doesn't keep looking and figure out why it is off.

[John K Jordan]

I'm trying to imagine what went wrong. I have the old version of the square edge jig which is apparently made a little differently. Assuming the blade is mounted square in the jig and clamped flat, the only think I can think of is the support bar is out of square. Perhaps check it against the wheel with a square or shims.

Are you grinding from the top, wheel turning towards the edge? Could you possibly be pushing down on the blade and bending or flexing the support bar? That the edge is angled the way you show is consistent with that, or the support bar bent down towards the outside. Or if sharpening from the front with the wheel turning away from the edge, lifting up on the back of the iron could pry up the support bar with a similar effect.

Also, the older Tormeks had only one locking knob on the front tool support bar bracket. I consider this insufficient since it could allow some play and replaced mine with a newer bracket with a locking knob on both legs.

You might read this if you have not already.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_vMSN793QAhVJJiYKHRC3CcIQFghhMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tormek.com%2Fen%2Fjigs%2Fse76 %2Fsquare_edge%2Fse76_factors_en.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF9nllWsQUXOvbEmsodYh0Z01_qug&sig2=LiuOzAzuJGcKb672qZ14jA
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_vMSN793QAhVJJiYKHRC3CcIQFghhMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tormek.com%2Fen%2Fjigs%2Fse76 %2Fsquare_edge%2Fse76_factors_en.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF9nllWsQUXOvbEmsodYh0Z01_qug&sig2=LiuOzAzuJGcKb672qZ14jA)

JKJ

[Tom Trees]

Hello Tom
Get a hunk of aluminum stock 5 or 6" long around the same size as the stock from a woodworking square . or even plastic around that size ,
the same width but about 75% as tall when resting flat
and butt it against the side of your blade .
Spot on every time and fast, Provided your plane iron is parallel :)
Good fix if you aren't sure if your wheel is flat and you have multiple facets on your iron now and your starting to realize
that time you fettled the 90 degree jig, something was a skew .
Good luck
Tom

[Tom DiBiasio]

First off thanks for all the responses so far - I already have many ideas what I have done wrong now - but im thinking that I have been led "astray" by watching a youtube video from highland woodworking yesterday... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMCwG8xehGE) Skip ahead to 2:28 where the demonstrator says "it does not matter how much upward pressure you apply - you can put enough to pick it up". So based on this comment, I was cranking on that upward pressure for sure when I tried to to sharpen this for the first time. Almost ashamed to say that I am not 100% sure I had the universal support bar locked in either... (dohhhh hanging head in shame) Tonight I will make an attempt to get this thing back to a normal state and refine my method based on comments here and the document linked by John above.

@John - the answers to your question are as follows:
#1 - I was grinding from the top - meaning the wheel was spinning into the blade
#2 - I was very likely flexing the support bar given the amount of upward pressure I was putting on the blade
#3 - I am not 100% sure that the support bar was fully locked in (sigh)

Does anyone use the angle master jig to determine sharpening angle or should I just try adjusting by the Sharpie method?

TomD

[Ronald Blue]

I know nothing about using the Tormek sharpening system. A couple thoughts to add though. #1 do you know that the end was square before you started and the other end would have to be off the same amount the other way. I would be more interested in knowing what it measures for height on each end. The end of the blade is not required to be square. #2 for you to get that far off you would have been hogging a LOT off the other end before you made contact on this end. Is that what happened? You were taking a lot off the other end before you ever made contact on this end? If it is off this much you will need to take that much more off to correct it. I am not sure that's necessary. You set it off the cutting edge anyway and the jacking screws should work regardless. Just my observations. Good luck.

[John K Jordan]

...
#1 - I was grinding from the top - meaning the wheel was spinning into the blade
#2 - I was very likely flexing the support bar given the amount of upward pressure I was putting on the blade
#3 - I am not 100% sure that the support bar was fully locked in (sigh)

Does anyone use the angle master jig to determine sharpening angle or should I just try adjusting by the Sharpie method?


Seems like flexing the bar upwards from the top would overgrind on the right side instead of the left. But checking out all the components would be the first step anyway.

I use the Sharpie method on all my tools, primarily turning tools: Blue, hold against the stone and adjust the bar until it looks right from the side, then move the stone a tiny bit by hand, and check the scratch. This is very quick.

BTW, I replaced my Tormek wheel last year with a 600 grit CBN wheel. It cuts quicker than the stone water wheel but does not give quite as good an edge, but it is still good for turning tools after honing/polishing. (And never gets smaller, needs truing, or needs messing with water) For a plane iron it wouldn't be good enough without additional work on fine flat stones. Reed Grey put a 1000 grit wheel on his Tormek to sharpen turning tools. I might try that some day or look for a second Tormek and go back to the water wheel just for my spindle detail gouges.

Since the Tormek is horrible for removing a lot of steel, years ago I mounted a Tormek tool rest guide bar on one of my 8" bench grinders and use a jig with that when I want to reshape a tool, then back to the Tormek to sharpen.

JKJ

[Ken Schroeder]

Tom,
One problem which is more common than realized is a grinding wheel which needs to be trued. Many Tormek users are reluctant to true their wheels. This is an essential part of grinding, wet or dry. The newer Tormek truing tool, the TT-50 does a fine job. Have you trued your wheel? Even if you have done this before, do it now. Follow the video on tormek.com. I suggest you start with very light cuts, barely touching the high spots on the wheel. Keep taking very light cuts, about half a number on the microadjust. When you eventually have a cut which touches the entire wheel, you are done.

Do this often and your wheel will cut truer and last longer. (many light adjustments vs fewer deeper adjustments.

Use a black marker on your bevel. Just start to grind. Examine your grinding spot on the black marker. It should look square. Check it with a small square if you have one.

An untrue wheel has snuck up on me several times. Remain vigilant.

Ken

ps Do not worry about wearing down your precious grinding wheel. The precious part is what the sharp edges can help you make for the precious persons in your life. Grinding wheels, like brake pads, are consumables.

[Jim Andrew]

I use a Grizzly wet grinder, similar setup. I just align the edge of the plane iron with the side of the grinding wheel to square the end of the plane iron.

[Charles Bjorgen]

Hello Tom -- Just last week I was rehabbing a couple of Stanley plane blades and ran into a similar non-square problem. I checked the wheel with a reliable square and detected a slight deviation. I immediately trued the wheel with the Tormek diamond dresser. Problem solved. Another factor is the Tormek square edge jig. Tormek has made several advances in this jig, the most recent the SE-77. There are many advantages to this jig and I'd recommend it if you feel you can afford it.

One thing I learned with the older jigs is that over tightening the left knob can cause the grinding to go off square. Tormek has a small video that shows a user just barely tightening the left knob. Here it is:
http://www.tormek.com/en/jigs/se76/index.php
if your square edge jig is an earlier model, the same principle applies

I'd still recommend buying the SE-77 if the Tormek is your main sharpening system.

By the way, I also keep a small machinist square handy to frequently check progress as I grind.

[Tom DiBiasio]

Well I have to send a HUGE thank you to everyone who responded - based on the fast response of all of you I am happy to report real progress and what I am considering success in grinding my plane blade.

I think the problem was as many said - Grinding wheel not true. See pic of wheel with universal support lowered highlighting a definite gap !

349000
After truing the wheel I started to regrind the plane iron using the marker technique and some of the other suggestions above:

Just as expected it is grinding on the high point only
349001

After about 15-20 minutes I was over half way:
349002

And now the COMPLETED re-grind
349003

I can not thank you enough for all those that took time to respond and show this newbie the error of his ways and most importantly - how to recover.

Ken - your inspirational words about considering the grinding wheel as just a consumable tool really hit home with me - I feel like I am blessed to have had a father who taught me to build with wood and then to be fortunate enough in life to have the money to buy tools that I can enjoy - but in the end you are 100% right that some of these tools are consumable and the real point of this hobby to create things for people we care about and look forward to the gift of sharing my talents with them.

Now back to finishing that cherry blanket chest I have been working on for my wife...

TomD

[Andrew Hughes]

Yep that's looks good I was going to post a bunch of pics of the different things I sharpen on my Tormek.To encourage you and others to stick with it.
But it looks like you have made it work just fine. The more you use it the better it gets.

[Izzy Camire]

Great to hear you got it resolved. I think you'll like the Tormek it does a good job.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

You never did mention where you live, but, if you live near Columbus Ohio and need to quickly square up an end, we can do that in my shop pretty quickly.

One trick that I often use is to check if the sides of the tool (plane blade, chisel, etc) parallel? If they are not, then you might have the edge perpendicular to one but not the other. if I pick a reference edge, then I can check to see if that reference edge seems to be perpendicular to the holder. This is a little sanity check over and above things like "do I need to dress the wheel".

Also, I often check to see if things are staying square while I am working. For some of what I do it does not really matter if it is square or not, but on a plane blade that seems pretty important.

Glad you got it figured out.

[Bob Glenn]

I also use a small square to draw a pencil line across the wheel. This gives me a visual guide when setting the iron in the grinding clamp. And yes, how you tighten the screws makes a difference.