Equipment for Tongue & Groove Flooring

[James Phelan]

I have recently “inherited” a collection of Douglas Fir salvaged from a 1940’s vintage property. I have a pretty large variety of types including 7” x 17” beams, 1.5” x 4.75” tongue and grove (2,000 square feet), and 1.5” x 11.0” joists (10,000 square feet). The wood was pretty high quality to begin with but as a result of the age and the salvage is a bit beat up now. However, most of it is in 20 foot lengths so I have a lot to work with in each piece. The wood also has some sentimental value as there was a lot of history in the building it was salvage from.

All of the wood is currently sitting on a property where I am currently in the process of building a house. I was originally going to use the beams in the house and then the rest of the wood was going to be used to make some cabinets and furniture. However, after looking at the tongue and groove I am now thinking about using it for flooring as well. Since I don’t have enough existing tongue and grove for the entire house (I need another 3,000 SF) I was thinking of ripping the 1.5x11” down to size and turn into matching tongue and groove.

This is where I need help. I am an amateur woodworker that can make simple furniture like shelves cabinets, and drawers. I build perhaps a couple of pieces a year in my free time. I have absolutely no experience with flooring. Despite the fact that my limited experience, money, and common sense tells me that I should find someone to do the job for me, I would like to do it myself. I have the materials and since the flooring will not be needed until early 2018 at the earliest I have the time to learn. However, I am not sure if I have the right equipment.

From everything I have read to date, I know flooring is going to require a much higher level of precision and throughput than tools I have been using to date. For starters, I currently have a Rigid table saw. Given the condition of the wood will this be enough precision to rip the 1.5x11” stock down to size or do I need to get a SLR saw or a jointer to run post ripped product through before going to the next step? I have a Rigid miter saw as well that has been a staple of my shop which I would use to cut to length. Is it going to be square enough for flooring or am I going to need upgrade that as well?

Finally, I know my Delta planer and Ryobi router are not going to cut it and have been looking at other options. I was originally thinking of upgrading from a router to a shaper but am now considering just going directly to a moulder. I am currently looking at getting the Logosol Ph260 ECO. This is a pretty big jump in terms of technology and capacity but it would be pretty useful for any future projects and I can recoup some of the costs by “renting” it out to a few friends who would be happy to have access to such a machine. Assuming I am willing to bite the bullet on costs, is this machine worth it? Are there any other makes/models I should be looking at?

Any thoughts on my equipment or even general advice on making flooring would be greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,

James Phelan

[Martin Wasner]

You're biting off more than you can chew. I own a decently equipped cabinet shop, I wouldn't touch that job with a ten foot pole with the equipment that I have, even if it were for my own house. I do realize you are talking about your own house.

You're going to need access to a sawmill to make the beams into boards, or at the very least a conveyor fed resaw.
You're going to need a really good straightline rip saw if you want to keep the 20' lengths.
You're going to need a moulder. The unit you posted is most likely too light duty to do what you want well. Even in Fir. Installing poorly milled flooring is a nightmare. Well machined is a dream. You will need something more like this (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/5843037295.html). Then you still have to buy heads, inserts, and a way to sharpen those inserts.


I would look to outsource it. I don't run any complicated mouldings in the shop. The guy I use charges $75 for setup. $.10/ft to rip. $.25/ft to run it through the moulder. I drop lumber, pick up mouldings.

Lets say you need 2000 sq/ft of flooring, and you want it all 3" wide. That's about 8000 ln/ft of material. That's $2900 to mill it. I'm not certain what they charge, or what their protocol is for end matching either. I'm sure that has added cost. I'd spend $200 here in the shop just disposing of sawdust and drops between labor and dumpster costs, but I have only the most basic of dust collection systems in the current shop. Bag dust collectors. Hogging out two edges, planing the top, and a relief cut on the back, you'll be dumping a two bag collector I'm guessing four times an hour. That's if your running at a fairly slow 20(ish)fpm. Figuring zero empty machine time at 20fpm, 8000 lin/ft will take six hours, forty minutes.


Personally, I think it's nuts to try it without the right tools.

[Rod Sheridan]

I've made flooring, in fact I have all the material milled for a dining room and living room in my townhouse.

I milled it from ash trees lost to the emerald ash borer.

I jointed it on the jointer with a power feeder, then planed it.

I straight line ripped it on the sliding table saw, then ripped it a couple of mm oversize on the saw with the feeder.

I have a head with insert knives for the shaper, that's the next step.

It's a ton of work, and as Martin indicated it generates a mountain of chips................Regards, Rod.

[lowell holmes]

I would rather build a house than make flooring, but that's just me.

I suggest you make one or two flooring boards with the equipment you have and see if that's really what you want to do.

[Ronald Mancini]

I've made lots of T&G for ceilings. The wood started as sawmill cut and ended up as finished T&G. I used 3/4 inch thickness, the other 3/4 inch on your wood will be a big job to handle. I used 10 foot lengths because they were easy to handle and about as long as I could get in Florida for a reasonable price. I figured that I carried each board 17 times through planing, jointing, sawing to straight, and molding two sides. Saved on cost, but I worked like a dog. The wood was 2nd cut cypress, and it looks much better than pine.

[J.R. Rutter]

~400 strips @ 20' cut from 11" wide joists? No thanks! Realistically, that is about 2 to 2.5 days with a SLR and moulder for one person, assuming there is good material handling equipment as well.

Maybe if you have some teenagers who would work for cheap. Figure it would take two of them a week to run that job on a table saw and Logosol.

[lowell holmes]

I've made lots of T&G for ceilings. The wood started as sawmill cut and ended up as finished T&G. I used 3/4 inch thickness, the other 3/4 inch on your wood will be a big job to handle. I used 10 foot lengths because they were easy to handle and about as long as I could get in Florida for a reasonable price. I figured that I carried each board 17 times through planing, jointing, sawing to straight, and molding two sides. Saved on cost, but I worked like a dog. The wood was 2nd cut cypress, and it looks much better than pine.

In a case like this, I would make the tongue and groove. It would be separate projects, the first being making the lumber. I have cutters for my shaper that will do the job.

I just consider running the shaper as a hazardous operation. There is so much exposure to eye damage from splintered boards and finger injuries. I have a shaper and use it, but I am on pins and needles as the saying goes while operating it. I've never been injured using it, but still . . . ....

[Martin Wasner]

~400 strips @ 20' cut from 11" wide joists? No thanks! Realistically, that is about 2 to 2.5 days with a SLR and moulder for one person, assuming there is good material handling equipment as well.

I think that might be conservative even. Fighting material that length would be a bear

[mreza Salav]

I'm crazy enough to have done many things most people won't do but building the flooring isn't one of them (and will never be).

[Jim Becker]

I'm with the subcontract it crowd. :) That's exactly what my general contractor did for the flooring we needed for our addition in 2008...we needed about 2500 square feet of wide pine flooring. He bought the material and had it milled by someone that specializes in running flooring. It's not just the T&G you have to deal with, but also the relief milling on the back side of the material to help insure it "ages well" over time.

And wow...I bet that D-fir makes for an outstandingly beautiful floor!

[Phillip Mitchell]

The fact that you are asking the question among experienced folks shows that you at least have some sense, though I think that attempting what you're considering without specialized equipment and experience is ridiculous. When you add up all the time and associated costs with acquiring and maintaining the right equipment and actually running the flooring, you will be way behind in $$ compared to what you could likely pay a couple of specialized folks to do it and likely do it better than your first time out. 20' lengths! You'd need another person at least at all times to help handle lengths like that.

I would listen to Martin as he as already pointed out exactly what I was going to say (and more!) and is exactly right in my experience.

I'd love to see some photos of all that Doug Fir! What was the building that it was salvaged from? Are you familiar with the (defunct) Long-Bell Lumber Company? Link here -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Bell_Lumber_Company . There has been some amazing old growth Douglas Fir salvaged over the years from their buildings and mills that has been coveted by timber framers from all over the world.

[James Phelan]

I greatly appreciate all the responses. It certainly confirms that I have asked the question at the right place. The fact that everyone is essentially saying subcontract the job is definitely not lost of me. However, it is something I still would really like to try for a few reasons. I have plenty of time, I think it would be a great opportunity for me dad and I to spend time together working on something that is tangible, and most importantly I think is an opportunity to teach my three daughters an important lesson. I see it as a great way to remind them that not everything comes in a box from China and show them that if you are really willing to put in hard labor you can create something special.

It does sound like I am going to have to upgrade my shop if I want to get it done in my lifetime however. I would greatly appreciate any recommendations on a SLR saw or alternative moulders to the Ph260.

348557

I have uploaded a picture of some of the wood above before it was properly stored. It takes up a 20' x 40' piece of my property and is stacked about 4' heigh. The existing tongue and groove is on the left and some of the joists are on the right with the big beams in the center.

Respectfully,

James Phelan

[Darcy Warner]

I run a Ekstrom Carlson SLR
an a Mattison 404. Check the chains, a new one is about 8k for the chain, my 404 has a new chain. Need lots of power and something big enough to move a 5 to 6 thousand pound saw.

[Jim Becker]

If you want to make the investment, you'll need to deal with thicknessing, straight-lining and milling. Unless you plan on going into the flooring business, you'll probably want to acquire machinery that's more versatile...heavy planer for thicknessing and a shaper with a power feeder for the milling processes. Straight-lining is a bit more of a conundrum in that respect. I can't make a recommendation there as I'm not familiar with that kind of machinery. Oh, and a lot of time for the repetitive work required to process all that lumber from start to finished flooring. I did one small room with wide white pine "manually" and it was almost more than I could handle!

[J.R. Rutter]

What kind of power do you have available?

The big American saws are well suited to handling long stock, but finding a good one might take some time. It might run counter to your theme, but the compact Asian SLR saws do fine if they have good infeed/outfeed support tables. I run 16' stock on mine with no problem (never received any lumber longer than this). Take your pick of models, but look hard at the anti-kickback pawls and get one with both overhead and table mounted fingers. Having a laser for lining up the first cut is nice, but a paint line on the infeed table would work fine for your job.

For moulders, if you don't need the back relief cut, a 4-head feed through is more compact, has lower power requirement, and is less money than a 5-head. Euro machines like Weinig, Wadkin, SCM, and Asian models like Leadermac, Northtec, etc. are all pretty similar and can be had in different motor voltages. Older American models are out there as well, I'm just not familiar with them. Do not skimp on dust collection.

[Brad Shipton]

I am not quite following the fundamental goal here. If this project is for one home only, and not multiple runs of flooring for future customers, then in addition to being a make work project it will be a huge money wasting proposition if you add a lot of equipment. If this is the start of a growing business, you will need to look into the equipment to offer a pre-finished product. After you build your flooring you will quickly discover the next job will require about 50% of the effort of the build. The typical home builder does not want to deal with flooring finishing and your average home buyer is mainly interested in cost when it comes to floors. You can teach your children the value of hard work in a number of other projects in the house. Personally, I would not use Doug-fir for my floors. I do not like the rustic look you get about 5-10 years after it is installed. I know many people do. To turn on the equipment JR and others are mentioning will require a 3phase 220V 200 - 300amp service. I would guess the cost of the equipment will start around $40k if you go with all used. You can snoop around the woodweb or exfactory and find all sorts of good deals. I have seen a lot of decent brand name four or five head moulders pop up for as little as $15 - 20k.

Other than your great room, 20'-0" long flooring stock is not very useful and even then it is kind of a nuisance to drag thru doors. It also tends to be quite wasteful as far as stock yield is concerned. I cringed when I cut down some 24'-0" long boards for my floors, but it made sense to yield better stock widths. Flooring manufacturers have a lot of good reasons for the flooring dimensions they make. If you want some long flooring boards you can get a finger joint cutter and put it back together. Joe C mentioned he had done that with trim boards and it was a good idea.

When I built my flooring my goal was to save money. Did I? Not on your life, but I found that out the time consuming way. I can say I do have much longer boards since I was a more careful picking my stock. Did I add value to my home? Nope. Other than some of the curved borders I made nobody ever notices the length or width of my boards. Even the appraisers fail to notice anything beyond checking off on their list it is hardwood. I like it, so that does not matter. I used more typical hobbyist type equipment. The last batch of flooring I tracked my time from rough to ready to install. The biggest part of the job is making the blanks. If you really are stuck on this idea that is the step I suggest you look at the closest. After you have the blanks it is quick sailing. I recall it took 33hours to make 200sq ft of flooring from start to finish and there was 4 or 5 45gal drums of waste. That is planing, straight lining, groove, tenon, squaring, and end matching. I believe I started with 300bdft of wood for that batch. I grossly underestimated the waste in my initial cost estimates. Would I do it again if I were starting over, NEVER. Now when I renovate I am stuck building it because I cannot find a reasonable match and pride prevents me from not using the expensive tools I store in my shaper cabinet.

[Martin Wasner]

It does sound like I am going to have to upgrade my shop if I want to get it done in my lifetime however. I would greatly appreciate any recommendations on a SLR saw or alternative moulders to the Ph260

What's your budget? Like JR said, what do you have for juice? A good moulder will likely total up to about 40hp, on 208v you're looking at 50ish amps. Plus whatever your dust collector will require.

Realistically, you could do it all with a cabinet saw, a good shaper, and a planer, but you better have plenty of time on your hands.

I recently helped a buddy make trim for his house, he's wiring my new shop, I did all the wood work in his new house. 8 piece casing with crown on top, the base was S4S with a cap. I sub'd out the crown, the cap on the base, and 99% of the base (we ran short a few pieces). The casing, backband, stool, apron, header, and ledge pieces we made in the shop.

I bet we had 120hrs in it between the two of us for what we did in the shop. The casing had to be ripped, sized in the shaper in two passes, sent through the widebelt both faces, sent through the another shaper in two passes for the profile (which was a panel raiser), then sent through another shaper twice to make the relief cut on the back. That could've been accomplished in two steps and one pass in a moulder. It took us 9 trips through a machine. The rest off the parts were simpler, but have similar stories.

We had easier material to deal with too.

If it wasn't for us trading labor, I wouldn't have done it. He needed trim, I didn't want to spend $110k wiring my new building.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm wrong on the amperage. I read the chart wrong, it's more like 110 amps.

[James Phelan]

It looks like I have a lot of research to continue to do but it sounds like my first step is to see if I can get a SLR Saw before I get a moulder. I am trying to figure out if I can get three phase power out to the barn which will determine how much flexibility I have with respect to make/model. Once I have a SLR I can see how much I mind spending hours ripping wood before a make another big investment. My worst-case scenario is that I will have one nice upgrade to the shop and something that will make all my other projects a bit easier.

I appreciate everyone’s feedback. Your thoughts have been very enlightening and I have a feeling I will be spending quite a bit of time reading through these forums from now on.

Respectfully,

James Phelan

[Joe Calhoon]

I made flooring out of wide recycle fir for our retail building years ago with just a 16" J/P, table saw and a heavy shaper. it was only 2000 SF so not a terrible amount of work but a lot of machine passes. At the time nobody local had a moulder that would handle it. We now have a 4 sider and SLR and do an occasional custom floor. Not my favorite thing because it fills up our 16 yard dump trailer in a hurry.

If you do it my advice would be to get the material kiln dried. wide plank floors will shrink a lot if even a couple points over normal MC. The other thing is to keep the T&G a little loose. 0.3mm is about right for flooring. We have had these 2 things come back to bite us on custom floors.

And then there is end matching to think about.

[Peter Quinn]

I worked in a flooring mill for some years, I may be biased. Making flooring sucks. It's boring by the third stick. There has to be a better way to enjoy time with your dad. Make toys for tots, outsource the flooring. The $10k investment in an SLR has few practical non commercial uses and takes up huge space to run, power, dust, etc. I'd consider sending out the material, get it in a kiln as Joe said, and have them rip your blanks at that stage at least. If you are a real masochist and determined to proceed a logosol would probably handle that run, might need a few knife changes, obviously bigger is better with molders but there is a cost/benefit point on a single run to consider. A proper set of tooling is critical, nail slots, off set lower shoulder, tongue .010 under the groove thickness, groove should hold the next tongue to the floor, reliefs help with cupping and sub floor irregularities, though at 1.5" you may not need subfloor. You can also do random widths to maximize yield, looks great, say 3"-5", split the 11's into 4's and 5's, less waste, less lineal footage to process. I've seen a number of people taken on home flooring projects over the years...they all end up feeling like Captain Ahab.

[Chris Fournier]

Do it because your stubborn and take pride in making stuff. Don't do it because it is the right thing to do.

I have made plenty of flooring, and bevel board in my shop. I enjoyed it in batches but it is cheaper to farm it out. Last lot of flooring I subbed out was 22 cents a foot. Killer deal.

[J.R. Rutter]

One question that I forgot to ask is: Are you going to deck your floors directly to the joists or overlay it onto a plywood subfloor?

[peter gagliardi]

I have made a lot of flooring over the years. I started with jointer, planer, and just a powerfeeder equipped table saw and shaper.
That is all you need, and all you should look at for this small quantity.
Make sure it is dry,
Joint flat,
Plane to thickness,
Set up your shaper with a carbide insert head with about a 5' infeed, and 5' outfeed fence about 1/4"- 3/8" offset infeed to outfeed. Powerfeed until straight.
Rip with powerfeed tablesaw and fence to consistent widths.
Set up shaper , run groove first, tearout edge pieces get bumped into tongue pile.
Set up shaper, run tongue.
Cut with chopsaw to length and install, with or without endmatching- use a biscuit jointer if you care.

This is really not that big a deal.
I wouldn't even bother with an SLR- waste of time and money- not designed for, or accurate enough for the lengths mentioned.
When you are done, you have the perfect underpinnings for a basic woodworking shop, not an industrial one that you may or may not use or have the room for.

I do woodworking for a living, and have an SLR and a molder now, but I didn't at the start and made thousands of feet before I did.
Big machines are not necessary, but what they do do is make the work easier, quicker, and someday more profitable. Convenience costs money.
Of course if you wanted convenience, you would just sub it out or buy flooring, but that is not what you are after

[J.R. Rutter]

There is a lot of good advice here. It made me think about greater lessons beyond doing hard work to build something for yourself. It *might* be worth taking a bigger picture approach and considering a lesson about how to make things happen in the world. A big project like this could have a couple of takeaways for younger people.

One is that hard work pays off. Don't be afraid to get dirty, get splinters, get aching muscles, and keep at it until the job is done. End up with something you can really be proud of. Nothing wrong with that, and a LOT to recommend it. It is a life lesson that Mike Rowe would be proud of. There is no question that the job can be done with basic tools that will have value to a hobby shop later on. Possible risk is that by the end, the kids will never want to do anything similar in the future. Depends on the kids and how the project comes together.

Another possibility is to look at a problem, figure out what it would take to solve it from a business standpoint, and implement that solution. Capitalize with the most efficient tools you can afford, preferably used equipment that has already been depreciated. Create a flooring factory in the barn and blast it through. When the job is done, shut down the flooring factory. (Maybe even keep it running part time if your area needs one.) Sell off the assets at or slightly below what you paid for it. There is no question that the "right" equipment can make this a relatively easy run, after a learning curve. Possible risk is that no-one else wants to buy your equipment and that the kids are not interested in entrepreneurship. Depends on the kids and how the project comes together.

There might be a middle ground as well, as there are many levels of equipment between the bare minimum needed and the industrial solution.

Hehe, any thoughts?

[EDIT] I forgot the third possible lesson of making the decision to outsource instead! Maybe that is the true capitalist way ;)

[Nate Sitz]

I'm a hardwood flooring contractor, and I personally wouldn't want to deal with it. The appeal of having the visual of a floor you created might be ruined by memories of how much longer the milling took, or how your significant other made you sleep in the yard. You're going to have enough fun installing 1.5" thick flooring since a regular flooring gun won't work at that thickness. I wouldn't lose any sleep over not having the flooring end matched, I've never seen fir that was end matched and I've sanded tons of it.

[Joe Calhoon]

We have never end matched any floors we produced but a lot of builders have requested it. I also do not think it is necessary. I know one custom floor producer that finally set up for end matching. It takes expensive machinery and you would have to be a serious producer to justify the cost.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I remember helping my father manufacture LOTS of hardwood flooring back in the 80's and in my teen years during the 90's. We usually did wood species not readily available, or wide plank, etc. Stuff that wasnt yet common at least where we live.

A good jointer, planer and saw along with a decent set of cutters on a commercial duty shaper. Not very hard to do. Sure, it gets a little boring but not a job I'd even turn down today, if someone wanted us to manufacture. We still do small batches, for matching existing flooring not available anymore.

The general tone of this thread is it is not worth while. That I wont say one way or the other. What I will say, is if we can do a run of several thousand feet with the equipment we have (no moulder, no slr saw) it can certainly be done. And, we always have, and will, machine the ends - manually on the shaper as well. In my last shop we had a massive tenoning attachment for the shaper. Certainly made things easier.