Lie Neilsen versus Veritas Bench Chisels [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Mike Holbrook

11-25-2016, 8:17 AM

You might try Derek Cohen's site http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/index.html. Derek offers testing, particularly of Veritas tools. He did an interesting comparison of chisel steels. You may also find information on handles for chisels.

If you plan to spend the amount of money these two vendors charge you might also consider Japanese chisels, which are very popular with many on this forum. You can get very nice Japanese chisels for similar costs. You will find a much greater wealth of chisel sizes, shapes, weights...in Japan. You might search for posts by Stanley Covington on these pages. Stanley lives in Japan and has written a good deal about Japanese tools here. Japanese chisels are often struck with a gennou, special Japanese hammer.

You will also find there are quite a few posters here who swear by the older chisels they find at auctions and flea markets. There are also a good many fans of the new Stanley chisels or Nerex chisels which will save you some money on new chisels.

Glen Canaday

11-25-2016, 8:29 AM

And then there are those of us who bought the only set of cheap Stanleys hanging in the store and still use them 20 years later...

Derek Cohen

11-25-2016, 8:36 AM

Hello All,
Time to upgrade my bench chisels... wondering what folks think of the Lie Nielsen chisels as compared to the Veritas/Lee Valley bench chisels...
Thanks for the advice,
Israel Charo

the best I can do is compare photos ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview_html_m819b234.jpg

I have only reviewed the O1 version of the Veritas chisels: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview.html

This should give you an idea of the ergonomics. I do own the PM-V11 versions, and the steel is excellent - a lot better than A2, which is what the LN chisels have. However, there is more to a chisel than the steel. You need to hold them hold in your hand.

Comparing chisel steel: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Prashun Patel

11-25-2016, 8:55 AM

I have a few ln chisels and the handle is a little on the small side. Not good or bad just something to beware of.

lowell holmes

11-25-2016, 9:28 AM

I agree with Kurt, buy one of each and you will know which you prefer.

I have Lie Nielsen chisels and love them. Lee Valley did not offer their chisels at that time.

Jim Koepke

11-25-2016, 11:32 AM

Hello All,
Time to upgrade my bench chisels... wondering what folks think of the Lie Nielsen chisels as compared to the Veritas/Lee Valley bench chisels...
Thanks for the advice,
Israel Charo

Howdy Izzy and welcome to the Cave by the Creek.

For me time to upgrade a chisel usually means making a new handle or a sharpening and shine.

If you are in the Pacific Northwest you would be welcome to come by and give my chisels a try. Though none of them are of the Veritas or Lie-Nielsen variety. Most of mine are Buck Brothers and Witherby's with a few other odd balls tossed in.

As stated above if you can handle the chisels before purchase, the feel of the tool in hand makes a lot of difference in the user experience. That is my main reason for having mostly socket chisels. It is easy to fit them with new/custom handles.

This is a general shape which feels comfortable for me:

348222

The ball shape at the top is good for pushing with the palm. The ring around the bottom also helps since for pushing. The ring also fits between a couple of fingers for times when a bit of light mallet assistance is desired. These are not for use with heavy mallet blows.

jtk

Patrick Chase

11-25-2016, 11:48 AM

Hello All,
Time to upgrade my bench chisels... wondering what folks think of the Lie Nielsen chisels as compared to the Veritas/Lee Valley bench chisels...
Thanks for the advice,
Israel Charo

I use mostly Veritas chisels, in PM-V11.

One thing to consider is handle customization. The L-Ns are conventional 750-style socket chisels, which means you can easily remove and replace the handles if you want something different. The Veritas chisels have a fairly unique socket+tang setup that's much less conducive to customization. On the plus side the Veritas handles don't come off as easily (or at all) in use.

w.r.t. steel I really don't like A2 for chisels. It requires fairly high edge angles to avoid chipping, and IMO that's basically the opposite of what you want from a bench chisel's steel. Veritas apparently agrees, as they offer all of their plane irons in A2, but the only chisels they offer in A2 are the new mortise chisels (which always use a high edge angle anyway).

Mike Henderson

11-25-2016, 12:34 PM

I found the LN chisel handles to be too small. Also, the LV steel is better (PM-V11). But a lot depends on how they fit your hand. I made new handles for my LN chisels.

Older plain carbon steel chisels are good but may require more frequent sharpening.

Mike

david charlesworth

11-25-2016, 1:39 PM

In UK we have a good traditional chisel by Ashley Iles, about £ 20-25.

L-N very nice at close to £50.

Veritas around £85.

David

Patrick Chase

11-25-2016, 1:55 PM

In UK we have a good traditional chisel by Ashley Iles, about £ 20-25.

L-N very nice at close to £50.

Veritas around £85.

David

Here in the states the AIs are about $30, the L-Ns are about $70, and the Veritas are about $80.

A quick look reveals that the Veritas PM-V11 chisels are more like 60-70 ukp (http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-pm-v11-bench-chisels-ax887049) ex vat though, so that's roughly in line with US pricing and also fairly close to the L-Ns (http://www.axminster.co.uk/lie-nielsen-bevel-edge-socket-chisels-ax460348).

Andy Nichols

11-25-2016, 2:32 PM

Need to add the IBC chisels, even though they are A2 , have no issues getting them as sharp as my favorite old Greenlee classic thin chisels or my Sawns....

Really like the screw apart handles, just finished turning some new ones, not hard but have to pay attention to the original specifications.

Believe David did a write up on these when they first came out, never paid much attention to them until I did the hand tool class with Rob, and have been using them every day since....

They are worth considering, along with the others that have been mentioned.

Regards,
Andy
-- mos maiorum

Graham Haydon

11-25-2016, 2:49 PM

I'm glad David mentioned the Ashely Iles, I would choose them over the LN & LV.

Glenn de Souza

11-25-2016, 6:08 PM

Here's another vote for Ashley Iles chisels. I recently upgraded to them from my good old 20+ year old Marples Blues (Sheffield), and there is no comparison. The MK II bench chisel is excellent, and if you do hand dovetailing, you might like the shorter American Pattern butt chisel. Their O1 steel take a very fine edge, and holds it durably.

Agree with the comment that tools like chisels are highly personal. There are definitely technical pros and cons among the various chisel makers but I'd say the final verdict is the one that feels right in your hands.

I ordered a set of LV PM-V11 chisels and no doubt, they are excellent tools, but just didn't feel right for me so they went back.

Steve Kang

11-25-2016, 6:19 PM

I use mostly Veritas chisels, in PM-V11.

One thing to consider is handle customization. The L-Ns are conventional 750-style socket chisels, which means you can easily remove and replace the handles if you want something different. The Veritas chisels have a fairly unique socket+tang setup that's much less conducive to customization. On the plus side the Veritas handles don't come off as easily (or at all) in use.

w.r.t. steel I really don't like A2 for chisels. It requires fairly high edge angles to avoid chipping, and IMO that's basically the opposite of what you want from a bench chisel's steel. Veritas apparently agrees, as they offer all of their plane irons in A2, but the only chisels they offer in A2 are the new mortise chisels (which always use a high edge angle anyway).

You bring up a really great point, one which I wish I had considered when buying my PMV-11 chisels. The handle on my 1" chisel has started to degrade with relatively minimum use, though perhaps it's due to poor technique and mallet choice on my part. Things may be different if I were using a urethane mallet rather than brass and if my strikes were more centered. Lee Valley has replacement handles which can be special ordered (at $10.50 a piece + shipping), though I'm not looking forward to the hassle of sawing off the old handles and cleaning off any epoxy.

348247

Patrick Chase

11-25-2016, 6:25 PM

David Dalzell

11-25-2016, 11:17 PM

I have both LN and Veritas chisels. The LN are more comfortable for my hand. The veritas edges seems to last longer. However the difference in both ege retention and comfort is minor. I use both equally. Either will be a great set.

Malcolm Schweizer

11-26-2016, 2:22 AM

You bring up a really great point, one which I wish I had considered when buying my PMV-11 chisels. The handle on my 1" chisel has started to degrade with relatively minimum use, though perhaps it's due to poor technique and mallet choice on my part. Things may be different if I were using a urethane mallet rather than brass and if my strikes were more centered. Lee Valley has replacement handles which can be special ordered (at $10.50 a piece + shipping), though I'm not looking forward to the hassle of sawing off the old handles and cleaning off any epoxy.

348247

I dented my Veritas butt chisel the first use with mild taps from a hornbeam mallet while marking saw cut lines for tenons. I'm a bit disappointed with that- not because I didn't expect them to get dented, but because I wasn't using a whole lot of force at the time. That said, after those first few dents the handles held up fine. I guess the wood compresses and becomes harder. I do love the design and feel of the Veritas chisels, and love the widths of the butt chisels. The fixed handles add a bit of security, but I would sure hate to replace one.

I have beat the heck out of my LN chisels and they still look like new after years of use. I chose LN before Veritas had chisels of their own. I chose them over Ashley Iles, Two Cherries, and others because of the removable handles and the fact that they offer a long handle for paring, which I love. https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4101/chisel-handles I also appreciate the fine beveled edge. What I don't like is kind of a catch 22 with the removable handles- great for swapping and replacing handles, but you have to really make sure they are in good. I use a bit of hairspray on the ends to keep them locked in. It works surprisingly well.

After using both, I lean towards the Lie-Nielsens because of the swappable handles and the durability of the hornbeam handles.

Thomas Schneider

11-26-2016, 10:50 AM

I have the Ashely Iles and think they're ok, but I had a few issues. First, I found I had to get past the first 1/16th or so before the edge would stop rolling over. I think this is a common problem with many new chisels. Second, I didn't find the backs of mine to be very flat, and it took quite a bit of work to get them there. And lastly, the ferrules on three of mine split I have no idea how to replace them. That being said, after working with them for a while, the steel holds up well. I just use them for paring and have them set at 25 deg. I also own a set of the new Stanley chisels patterned after the fabled 750's. I found some of the same issues with the new 750's as with the Iles. Backs not flat and edge needed to get past the fist couple of fractions. For the money, I think the Stanley's are a very good value! After getting used to the Stanley chisels, I bought two more 3/8 and ground them to be skewed for tight work. I have no experience with the LN or Varitas chisels. YMMV!

Tom.

Jim Koepke

11-26-2016, 12:12 PM

What I don't like is kind of a catch 22 with the removable handles- great for swapping and replacing handles, but you have to really make sure they are in good. I use a bit of hairspray on the ends to keep them locked in. It works surprisingly well.

To me it is curious this problem doesn't happen often with my older chisels. It does occur with an ill fitting handle. Not having an LN chisel, my theory is only that, a theory. My old chisels are not smooth inside the socket. Many have rough surfaces from oxidation, others from the manufacturing process. My thought is the LN chisels have very smooth surfaces from not only being new but because of the machining leaving a smooth surface inside the socket. A smooth surface will not have as much of a hold as a rough surface in this situation.

Maybe someone with an LN chisel or two can confirm or disprove my theory.

jtk

Patrick Chase

11-26-2016, 12:55 PM

I have the Ashely Iles and think they're ok, but I had a few issues. First, I found I had to get past the first 1/16th or so before the edge would stop rolling over. I think this is a common problem with many new chisels.

It's a common problem with chisels made by people who can't afford vacuum or inert-gas furnaces. It's probably caused by one or both of two things:

Decarburization of the tip. As as been noted many times, carbon tends to migrate out of steel and react with the atmosphere when the metal is heated above the critical temperature, as during hardening. A vacuum or inert-gas furnace will kill that problem dead. There are other ways to mitigate it (for starters you can just grind the decarbed steel off instead of making your customers do it) but fancy furnaces are how the big boys play.
Poorly controlled tempering. If you don't take care to heat the tool uniformly (which is slow) then the tip will tend to get hotter than the rest of the tool. Once again a well-controlled furnace (and time) takes care of the issue.

Either way, it's a sign of amateurish heat-treatment. And we wonder why the modern Sheffield makers have a lingering rap for soft steel.

Malcolm Schweizer

11-26-2016, 4:03 PM

348300

Yup- smooth on the inside. I may take some coarse sandpaper and rough that up a bit.

Jim Koepke

11-26-2016, 5:03 PM

348300

Yup- smooth on the inside. I may take some coarse sandpaper and rough that up a bit.

It may be good to wrap the sandpaper around the cone of the handle and then only turn it to make ridges and valleys for the handle to catch.

jtk

Mike King

11-26-2016, 8:03 PM

Patrick Chase

11-26-2016, 9:08 PM

I have the Veritas PMV-11 bench chisels and they are great -- much better than my Sorby bench chisels. One minor quibble with them is that the side bevel is so sharp that it has cut my hand several times when paring joints. The owner of the local Woodcraft has had the same issue.

Mike

Although it should be obvious, LV helpfully tells you to ease those edges in the instructions (http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504). See the section entitled "Breaking the Side Edges".

I love the fact that the bevel goes all the way to the back, forming a 45 deg corner. In order to do that while maintaining constant and accurate width (and they are very accurate) they almost certainly have to do a fair bit of shaping post-heat-treating, and that costs serious machine time. Most makers just leave the bottom of each side at 90 deg to the back instead.

Stewie Simpson

11-27-2016, 8:47 AM

It's a common problem with chisels made by people who can't afford vacuum or inert-gas furnaces. It's probably caused by one or both of two things:

Decarburization of the tip. As as been noted many times, carbon tends to migrate out of steel and react with the atmosphere when the metal is heated above the critical temperature, as during hardening. A vacuum or inert-gas furnace will kill that problem dead. There are other ways to mitigate it (for starters you can just grind the decarbed steel off instead of making your customers do it) but fancy furnaces are how the big boys play.
Poorly controlled tempering. If you don't take care to heat the tool uniformly (which is slow) then the tip will tend to get hotter than the rest of the tool. Once again a well-controlled furnace (and time) takes care of the issue.

Either way, it's a sign of amateurish heat-treatment. And we wonder why the modern Sheffield makers have a lingering rap for soft steel.

Interesting comments Patrick; I have just finishing mortising out a new sharpening box using a 1950s era WM Maples Boxwood Handled Firmer Chisel on Hard Aust. Jarrah, The cutting edge of chisel showed no signs of undue wear, requiring only a few swipes on the pure chromium oxide loaded strop, to freshen the edge before moving onto the 2nd mortise on the upper box half. The boxwood handles show no signs of mushrooming over those many years of use before I received them, and continue to survive undamaged in my time of use with considerable force with a wooden mallet.

Matthew Hills

11-27-2016, 8:49 AM

My LN chisels are my go-to chisels.
I like that they aren't too top heavy (make it easy to keep on the line when chopping),
I like the fit of the handle in my palm when using by hand,
and I like the side profile for cleanup work (although have to watch for cuts on your off-hand when holding!).

My other chisels:
- Irwin (my first chisels; got a lot of work done, sharpen very easily, but needed very frequent resharpening)
- Ashley Iles (I haven't used much; these felt bulky to me -- long/heavy steel and big handles)
- Koyamaichi 3/6/12/36mm (work well; 3mm is for cleanup; rest mostly get used for chopping; the hoop is annoying for holding in hand)
- Czeck Edge dovetail chisel (nice chisel; but definitely on the compact size)

I'm using Sigma waterstones for sharpening.
Koyamaichi and LN are in a similar bucket for retention/sharpening.

Matt

glenn bradley

11-27-2016, 9:07 AM

Lots of opinions but, unfortunately no matter how good our intentions . . . we cannot tell you how the chisel will feel in your hands. The idea of buying one of each may be your best bet if you are not near any of the shows that come around that would allow you to get one of each in your mitts prior to buying. Get a 3/8" of each, whichever loses the bake-off can be reground to 25* and used as a paring chisel ;-)

I like the handles on the Lee Valley bench chisels. This works out as a double-plus-good thing for me as I have also been a PM-V11 fan since trying my first cutter made from that material. I wish you luck on your search as a chisel that fits the user gives you a more confident approach to the work and just makes things more enjoyable overall.

Mike Henderson

11-27-2016, 11:28 AM

To me it is curious this problem doesn't happen often with my older chisels. It does occur with an ill fitting handle. Not having an LN chisel, my theory is only that, a theory. My old chisels are not smooth inside the socket. Many have rough surfaces from oxidation, others from the manufacturing process. My thought is the LN chisels have very smooth surfaces from not only being new but because of the machining leaving a smooth surface inside the socket. A smooth surface will not have as much of a hold as a rough surface in this situation.

Maybe someone with an LN chisel or two can confirm or disprove my theory.

jtk
That's been my problem with handles on the LN chisels. I made new handles out of cocobolo (which is somewhat oily) and, no matter how hard I drove them into the socket, the handles would come loose in use. While there are less drastic solutions, I epoxied them in. If I ever have to take a handle off, I'll have to cut it off and drill out the socket but I'll trade that off for never having a chisel iron drop off and hit the concrete floor.

And you're right about the difference with old chisels. I have a set of Swan and a set of Witherby socket chisels and made new handles for all of them. The sockets are rough (from the manufacturing process) and the handles stay in.

Mike

[If you ever wanted to make new handles for the LV chisels, you can do it. I made new handles for a set of Japanese chisels and they are attached to the handle in approximately the same way as the LV chisels. The hardest thing is to get the old handles off. After that, making the new handles is similar in complexity to making a handle for a socket chisel.]

lowell holmes

11-27-2016, 11:37 AM

I personally favor the Lie Nielsen chisels. I don't have a full set, but I do have 6 of them.

One tip, if you have problems with the handles coming off, spray the ends of the handles with hair spray and insert them in the chisel.

Patrick Chase

11-27-2016, 12:52 PM

Interesting comments Patrick; I have just finishing mortising out a new sharpening box using a 1950s era WM Maples Boxwood Handled Firmer Chisel on Hard Aust. Jarrah, The cutting edge of chisel showed no signs of undue wear, requiring only a few swipes on the pure chromium oxide loaded strop, to freshen the edge before moving onto the 2nd mortise on the upper box half.

Sure, those chisels have probably seen a lot of grinding and sharpening, which means that any soft surface layer or corner as I described has long since been removed.

In the old days having to grind off the first few mm was par for the course, but now it's possible to do (much) better.

Dave Cav

11-27-2016, 3:37 PM

It will all come down to what feels best in your hand and the kind of work you do. As you can see by my avatar I'm not primarily a Neander, but I build a good bit of furniture with traditional joinery and use hand tools for all of the final fitting. For chopping or mallet work I have two sets of Imperial sized Narex chisels, mortise and butt. For paring and hand work I have a mixed bag of longer socket chisels in the Stanley 720 length. All of the socket chisels are quite vintage and I have gone through them to put a "set" together that covers all the necessary sizes and feels right in my hands. It's really too bad the old Greenlee socket paring chisels are no longer available.