Extending glue set time - Help

[Dennis Peacock]

I am preparing to face glue a LOT of 12' long strips and pieces of wood to make a butcher block island top. Since the project is so large, I'm gluing up the top in 2 phases. 28" wide by 12' long in phase 1 and then phase 2 will be 30" wide by 12' long. Some wood had to be "spliced" to make the boards long enough to make the length span. My issue right now is that I've done a dry run of how long it will take me at 2 other people to glue up, shuffle boards, put face-to-face, put on cauls, put on clamps, and tighten up the cauls, adjust the pieces to line up flush on the top and finally clamp up for the glue to set.
This island top is to be used as a built in cutting board....so this limits my adhesive choices...right? I've thought about plastic resin glue since it has a longer open time, as compared to Titebond 3 which is about 10 minutes. The dry run I did last night puts me about the 12 minute mark for applying glue all the way to clamped up and let set to cure.

What about if I wet both wood faces before applying glue? Will that slow the glue long enough to buy me just a few more minutes before tack?

What are your thoughts and experiences on large glue ups like this?

[lowell holmes]

I buy my butcher top counter tops. You can find them competitively priced to making your own.

[John Lanciani]

If it were me I would do my initial glue ups narrower than the width of my planer. That way they can be run through the planer and then the sections can be glued together. Doing it this way will make for much less work than flattening a 30" x 12' section by hand. Also, depending on thickness, you need to keep the weight of the glue up in mind, especially if you plan to put it all together and then flatten it.

[Dennis Peacock]

Lowell,
This is a custom build with multiple species of wood, cherry, maple, white oak, red oak, black walnut, hickory, and etc....The prices I've been quoted is 6 times the cost of the materials I bought to build this island top. ;)

[Dennis Peacock]

John,
The final thickness of this top is 2-1/2" thick and each 13" wide slab would weigh about 130 pounds each. I decided to plane all the wood to the same height and use cauls to bring everything close to flat for easier final sanding. I've done tops before.....just MUCH smaller. :)

[Jim Breen (NY)]

On this site a few years ago, someone contacted Titebond with this same question (link below). The short answer is to thin Titebond III with 5% water to extend the open time 50%.

On a different note, are you sure you want to use red oak with it's open pores for a cutting surface? I've never made a butcher block, so I'm curious. I have a lot of off-cuts I usually throw in the fireplace.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?70479-Longer-open-time-glue-needed

[Chris Padilla]

I agree with Jim in terms of using any red oak for cutting on. All the rest of your species sound fine, Dennis.

If you really want to take your time and ensure a good glue-up, it is hard to beat epoxy for its wide variety of open times.

Yeah, it is more money but you can really dial things in instead of rushing and doing a poor job.

That link Jim provided is quite interesting although I might want to run my own experiment first to make sure that thinning 20:1 (5%) of TB-III will give you everything you want: long open time and a stuck joint (i.e. doesn't break at the glue line).

[Dennis Peacock]

The materials are what the customer wanted. So I'm giving them what they asked for. :)

I'll just use a bigger roller to roll on the glue and work through it. Just thought someone here would have some additional advice or pointers for doing things on this order of magnitude. :)

[Don Orr]

How about using the Tite Bond Extend glue?

http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=d7c6f86b-93cc-4400-99ed-79f8a75a2e95

[Dennis Peacock]

Don,
I'm willing to bet that the tite bond extend would be just the ticket, but there isn't a local supplier of the extended version of tite bond. Like a lot of things I need or use, I have to order.

[Prashun Patel]

I made a sapelle butcher block counter this summer. Glue up the strips one at a time. Allows you to get each seam perfect. Don't need to wait 24 hours before adding the next piece; an hour is fine. I did a few a day and then planed each sub section. It made cleanup and sanding at the end a snap.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I made a sapelle butcher block counter this summer. Glue up the strips one at a time. Allows you to get each seam perfect. Don't need to wait 24 hours before adding the next piece; an hour is fine. I did a few a day and then planed each sub section. It made cleanup and sanding at the end a snap.

This is almost exactly what I did on 6'x7' island top -- built 12"W x 2"T x 7'L 'planks' (weighed 54lbs each). Then glued 3 planks together and transported. Glued halves together onsite. No worries about open time.

[John TenEyck]

TB III with 5% water will definitely increase the open time by quite a bit. I recently glued up some LVL cores to make some veneered doors. Those sections were just over 12" wide and 8' long. I laid all the sections, minus one on the end, side by side on top of 4 pipe clamps, then clamped them together lightly. Then I poured on the glue, just TB II actually, and spread it out with a 4-1/2" wide foam paint roller (I use a 9" foam roller cut in two on a 4-1/2" roller frame.). Then I loosened the clamps, rotated each piece 90°, tightened the pipe clamps, and then added 4 more on top. Took less than 5 minutes. Something 24" wide might add another couple of minutes.

john

[Dennis Peacock]

Thanks John. That's confirmation enough for me. I just don't want to shoot $2500 in materials with a poorly planned and executed glue up. I've done that before with a much smaller project. I made no money on the project because I had to pay for the materials to replace what I screwed up. Lesson learned. ;)

[Prashun Patel]

Following up on John's post, I found long pipe clamps the best for the wide glue up. I also made a couple sets of 36" cauls to handle my 72" top. Securing 4 clamps was easy. Then I added a center clamp upside down on each set.

[John Lankers]

I also vote for moderately thinned TB 3, doing the glue up on a cool and damp morning can buy you another 5 minutes easily - but then, if I leave a door open this time of year the glue would probably freeze before it sets :eek:.

[Dennis Peacock]

I also vote for moderately thinned TB 3, doing the glue up on a cool and damp morning can buy you another 5 minutes easily - but then, if I leave a door open this time of year the glue would probably freeze before it sets :eek:.

LOL! Thanks John! I don't have the freezing problem here in Conway, AR. :) I do have cool temps with high humidity.....so maybe I'll raise the doors on the shop and apply glue with it cool and damp. ;)

[Jim Becker]

In addition to all of the above, since you have helpers, you can speed things up by assigning one person just to spread the glue via roller and have whomever is remaining of the team at their spots ready to add the cauls and clamps. Refreshments can sometimes provide additional helpers... :) I'm sure you're already doing this, but it really does come down to having a "system" for each iteration to keep things fast, but still accurate. I didn't have helpers when I did my kitchen island top and it was a royal pain...and that's a much smaller surface than you're working!

[Robin Frierson]

This is my favorite glue, Lee Valley cabinetmakers glue, and it has 15-20 minute open time.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=45104&cat=1,110,42965,45104

[Andrew Joiner]

LOL! Thanks John! I don't have the freezing problem here in Conway, AR. :) I do have cool temps with high humidity.....so maybe I'll raise the doors on the shop and apply glue with it cool and damp. ;)

I would test this at several open times. Glue small scraps from the batch of wood you'll be using for the top. Keep an accurate record of times and temperatures.

I had a new jug of properly dated Titebond fail on a small job years ago, so I learned a lesson.
Now I test all glues old and new before any important project.

[Mel Fulks]

When we made some tops for government we found it was faster and easier to stack glue 2x8 material then slice off on bandsaw ,face, plane ,joint and edge glue. Trying to glue 2 by 2 pieces was really messy and produced some open ends. Time was saved at wide belt sander since the tops were much flatter than the ones made from moulder run pieces ,many of which were too crooked to use. They told us they were the best ones they had ever bought.

[Chris Padilla]

How about using the Tite Bond Extend glue?

http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=d7c6f86b-93cc-4400-99ed-79f8a75a2e95

I've used TB-II Extend in the past and wasn't impressed. I don't know if this is the same thing or something new. I see they claim 15 minutes open time so it may be new.

[Jamie Buxton]

I use epoxy for long open time. You can easily have thirty minutes or more, depending on the temperature in your shop, and which catalyst you choose. And unlike urea-formaldehyde, there's no concern about carcinogenic outgassing. I use West Systems epoxy. System Three is equivalent.

[Frank Pratt]

Same here. And it doesn't seem to have the shelf life of regular Titebond. I had 1/3 of a gallon go bad after 4 years of storage in a cool, dark place. I've had the regular stuff last much longer.


I've used TB-II Extend in the past and wasn't impressed. I don't know if this is the same thing or something new. I see they claim 15 minutes open time so it may be new.

[Mike Walsh]

I used Titebond Extend to glue up a maple bench top - strips of 4/4 maple 7'x2-1/2" glued in sections. Was able to get glue on 4 faces well within the open time without going crazy. Bench is about 5 years old and top sill looks great

[Chris Fournier]

Plastic resin glue should be your go to. PVA is very inferior for your application compared to plastic resin. In fact I would use the powdered pre-cat product and have done so on large cutting board runs. 70 degrees F min!