Caution! Just because Norm & Company use it does not mean its the cat's meow!

[Dev Emch]

The other day, I was sniffing about for a new bandsaw. Actually, an older bandsaw from about 1960. A DoAll with flood coolant and hyradaulic table feed. Its a metal cutting thing for my hand plane business. None of the new saws even come close to this old 16 to 18 inch dino metal muncher.

So I found myself talking to one of the main dudes at Dake Johnson. They sell these red and white metal cutting band saws among other things. So we got onto the topic of Old Man Tutel from Orange Country Choppers and I made the remark that he got the red and white Dake Johnson for free so that you guys can get the air time.

WRONG-OLLA! They were going to get the saw for free because it was the only 16 incher left and it was a discontinued model. But the Discovery Channel has a business exposure dude who collects money from all the companies that get exposure. So if you wish to hang your poster or flag in the orange country shop, you have to pay through the nose to do it! When Miller hangs up a welding poster that is huge, blue & white, and gaudy as heck, they have to write a nice check to the Discovery Channel.

So Dake was going to give this 16 inch Dake Johnson to OCC for free but then they found out that if they did, they would have to pay exposure charges to the Discovery channel which they do not have a budget for. So in the end, old man tutel just bought the saw outright from his own coin.

So in general, any company who gets their tools onto a show with a popular host will most likely have to pay through the nose to get the chance. So when I see Tom Silva using all those green and black tools, well then, I need to wonder how much Festool is having to fork over to the DIY channel for the opportunity. Maybe Tom Silva has bought all these tools outright from his own coin in which case, Festool may be off the hook. But that is the problem with some of these shows. All this product placement is really confusing things.

[Mike Cutler]

Dev.

That doesn't surprise me at all.
I've never owned a TV, so I've never seen Norm's show, or that DIY show that you referenced, but TV is big bucks and everything is an advertisement. The same thing holds true for movies also.
It's going to make you cry, but I happen to know the location of the bandsaw that you are looking for. One is currently rusting away, along with an 14" Rockwell Mill/Drill in one of our buildings at work. We have no "surplus policy" so I can't even buy it from them, I wouldn't be able to move it anyway. There is also an early 60's vintage Unisaw. It was replaced with a new contractor style saw because the parts were unavailable, or too expensive. What a waste.

[skip gleichman]

Ahh, That is why every product and newer machine or power tool that David Marks uses on his show is in disguise. I guess that allows him to use tools without being a "sponsor". In many ways it is more honest because Marks can use what he wants to use and not be forced to use (and promote) a sub-par tool just because it is a sponsor of the show. It is rare these days for a show like this to not promote products and he often will suggest buying used equipment.

[Tom Hintz]

"Maybe Tom Silva has bought all these tools outright from his own coin in which case, Festool may be off the hook."

Silva does personal appearances for Festool which makes me believe they are paying up.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Ahh, That is why every product and newer machine or power tool that David Marks uses on his show is in disguise. I guess that allows him to use tools without being a "sponsor". In many ways it is more honest because Marks can use what he wants to use and not be forced to use (and promote) a sub-par tool just because it is a sponsor of the show. It is rare these days for a show like this to not promote products and he often will suggest buying used equipment.

Skip, I do like to see that about David Marks, he doesn't seem to ever promote a tool he is using!!!

[James Ayars]

Several times I've seen the tools on TOH or Ask TOH have black tape over the brand name.

On American Chopper, they used a lot of Craftsman stuff in the early episodes. After they got their deal with SnapOn, all the Craftsman tool chests had black tape put over the Craftsman name. They've since made a deal with NAPA so SnapOn is gone and all the tool chests are blue NAPA boxes.
James

[Jim Becker]

Tom Silva buys his Festool equipment...I know that for a fact 'cause I also know the fellow who sells to him. ;) In the NYW, Norm uses a combination of owned tools and sponsor-provided tools. The Unisaw, for example, is owned by Russ Morash, the show's producer and the actual owner of the NYW facility. Honestly, I don't have a problem with sponsor-provided tools on these shows, especially those on PBS. Their support is substantive towards making those shows actually available to us, just as our own contributions help with programming.

James, the black tape is quite common on many of the shows to avoid conflicts with primary sponsors without limiting "what" the woodworker(s) on the show can use. In Norm's case, he uses both PC nail guns as well as some others, such as a few Accusets (Senco, but discontinued). On some of the Scripps network shows (HGTV, DIY), such as "Fix It Up", they cover ALL logos on the tools, although it's not hard to see what they are using. (I almost hate that show, BTW...they say so many stupid things that are misleading or just plain wrong...)

[Bob Marino]

I can't really speak too much about how manufacturers support or sponsor shows, but I can speak with some, not total, familiarity regarding Festool and Tom Silva/TOS.
A few years back, I had contacted one of the Siva brothers regarding Festool. At that time, they had never heard of Festool. It took many calls and conversations to get to do a demo for these guys - they are very, very busy. They also get tools "thrown" at them all the time by the manufacturers. More importantly, they are not guys interested in "getting new tools" for the heck of it, not "wowed" by things that won't increase their efficency - like most pros, time is money.
You may get one chance to show them how these tools differ from what they are currently using - just one chance. If it does not "wow" them, if it doesn't offer them efffiences other tools do not, if it doesn't just plain work better than what they are using, THEY WON'T TOUCH EM' - you are gone, perhaps with a "thanks for your time, don't call us, we'll call you" reply. I had that chance and the pleasure (along with my RSM'S) - two times.
I will step out of my fairly laid back position posting about Festool here and say they were "wowed" by the tools, not by offers, not by my personality,:eek: pure and simple by the tools. The tools spoke for themselves - I didn't have to!

Bob

[Kevin Murdock]

Well, except for the multi-router, which he sells on his website.

Seems that no one is totally off the hook :)

/Kevin



Skip, I do like to see that about David Marks, he doesn't seem to ever promote a tool he is using!!!

[Brad Tallis]

Ya, I always laugh when they use black tape to cover the brand name on a tool, when it is obviously a yellow dewalt or something like that.

One of our friends was a security officer on Air Force One, so we got to get a tour of AF1. I had to laugh because every "bought" product on the plane had their logo removed. However, you could tell it was an HP laserjet printer, or a Sony TV. I asked why they do that and they said it is so HP, Sony, Etc can't say "Well, Air Force One uses OUR product and not yours..."

So, I'm assuming that's also why they black out the product names on these shows (along with having to pay up the nose for product placement).

Brad

[Tom Jones III]

I don't know anything about sponsorship in WW (I don't have a TV so I've never seen Norm or any other program), but I am a little familiar with sponsors in professional triathlon (like Ironman Hawaii that you see on ESPN once a year). In both triathlon and pro cycling often athletes or teams will be sponsored by a specific bike manufacturer. Sometimes the athlete simply likes another bike better, so they repaint their old bike to look like their new sponsor, complete with decals. It would be like painting your powermatic silver and putting craftsman stickers on it. Athletes will even put different food and drink into their sponsors packaging so they can continue to use their favorite fuel and still show their sponsors logo.

The moral of the story is, when there is a lot of money involved be very sceptical.

[Jim Becker]

Interesting, Brad...to the best of my knowledge, the stuff my employer has in the White House, Senate and House, the Pentagon and elsewhere, still has logos on it, but I don't normally work in that sector. I wonder if a company could charge more to sell sans-logo... ;)

[Lee DeRaud]

So when I see Tom Silva using all those green and black tools, well then, I need to wonder how much Festool is having to fork over to the DIY channel for the opportunity.My guess? $0.00.

'American Chopper' is actually produced for Discovery Channel, while TOH and its spinoffs are for PBS (by/for WGBH, unless Morash changed the arrangement recently). I don't see any way Discovery/DIY/whoever could get away with charging companies because their products are used on a show originally produced for another network, especially PBS.

[Lee DeRaud]

Athletes will even put different food and drink into their sponsors packaging so they can continue to use their favorite fuel and still show their sponsors logo.Heh. A couple decades back, Jack Nicklaus was having a very bad day at one of the major tounaments (the PGA, I think). One reporter made a crack to the effect that, "No wonder he's playing badly, that's the fourth beer he's had this round." Turns out Coke had the concession at the tournament and Jack had to drink it out of beer cups because he was getting money from Pepsi.:D :cool:

[jay hanks]

I think most everything in Davis Mark's shop is old iron that he bought as he needed it. Except the Multi router, which he got at an estate sale.

[Jim Becker]

Lee, TOH (http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/) is now produced by Time Warner (Time4 Media), but Morash is still "chief in charge". This change happened approximately two years ago, give or take.

[Wes Bischel]

Lee, TOH (http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/) is now produced by Time Warner (Time4 Media), but Morash is still "chief in charge". This change happened approximately two years ago, give or take.

I didn't know that - we'll I'll be a __________ (I'll let you guys fill in the blank - hey :eek: - be nice :rolleyes: ) I always thought WGBH owned the show - live and learn.

Wes - who seems to miss all the TOH and NYW shows, but somehow seems to find Lawrence Welk on our PBS station. :o

[Dennis McDonaugh]

....but somehow seems to find Lawrence Welk on our PBS station. :o

Wes, it seems like he's on more now than when he was alive...or, at least it seems that way here in San Antonio.

[Dev Emch]

Get away with charging for exposure?...... ABSOLUTELY! Its called "Product Placement Endorsements" and they have full time folks who manage this stuff.

There are ways to get around this by buying the tools yourself and possibly taping up the nameplates. What attracted me to David Marks was not his skills. It was the fact that this host was using a 1940s/1950s Walker Turner Drill Press and a 1950s American wedge bed 16 in patternshop jointer.

Dont get me wrong, the tool business is hard and you need the exposure. But the overall exposure picture does not always paint an objective picture. For example, how many Lie Nielsen planes have you guys seen on TV lately?

Also for the record, I have evaluated Festool and come to the conclusion that they will gradually replace all my older porter cable stuff as it wears out.

But also keep this in mind. Yesterday, there was a new program on TV. Some lady was building modern, quick, easy high quality furniture. Folks, that is an oxymoron. Quick and easy and high quality do not fit in the same sentence when it comes to making really nice furniture. And some of you who are amatures know this. You also make some very nice items... often way better than what is found in stores.

But I did learn a new term from this program.:D Did you guys know that "TO CUT PROUD" means to cut the item a bit oversize? WOOOOOOOOW I COULD HAVE A V-8! So many of these sponsored shows are also dumbing down the content. Yes, I can understand why and actually tolerate it for the sake of newbies coming onboard. Besides, I would much rather watch an attractive host wearing safty googles than all that nasty negative news content lately.

What we really need is a new show. A show shot in a killer shop like Lou's with pristine industrial rejects. Call it Lou's Corner or Barn Time with Dev. Something needs to change here because we can only tolerate so many plywood bookselves.

[Jim Becker]

Dev, David has a nice mixture of machines in his shop...some old like you cite; some new. In the latter catagory...a 36" MiniMax MM36 bandsaw that arrived in his shop in the last year. I believe he has two other bandsaws; one is an older model, but I don't think it is quite as old as some of the gear you love. He has multiple jointers, too...the big old one you mentioned and a small, late model 6" or 8".

[Dev Emch]

Well, I have stuff from all over the time warp. Most of my woodworking machines are from the late 1960s and my martin is from the mid 1970s. The really old stuff is more for show than hard use. But my snowflakes are both from the late 1930s and they **DO** have ball bearings. The most important machine I have is my shaper and it was new in about 2003 to 2004 however.

David Marks also has/had a 20 inch American bandsaw. That was the larger one. He has also had at one time an oliver lathe but seems to favor one of those OneWay lathes these days. His oliver was a wood lathe and not a patternmaker lathe so I can understand why he may like the OneWay better.

My position is this. I believe one should gather tools based on performance and price value. If that means buying new, so be it. But many times, the better machine is actually an older, discontinued machine. In which case, you have to find it and possibly rebuild it. I think the worst thing you can do is have a shop loaded with machines from the same time period and the same maker. It looks like you have been hired as a marketing rep for that maker and you loose your own individualality in the noise.

Right now, I am looking for a Brown & Sharpe #2 Vertical (LIGHT) Milling machine from about the 1930s to the 1950s. They were virtually unchanged in this time frame. Its an older design by a company who no longer exists. But serves a function that I cannot replace without having to spend a MASSIVE amount of money to get. For what I need it for, the $600 to $2500 or so dollars for this machine is worth it. Dropping $150,000 on a new Gene Hass milling center is not going to make the business case. This is an example of what I am preaching about.:D

[Keith Christopher]

Those sponsor placed items are everywhere, sometimes even stated not shown. See an actor in a movie drinking a coke, or perhaps the bottle of Trinity water that was covering the trunk release in the movie "The whole Ten Yards" for example. Why not tool shows.


But it is funny that norm has stuff most of us will NEVER buy. That big stinking widebelt sander for example. nice but not in my shop.

[Lee DeRaud]

Wes, it seems like he's on more now than when he was alive...or, at least it seems that way here in San Antonio.Well, it's not like he's the only musician for whom dying was a "good career move".:eek:

[Vaughn McMillan]

Regarding black tape over logos...years ago a friend's band made it through the prelims and onto the Star Search TV show. Throughout the various auditions, they used their own instruments, but when they taped the show, they were strongly urged to use Yamaha instruments, since they were a big sponsor. I don't know the details, but in the end they used the Yamaha instruments provided by the show, and they were not happy with the results. To a certain extent they felt robbed, since their performance wasn't up to its usual level. Although Yamaha makes fine instruments, switching axes right before a performance would be like a race car driver hopping in a completely different ride right before the race.

At other times, I recall seeing performers on Star Search with black tape over the logos on their (obviously non-Yamaha) instruments. I'm guessing they didn't cave in to the pressure from the producers the way my friend's band did.

- Vaughn

[Richard Wolf]

Well, I have stuff from all over the time warp. Most of my woodworking machines are from the late 1960s and my martin is from the mid 1970s. The really old stuff is more for show than hard use. But my snowflakes are both from the late 1930s and they **DO** have ball bearings. The most important machine I have is my shaper and it was new in about 2003 to 2004 however.



Sure would love to see pictures of those machines. I guess I missed the shop tour pics!!

Richard

[lou sansone]

Sure would love to see pictures of those machines. I guess I missed the shop tour pics!!

Richard

nope all we got so far from dev has been that dinky spindle sander:rolleyes: :rolleyes: and some massive 3 phase load centers. We know he has more but maybe he is out of film;)

lou

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Well, it's not like he's the only musician for whom dying was a "good career move".:eek:

Yeah but Lee, isn't that a tough way to make a living? :D

[Frank Hagan]

So in general, any company who gets their tools onto a show with a popular host will most likely have to pay through the nose to get the chance. So when I see Tom Silva using all those green and black tools, well then, I need to wonder how much Festool is having to fork over to the DIY channel for the opportunity. Maybe Tom Silva has bought all these tools outright from his own coin in which case, Festool may be off the hook. But that is the problem with some of these shows. All this product placement is really confusing things.

Sure, "product placement" is done pretty frequently. I did notice that David Marks rarely shows the logo on his tools, and except for the MultiRouter (which he also sells on his website), almost never mentions a brand name. Kind of refreshing!