Some Euro machines in local shops... [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Erik Loza

12-03-2016, 10:15 AM

I recently did a tour of a few local Austin shops. Typically, what I see in shops is a bunch of either older American iron or your typical Chaiwanese assortment of table saws, jointers, planers, etc. I'll post pics from our shop at some point but I thought folks might enjoy seeing some Euro machines in their natural habitat. Here is an early 90's Minimax SC3. Great saw, highly underrated IMO. Many, many of these in shops across the country.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Random%20stuff/IMG_2532_zpshk5yq0up.jpg

These two images are significant in that they represent what you actually see when you go into shops:

-A hodge-podge of DIY fasteners and fabbed parts
-Safety equipment such as riving knives and guards missing or never used

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Random%20stuff/IMG_2533_zpsrramkpnj.jpg

I'm pretty sure that bolt ^^^ is from a Toyota car or truck.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Random%20stuff/IMG_2535_zpshfpimpgx.jpg

^^^ DIY splinter tongue and that locking knob for the flip stop looks very McMaster-Carr-ey.

Older SCMi Si150 short-stroke slider. Built like a tank. Again, riving knife and sawblade guard nowhere to be found. Surprisingly, both flip stops present. Usually, it's only one or none. This shop does exclusively solid wood and actually did most of the ripping on a Sawstop (not pictured). They told me they used the slider for PT lumber, since it would trip the sawstop.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Random%20stuff/IMG_2537_zpsu3ljsq9d.jpg

Well hey there, gorgeous! Ten years old and still running like a champ....

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Random%20stuff/IMG_2539_zpsqvmtgvva.jpg

Apparently, he's not the only MM16 owner who didn't like the OEM plastic throatplate...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Random%20stuff/IMG_2540_zpsza1pw5r9.jpg

For the record, it's about a 20-cent nut and bolt but, hey...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Random%20stuff/IMG_2541_zpsalay7i3g.jpg

Not a euro machine but gets in the door on sexiness alone...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Random%20stuff/IMG_2536_zpsoglqmdt5.jpg

Different shop, I blurred his face. At least he is wearing ear protection.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Random%20stuff/IMG_2568_zpsgic18kfc.jpg

Jim Becker

12-03-2016, 10:19 AM

That last photo is "vawwy scawwy!"

I hope you'll continue to post what you see "out there" in the, um...real world. :)

Will Boulware

12-06-2016, 6:22 PM

Cool stuff! Always nice to get a glimpse into a production environment. Makes you question all the "gotta-haves" we can't live without. :D

andrew whicker

12-06-2016, 6:40 PM

breaker boxes on top of breaker boxes in that last pic.

Gregory King

12-06-2016, 6:57 PM

Last pic is an accident waiting to happen. Yikes!. Sure hope the bicycle isn't the local ambulance.

Jeff Duncan

12-06-2016, 9:00 PM

breaker boxes on top of breaker boxes in that last pic.

Could actually be breaker boxes on top of fuse boxes. My last 2 shops had similar types of mess on the power walls. My guess is most if not all the darker grey boxes are fuses, while the 4 or 5 light grey boxes are newer ones with breakers. Nice thing about the fuse panels is they were a lot cheaper to get up and running than breaker panels!

John TenEyck

12-06-2016, 10:33 PM

And all of those Euro saws came with a riving knife and guard, yes? Forrest Gump had it right. "Stupid is as stupid does."

Time for everyone to go find their missing safety devices and put them back on their machines.

John

Van Huskey

12-06-2016, 10:57 PM

Back when I did a lot of products liability work I was often stunned to see the great lengths people would go to in order to defeat some of the safety interlocks on machines so I don't even bat an eye when I see missing TS guards, since while many are loath to admit it more people work without them than do and that includes the preponderance of Creeker's shops I have been in.

What always strikes me is the lack of quality dust control in commercial and light industrial shops. While woodworking machine guarding accidents can indeed maim someone it is far less likely to significantly reduce one's lifespan compared to breathing dust laden air for 20-30 years. Dust control overall has less of a negative impact on production as well, which is the root of guard non-use.

Martin Wasner

12-07-2016, 6:50 AM

Why do you safety nazis have to ruin everything?

Patrick Walsh

12-07-2016, 8:23 AM

Haha Martin, you made me laugh pretty good.

Being i make my living as a residential carpenter i will chime in.

My jobsite sawstop has no riving knive on it. It sits that handy dandy little carry case built into the table but non the less its not on the saw. Nor is the blade guard. In all my years in the trades "20" i have never seen a jobsite ts with a blade guard. I do use a auto switcher and shop vac for dust collection it when i can. Various circumstances can negate this happening though. Namely someone takes my shop vac for another task on site or the 15 amp breaker can't handle it. I would say it gets used 30% of the time realistically.

My ICS that sits in my shop always has a riving knife in it and a blade guard. The reality is this is mostly about dust collection.

So you ask why no riving knife. Well now im really gonna get in trouble. Straight line ripping. And yes i do enough of it that taking the riving knife on and off everytime is just not going to happen. If had 50k for a brand new T75 Prex i would this surely would not be the case. The fact is i spend 90% in the feild and would be rolling riving knife free straing line ripping away on my jobsite saw. The fact i use sawstops i think is pretty responsible of me.

In my shop i often can not fit stock under my blade guard and off the whole assembly comes fairly often. The plain riving knife hangs on the walll 2' away amd i really should learn to just put it back on in this case.

Whom ever suggested dust exposuer was a bigger risk long term than being maimed by a ts was righ on in my book. As a tradesman i inhale more dust than i care to think about. I takes me a good 20-30 minutes during and after my evening shower to clear all the crap out ofmy nasel passage and throat. Most often i wake all clogged up.The long term health implications do bother me terribley. The fact is in the feild there is little i can do about it. I work for a company and not one of my co workers could be bothered to waste even 30 seconds thinking about any of this. More often than not i am using a company owned ts and it is what it is. I can complain all i want but im not going to make many friends and the fact is the squeeky wheel does not get grease on a jobsite ge gets the boot!

Ninety percent of comercial cabinet shops i have been into rock old school dust collection with cloth bags if anything at all. Lucky if they ever get emptied. I have never once seen a riving knife in one of these shops as they all seems to use antiquated old american cabinet saws or sliders from 20 plus years ago. Does any of this make any of it right "nope" but those that can not be bothered to care set the precident leaving those of us that do care "the minority" to go along with it or risk sitting on the couch as i already am as the boss is between jobs.

My two cents, i know it does not make it right but it is the way it is in the field right or wrong.

Bradley Gray

12-07-2016, 9:07 AM

I've been using the kind of splitter that is installed in a table saw insert on my 66 for about 5 years - it is easy enough to switch out that it actually gets used!

Frank Pratt

12-07-2016, 10:10 AM

I completely understand not using a guard all the time; there are some situations where the guard is just in the way. But for the life of me, I can't understand not using a riving knife when the guard is removed. As far as I'm concerned the riving knife is a far more important safety feature than the guard.

My jobsite sawstop has no riving knive on it. It sits that handy dandy little carry case built into the table but non the less its not on the saw. Nor is the blade guard.

John TenEyck

12-07-2016, 10:30 AM

Because people who get hurt because they wouldn't use safety devices affect the insurance rates we all pay.

John

Kevin Jenness

12-07-2016, 12:22 PM

Jim Andrew

12-07-2016, 12:34 PM

Funny how when I did woodworking professionally, never used a guard, but now that it is a hobby, use the guard whenever possible. Along with good dust collection. Find when using my K3 Winner, just about always use the riving knife and the guard. Enjoy not getting sawdust in my eyes.

peter gagliardi

12-07-2016, 12:40 PM

Patrick, if freehand ripping on the jobsite tablesaw is what you are talking about, wouldn't it be considerably safer with a riving knife? I won't debate the advisability of doing it in the first place, but why not make it as safe as possible?
Freehand ripping is hampered by the riving knife. Sometimes you freehand rip to a line and unfortunately you have to steer the board back behind the blade slightly. Not immediately behind the blade, but before the back of the 4-5" deep riving knife allows.

Lonnie Gallaher

12-07-2016, 1:08 PM

Dust control is just a dust mask away. I have worked in the steel fabrication industry for a good deal of my life. Many years of that was working in a steel mill in the 1970s - extremely dusty and dirty. Now I work in the office. When I was in the shop or field we never had any kind of dust protection. But now in our shop we have the best disposable dust masks money can buy. Some of the workers use them and some don't. Either way it is easy to provide our own dust control. That is if we care about ourselves and getting to play with our grand kids.

Patrick Walsh

12-07-2016, 2:14 PM

Same can be said for the overwight, those whom just eat unhealthy foods and are not overwieght, those that smoke, drive like jerks so forth and so on.

The smoking and overwieght thing gets me with health insurance so i your point is well taken.

In the end though non of it is changing in some way we are all guilty. For instance im a vegan health nut but i free hamd rip almost daily. I ice and rocked climb d for years till you took a 40' ground fall and shattered my ankle. I was just happy to be alive and not a vegtable or diabled so i gave that up.

Anyway you geI bmy point we all drive up health care cost in some way.

Because people who get hurt because they wouldn't use safety devices affect the insurance rates we all pay.

John

Van Huskey

12-07-2016, 2:51 PM

I ice and rocked climb d for years till you took a 40' ground fall and shattered my ankle. I was just happy to be alive and not a vegtable or diabled so i gave that up.

Woodworking blindfolded would be less dangerous than most of my other hobbies. I have done several expeditions with a statistical 1 in 10 or worse chance of death. It is not unusual to find me on a runout 5.12 pitch with ground fall potential or hooking sketchy flakes on a A4 route. An actuary would see me as a horrible bet but somehow I have managed to avoid the emergency room and the morgue. It is all about risk management as there are people that can work 40 hours a week for 40 years without a guard and by luck and/or good practices never draw a drop of blood and some people who can use every safeguard ever conceived on a Sawstop, wrap themselves in kevlar, chainmail and bubble wrap and amputate their leg just looking at the on switch.

andrew whicker

12-07-2016, 3:37 PM

And then some of us live in Northern Utah for access to the outdoors only to breath in pollution all winter due to the inversion.

What are you going to do?

Martin Wasner

12-07-2016, 6:36 PM

What are you going to do?

Continue messing up a perfectly good thread? :D

John Sincerbeaux

12-07-2016, 10:25 PM

Van Huskey

12-07-2016, 10:54 PM

Sorry to Erik for continuing the derailment of his thread. But I am always amazed at how many guys here freak out over seeing a saw being operated without a riving knife and or blade guard? The reason so many shops don't use them is because... they are NOT necessary. I learned to use a tablesaw in high school shop at 14. can you imagine all the teenagers using industrial tablesaws with no guards? No blade brakes. Bought my first tablesaw
at 16. I have been cutting wood on tablesaws without riving knives, or guards for 40 years. 90% of my work is close to the blade work. A guard would actually be unsafe.

To be fair Erik did bring up safety in his OP so it is fair game, but it would be nice if other people had pictures of Euro machines in small commercial settings.

The reality is people have different ideas about risk management in a shop and I think it has some correlation with when, in the course of human events, they started woodworking. I started skiing, rock/mountain climbing and cycling long before helmets were the norm and I am selective in their use now when doing those activities while the young guys doing these sports almost always wear a helmet, but maybe needing a GoPro attachment point is a bigger part of their motivation than safety. In the shop I tend to use guards as long as they don't negatively impact my workflow.

Since this is a Euro machine and safety thread it should be pointed out that used correctly a slider is safer (from blade to body injuries) than a cabinet saw even without the guard.

John Sincerbeaux

12-08-2016, 12:04 AM

Van, you and I have a lot in common. Been skiing, surfing, forever... Started wearing a helmet when they were outfitted with speakers. My first wetsuit had a beaver tail. Your avatar has always caught my eye because of your 02 mask. I wore a helmet and mask when I flew jets in the USAF. I still chase pow in the winter and kitesurf in the summer.
I agree w you that a tablesaw seems pretty pale to all the other risks we take.
ps, I have a GoPro attachment on my helmet:)

J.R. Rutter

12-08-2016, 12:40 AM

Pics Erik will like:

Our edge sander w/ pneumatic oscillation control. Samco made these for SCMI.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6Tac2-y-hOSaKRlnj0rSYjWdsiU4Y7CFemcv3Jx0Hh2vYwXvq71_5IgR1E xpY6mUY2RulS71_LtNWQ=w2560-h1440-no
Like a sideways jointer on the other side, but with 2" wide platen instead of cutterhead.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RLZfEoTiCERqHIaFy1XHCC7201v9JpYdCgc_MHQrPotQxJ8BYt LTlEP87ZJOM0nC7c759xU_r5z_uA=w2560-h1440-no
The motor mounted end drum is a lot faster than the spindle sander for large radius work.
http://i.imgur.com/Ffutm.jpg

Well worn jointer with Tersa head. Hardly ever gets used, lol.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FVs4yOrbtleETunBvX-t-26BH5nMjlLPK9XS2g3zVawnFLvbiZ_4dkkiet9mZACCqu_XkN5 c_sv-oQ=w2560-h1440-no
Here's the "good side"
http://i.imgur.com/Tc0NI.jpg

German moulders are awesome, but the Italians are solid, too.
http://i.imgur.com/8NDFQ.jpg
Under the hood.
http://i.imgur.com/BEMaQ2v.jpg

Same with sanders. I like how compact the footprint is on this 2-head. Not heavy duty by any means, but for finish sanding - amazing...
http://i.imgur.com/6J8aT.jpg

So fortunate to have this pair of shapers that can share tooling stacks quickly and easily. One for cope and stick, the other for panels and edges.
http://i.imgur.com/txHBq.jpg

Before the Class shapers, my solution was to just buy lots of shapers, but it started to get a bit tight on floor space...
http://i.imgur.com/vrb8AgM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6iXcrcM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RW02y0D.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DnRzraq.jpg

Van Huskey

12-08-2016, 12:47 AM

ps, I have a GoPro attachment on my helmet:)

I must admit to having multiple GoPros and every mount known to man...

Back to the OP and alas safety. How many of you have a behind sled blade guard and an over the sled blade guard? I never had one of either until I saw and built the Ng sled and just copied it since it doesn't impact usability, my polycarbonate top guard is not as wide as his though.

BTW thanks JR some definate machine porn there!

Martin Wasner

12-08-2016, 8:47 AM

Pics Erik will like:

Ya think!?! lol, I think you sold your soul to SCM Group. :p

I want to play now. Erik won't be as pleased.

Switzerland: Striebig Compact Plus panel saw. I don't know how I functioned before this thing.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15356590_10209708910350751_659162919250410977_n.jp g?oh=26310332f3f9c2193d5a3ce5eaab6a4a&oe=58B1F077

Italy: SAC TS-120 shaper. I paid something silly like $1200 for this shaper, but I spent probably six hours scraping rust off the deck and cleaning it up. And I had to add the powerfeeder. Currently setup with a four wing insert head for panel raising. I never bothered setting up the dust collection permanently because I didn't think I would be in this space as long as I have been.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15327247_10209708910470754_5145921507894911751_n.j pg?oh=3cd038ca071f6d231afcea0328b01e2e&oe=58EC7EFC

Italy: Sac TS-120 shaper. I bought this last spring at an auction. I paid probably too much for it, but it came with all of the tools, a spare spindle, and the manual. It came out of a tech school, so I know it has never seen a forty hour week of abuse.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15390859_10209708910590757_2133973978735218795_n.j pg?oh=607de48f375957d2ee0a6787da084c6e&oe=58B9F4F3

Italy: SCMi T130N shaper. I bought this last year from a Creeker. It's set up for doing all of my sticking, and for sizing R&S for face frames with an outboard fence.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15327274_10209708910870764_5466584032019789433_n.j pg?oh=0a3c9a80499d5854f912b20e20631054&oe=58F597A3

Poland: Derda chop saw. It's exactly like an OMGA MEC300ST. There isn't many around. I'm guessing the castings were done in Poland, and the company wanted in on the action and were quickly snuffed out. I've only seen a few saws online.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15349690_10209708911470779_7050234105832139810_n.j pg?oh=4cdad167677f7bf85681adad69dafff7&oe=58B3347D

Italy: OMGA MEC300ST (2) I've been on the hunt for these for the last year or so. I would like to replace the Derda with another one of these as the Derda is 220V, and I want all three benches in the new shop to have their chop saws on the same circuit and three phase. These are just sitting on the rack waiting for their new home to be finished up.

http://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15317932_10209708911070769_3583470661159924418_n.j pg?oh=293560fa3e09555c3744d754f2496c1a&oe=58BE1639

I don't have the proliferation of Euro equipment that JR does, that's pretty impressive dude!

J.R. Rutter

12-08-2016, 1:28 PM

It is nice to have that pile of shapers gone. At one point, I had seven of them. I would love to have a vertical panel saw, but really can't justify it for cutting door panels. I also can't reliably cut any angles other than 90 degrees or 45 degrees with my current tools...

PS- safety folks might notice both a riving knife and dust collection on the sawstop in the background of one of my pics ;)

Martin Wasner

12-08-2016, 2:16 PM

I'm in the dedicated machine camp, but my opinion of that has softened since I re-tooled and changing profiles for sticking and copes is now just cracking a nut and swapping heads. My jobs rarely are all the same profile anymore. The house I'm working on right now has four different door styles in three different species. I'm real interested in getting one of those PMK copers though, at least I can stack two profiles in that. Thankfully 99% of what I do is inset, so I don't have to worry about profiling the outside edge of the fronts too often.

Brad Shipton

12-08-2016, 4:52 PM

I like the porkchop guard on JR's jointer. great idea.

peter gagliardi

12-08-2016, 6:14 PM

Well, let's add some German to the mix.
First, Martin T75 8' slide probably my favorite tablesaw in the shop.
349125
Then, Ganner, 46 spindles - one of those "how did I ever manage without? " machines.
349126
On to Weinig, 5 spindle entry level machine.
349127
Lineal molding made easy.
Next, another Martin, shaping made easy, and accurate. 1 1/2" spindle to mold radius patterns using same knives as the Weinig does for straight. Best return on investment of any machine I have bought.
349128
Tilts 45 degrees forward and back.
And another Martin, T75 PreX 12' slide dual tilt machine.
Lots of features, but some pretty poor engineering on basic functions- battery operated DRO's on the crosscut table with no provision for an auto off on the displays after some time with no use.
Eats AA batteries like candy.
Still a great saw, but....
349129

And lastly, my least loved machine in the shop, SCMI 37" sander. Feed belt issues from about 6 months.
Oh, and it is missing the "special divoting attachment" - SCM calls it an overthickness stop, but it never failed to get bumped on the last pass, leading to divots across the doors, or in conjunction with the feed belt that couldn't feed consistently. This came to a head one day, and it just "fell off" sideways across the shop.
But it does always run.
349130

All guards visible are generally in their most used state.

John TenEyck

12-08-2016, 7:23 PM

Martin Wasner

12-08-2016, 9:08 PM

We've got Switzerland, Poland, Italy in spades, and Germany.

Who else in the the EU can we add?

peter gagliardi

12-08-2016, 9:24 PM

I got one more, though technically not a powered machine, from Denmark, my Morso beaded face frame haunching machine.
349135
The guard stays in the box.

Patrick Walsh

12-08-2016, 9:42 PM

What i would do to have that for the upcoming week. I gotta make a kitchem full of beaded face frame, cabint doors and drawers.

A
I got one more, though technically not a powered machine, from Denmark, my Morso beaded face frame haunching machine.
349135
The guard stays in the box.

Dave Cav

12-08-2016, 10:00 PM

349127

That's all very cool, but what about the bandsaw?

Joe Calhoon

12-08-2016, 10:23 PM

Well, let's add some German to the mix.
.

Next, another Martin, shaping made easy, and accurate. 1 1/2" spindle to mold radius patterns using same knives as the Weinig does for straight. Best return on investment of any machine I have bought.
349128
Tilts 45 degrees forward and back.

Peter, I see you went for the Wegoma on your T26. Good move, a lot more money than the DC 40 but better in many ways especially on the Martin power arm.

peter gagliardi

12-08-2016, 10:43 PM

Joe, I got that feeder about 2-3 years ago now. The ease of going from vertical to horizontal cannot be appreciated enough.
It was painfully expensive, and I think at the time there was a cheaper alternative- maybe Powermatic? Exact same machine, but painted a different color. If I were to do it over, I would have bought the cheaper unit, and used the saved money over the Wegoma price to buy the paint to match.

Dave, thats my Yates Y36, just awaiting some new power wires from start/stop to the contactors, and a light grind on the rubber to get to concentric again.

Mike Heidrick

12-08-2016, 10:56 PM

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/t1002s6.jpg

My Laguna T1002s tilting spindle sliding table shaper is a Bulgarian Stomana Hickman with a Baldor Reliance motor

J.R. Rutter

12-08-2016, 11:46 PM

Oh yeah, the Morso. I've adapted it slightly to do french miters on cabinet door frames after the groove is run. If they take off, I will probably try to get a custom US Concepts hauncher to speed things up. The Hoffmann router is a nice companion, though I just use it for 45" miter joining.

http://www.harmonicdesignworks.com/Harmonic_Design/Our_Shop_files/Media/P1040408/P1040408.jpg

Dave Cav

12-09-2016, 12:22 AM

Dave, thats my Yates Y36, just awaiting some new power wires from start/stop to the contactors, and a light grind on the rubber to get to concentric again.

That's a beautiful machine. Could you post it over at Vintage Machinery?

peter gagliardi

12-09-2016, 6:22 AM

That's a beautiful machine. Could you post it over at Vintage Machinery?

Once I get it all together- front upper door, etc... I plan to. This one has a cast iron upper door, don't want to play with putting on and taking off more than I have to.

Darcy Warner

12-09-2016, 8:17 AM

I have had/have a bunch. Two t75s, scmi 10'6" stroke, holzher 10'6", scmi t130 sliding table, sac t145 tilting spindle sliding table, schwabedissen 25" jointer, kolle 25" planer, two scm 25" planers, two scm R9's, couple wadkins, gomad tilting spindle, fortis short stroke saw, p22, probably some I forget.

David Kumm

12-09-2016, 8:30 AM

349150349151349152349156349159349154

Here are a few more Euro machines.

Knapp saw shaper with Mac's clamps

Martin T21 shaper

Sac planer. I like the Sac stuff. Was a heavy build, tersa head and power up and down.

A couple of English saws, Robinson and Wadkin

Bacci oscillating mortiser. This is a handy machine. Dave

Malcolm McLeod

12-09-2016, 8:50 AM

Jim Becker

12-09-2016, 4:23 PM

I snagged this European beauty for my shop at a recent auction...:cool:
349161
All the guards and safety features are in place and used. Going to be a real time-saver, and, I'm sure will be my personal 'can't live w/o' power tool!;) (Just waiting on the electricians to finish the new electrical service - - that 350MCM wire is a bear to pull.)

(Had to do it. ...You guys and your tool-porn.)

Isn't that a dedicated lathe customized to facilitate communication and documentation in the shop? :D :D :D

Mike Heidrick

12-09-2016, 4:43 PM

Malcolm I have some hand tools for Greenlee that will make pulling bending and connecting that 350MCM much easier. :)

Brian Henderson

12-09-2016, 4:52 PM

I completely understand not using a guard all the time; there are some situations where the guard is just in the way. But for the life of me, I can't understand not using a riving knife when the guard is removed. As far as I'm concerned the riving knife is a far more important safety feature than the guard.

Let's be honest, some people care more about working fast than working safe. Of course, once they get seriously injured, they're not working at all.

Brian Henderson

12-09-2016, 4:57 PM

I have both a behind blade guard and Plexiglas over the blade guard on my crosscut sled. The design came from the late Gerry Cary in his book on kitchen cabinets. Just seemed like a really smart thing to have as long as I was building it.

Safety is mostly about training and common sense but people get tired, mistakes happen, and wood doesn't always behave well.

John

That's exactly what I have. When I can't use the regular guard, I engineer a guard into whatever jig I'm using so that I cannot come in contact with the blade, period. The idea that it won't happen to you only matters until it happens to you.

sebastian phillips

12-09-2016, 7:00 PM

Thanks to all those who shared their photos. To those who diverted over to "safety comments": start your own thread!!

To Van: so you routinely lead climbs like the Bachar-Yerian, but a full number grade higher??
Wow, just a wee bit more dangerous than free hand ripping on a TS......

John Lankers

12-09-2016, 7:56 PM

I snagged this European beauty for my shop at a recent auction...:cool:
349161
All the guards and safety features are in place and used. Going to be a real time-saver, and, I'm sure will be my personal 'can't live w/o' power tool!;) (Just waiting on the electricians to finish the new electrical service - - that 350MCM wire is a bear to pull.)

(Had to do it. ...You guys and your tool-porn.)

Man Malcolm, I hope that 350MCM can handle the load, at least your machine is single phase. Make sure you build a good, solid base for it with lots of rebar in the concrete.
Oh btw., hire a certified electrician to wire it up :D:D:D.

Rich Riddle

12-09-2016, 9:51 PM

Interesting photos and good to see the Euro machines in a shop. The older I get the less bold I act so things like the last photo won't happen.

Martin Wasner

12-10-2016, 2:57 PM

Let's be honest, some people care more about working fast than working safe. Of course, once they get seriously injured, they're not working at all.

I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.
I will not get sucked into this.

Martin Wasner

12-10-2016, 3:08 PM

It is nice to have that pile of shapers gone. At one point, I had seven of them. I would love to have a vertical panel saw, but really can't justify it for cutting door panels.

You might want to revisit the idea. The foot print is reasonable and the way I cut 1/4" door panels and drawer bottoms I'm rarely just cutting one part at a time. Usually they're double or tripled up.

Plus, on the safety side of things, you really have to be trying in order to hurt yourself on a panel saw.

But, I do agree dropping $25k on a saw for your limited application is a tough one to swallow.

Rick Fisher

12-10-2016, 10:17 PM

This compressor is Italian .. so it counts as Euro. Its very quiet.. and produces a pile of air. Its plumbed outside and blows the water in the tank outdoors.. which is actually quite loud .. Made by Mattei.. 80 gallon tank

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Cuba%202014/IMG_20150809_212743_zpshmufzmf5.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Cuba%202014/IMG_20150809_212743_zpshmufzmf5.jpg.html)

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/20161128_173424%201_zpsbl43rx6e.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/20161128_173424%201_zpsbl43rx6e.jpg.html)

Above is a 2001 SCM Sandya Win .. Its being replaced. Its 25" wide.. been a good machine.. In the distance a Martin Slider .. T-60C

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Martin%20T-60C%202_zpseyznenty.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Martin%20T-60C%202_zpseyznenty.jpg.html)

Blade guard is removed due to shipping damage

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/20160711_212849_zpsccuzd06o.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/20160711_212849_zpsccuzd06o.jpg.html)

Griggio 20" Thickness planer up close.. Its simple, heavy tank like planer.. Tersa head. Lots of nice features but painful electronics and controls.. Its 9hp .. with sharp knives it makes short work of most woods.

In the distance a Felder 900 Edge Sander. Actually made in Italy by ACM .. with a Felder ( Maggi ) power feeder

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Mini%20Max%2024_zps5c3ny6as.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Mini%20Max%2024_zps5c3ny6as.jpg.html)

Mini Max SP600 or MM-24 to us older fellas. Made In Italy .. 4.8hp ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Shop%20Progress%20_zps0ti88qnk.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Shop%20Progress%20_zps0ti88qnk.jpg.html)

A Felder RL160 Dust collector .. ITs a decent enough machine.. I wouldn't buy it again because the filter system is really not great for sanders.. The single phase model, which this is .. is also prone to over amperage.. This one runs 20 amps .. FLA is 19.. Its done this for 10 years.. Still running.. The motor is undersized in my opinion.

Joe Calhoon

12-11-2016, 6:30 PM

Your shop is looking good Rick! I like the floor.
Does the motor on the RL run hot? I am asking because I have a couple of smaller Euro machines with single phase motors and they are very hot to the touch after running a while. Have not had any problems with them yet.
I just set up a shop overseas with Griggio equipment and know exactly what you mean by painful electronics and controls. The castings and a few other things on them are good though and for the price not bad. I miss SAC for mid range heavy duty machines.

Rick Fisher

12-11-2016, 8:50 PM

The RL-160 comes with a 5.5hp motor in 3 phase.. I think that makes a lot of sense. They put a single phase motor at 4hp ..

The problem is that the 4hp motor has an FLA of about 19 amps.. and the machine will easily run 20 - 21 amps .. I had a run cap fail, which lead to a failure of the overload. The machine still ran and had I not smelled how hot it was, probably would have ruined the motor. It seems like I'm always conscious about not leaving gates open etc. to keep the amperage down.

I ordered a new wide belt. The Sandya Win has been good, but its really simple. It doesn't even have power rise / fall of the table. The new one will be here in April .. Its a Houfek 37" machine ..

****************
After that, I am going to get a new planer. I like the Griggio 20" .. I like the power, the segmented infeed roller. I like that materials never get stuck in the planer because the feed mechanism is really very good.. but I can't stand the table movement, the height indicator is vague.

I'm looking at the Martin, SCM and Felder .. SCM has some neat features that the other two don't have.. The feed mechanism slows and speeds up depending on the load on the motor. They have removable feed rollers which are pneumatically controlled. 12hp motor .. and a numerical controller .. This will be a 2017 expense..

Rick Fisher

12-11-2016, 8:56 PM

I run the compressor and DC single phase because I use a Phase perfect to supply the machines.. the wide belt needs air and DC... So having them 3 phase would drastically limit the amount of available power for a machine that has a large motor.

The new Wide Belt has pneumatic tracking, but it also has a timed Pneumatic belt cleaning device. No idea how much air that will use but I assume a large amount.

Joe . My Griggio planer has DOL starting at 9hp .. Ugh .. I had to change a fuse in the Phase Perfect 20hp because that 9hp motor would pop a fuse inside the converter on startup .. PP upgraded me from a 3 amp to 5 amp .. no idea what it does.. The Griggio is a fine machine, but 9hp without start delta is right on the edge ..

Felder and SCM seem to go Star Delta at 7.5hp ..

Warren Lake

12-11-2016, 9:31 PM

must be something different with different brands of Roto Phases my 10 hp TME Delta brand (not around anymore ) starts 9 and 10 HP no issues. Even the small one that had non of the fancey electronic stuff was a 3 hp and worked fine for 3 or 4 HP motors.

peter gagliardi

12-12-2016, 11:13 AM

I'm looking at the Martin, SCM and Felder .. SCM has some neat features that the other two don't have.. The feed mechanism slows and speeds up depending on the load on the motor. They have removable feed rollers which are pneumatically controlled. 12hp motor .. and a numerical controller .. This will be a 2017 expense..

Rick, I will be interested to know how you go about this, and what you end up with?? And maybe, if it's not too much, what your end cost is?
Are you planning to go and see each of these in operation, or at a showroom? Or, are you strictly going to decide based on their advertising info?
Curious your thought process around cost vs machine worth?
I have found that the quality levels between SCM and Martin, along with what is offered in technology is getting tighter between the two.
However, I went to IWF, and the visual quality difference and precision of manufacturing at least on the shapers is still high ground held by Martin. Also, the apples to apples comparison of features, that I thought would result in a much higher cost for Martin was not there, the Martin may have actually been less cost than the top SCM machine.
I am not necessarily advocating for Martin, as I was not impressed enough with the quality of what they offered , for what they thought it worth, to part with any cash.
The SCM sales people, and at the booth, generally shot themselves in the foot at every turn when I asked hard questions. As a matter of fact, my SCM guy did tell me that SCM will probably never achieve the fit and finish of a Martin, as that is not their focus.
Highest price should on at least some level indicate best quality
So, I have done nothing, and actually started looking for a lightly used Martin shaper of the T26 or T20 variety.

Martin Wasner

12-12-2016, 1:12 PM

Right now an scm S630 class is at the top of my list of planers. Seems to be the best bang for the buck. Casadei has one that looks good too, and in the same price range, but I don't know much about the brand other than there is a lot of Buselleto cnc's around here.

Rick Fisher

12-12-2016, 2:21 PM

Peter and Martin

SCM has some impressive technology .. The Pneumatically operated feed rollers seem clever. Not sure I would change the pressure much myself, but there are probably people who would.
The feed rollers are all easily removable so you can swap them.. again, not sure I would but it would be easy to send them to be re-surfaced in 20 years ..
They have a module that slows the feed down automatically if you stress the main motor. That makes a lot of sense because the sharpness of the blades will have a huge effect on the power needed to surface a board. A 1/4" cut on 2x12 on new blades is way easier than 3 month old blades.

Martin's people are by far the best trained that I've seen. You can ask them almost anything.. if they don't know, you get an email from some guy in Germany 24 hours later with an answer that makes perfect sense.

I want a controller that you punch in the depth of cut . say 2.00 inches.. then set the rise on the table.. say .15 inches. then each time you press a button.. the table rises .15 .. Also want it to be able to operate Imperial or Metric, and to be 2 speed on the rise fall motor .. so it doesn't take forever to reach the height.

The Martin is almost 1000 lbs heavier than the other two. Which is kinda Martin's thing.

Peter. I've seen all the machines at the AWFS show .. The SCM Invincible planer was in Atlanta about 3 years ago .. I agree that neither Felder or SCM's fit and finish is as nice as Martin. I remember the Martin is really quiet. Probably because its so heavy.

Any of the three are a fine machine. Felder has numbered cutters on their cutterhead. I love that idea .. I had a helical cutterhead .. you dull the middle way faster than the outside edges.. I would try to mark the ones that where turned with a black pen.. lol . Ugh..

J.R. Rutter

12-12-2016, 10:10 PM

Buselleto

One of my tooling reps calls them Bustsalotto. No idea if that is true, just funny.

Warren Lake

12-12-2016, 11:27 PM

the best improvement i could make to my 50 year old SCM planer would be a dial in speed feed motor like the Woodmaster has. I get you draw more with your knives not being as sharp and depending on your depth of cut., you can control that stuff. I cant control my feed rate one speed. If you can control your feed rate you can plane figured stuff and not have issues, in that way my little modified woodmaster can out perform the SCM and thats a bit sad really as the SCM is strong solid machine. Ive kicked the feed rollers in and out a bunch of times to slow it, engage disengage engage disengage back and forth before its up to speed that type of thing but its not ideal. I have to find a way to get a seperate variable rate gear motor onto the gear box and that will make it a better machine.

being able to decide your speed more for the figure of the wood

Warren Lake

12-13-2016, 12:25 AM

for you guys that have the Hoffman Machine there I have an older Morso, same machine that was for picture frames. Picked up for the price of a saw blade with an extra set of fresh knives. I took the picture frame stuff off stuff off it and made a back fence and use it for beaded face frames and mitered profile doors. It works well but not good without all the fancy fence stuff, it also cant clean out out the haunch, seems you both have a flat nose knife of some certain width. I still have to find another way to clean the haunch and have done it a few ways nothing im too happy with. Do remember one guy on a forum that had made a dedicated machine with Pneumatic pistons and linear bearings and the head travelled down to clean the whole affair out in one shot. also was one guy years back that said he had a custom knife for his mortise machine made up to do that, think someone asked and never heard of after that but essentially that would be the same concept as the Hoffman more or less but pulling a handle down instead of stepping on a foot pedal.

What width front knife do you have in those and how well does it work? mine cuts clean but its only a V shaped mitre. Do you drop in in several passes to clean it out then move along if need be to get your width, is the width of the head the same width as say your rails would be if you had mid rails between drawers? the digital readout one of you has looks excellent.

Bill Adamsen

12-13-2016, 8:10 AM

for you guys that have the Hoffman Machine there I have an older Morso, same machine that was for picture frames.

Warren ... if I recall correctly, the Morso NF accepts a nose cutter and is designed for notching. One quick identification is the oblong adjustment holes on the knives, or of course a flat haunching knife at front.

Not sure if I'm allowed to say this ... I have an extra set of fences and stops ... pm me if interested.

peter gagliardi

12-13-2016, 8:19 AM

Warren, in mine, I keep a front knife equal to or smaller than the smallest flat left between the two beads on the faceframe. I typically run 2" faceframe if I get to choose, but I have run 1 1/2" on client's or architect's choosing. So it works out that I have 2/ 1/4" beads with 2/ 1/16" quirks, for a total depth from edge of faceframe that = 5/16" per side x 2 = 5/8" total off 2" leaving a flat in the center of 7/8" on 1 1/2" width faceframe stock. I have all the front knives from 1" down to 1/4" for various jobs.
As you know, depending on where you are in the piece, you either nibble your way in from the bead edge to the face of the quirk, then nibble sideways to your length stops.
Or, you start nibbling in from one end to your stop, at full depth.
The digital makes things very accurate, along with some frequently used setups having a dedicated spacer block to quickly set up to.
There is a reason that there is a huge difference in cost between what you have, and what I have- the maker has figured out a almost palatable dollar cost for the "convenience factor" .
I was going to pick up the cheaper version myself and retrofit, but I never have any down time to futz with getting things like this up and running. A job comes in, that has a ton of this type work, and it is all fussy inset, and we are doing this at least several times a year. It doesn't take much of a " back of the napkin" financial decision to realize what needs to be done, and it never seems cost or time beneficial to re-engineer what has already been engineered

Bill Adamsen

12-13-2016, 10:28 AM

The digital makes things very accurate, along with some frequently used setups having a dedicated spacer block to quickly set up to.

Peter what are you using for the digital stop?

Warren Lake

12-13-2016, 11:39 AM

thanks for all the info, this unit I have is limited for sure in how it works but it cost 125.00 and came with an extra set of freshly sharpened knives and id been using a table saw and cross cut sled before that. It was a cheap way to get a taste of a chopper of some sort and have to say im impressed with how clean they cut

Peter had thought about your point and from logic the front if possible would be your smallest cross rail or cross style size. There are some fine dimensions you are playing with there, ive got tennons on the rails as well. Ill check my dimensions on all that, I guess I need a set up like that. Im still staying on mortise and tennon on the face frames and my doors. Its the old way I know and im pig headed at times, its slow but it was what I was taught, it has some advantages as well mostly its just peace of mind for me. I saw Joe has a router bit for cleaning stuff out, im not really set up for that no shapers that take a bit and router table stuff never got into it and dont have a good impression of it even though it works its almost like I dont want to hear the noise. wish that guy years ago would surface to see what kind of cutter he made for the mortise machine to clean out the haunch that seems logical to me. I should try a 1" wide mortise chiselwith no drill shank in it. Dont think it would be that good though.

You guys are awesome with the posts of your machinery and improvements and set ups, thanks to all of you for taking the time and sharing that, you are all very inspiring. thanks on the details on the notcher and how you use it. Ill try and get a photo of mine later, it will look like Flintstones and you will be happy you put out the coin.

peter gagliardi

12-13-2016, 6:42 PM

Peter what are you using for the digital stop?

I am using the Proscale digital stops and fences.

peter gagliardi

12-13-2016, 6:46 PM

Warren, I do all true mortise and tenon as well on doors , faceframes, and finished end panels. You can do all types with these units, with a little thinking out of your processes beforehand.

Warren Lake

12-14-2016, 2:08 AM

understand and it would even reduce the tennon width at the same time. Id have to check my dimensions and have to be thinking how I want to clear them now till I get a machine or some other way im happier with , in the past have used a router mounted in a shaper table and used a 1/4 bit, it had whip in it, 1/2 " would have been better, used table saw in different ways as well.

its pretty ancient but im still impressed with how well it works, I didnt even put the fresh knives in, I think I did hone the knives in it, cuts really clean, quietest machine in the shop :)

with no stops is mickey mouse but I just do a measure sample and then put a stop block there on either side.

Peter thanks for your dimensions ill take a look at mine tomorrow have sample pieces from the last piece or two. iF you are doing mortise and tennon on face frames, doors etc doors drawer fronts etc are you using a cope cutter set to make a proper tennon as well. not the beaded face frame but the others or doing mitered profile? I just miter them all im doing it for the face frames anyway, easy enough to carry that thinking through.

Morso was the name on this one guess Hoffman bought the company. no laughing now :)

349446

349447

peter gagliardi

12-14-2016, 6:40 AM

Warren, it depends on door profile style. I have some profiles that run cope and tenon on the shaper, others I just do on one of my single end tenoners. I only miter the profile on beaded, everything else is coped- by machine, or by hand if only one or two.

Rick Fisher

12-27-2016, 12:45 AM

Rick, I will be interested to know how you go about this, and what you end up with?? And maybe, if it's not too much, what your end cost is?
Are you planning to go and see each of these in operation, or at a showroom? Or, are you strictly going to decide based on their advertising info?
Curious your thought process around cost vs machine worth?
I have found that the quality levels between SCM and Martin, along with what is offered in technology is getting tighter between the two.

Peter..

I've pretty much finished my planer shopping and wanted to touch base.. I wanted a helical head. Martin offers the Xplane.. SCM offers the Xilent ? and Felder offers the Silent power. IMO .. they are all helical cutters. However.. if you get the Martin Xplane, they will increase the Cutter-head speed to 6000 rpm. Does it matter ? I dunno ..

In the end, I decided to go with Martin. If there is a problem, they are quite good to deal with .. I've had a few issues with my Sliding Table saw, but I've also come to expect issues with new machines.. I don't think I've ever bought a new machine and not needed service in the first 3 months..

I spec'd 10hp .. with a helical cutterhead, Variable feed speed, two rubber out-feed rollers, and automatic table lubrication. I didn't spec table rollers .. which I've always had, but I think it will be fine. I really like the idea of automatic table lubrication.. instead of forgetting to wax the beds. Lazy.. but .. well yeah..

My second choice was the SCM Invincible, I really think it would be an outstanding machine too..

In the end, I considered resale value .. I don't plan to sell, but if you list a good, clean used Martin machine for sale in our area, well .. its like selling Festool used.

Warren Lake

12-27-2016, 1:51 AM

Martin Wasner

12-27-2016, 7:48 AM

There's a SAC fs305 jointer for sale semi locally, the dude won't email me back so I can buy it, which is a little aggravating. The price is a little high, but it looks to be mint.

peter gagliardi

12-27-2016, 9:00 AM

Peter..

I've pretty much finished my planer shopping and wanted to touch base.. I wanted a helical head. Martin offers the Xplane.. SCM offers the Xilent ? and Felder offers the Silent power. IMO .. they are all helical cutters. However.. if you get the Martin Xplane, they will increase the Cutter-head speed to 6000 rpm. Does it matter ? I dunno ..

In the end, I decided to go with Martin. If there is a problem, they are quite good to deal with .. I've had a few issues with my Sliding Table saw, but I've also come to expect issues with new machines.. I don't think I've ever bought a new machine and not needed service in the first 3 months..

I spec'd 10hp .. with a helical cutterhead, Variable feed speed, two rubber out-feed rollers, and automatic table lubrication. I didn't spec table rollers .. which I've always had, but I think it will be fine. I really like the idea of automatic table lubrication.. instead of forgetting to wax the beds. Lazy.. but .. well yeah..

My second choice was the SCM Invincible, I really think it would be an outstanding machine too..

In the end, I considered resale value .. I don't plan to sell, but if you list a good, clean used Martin machine for sale in our area, well .. its like selling Festool used.

Rick, probably a better choice than the SCM. I visited a colleague last week who has an SCM planer with digital readout for thickness.
It appears the way it was engineered and built according to him, there is no provision for wear or lash in the raising mechanism screw, leading to inaccuracy. He also told me, that although the SCM has digital readout in inches, and also metric, you need to take the front control panel off each and every time you want to switch it, as the button to do so is behind the panel.
He ended up retrofitting his own aftermarket digital readout to the machine and disconnecting the OEM version.
Solid machine otherwise, but like all machines now it seems, you really gotta scratch your head at some of the engineering decisions made.
It is obvious noone seeks out or employs real world feedback from end users, or cares to do so as part of their R&D prior to putting it out in the market.

peter gagliardi

12-27-2016, 9:05 AM

Peter for the doors you cope are they true mortise and tennon that is you have the cope giving you some length or adjustable length and thickness of the tennon. Have you had any experience with the schmidt discs with Corrugated. Ive asked around up here and cant find anyone using them love to see how well they work, think there are about three sizes around 9" know there is newer insert tooling giving some length of tennon just havent had time to look at all this stuff.
Warren, I have one of their discs that i needed for a specific job on an entry door sized project. It worked well, and I would go that route again for a middle of the road cost option. You need good flexibility with your collar and shim assortment if you are running double copes- both faces of the door, to really dial it in.

Martin Wasner

12-27-2016, 11:25 AM

Rick, probably a better choice than the SCM. I visited a colleague last week who has an SCM planer with digital readout for thickness.
It appears the way it was engineered and built according to him, there is no provision for wear or lash in the raising mechanism screw, leading to inaccuracy. He also told me, that although the SCM has digital readout in inches, and also metric, you need to take the front control panel off each and every time you want to switch it, as the button to do so is behind the panel.
He ended up retrofitting his own aftermarket digital readout to the machine and disconnecting the OEM version.
Solid machine otherwise, but like all machines now it seems, you really gotta scratch your head at some of the engineering decisions made.
It is obvious noone seeks out or employs real world feedback from end users, or cares to do so as part of their R&D prior to putting it out in the market.

Most of those PLC controllers you can reset the numbers for whatever position it's at. Put a piece through, measure with a caliper, then just enter whatever your caliper is reading. Most....

My widebelt has a battery backup, and the battery died, so it didn't know where it was for height. That was a bit of a pain in the rear when I didn't know what I was doing, to get it's position set correctly again. The manual for the controller wasn't written in the greatest forms of english. Once I did it though it wasn't that difficult. I'm sure by the time the battery craps out again it will be all new information to me again though.

Darcy Warner

12-27-2016, 11:40 AM

I have two older scm/rockwell s63 planers. High HP on cutter head, nice finish, but the feed on both leaves something to be desired compared to my 24" and 30" Buss 4L's.

Great planers to compliment my 4L's for a finish pass though.

I have a newer SAC t145 shaper as well, nice machine, just not as heavy as I would like it to be.

Martin Wasner

12-27-2016, 12:25 PM

.I have a newer SAC t145 shaper as well, nice machine, just not as heavy as I would like it to be.

You've peaked my curiosity. In what respect are they lacking. I do cabinets, so I'm not swinging any massive cutters, but the two I've got are built like tanks. Another disclaimer, I was used to cheap Taiwanese shapers before realizing they were too expensive.

Darcy Warner

12-27-2016, 1:05 PM

You've peaked my curiosity. In what respect are they lacking. I do cabinets, so I'm not swinging any massive cutters, but the two I've got are built like tanks. Another disclaimer, I was used to cheap Taiwanese shapers before realizing they were too expensive.

I just wish it was heavier. I got use to my Invicta T14, Gomad tilting spindle, my t130.

The sac has a sliding table and tenoning fence. Has the typical iec wiring componets, I know they were made to hit a price point below the other Italian machines out there, so somethings need to be sacrificed. I just wish it was about 500 pounds heavier.

Martin Wasner

12-27-2016, 1:20 PM

I don't have any experience with the Invicta, but I'm surprised at the T130. I feel it's pretty lightly built compared to the TS120's that I've got. The two that I've got are different from one another. One has a 43" deck and just weight wise it's probably comparable to my T130. The other has a 51" deck, and I think it's about 1800 pounds. If it has to be moved, it takes a bit of a grunt on a pallet jack to get it rolling.

Like I said, just curious. I've got enough stuff that needs to be acquired our upgraded where the top of the line scm or Martin equipment is out of my price range unfortunately. I can't for anything else in this shop, but my new one has a lot of holes that needed to be filled.

Darcy Warner

12-27-2016, 1:27 PM

It's a nice shaper, just wish it cracked the 2000 pound mark. I believe it's right about 1600 pounds or so.

David Kumm

12-27-2016, 3:20 PM

Interesting stuff. I have a SAC planer and it seems to be a little heavier build than an SCMI. An early 2000s vintage so has had some of the adjustments either taken out or made more difficult. Machinery has more bells and whistles now but some of the complicated inners that allowed them to be adjusted for wear is now gone. The old Polish or Eastern block machines were pretty heavy. Newer shapers seem to have lighter and smaller bearings to allow for standard steel cage sealed ( crap ) bearings rather than the much more expensive and better oil lubricating systems that allowed for large high load precision bearings. My early 2000s T130 runs a 6011 top quill bearing vs the older double bearing set up or the 62xx series in my old Martin. New shapers have nice features and great fences but aren't built like the old ones. ( But I'm the only one who cares. ) Dave

Rick Fisher

12-27-2016, 3:38 PM

Good feed back Peter. I don't know how the Martin Planer changes between Metric and imperial but on the T-60C, I programmed the F key to do it, so I can swap back and forth as fast and often as I want.

Being Canadian, I use both .. After reading your comments on the SCM digital read-out, I hope the Martin Planer is like their slider.

peter gagliardi

12-27-2016, 4:51 PM

Rick, I don't think it will be any concern. My Martin shaper has a simple little toggle switch on the fence to change it, and my tablesaw has the inch/metric touch right on the main screen. Switching with a Martin is one thing they have figured well.

peter gagliardi

12-27-2016, 5:01 PM

I think an SAC is at least every bit as good a machine as an SCM in terms of build quality. It's too bad they didn't have the organised business and money behind them that SCM does. If you can't get good product from an SAC shaper, regardless of what it weighs, it is not the machine's fault.
Heavier build is better, to a point, then it is nothing more than a comfort to the owner.
My T21 probably was only 12-1400 lbs , and it cut better and ran smoother than any other machine I have owned.

Darcy Warner

12-27-2016, 5:16 PM

There is just no heft. Thin sheet metal cabinets, flimsy door on the front, plastic handles and knobs that always seem to break. One b section belt for 9hp, tilt and height gauges that are held on with magnets, just really small light weight components inside the cabinet, cheap plastic dust hook ups.

My gomad is 2 belt drive, much heavier frame, thick top, heavier parts inside, heck the spindle housing is way bigger than my t130.

Darcy Warner

12-27-2016, 5:23 PM

Although I will say there is no better pin router than the couple old SCM R9's I have. Heavy things they are.

Martin Wasner

12-27-2016, 5:57 PM

I agree all the "stuff" on a SAC shaper is sub par, at least the two that I've got. The bigger one, the rpm read out is toast, the door safety is jury rigged, the sight glass for the spindle height has a sticky spot that is always in the worst spot, the fence adjustment is in rough shape (which doesn't matter too much as is a dedicated setup), and the spindle lock is less than pleasant to engage. But for pure smoothness it's the best I've got.

I've barely used the other one that I've got, but I know the rpm indicator is also shot on that one, even though it is very low time.

Rick Fisher

12-27-2016, 9:30 PM

Peter . got any pics of your T-21 ..

Joe Calhoon

12-27-2016, 9:41 PM

Peter..

I've pretty much finished my planer shopping and wanted to touch base.. I wanted a helical head. Martin offers the Xplane.. SCM offers the Xilent ? and Felder offers the Silent power. IMO .. they are all helical cutters. However.. if you get the Martin Xplane, they will increase the Cutter-head speed to 6000 rpm. Does it matter ? I dunno ..

In the end, I decided to go with Martin. If there is a problem, they are quite good to deal with .. I've had a few issues with my Sliding Table saw, but I've also come to expect issues with new machines.. I don't think I've ever bought a new machine and not needed service in the first 3 months..

I spec'd 10hp .. with a helical cutterhead, Variable feed speed, two rubber out-feed rollers, and automatic table lubrication. I didn't spec table rollers .. which I've always had, but I think it will be fine. I really like the idea of automatic table lubrication.. instead of forgetting to wax the beds. Lazy.. but .. well yeah..

My second choice was the SCM Invincible, I really think it would be an outstanding machine too..

In the end, I considered resale value .. I don't plan to sell, but if you list a good, clean used Martin machine for sale in our area, well .. its like selling Festool used.

Rick,
No bed rollers is a good choice on Martin planers. They are truly a finish planer and also capable of planing down to a little less than 3mm with no tear out in most timbers. I have owned planers with bed rollers and always getting marks from material stuck in the rollers. You will find this planer does well with planing material on edge and keeping it square. Mine is 15 years old now and still going strong. We had to replace the rubber rollers a couple years ago but that is all.

We bought a 3 head WBS before we had our Tersa head jointer, planer and S4S machine. If I could do that over a light 2 head would have been a lot better choice. I am very happy with Tersa after we started using carbide and Kanafusa knives. Please give some feedback on Xplane head. It has a 3 row structure as does SCMs.

They go go back and fourth from inch to mm with just a switch. Yours has better electronics for going to a dimension than my vintage of planer and 2 bed rollers on outfeed is a improvement.

peter gagliardi

12-28-2016, 7:40 AM

Peter . got any pics of your T-21 ..
Not very good ones, but these-
350236
350237

Rick Fisher

12-28-2016, 1:31 PM

That's a heavy duty looking machine.. So much old Martin Iron is available in Europe .. its scarce here.. I wonder how big a deal it would be to bring over ?

Martin Wasner

12-28-2016, 1:57 PM

Probably not that big of a deal. Might have to get a transformer to get the voltage where it needs to be though.

I'd make sure it's crated 100% though. I'm guessing the survival rate would be quite low otherwise.

Andrew J. Coholic

12-28-2016, 10:57 PM

Maggi construction borer. We use it a lot for frames, door drilling, shelf pin drilling and assembling the odd melamine case or drawer box.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ajcoholic/ajcoholic052/IMG_2385_zpswf0f93kx.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/ajcoholic/media/ajcoholic052/IMG_2385_zpswf0f93kx.jpg.html)

Laguna Italian band saw. Set up for re-sawing and cutting the odd tenon.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ajcoholic/ajcoholic052/IMG_2384_zpswprrrq5m.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/ajcoholic/media/ajcoholic052/IMG_2384_zpswprrrq5m.jpg.html)

Spanish hydraulic copy lathe. We make our own turnings for railing jobs, stool and chair turnings, etc. We're a custom shop and low volume so this lathe (mid 80's) which works very well, and I picked up cheap, is a great asset.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ajcoholic/ajcoholic052/IMG_2380_zps07dyw4ca.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/ajcoholic/media/ajcoholic052/IMG_2380_zps07dyw4ca.jpg.html)

Canadian version of the Griggio C45 (9.5Hp main motor). Lovely saw. I have several shop made accessories like 3 pneumatic clamps, guides etc. Tigerstop fence as well.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ajcoholic/ajcoholic052/IMG_2381_zpsvugilyny.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/ajcoholic/media/ajcoholic052/IMG_2381_zpsvugilyny.jpg.html)

Omga radial arm saw (set for dead on square cutting, its our main solid wood cut to length saw) and older Omga chop saw for mitres and finer length cutting.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ajcoholic/ajcoholic052/IMG_2382_zpsdf2cqau3.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/ajcoholic/media/ajcoholic052/IMG_2382_zpsdf2cqau3.jpg.html)
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ajcoholic/ajcoholic052/IMG_2383_zpslp8q1qqh.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/ajcoholic/media/ajcoholic052/IMG_2383_zpslp8q1qqh.jpg.html)

Everything else is either made in NA, or mostly Taiwan, from Cantek. I have been super happy with the Cantek stuff I have. In my old shop, that I sold in 2010, we had more European made machinery, mostly Italian stuff. I was happy working with it too. I dont get too hung up on brands, weights, etc. If stuff works on a daily basis and doesnt break down, holds settings, etc to me its good equipment.

In the past 20+ years in business, we had only to change a few bearings on a Sicar planer, replace one drum on a two head widebelt (Italian made) and get a few motors rewound. In a smaller shop (3 or 4 employees) I feel if you keep things maintained - cleaned and lubricated - and fix the small issues before they grow into larger ones, equipment lasts a long time. I did have to replace the rollers in my Griggio a year ago (the ones that support the outrigger arm down in the lower section) but the plastic was hard and brittle, and the rollers started to crack and break apart. For a 2010 saw I was surprised. But, I just turned new rollers from some bar stock nylon on my machine lathe, and its been fine since. Otherwise the saw has been really good -cuts smooth and very accurate.

Rick Fisher

12-29-2016, 1:50 AM

Nice shop Andrew.. Nice machinery ..

Joe Calhoon

12-29-2016, 6:38 AM

Andrew J. Coholic

12-29-2016, 3:54 PM

Nice shop Andrew.. Nice machinery ..

Rick,
Thanks - what I have is certainly adequate for the business. Most of what I have was bought new, some used but in Northern Ontario there is no real woodworking industry, therefore no used stuff floating around. I am too busy to drive for days to auctions etc to try and get deals... as tempting as it seems at times. I have brought a few things up from the USA, but not too much. Most is sourced through a machinery dealer that takes care of getting things to my shop. I dont know how things are out west?

Andrew J. Coholic

12-29-2016, 4:04 PM

I always enjoy your shop stories Andrew. I have a bad addiction to German iron but the tools certainly do not make the craftsman. We produced good work way back with Delta machines and then later with Italian machines. I get caught up in the little details about the machinery but that is just me...

We had a Hapfo hydro lathe for a few years. It was a fun machine to play with and it did twisting and fluting. At the time the local market for turnings was non existent. I had planed to put together a internet site for turnings but about the same time the local architectural woodwork market took off and never broke into the turning biz. I like that you are able to take on custom furniture in your works.

Couple questions - the Omga radial, did you have a hard time getting used to the long arm? We just set one of these up in another shop and the arm always seemed in the way for reaching in and I never felt comfortable operating from either side. I am tall and possibly that was the problem. The shop guys there did not seem to mind it though. The saw came with a table that bumps out. I noticed yours is narrower and maybe that would help.

What is the brand of the manual cutoff gauge to the right of the saw?

thanks,
Joe

Joe,
At 46 yrs old, I never thought I'd have the shop and tools that I do have. My father worked for decades to get where I got in a few years, although I certainly owe the bank more $$ than he ever did, lol. And being in debt is a great motivator to go to work every day and be productive :)

I have to say that old lathe has done several nice jobs in the years I have had it. Its nice to offer my customers something other than the lumberyard offerings.

I have always had a long stroke RAS - enough to cross cut at least 25". I am 6' tall and I find the reach fine. I guess I dont know any better... the table does bump out at the saw but goes back a bit on the extensions on either side. I am right handed, so stand off to the left.

The bent stainless fence and stops are a product sold through Normand Machinery, based in Quebec. I believe they get it made up for them. The fence comes in 8' sections, then you buy the top part with the rule, and either flip or fixed stops. They are not the best company to deal with service wise (at least in Ontario) but the fence is reasonable and I have had one for 20 years. I just installed the sawgear fence/stop this past fall. So far so good. But the manual fence did the job for years and still useful.

Dont get me wrong either - I appreciate all sorts of higher end, and older machinery. I am just not attached too much to machines, other than if they perform what we need it to do in the shop to the standard I need it done, its fine. Cost of course is always an issue. I always try and buy the best I can for what I have to spend. I am not interested in buyign something that needs weeks or months of work to get back into action. You know how that is, when you have a shop to run with a backlog of work. Plus I have a 2 and 5 year old at home and time is at a premium, so my days of working 60 to 80 hours a week are over right now. In my 30's I worked 7 days a week, often going years without a holiday. THings certainly change when you are married an have kids... and how!

Andrew J. Coholic

12-29-2016, 4:13 PM

I forgot to show a picture of my vacuum pump on my small (48" by 48") CNC router. Its the only German stationary piece of equipment I have. Elmo-Rietschle 10Hp.

Rick Fisher

12-29-2016, 8:50 PM

Andrew J. Coholic

12-29-2016, 9:45 PM

Used out on the West coast seems limited to second hand Asian import, some euro factory stuff. We don't see any of the Oliver, Porter, Norfield finds that they get state side. I have a like for Old Canadian made General, would like to find a 220 Mortiser, the only ones I know of are at Ford Machinery in Ontario and seem expensive to me.

I was out in Mississauga recently .. Felder has a great new store.. Taurus Caraco was great.. seemed to have the most helpful staff. Nice people.

Yes, around Toronto there are several showrooms. Ive developed a really good repore with Akhurst MAchinery. Ive seen Felder and Taurus Graco's stuff. Southern ON is the place to see all that stuff for sure.

The fellow who used to work for me, and now runs my old shop just bought a nice mid line Felder edge bander and new slider. Im heading down this weekend to have a look (about 140km south of me). We worked together since we were teenagers, for my dad. WHen I wanted to move due to my getting married, he bought our shop turn key, and hired a few guys and kept working same as usual, while I started from scratch. He just put an addition onto the 4000 sq foot building, adding another 1000 feet or so. Picked up a really nice SCM boring machine as well. And a new dust collector. We have a good relationship and help one another out. I wish there were more woodworkers around here who liked to get together and talk shop. Most of the other shops do little of what I'd call custom work (mainly build boxes and buy in everything else). Im pretty open in sharing whatever I know, I have no secrets.

Joe Calhoon

12-30-2016, 6:12 AM

Thanks for the info Andrew. I had never seen that stop system before but it sounds like it is not mainstream. I installed a window machine in a shop that had a large Cantek up cut saw with a razor gauge automated stop. That was a sweet setup. We have a Graule radial that is accurate with a Glide Stop system. That works fine for our volume now. We still end up cutting mostly to length on the slider. Not the most efficient but just seem to prefer it.
I am 62 and started in 1976. The first 10 years in business we tough and there was no market for custom work locally. I realize now that was good and made it easy to get through the big slow down. The market really took off here in the late 80s and I had 15 to 20 good years, a good crew and good architects and contractors to work with. It was a tough pace though with long hours. I love the work and want to keep going only at a slow pace and on my own terms leaving plenty of time for skiing, grandkids and other activities.
i bought mostly new machines except for my first WBS, slider and dust system. Not much in the way of used back then in Colorado and before the internet. In semi retirement I have been acquiring a few vintage and some machines I bought new are almost vintage now. I spent close to 300 hours restoring a Martin T23. That would not have been possible back in the busy days. I enjoyed it but probably will not tackle something like that again.
Joe

Erik Loza

10-12-2019, 10:21 AM

Reviving this thread. Some interesting Euro machines from a recent trip. First, this Lobo bandsaw. If it didn’t have the badging, I would swear it was Italian. In fact, Meber if I had to guess. Yet, it apparently is US-made? Dave or you other OG’s, any thoughts?...
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Here, we have a SAC Sueri FS-305. This was interesting to me because “FS” in my experience, is always “jointer/planer”. The “S” being “spessore”, or thicknesser, in Italian. Yet, this was a straight-up jointer. See the ends of the parallelogram rods? In the legit shop style, no safety guards...
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Another machine which I pegged for Italian from across the shop but apparently is a Wadkin. Any of you OG’s know if Wadkin ever sourced out their sliders from someone else? Could also be German. Had a cold-scraped cast iron table and notice the slider bearing system, which appears to be the wheels like Altendorf...
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Lastly, hello gorgeous...
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