Breaker trpping w/o turning on saw

[Colin Tanner]

Just got my saw back from my neighbor. I wired the motoy back up for 220, plugged it in, and it tripped the breaker. I unplugged the saw flipped the breaker on and there was no issue with the breaker. I unplugged my motor so that there was only electric going to the switch and there was no problem. The breaker only trips when the motor gets plugged in, and the motor isn't even on. I hit the red reset button several times no dice. I checked the wiring twice and it looks right to mr.
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Help!

[Tom Stenzel]

I usually try to stay out of the electrical problems, the norm is just enough info to make things confusing.

In your picture it APPEARS that you have the white wire and the green wire on the same terminal. If the white is one of the phases and the green is ground the breaker will trip.

From the picture it looks like terminals 1 and 5 are at the top of the picture but the diagram have them at the bottom. So I'm not clear on which way is up.

-Tom

[Bill Orbine]

As Mr. Stenzel has pointed out........it appears upside down. Hard to tell. Sometimes you find numbers stamped on or near the tabs.....the picture is too blurry to see but I think I see numbers. As if you connect the wires corresponding to the numbers provided on diagram.

[Jerome Stanek]

For 220 the white is a hot and the green is a ground there is no neutral so the green and white are causing a short

[Michael Dye]

Colin, I agree with Jerome on this one. You have a direct short. The brown lead is buried underneath the white lead. Remove the brown lead and plug it onto the terminal at the top left of the block. Then the white lead takes the place of the previously removed brown lead. Hopefully, problem solved. Cross your fingers and mail me the $100 service fee. Good luck, buddy. Electrical issues can be a bugger.

[Robert Delhommer Sr]

The green & white do seem to be connected together, dead short.

[glenn bradley]

Now's when you wish you took a picture before you rewired it for the neighbor ;-) Other things aside, the green is frame ground and should not be connected to your hot lead.

[Steve Demuth]

Colin,

The problem is with your wiring coming from the power plug. The green lead is the frame ground coming directly from the cord. It should be connected directly to the motor frame, usually by putting it under one of the screws attaching the wiring cover plate - like the one at the very top of your picture. When plugged into a 110 V outlet, the frame ground and the white line lead are both at ground, so the arrangement you have would work fine. With a 220 V outlet, both the white and black line lead are "hot", and having them on connected as you do creates a direct short. The white and black line leads from the cord are both correctly connected.

Note that you also have to replace the plug on the cord with an appropriate 220 V plug properly wired. It will either have one of the two flat blades turned 90 degrees from the orientation found on 110V plugs, or have both of them turned 45 degrees. Google "220V US plug image" to see what I mean.

If by chance you didn't change the plug when the machine went to your neighbor's shop, and your shop doesn't have the kind of plug I describe above, then your shop is probably not actually wired 220.

I believe you have the actual motor wires (red, brown, blue) right for 220V operation.

[Dan Friedrichs]

When plugged into a 110 V outlet, the frame ground and the white line lead are both at ground, so the arrangement you have would work fine.

It would work, but it would be wrong and unsafe. Ground and neutral must be separated, and only bonded at the main panel.

[Steve Demuth]

Dan,

Totally agree. Should not have used the words "work fine" and no one should wire a motor that way. The evidence suggests though that that is how the borrower had it wired. Colin clearly didn't decide to put the green wire on that terminal, as he's just trying to follow the motor wiring instructions, which obviously don't say anything about where you put the frame ground.

[Colin Tanner]

Thank you everyone for responding, and Happy Thanksgiving.
There is a power plug for 220v on the pwrr cord.
The diagram and the actual terminal plate are askew from one another.
I understand that tje ground and lines should be separate, but looking at the numbering I thought I have it correctly.
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[Colin Tanner]

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As you can see, the line wire is on terminal 4 and brown is on terminal 6 as dictated by the wiring diagram. I guess I'm confused?

[Colin Tanner]

Just talked to my brother in-kaw, who installs appliances, and he said that sometimes neutral and ground are connected. He suggested pulling the line conneced to the ground and try it. It was just an idea, but it worked. What gives?

[Dan Friedrichs]

Your brother-in-law is wrong. Ground and neutral are NEVER connected at the load.

The reason it worked is because you've got the ground wire (green) connected to the wrong place in the motor. You've short-circuited it. In your middle picture, see that screw at the very top that goes into the painted black portion? The one that nothing is connected to? That's where your green wire goes.

EDIT: Also, reconnect that "floating" white wire to terminal #4 (where the ground wire is, now)

[Steve Demuth]

Colin,

As I said before, you have to remove the green power cord wire from terminal 4 and attach it to the motor frame by putting it under the bronze screw at the top of your photo. The white power cord wire then goes on terminal 4.

So, you end up with the following:

Terminal 1 (lowermost on your original photo): Black wire from power cord.
Terminal 2 (upper right corner): Red and Blue wires from motor.
Terminal 4 (center of picture): White wire from power cord.
Terminal 5: (upper most in your picture): empty.
Terminal 6: (single tab at far right of your picture): Brown wire from motor.

And, again, the green wire from cord goes on the motor housing.

You have the right 220V plug. Check that the green wire is connected to the ground pin (rounded pin), and the white and black wires are connected to the two blade-like power pins.

Then you're good to go. If you have any doubts, just wire it up and send a picture of the results on both ends before you power it up.

As I said in my earlier post, the configuration your friend had this wired with worked because with a 110V source, the frame ground (green wire) and neutral (white wire) CAN be wired together. They shouldn't be, because it makes the setup less safe than the proper configuration, but it will work. When you switch to 220V, it will no longer work, because in a 220V wiring, both the white and black wires are powered relative to the true ground (the frame ground). So, with the white wire and green wire on the same terminal, you've got a direct short to ground. So, your break blows to keep the wires from melting.

[Colin Tanner]

The green wire was never moved from where it was connected when shipped from the factory. It's the only wire with a spade connector, and where it is attached is the only place to mount a wire with a spade style connector
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This is not the configuration that was in place when I received my saw back, I rewired it back to 230 when I got the saw back, and then put the 230 plug back in the power cable.
As you can see, the location of the ground on the motor is the only place it can be connected. There are no previously used screw holes on the motor to connect the ground.
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The uppermost connection point on the left is terminal 5, abd the uppermost connection point on the right is terminal 2, both of which are listed as being empty.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Don't know what to tell you other than that it's wrong. The green wire is wired correctly on the plug end, but incorrectly in the motor. It goes to the screw on the far left of your second (most recent) picture (or maybe it was meant to go under the screw that is missing in the hole above that screw - either way will work). The white wire goes to one of the lugs where the green wire is, presently.

(It's possible that it worked originally because you had the plug end mis-wired at the time)

Just move the green wire and it will work :)

[Colin Tanner]

(It's possible that it worked originally because you had the plug end mis-wired at the time)
The plug was never wired incorrectly. Only 2 wires were changed when switching between 115 and 230.

[Steve Demuth]

Colin,

Your photo of the green wire clearly shows that it is a ring connector - it's got the screw through it that you removed from terminal 4. It also shows what appears to be a tapped screw hole just above the bronze cover plate screw in the motor housing. If that is indeed tapped, then that's where that green wire belongs. If it's not, then put the bronze cover plate screw through it. Then reattach the white power cord wire to terminal 4. You've got it all right then.

Dan has this exactly right. The green wire is your safety (frame) ground. It should never be bonded to either of the other power cord wires at the motor. As I've explained, the motor will work at 110V if it is, but it's wrong and unsafe.

[David L Morse]

Yes, I think Dan is correct. The Green wire should go here:
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[Colin Tanner]

Okay, so how is the cover going to be secured if the ground wire is in the way? Shouldn't I see signs of a previously tapped hole/mounting?
Is it possible that the motor was damaged being rewired? When I purchased this saw around 2003 I wired it for 220/230 following the same wiring diagram on the motor and it worked perfectly. I never moved the green wire. The green wire is basically molded with its current bends and no sign of being bent any other way in the past. Could my heighbor have rewired it, screwed something up, and damaged the motor so that it no longer works correctly? (Okay, tot sounds ridiculous but I'm exploring possibilities now)

[Steve Demuth]

It's not ideal that way. That's why I strongly suspect the hole in the little cul-de-sac right above the cover plate screw is tapped for the screw in the green wire. That'd be the obvious and ideal place for it.

[David L Morse]

Oh, one more thing. Since the breaker was tripping with the power switch in the "Off" position the White wire must have still been connected to the plug. That means that the switch is only a single pole or is wired incorrectly. A 2 pole switch is required for safe operation at 240V so that both conductors are disconnected when it is turned off. The way it's set up now is a safety hazard.

[Ronald Blue]

Isn't the hole Steve is referring to recessed below the level of the cover plate? It certainly appears to be. Mount the ground wire there. Just bend the eyelet on the wire as needed to get the wire below the the surface the cover plate mounts to.

[Dan Friedrichs]

The plug was never wired incorrectly. Only 2 wires were changed when switching between 115 and 230.

Well, something was wrong or different. I don't know what it is, but the green wire is definitely in the wrong spot. You can keep arguing with us, but a half-dozen people have told you that the green wire is in the wrong spot, and that it will work if you move it.

Go try it. What do you have to lose?

[Dan Friedrichs]

David makes a good point, too - it sounds like there is something wrong with your switch, as well. Perhaps the plug and motor were wired correctly* but something is mis-wired in the switch? A picture of the switch would help.

(*It is extremely poor form - or downright illegal - to use a green wire for anything but equipment ground. So what I'm saying is that it's possible the motor was wired "correctly" in the sense that the correct connections were made using the wrong colored wire. That's very dangerous, because people will assume the green is a ground, and I would definitely fix the connection in the motor, even if it "worked". It would be virtually unheard of for the manufacturer to make a mistake like that, though, which is part of the reason everyone is so adamant that the green wire is in the wrong spot in the motor)

[Colin Tanner]

Put it on one of the screws for the motor's wiring cover, running well. Thanks for everyone's help, for the life of me I can't remember taking it off a screw grounding it to the motor frame.

[Steve Demuth]

I doubt the motor is damaged. My guess is that when your neighbor rewired it for 120, he connected the green wire to terminal 4. One thing we can be absolutely certain of is that the motor never ran on 220 with the green and white wires from the plug wired together like that.

Dan Morse's post with the picture shows exactly where to attach the green wire.

He also makes a good point in a separate post about your switch, which I had overlooked. I'd look into it - if the breaker is tripping with the switch off, your switch isn't really disconnecting power to the motor, which is a definite safety hazard.

[Larry Frank]

One lesson that I have learned is to take a picture before taking anything apart. It is one of the greatest uses for a smart phone. It has saved me many times.

[Ronald Blue]

+1 on what Larry said. Smart phone cameras can be a lifesaver. I use it for this and also taking photos of ID plates with model and serial number for reference when procuring parts or accessories. Usually quicker and easier than writing it down and you aren't likely to lose it. Glad everything is working now.