Zinsser shellac advice wanted

[Derek Cohen]

I am building kitchen doors and drawer fronts from US Hard Maple. The aim is to keep to wood light in colour - so the plan is to use a blond shellac.

Rather than use the local Ubeaut white shellac, which requires thinning with alcohol, I am considering using Zinsser out of the can.

Zinsser comes in two forms, the waxed Bulls Eye Shellac, and the dewaxed Seal Coat. Only the Bulls Eye is available in Australia.

What is the difference between these two if the wood is not to be stained/dyed and no other finish is to be applied? As I understand, the de-waxed shellac is the choice when another finish is used against it. Is this correct?

Are there advantages/disadvantages of using the waxed version?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

I am building kitchen doors and drawer fronts from US Hard Maple. The aim is to keep to wood light in colour - so the plan is to use a blond shellac.

Rather than use the local Ubeaut white shellac, which requires thinning with alcohol, I am considering using Zinsser out of the can.

Zinsser comes in two forms, the waxed Bulls Eye Shellac, and the dewaxed Seal Coat. Only the Bulls Eye is available in Australia.

What is the difference between these two if the wood is not to be stained/dyed and no other finish is to be applied? As I understand, the de-waxed shellac is the choice when another finish is used against it. Is this correct?

Are there advantages/disadvantages of using the waxed version?(esp water-based)

Regards from Perth

Derek

The SealCoat version is dewaxed, while BullsEye isn't IIRC. There is no practical difference between waxed and dewaxed if you aren't putting anything else over it. As you say dewaxed works better as a base layer with certain finishes, especially water-based ones.

Why don't you want to use flakes though? Dilution is pretty simple if you have a scale, there's a wide range available, and they last a *lot* longer even than Zinnser (which is chemically stabilized and lasts longer than most mixed shellacs). I particularly like the Brooklyn Tool and Craft dewaxed shellacs (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-TF.XX/BT&C_Tiger_Flakes_Shellac) that Joel and LV both carry. They're on the expensive side, but they're of high quality and purity with no bark particles etc.

A few random notes:

The Zinnser shellacs are 2 lb (SealCoat) or 3 lb (BullsEye) cuts, which are on the heavy side, so you might not want to use them "out of the can" unless your technique is both fast and flawless or you fancy sanding out brush marks. A lot of books recommend 1 lb for starting out, I personally use mostly 1.5 lb and sometimes 2 lb these days (though I always prepare 3 lb cuts and then dilute for each use). Note that when you dilute the Zinnser stuff with denatured alcohol you'll undo their chemical stabilization, so only dilute what you need
The wax in shellac settles out over a few days, so you can (mostly) dewax shellac by letting it sit in a tall container and pouring off the clear part. It won't be as pure as properly dewaxed shellacs like the BT&C stuff, but it'll be good enough.
The reason people advocate shellac as a base layer is because it's compatible with most other finishes, and does a good job of blocking things like silicone and resin.

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

I believe dewaxing is strictly to ensure compatibility with ensuing topcoats; iirc, all the instructions I've ever read for Sealcoat are about priming/sealing, no mention of its finishing properties... which are great. I've heard regular (unwaxed) shellac rubs out easier, but have no experience with it. I think the primary consideration for using Zinsser out of the can is that the cut for both Bullseye and Sealcoat can be too heavy for application on anything sizable or multi-faceted... so you might have to thin it anway.

[Phil Mueller]

Not much that hasn't already been said here, but to say that I use out of the can all the time. I do cut it 50/50 with DNA (just because I'm more confident wiping on lots of thinner coats). I have found it to provide a great finish that polishes out well.

[Frederick Skelly]

Derek,
I don't know how much stock you put in Bob Flexner, but I've found his advice to be good for what I build. According to Flexner, "The wax slightly reduces the transparency of the shellac on the wood. It also makes the shellac less water resistant, and it prevents good bonding...."

However, he also says "Shellac is not especially durable. It scratches relatively easily, and heat, solvents, acids and alkalis cause damage fairly easily." Though he follows that with "Even though shellac can be damaged more easily than other film finishes, it's still durable enough for use on most wooden household objects." (All of this is from his Understanding Wood Finishes book, chapter 9.)

I recall reading somewhere that dewaxed shellac gets a little harder and therefore is a little more durable, than waxed shellac. But I can't find a reference to support that right now.

I looked for an explanation of why there is wax in shellac, and he says "Most shellac still contains its natural wax." This implies to me that it's just there - it wasn't put there to serve a function. But maybe George or one of our other Professionals can better speak to that.

I use Sealcoat on a lot of small light wood projects and it works very well. I've also done as Patrick (and Flexner) suggest and let the wax settle out, then pour off the dewaxed portion. That was just fine too.

You always help me, so I hope a little of this will help inform your decision.

Best regards,
Fred

[Patrick Chase]

I looked for an explanation of why there is wax in shellac, and he says "Most shellac still contains its natural wax." This implies to me that it's just there - it wasn't put there to serve a function. But maybe George or one of our other Professionals can better speak to that.


That's right, the wax is part of the Lac beetle's secretion.

[Patrick Chase]

Derek,
I don't know how much stock you put in Bob Flexner, but I've found his advice to be good for what I build. According to Flexner, "The wax slightly reduces the transparency of the shellac on the wood. It also makes the shellac less water resistant, and it prevents good bonding...."

The "..." part of that sentence is fairly important and relevant. It continues: "[the wax] prevents good bonding when reactive and coalescing finishes (varnish, two-part finishes, and water base) are applied over shellac".

To be honest I'd forgotten until just now that the wax was a problem for oil-based varnishes. I mostly use dewaxed anyway.

FWIW Flexner recommends 1-1.5 lb cuts for people starting out with shellac. I personally find ultra-thin shellac to be a bit tedious so I use 1.5-2 lb.

[Prashun Patel]

Bullseye and Sealcoat are approximately the same color of blonde. Both will make the maple appear slightly golden. If you want it strictly white you would do better with the "platina" flakes or to use a lacquer or a water based top coat.


I use sealcoat under water based final she's precisely because it gives a little color and life.

[Patrick Chase]

Bullseye and Sealcoat are approximately the same color of blonde. Both will make the maple appear slightly golden. If you want it strictly white you would do better with the "platina" flakes or to use a lacquer or a water based top coat.

BullsEye comes in a "clear" and "amber". The "clear" is indeed the same color as SealCoat, a bit darker than BT&C super-blonde (and darker still than "platina"). The "amber" is roughly in line with others makers' amber shellacs.

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek, if you need a visual reference, most if not all of the frames on my blog are hard maple finished in super blonde. I mix flakes with DNA.

If the Zinsser stuff is darker than this I think you will want to use platina to get a very clear appearance. I like the result of super blonde, but it does darken the wood slightly.

[Dave Cav]

I've used lots of shellac, mostly for boxes, small projects and shop/utility cabinets. I think it would be about my last choice for kitchen cabinets due to it's relative lack of durability and lack of solvent resistance.

OK, actually straight BLO would probably be my last choice for kitchen cabinets....

You can get some pretty good "water clear" water based finishes these days. They don't change the color of the wood and would be more durable than shellac. They don't pop the grain, though, so you would need a light undercut of BLO or dewaxed shellac.

And I can also recommend Flexner's book. I wish he would write another one strictly on WB finishes.

[glenn bradley]

Prashun hit on my feelings about coloration. While Seal Coat is pretty clear, if you want very clear I find that Minwax Polycrylic (water based) stays remarkably clear over time. It is recommended as a brush-on finish but, I have padded it like shellac (multiple thin coats) without issue. I'm not sure about availability but, Wal Mart carries it and they're everywhere ;-)

[Prashun Patel]

Bullseye and Sealcoat are approximately the same color of blonde. Both will make the maple appear slightly golden. If you want it strictly white you would do better with the "platina" flakes or to use a lacquer or a water based top coat.


I use sealcoat under water based final she's precisely because it gives a little color and life.

[Patrick Chase]

Prashun hit on my feelings about coloration. While Seal Coat is pretty clear, if you want very clear I find that Minwax Polycrylic (water based) stays remarkably clear over time. It is recommended as a brush-on finish but, I have padded it like shellac (multiple thin coats) without issue. I'm not sure about availability but, Wal Mart carries it and they're everywhere ;-)

I actually shot that stuff out of a (traditional neanderthal) HVLP gun once for kicks. It worked OK, though IIRC I had to use a small orifice and relatively high pressure to get good atomization as it's definitely on the thick side.

[Derek Cohen]

Prashun hit on my feelings about coloration. While Seal Coat is pretty clear, if you want very clear I find that Minwax Polycrylic (water based) stays remarkably clear over time. It is recommended as a brush-on finish but, I have padded it like shellac (multiple thin coats) without issue. I'm not sure about availability but, Wal Mart carries it and they're everywhere ;-)

Thanks all. The reason for considering blond shellac was my understanding that it does not add to the colour of the Maple. It is obviously not as durable as I thought. Zinsser Seal Coat is also not available in Oz, so that puts it to bed.

Tell me about Minwax Polycrylic. This sounds interesting. I do not have spray equipment and would wipe it on.

Is your experience that it remains clear? And what is the preferred method of application? How durable is it?

It is also available in spray cans. Any comments on this?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

I used Polycrylic on some hard rock maple that I wanted to stay very light. It has been on for some years and I saw the frame that I used it on just a few days ago during a holiday visit and it still had no signs of yellowing so I was pretty happy with it. I heard about it on one of the forums where someone was trying to do just what I was trying for; a very clear and non-yellowing finish. It is a polyurethane and I used it out of the can. It is also available in rattle cans if that will suit you.

http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/clear-protective-finishes/interior/minwax-polycrylic-protective-finish

[Patrick Chase]

Tell me about Minwax Polycrylic. This sounds interesting. I do not have spray equipment and would wipe it on.

Is your experience that it remains clear? And what is the preferred method of application? How durable is it?

Minwax Polycrylic is a water-based clear. IMO its main attractions are that it's cheap and widely available. It's reasonably durable (more than shellac, less than quality oil-based varnishes) and doesn't yellow with age. A few thoughts:

There are more durable non-yellowing water-based clears out there, though I don't have a huge amount of experience in this area so I'll leave it to others. Coming up to speed on the current state of WB finishes is on my TODO list.
Polycrylic dries a little bit milky, so it's not the best choice if you're planning to build up a massively thick film. IMO this isn't much of a practical issue though.
Your requirements strike me as a good fit for a CAB-Acrylic lacquer. The pre-catalyzed ones in particular are reasonably easy to work with and quite durable in my experience. We're getting into what many people would consider fairly exotic finishes here, though.
Speaking of fairly exotic finishes, if you're really after maximum durability then you might consider doing what high-end auto manufacturers do and use a clear polyester topcoat. They're not exactly easy to work with, though, and IMO the super-high-gloss "wet look" is overpowering for fine work. I replaced the top of my standing desk with a solid-wood-edged sheet of 3/4 Maple die board a while back, and sprayed it with polyester. It works great in that sort of application.

[Patrick Chase]

One other thought. Shellac has two big plusses, that may or may not matter to you:

First, it's incredibly easy to repair both because it can be "re-flowed" and because any added shellac will fuse seamlessly with the existing finish. It's probably not the best choice for an end user who wants to "fire and forget", but I love it for stuff that I'll keep.

Second and closely related, it rubs out very well. This is so because overlapped coats fuse together into a single film, so you don't get visible contours when you rub through layers.

Nitro lacquer (which yellows) shares both advantages, though CAB-acrylic does not.

[Patrick Chase]

One final remark: In the US the Kitchen Cabinets Manufacturers' Association (KCMA) publishes tests and certification standards for cabinets. Any finish that meets KCMA requirements (http://www.kcma.org/industry/ansi-kcma-certification)is probably going to be just fine. Scroll down to the "Finish Tests" section.

Of course the catch is that most KCMA finishes are 2-part systems of some sort (catalyzed, pre-catalyzed, conversion, 2K).

Here's an example (http://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWOEM&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=V84V80) (a fairly typical water-white catalyzed conversion varnish) to help get a feel for what sort of finishes I'm talking about. Note the chemical-resistance laundry list on the second page.

[Derek Cohen]

What I am after is a durable finish that remains clear and retards yellowing, and that can be applied by brush or, preferably, wiping. I am not interested in a two-pack finish that requires spraying with special masks and protection. I would consider a suitable spray can option.

One of the reasons I ask here is that the Hard Maple is a wood known to the forum members. It is not a wood commonly used in Oz.

I have started building the doors for our kitchen. Hard Maple is so nice to work. Planes beautifully and easily. I cannot believe how easily!

The design is a Shaker style, chosen for a clean, simple look. This will replace a 22 year-old existing kitchen in Tasmanian Oak with a more traditional raised panel style.

Unfinished and even not yet glued - first door ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Kitchen/First-door_zpssczexian.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Due respect, I personally wouldn't pick shellac for a kitchen. In my kitchen spray and grease and worst, rubbing and occasional scrubbing would compromise the finish. I know there are plenty of people who think shellac is perfectly durable, but in MY experience, it's not appropriate for a heavily used table or cabinets. YMMV.

Do you have an HVLP sprayer, Derek? I know you said you don't want to spray something requiring special masks and protection, but the waterbased options - while I wouldn't consider them safe to breathe - are easier to spray because you can use normal fans to vent.

Your color requirements, durability requirements, and breadth of the project would steer ME to spraying a waterbased product. Personally, I haven't had the best luck with Minwax Polycrylic. I have had superior results with General Finishes Clear Poly on bathroom and bar cabinets. If you can obtain a comparable product Down Under, I would use that. FWIW, this product can be brushed. But I find it builds a little to thick that way and looks a little plasticky. Spray Baby, Spray.

And I think the training your Australian hardwoods give you has made planing US maple comparably easy. Personally, I find maple one of the harder woods to plane cleanly. One of these days, you'll have to try US cherry, walnut or butternut... You'll think it's cheating.

[Pat Barry]

I would think that the folks in the finishing forum would have some good feedback for the OPs question. Is Scott Holmes still active?

[James Waldron]

Due respect, I personally wouldn't pick shellac for a kitchen. In my kitchen spray and grease and worst, rubbing and occasional scrubbing would compromise the finish. I know there are plenty of people who think shellac is perfectly durable, but in MY experience, it's not appropriate for a heavily used table or cabinets. YMMV.



I'll go with this thought. Shellac is just not durable enough for any kitchen.

I've had good results with the Minwax brushable acrylic polyurethane "Polycrylic" and have managed to wipe it on when thinned a bit. Easy to brush, too, if a good brush is used to lay on thinned coats; if applied too thick, it will give brush strokes, because it begins to set up rather quickly.

For a thinner, I've used "Interlux Reducing Solven 2333N" specifically designed for thinning polyurethane paints and varnishes for brushing. Check with a marine supply source to find Akzo Nobel Interlux products. I wouldn't go beyond 10% by volume thinner; 5% is probably quite enough. I have this stuff around for painting and varnishing boats so it's what I've used. There may be other brushing thinners that would be equally effective, but I don't know them. The key is to thin with something that will not flash off too fast so the applied finish has time to "level" but not stick around so long that the stuff develops sags and runs. (If you apply it flat on your bench, runs and sags won't be much of a threat and you may be able to use a simpler approach to thinning.)

The Minwax goes on quite clear and colorless; it stays quite clear and colorless for quite some time. I've got a hard maple piece that's going on nine years and still as fresh as new. The coating is tough and scratch resistant and impervious to any chemical attack likely to arise in a kitchen. Because it goes on fairly thin, it doesn't give the "embedded in plastic" look of some coatings. If you don't want a gloss finish, you can put on a couple of extra coats and rub it out the old fashioned way with rotten stone or pumice or take the modern easy way out and sand with 1000 grit and/or 2000 grit sanding medium.

[Patrick Chase]

What I am after is a durable finish that remains clear and retards yellowing, and that can be applied by brush or, preferably, wiping. I am not interested in a two-pack finish that requires spraying with special masks and protection. I would consider a suitable spray can option.

The reason I brought up 2-part conversion varnish was to test whether you placed enough emphasis on commercial-kitchen-cabinet level durability to make tradeoffs in application and complexity. The answer appears to be a resounding "no".

It therefore sounds like you *require* non-yellowing, single-part, and brushing/wiping (preferred) or aerosol (if absolutely necessary) application. You then want to *optimize* durability as much as possible within those constraints. Given that this is for a kitchen you probably want an emphasis on moisture and chemical resistance in addition to mechanical durability. Is that about right?

As others have pointed out, shellac is not a good option for those requirements. Mechanical durability and moisture resistance aren't very good, and some common kitchen cleaners will dissolve it.

As Prashun said you might want to take this to the finishing forum.

I suspect your best bet will be what I said in post 17: A precatalyzed CAB-acrylic lacquer, like Hydrocote Resisthane Plus.

[James Pallas]

I don't have a lot of experience with minwax polycrilic. I have done several pieces with it and I do like it. The first pictures are of a tansu style piece that is 3 or 4 years old of red and white oak, pictures are today. The box is from last year on the day completed. The drawer section is from a year ago and has a light stain on it. As far as application, I used a fine nylon brush and kept a very wet edge. If it starts to rope up on you you will need to recoat. It flows out ok when kept wet. Not much working difference from shellac.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

Nit-picking myself...



I suspect your best bet will be what I said in post 17: A precatalyzed CAB-acrylic lacquer, like Hydrocote Resisthane Plus.

Hydrocote Resisthane Plus is a precatalyzed water-based acrylic lacquer. not CAB-acrylic. I think something like that is still going to be your best bet. It's single-part, non-toxic, brushes and sprays well, and is more durable than Minwax Polycrylic. "Precatalyzed" means that the catalyst is mixed in at time of manufacture. Shelf life will shorter than 2-part or noncatalyzed finishes, but that doesn't sound like a big issue for you.

There might be something even newer and better of course :-).

[Patrick Chase]

I don't have a lot of experience with minwax polycrilic. I have done several pieces with it and I do like it.

I did some "utility furniture" (my son's lego trays, some bookshelves) with it several years ago. I remember it brushing on reasonably well but raising grain more than some other WB finishes I've used. I looked at that furniture today, and the finish strikes me as fairly soft and shows more signs of wear than I'd expect from, say, a quality poly varnish.

[James Pallas]

I did some "utility furniture" (my son's lego trays, some bookshelves) with it several years ago. I remember it brushing on reasonably well but raising grain more than some other WB finishes I've used. I looked at that furniture today, and the finish strikes me as fairly soft and shows more signs of wear than I'd expect from, say, a quality poly varnish.
I made a step chair over a year ago. The chair is shellac, I used polycrilic at the feet. It is used every day and many times by grandkids. It gets dragged around on a rough (stone look) vinyl floor. The polycrilic looks like it is holding up okay to me. Pics attached of a leg and the floor.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

I made a step chair over a year ago. The chair is shellac, I used polycrilic at the feet. It is used every day and many times by grandkids. It gets dragged around on a rough (stone look) vinyl floor. The polycrilic looks like it is holding up okay to me. Pics attached of a leg and the floor.
Jim

The problem with attributes like "durable" is that it always comes down to your frame of reference. Compared to BLO or shellac Polycrylic is bombproof, and more than adequate for typical furniture use. Compared to any ANSI/KCMA-compliant finish it's laughable.

I'd describe it as an unexceptional water-based acrylic. IIRC FWW seemed to agree when they tested it 2006 or so - they did the usual pencil-scratch test (to determine the softest grade of lead that scratches the finish) and scored it as one of the softest water-base finishes.

[Jerry Olexa]

The dewaxed allows you to topcoat it with your choice....Adhesion is the issue with non dewaxed..

[Mel Fulks]

Durable context. I have seen kitchen stuff tossed that was coated with conversion varnish that made it impractical to refinish after abuse. Granted ,people usually just want new stuff and don't want to refinish. Can't very well sand it off of veneer,it's so durable it's a pain,let's replace it! Types and qualities of shellac vary but it was used by US government as ingredient in wooden boat hull coatings through WW2. Things like mine sweepers that had to be wood. Quality fresh shellac applied to furniture handles water pretty well, and shellac is easily removed when neccesary; so the furniture doesn't have to be discarded. I'd say it is durable and makes the furniture durable.

[Patrick Chase]

Durable context. I have seen kitchen stuff tossed that was coated with conversion varnish that made it impractical to refinish after abuse. Granted ,people usually just want new stuff and don't want to refinish. Can't very well sand it off of veneer,it's so durable it's a pain,let's replace it! Types and qualities of shellac vary but it was used by US government as ingredient in wooden boat hull coatings through WW2. Things like mine sweepers that had to be wood. Quality fresh shellac applied to furniture handles water pretty well, and shellac is easily removed when neccesary; so the furniture doesn't have to be discarded. I'd say it is durable and makes the furniture durable.

Yep, and I called that out pretty clearly in comment #18. If you're willing to do regular maintenance then IMO shellac and nitrocellulose lacquer are hard to beat for fine furniture.

With that said, the context of this thread isn't fine furniture. It's kitchen cabinetry, and in that application water is the least of your worries with shellac. The fact that alcohol and ammonia dissolve it is much more problematic than for, say, a table. I don't know about you, but I would consider it to be undesirable if the finish on my kitchen cabinets dissolved because somebody knocked over a bottle of vodka or picked the wrong cleaner.

Also, the immediate subject of the last few exchanges about durability was Minwax Polycrylic, which is a water-based reactive finish and itself not all that easy to remove. If the application forces me to choose a reactive finish then I'd rather choose a one that won't *need* to be removed for a long time. Non-durable reactive finishes are just about the worst of all worlds IMO.

[Stewie Simpson]

The dewaxed allows you to topcoat it with your choice....Adhesion is the issue with non dewaxed..

Jerry you raise a valid point. My own preference to only use dewaxed shellac. If the last coat of shellac has been applied outside of 24hr time frame, then a light abrasion is recommended to maximise adhesion before the next coat is applied. The same scenario would apply if using something other than shellac for your next coat.

[James Pallas]

Well this runs the course. Derek can use a readily available finish, not necessarily minwax. Or buy tens of thousands of dollars of spray equipment, booths and lighting etc. for his cabinets. Spray them with finishes that are certified by an organization that is run by manufacturers of kitchen cabinets. The ones that put their sticker on particle board cabinets with vinyl sheet faces and latex painted backs. It's all covered. He just wanted a brush or wipe applied finish, I believe, that would stay fairly clear.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

For furniture, my favourite finishes are dewaxed shellac (Ubeaut white shellac), waxed shellac (amber, made from flakes), and Livos Universal Wood Oil (also imparts a slight amber tint). None of these is suitable for kitchen cabinet doors. Neither durable nor an enduring clear/white for Hard Maple.

The one rule of thumb I have learned so far is that only a water-based acrylic finish remains clear and does not go yellow. Anything that is oil-based immediately adds a yellow tinge. So I am after a water-based finish.

To repeat, the finish must not require spray equipment or be hazardous.

The one recommended that leads the line up is Minwax Polycrylic. This is available in Oz. Perhaps not the most durable, but significantly more so than dewaxed shellac.

Apparently better (more durable) are Hydrocote Resisthane Plus, and General Finish Enduro, but neither of which I can find locally.

Anything else along these lines?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Derek-
Take this question to the Finishing Forum. You can also PM John Ten Eyk, Scott Holmes, and Jim Becker. They'll have good advice for you w/r/t alternatives to Minwax Polycrylic.

Can you get General Finishes Enduro Clear Poly or Target Coatings products where you are? These can be brushed and are water white.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

General Finishes Enduro Clear Poly and Target Coatings products are not available in Oz. I am not sure if there are equivalents. Still searching.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

Well this runs the course. Derek can use a readily available finish, not necessarily minwax. Or buy tens of thousands of dollars of spray equipment, booths and lighting etc. for his cabinets.

More like hundreds for something like an Earlex. Even the higher-end HVLP rig I have (a Fuji Q5) is only about $1.5K. You can improvise the booth and lighting quite cheaply. If you spray solvents then you need an explosion-proof fan for your improvised booth, but even that doesn't cost much from industrial supply houses.

[Dave Cav]

Regarding the Minwax Polycrylic, that's all I let my students use when I was teaching high school woodshop. I got rid of all of the solvent based finishes due to the mess, safety problems, and so on. I bought it by the gallon (also the Minwax WB stain) and poured it into plastic jugs for ease of handling, and then into little 8 ounce plastic containers for the students to use. We used it on everything from little boxes to tables, pretty much everything. It was easy to apply- I saw kids slopping it on with paper towels, brushes, their fingers.....it cures in about 24 hours and then you can sand or rub out with steel wool pretty easily. It's a lot more durable than shellac, and doesn't change the color of the wood.

The only problem with it is that since it's water based, the first coat will raise the grain and need to be lightly sanded, unless you raise the grain with water and sand before application.

[Prashun Patel]

Jim,

That's overstating it. Yes, Derek is set on NOT spraying. However, it doesn't cost 'tens of thousands of dollars' to spray hvlp; nor does it require an expensive booth set up. Waterbased spraying has become cheap and easy to safely perform. I've been spraying wb for a couple years in my garage with nothing but a box fan and an organic half mask respirator, and a Rockler HVLP. My total outlay was under $200, and that includes the cost of the soap box I bought to now stand on and preach the gospel about hvlp ;)

Derek has more experience than I in most matters wood, but I just wanted to be sure that any desire to avoid HVLP is based on knowledge of current technology, not where things might have been even a couple years ago.

[James Pallas]

Prashun, I would agree that spraying non flamable liquids is not nearly as dangerous. However there was suggestions about flamable finishes. Non flamable also does not mean non toxic or not harmful. We spend a lot of time talking about the dangers of wood dust and such but not much about chemicals used by woodworkers. A spray set up for flamable liquids is very different than water. Light fixtures, switches, electric motors, relays, static sparks etc. Where does the exhaust go, in your neighbors window, to your children's playground, your pets house? There is a lot more to it than a twenty dollar window fan and some cardboard boxes. I've spayed plenty including all kinds of finishes. I was taught that no mater what is sprayed it's in the air until it settles out or is taken out and where it settles makes a difference. There is still lead along most of the nations highways from car and truck exhaust. Same lead as in lead based paint.
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

Prashun, I would agree that spraying non flamable liquids is not nearly as dangerous. However there was suggestions about flamable finishes. Non flamable also does not mean non toxic or not harmful. We spend a lot of time talking about the dangers of wood dust and such but not much about chemicals used by woodworkers.

I don't know who "we" is here, because most woodworkers I know are acutely aware of finish toxicity. Many finishes are almost as toxic and mobile when you sand them as when you spray them, so avoiding spraying is no panacea. I wear a full-face respirator whenever I finish with anything more volatile than BLO or shellac (and sometimes even with the latter).

Perhaps by "we" you actually mean that *you* have less-than-comprehensive knowledge of woodworking hazards and mitigations?


A spray set up for flamable liquids is very different than water. Light fixtures, switches, electric motors, relays, static sparks etc.

A spray setup for flammables is indeed different, but it's not quite as dramatic as you make it out. The solvent concentrations involved present a combustion risk in the immediate area of the booth and particularly its exhaust. You therefore need to be careful about the fan and any task lighting.



Where does the exhaust go, in your neighbors window, to your children's playground, your pets house?

Depends on the finish. Most solvent-based finishes dry out VERY quickly, such that all that is left is the vaporized solvent and the "dry spray". In addition, the filtration in a properly designed exhaust setup captures wet finish. It won't coat anything outside of the booth's immediate exhaust. There are a range of opinions about the aggregate and long-term hazards of the vaporized solvents themselves, though in any case finishes have gotten MUCH better in that respect due to SCAQMD's influence.



There is a lot more to it than a twenty dollar window fan and some cardboard boxes.

There are a HUGE range of options between "a twenty dollar window fan and some cardboard boxes" and "tens of thousands of dollars", which are the two alternatives you've presented. Nobody in their right mind uses either for hobbyist-quantity work. For example I specifically mentioned the availability of relatively inexpensive explosion-proof fans from industrial supply houses.

We can return to this if/when you're ready to have a reality-based discussion instead of dealing exclusively in hysteria and false dichotomies.

[James Pallas]

Patrick, Spent most of my career as a building code official. I'm very familiar with the requirements for spray booths and equipment. Someone wishes to risk they can do it. There are however rules in building codes, life safety codes and fire codes about these issues for a reason. If you have a different ideas that are better I suggest you get the codes changed so everyone can set up a spray booth for flamable spraying at a residence or in a residential neighborhood. No hysteria here.
Jim

[Stewie Simpson]

Ease up you 2 guys; remember the OP is not wanting the services of a spray booth.

[Derek Cohen]

I took the plunge - probably pretty safe (albeit it pricey!) - to use General Finishes QTHS High Performance Water Based Topcoat. Via Amazon as it is not available in Oz, and I cannot find something similar.


I was alerted me to a review done by FWW in 2006. This, along with recommendations from a few others, really supported its choice as the top finish that was clear (non-yellowing), non plastic finish, maximum protection, able to be applied with a foam brush, and quick drying for re-coating.


Thanks all.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Patrick Chase]

I took the plunge - probably pretty safe (albeit it pricey!) - to use General Finishes QTHS High Performance Water Based Topcoat. Via Amazon as it is not available in Oz, and I cannot find something similar.


I was alerted me to a review done by FWW in 2006. This, along with recommendations from a few others, really supported its choice as the top finish that was clear (non-yellowing), non plastic finish, maximum protection, able to be applied with a foam brush, and quick drying for re-coating.

Yep, IIRC their top 2 were that General finish and the Hydrocote one I suggested, though I'd forgotten about that article when I wrote my earlier posts. Minwax Polycrylic didn't fare so well.

EDIT: I just went back and looked at that article, and remembered why I didn't recommend the General finish: They scored the color as "light yellow" vs "clear" for Hydrocote Resisthane and Minwax Polycrylic. I've never used that General finish, though, and the difference may be trivial.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Patrick

I'm a bit puzzled by the comment of "light yellow" as the other reports say white. The fact sheet states ..

Colors: Water White (dries clear).

Edit to add video: Here is a video of the finish going onto a light wood - do not do as the presenter does and shake the can. To avoid bubbles, stirr the contents instead ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zbZ1cXNyZk

A comment made in this video was that the initial colour appear to be slightly yellow as it dries, but once dry it is clear and colourless. There are examples of several woods without finish, with water-based finish, and with oil-based finish. The water-based finishes all had the same tone as the bare wood.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

You may find Chris' notes on finishing to be of interest;

http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.com/2014/11/a-square-deal-36.html

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Brian.

Chris confirms that water-based finishes are more stable than oil-based finishes, which is what I have been reading. He used a slightly different finish, but which seems to ave similar properties in application.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

From my perspective, the Minwax Polycrylic worked pretty nicely on BORG pine cabinet that had been stained with a Minwax color (Fruitwood I believe). I liked the easy cleanup, the easy spread with a foam applicator, the minimal layer thickness and easy to build with multiple application cycles. I also felt that the base color was not affected significantly. It stayed very true to original color without yellowing. I can't comment on ultimate durability however. I think if your cabinets have door handles though, that durability shouldn't be a big issue. I think the finished / cured surface was smooth (non porous) and should clean up easily with soap and water.

[Jerry Olexa]

One further thought on shellac...I love using it: no brush lines, easy repair, easy blend, you choose degree of lustre by your padding, etc...I always make my own from flakes, always non waxed and always pad it on...The finish is exceptional in my view and easily be topcoated or waxed. The next step above my regimen is french polish,,,

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Patrick

I'm a bit puzzled by the comment of "light yellow" as the other reports say white. The fact sheet states ..

Colors: Water White (dries clear).

After my stint as a mechanical engineer I did image-processing and color for a while, and one of the first things you learn is that there's no such thing as "clear" in the real world. All finishes have some color to them

I just looked at the article again and noticed the reviewer used a spectrophotometer, which is a much more sensitive instrument than the human eye. I have one at home, but wouldn't use it to determine finish suitability for exactly that reason. It's terrific for *matching* finishes though since you can measure a single coat and accurately determine whether you'll be able to match your reference color and what thickness you'll need to get there.

It appears that he may have set his threshold between "clear" and "light yellow" impractically tight. That's frankly a common mistake made by people who have a fancy spectrophotometer but lack deeper understanding of color and human perception thereof.

[Joshua Hancock]

I wouldnt use Zissner straight out of the can, it is a 3 lb cut and is very difficult to control. I usually cut it with an equal amount of denatured alchohol and then apply at least 3 coats. For a top coat, since it is waxed shellac, I have found that paste wax works very very well. I made a "temporary" transition between the living room and kitchen that still looks great the despite the best efforts of 4 children and 2 dogs over the course of 2 years. If I need to acentuqte the grain, I firat put downa wash coat of boiled linseed oil qnd then apply the shellac and wax. Keep in mind that shellac is not qlchohol resistant and wax does not resist heat well at all. And you find both in abundance in a kitchen.

While a friend of mine and I were building his kitchen, a local cabinet maker around here advised us to use a water based crystal clear floor finish ( varathane I think) . Since we were working in red oak we applied a base of Minwax sanding sealer, and then topcoated it with the floor finish. We were able to spray it using the cheapy harbor freight purple gun( though I do believe you can wipe on/brush both of them), and water based isnt as sensitive to temperature and humidity. The results were a lovely, durable finish that is easy to clean with grain accentuation.

Just my 2 cents.

[Prashun Patel]

This apples to Zinsser Bullseye not Zinsser Sealcoat.

[Joshua Hancock]

Thanks for pointing that distinction out Prashun. IIRC, Sealcoat is a 2lb cut straight from the can, and therefore pretty controllable.