Mortise wall smoothness question

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

I'm trying not to use any noisy power tools in my apartment where I learn how to build furniture and such from wood. I mostly use quiet hand tools. One of the most used joints in my projects thus far is mortise and tenon joint.

At the moment I'm good enough with making smooth and precise tenons using wide chisel and route plane. But with mortises I struggle much more. And the result is somewhat hairy mortise wall that is not 90 degree to the face.

How smooth it has to be with the modern glues? Or is it simply irrelevant because of other reasons?

[Prashun Patel]

Don't confuse flat with smooth. The mortise wall face needs to be flat. It has to be as vertical as your tenon cheek. Wood glues are not designed to gap-fill. Epoxy does a better job of that.

Keep sharp, and keep at it. You'll get it flat and vertical without a lot of frustration.

Now, as for QUIET, I think mortising is the most neighbor-annyoing operation you could perform, power and hand tool ops inclusive.

[Robert Engel]

Getting the mortise perfectly 90 is critical, especially when building doors, so you are on the right track.

A paring jig helps keep the wall 90 and flat. Paul Sellers has a quite nice one using a brass face. Check his recent video on building doors.

So long as the fit is snug I wouldn't too much about how smooth the walls are. However, with softwoods I often dress the walls with a fine file before fitting the tenon just to remove the fuzzies.

Although PVA glues are not "gap" filling, one has to define exactly what is a "gap". IMO you would have to have an extremely loose very poorly made joint for the glue to fail.

Also keep in mind a MT joint is technically a X grain glue up. I think of the glue as just hold the pieces together while the fit and precise shoulders are what give the joint its strength. I've seen antique pieces of furniture held together with no glue at all, just draw bored pins.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Don't confuse flat with smooth. The mortise wall face needs to be flat. It has to be as vertical as your tenon cheek. Wood glues are not designed to gap-fill. Epoxy does a better job of that.

Keep sharp, and keep at it. You'll get it flat and vertical without a lot of frustration.

Now, as for QUIET, I think mortising is the most neighbor-annyoing operation you could perform, power and hand tool ops inclusive.

That gives me hope, Prashun!

Maybe it is all because I try to make it as quiet as possible. So much that I drill out most of the waste material and then try to square it up and flatten with the chisels. Could it be not so optimal approach to it?

I cannot use my mallet most of the time to chop it out like in books. Maybe when I get some Sorbothane next week to cushion my massive workbench I would be able to use that more. This also makes my think more power tool way. A lot of noise of screaming router but for short time before someone calls police or comes to my door... also more smooth and flat and perpendicular to the face. Or something like domino. Or pantograph router. Or custom CNC setup for M&T. It could take me a year to build something like CNC. But I really would want to avoid all that and do it by hand.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Getting the mortise perfectly 90 is critical, especially when building doors, so you are on the right track.

A paring jig helps keep the wall 90 and flat. Paul Sellers has a quite nice one using a brass face. Check his recent video on building doors.

So long as the fit is snug I wouldn't too much about how smooth the walls are. However, with softwoods I often dress the walls with a fine file before fitting the tenon just to remove the fuzzies.

Although PVA glues are not "gap" filling, one has to define exactly what is a "gap". IMO you would have to have an extremely loose very poorly made joint for the glue to fail.

Also keep in mind a MT joint is technically a X grain glue up. I think of the glue as just hold the pieces together while the fit and precise shoulders are what give the joint its strength. I've seen antique pieces of furniture held together with no glue at all, just draw bored pins.

Thanks, Robert. Yes, I saw that brass guide of Paul. And also tried magnetic saw guide from Veritas. But it requires to use mallet to chop it out that annoys my neighbors.

And your remark about softwoods is very helpful too, because it is a softwood (pine) that I work with at the moment! I also use draw boring but only for big heavy loaded bridle joint...

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Andrey

I cut open a demo mortice that I chopped, and this is what the walls looked like ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Morticing%20vise%20and%20process/13a_zpskrsramz7.jpg

However, chopping is not the preferred method if you are looking to avoid noise. You could either drill out most of the waste with an auger bit, and then pare (I think that this would be the quietest method). Or you could push the mortice chisel with a shoulder (Adam Cherubini used to demo this technique).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Wow, quiet while cutting a mortise is a non sequitur in my way of working.

348053

(The main reason I'm familiar with the phrase 'non sequitur' is it's one of my favorite comic strips):

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

What about using a "Wood is Good" type (some type of hard urethane product?) mallet as opposed to a wooden one?

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Wow, quiet while cutting a mortise is a non sequitur in my way of working.

jtk

Nice one! Apparently, there is a difference between old Europe and new America that is not obvious but important for understanding. Somewhat in length well written here (https://paulsellers.com/2013/02/of-britain-and-america-it-can-be-said-they-are). That is the missing argument! But I tried hard to ignore it and even used contractor size table saw in my apartment a few times. Had to take half a day off of my office job to do it while other neighbors are not at home. And then wait 2 days for dust to settle down. And then vacuum clean the walls. Thankfully, one room in our apartment is "under construction" for several years already (thanks to my wife for allowing that). Hammering something also requires daylight working time and cannot be used on weekend. Stupid regulations! :mad:

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

What about using a "Wood is Good" type (some type of hard urethane product?) mallet as opposed to a wooden one?

I have tried rubber kind of mallet to see if it sounds different. But no, it makes the same boom to the floor and then translates to the neighbors. But cushioning the workbench might work as it has 300 lbs mass to reduce the boom. Going to try that next week.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Hi Andrey

I cut open a demo mortice that I chopped, and this is what the walls looked like ...

However, chopping is not the preferred method if you are looking to avoid noise. You could either drill out most of the waste with an auger bit, and then pare (I think that this would be the quietest method). Or you could push the mortice chisel with a shoulder (Adam Cherubini used to demo this technique).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek! That means that "hairy" is more or less standard for some centuries.

And interesting reference indeed, I kind of did what Adam Cherubini has probably demoed. It works but is very time consuming compared to pre-drilling waste out. Also painful to the shoulder, elbow and palms somewhat more.

Could it be that something machined like domino mortise would make a stronger joint because of the smooth surfaces? Still debating internally power/hand tools dilemma.

[James Waldron]

Wow, quiet while cutting a mortise is a non sequitur in my way of working.

348053

(The main reason I'm familiar with the phrase 'non sequitur' is it's one of my favorite comic strips):

http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/

jtk

I once campaigned a race boat named "Nonsequitur." We did pretty well, as "it did not follow." Took home a good bit of pewter. [What? You thought all those trophies were actually silver? Silly boy!]

[Prashun Patel]

Drilling is a great way to do it; or a brace and bit. A wide bench chisel can really help get a flat-plane mortise wall. I use a Narex for that; it was inexpensive. The problem with the wide chisels is that they are hard to use to pare thick shavings. I reserve my use of this chisel for the final cuts after getting within shooting distance with smaller chisels.

Now, I have seen really good mortise men chop with a mortise chisel and relying strictly on the sides of the mortise chisel to create a 'smooth/flat-enough' wall. I have witnessed that this is probably the fastest way to do it, once you get good. In fact, my teacher didn't even pry out the waste. He just chopped it into smitherenes. You can reduce the sound by mortising on a seated bench and using your thigh as the 'vise' to absorb some of the sound. I love doing this outside when the weather is warm...

[Stewie Simpson]

Don't confuse flat with smooth. The mortise wall face needs to be flat. It has to be as vertical as your tenon cheek. Wood glues are not designed to gap-fill. Epoxy does a better job of that.

Keep sharp, and keep at it. You'll get it flat and vertical without a lot of frustration.

Now, as for QUIET, I think mortising is the most neighbor-annyoing operation you could perform, power and hand tool ops inclusive.

Prashun; I find your comments on the need to keep the side walls of the mortise flat interesting. If you look at the following instructional attachment within the opening post, there is a deliberate slight undercutting of the side walls on a through mortise and tenon fit. shown in fig #6. From a practical perspective, I see no valid reason why you would want to deviate from that practice. A stopped mortise and tenon fit requires a slightly different approach, more similar to what you are prescribing. http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/mortising-114-years-of-progress-t101694.html

Stewie;

[Brian Holcombe]

If you can design more through tenons into your work you can reduce the amount of chopping that is required. I like to minimize paring, it is a real time sink, but chopping out the remainder of a drilled out through mortise is less unbearable (for noise) than chopping out a mortise.

They're certainly more time consuming than cutting out plain mortises, but unless you are on the clock (so to speak) then slowing your project down should simply focus you more on the task at hand.

I sometimes do this chopping work over my rug to reduce the noise, I also wear hearing protection in practically every scenario that involves a mallet (hammer in my case). The rug will help with your neighbors, but the hearing protection...not so much.

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you for sharing that link, Stewie. It seems nothing has changed much in the exchange of opinions...just the medium.

[Brent Cutshall]

Now, as for QUIET, I think mortising is the most neighbor-annyoing operation you could perform, power and hand tool ops inclusive.

Dern mortises, noise makin' critters. My brother always finds somewhere else to work when I'm mortising (auto-correct keeps trying to replace my words). Plus one on drilling the mortise, that's what I do.

[Prashun Patel]

Sorry Stewie, I forgot about through mortises.

[Patrick Chase]

Although PVA glues are not "gap" filling, one has to define exactly what is a "gap". IMO you would have to have an extremely loose very poorly made joint for the glue to fail.


IIRC (though I can't find a reference) PVA wood glue retains a decent fraction of maximum strength up to about 10 mils (~0.25 mm) of clearance. It goes downhill rapidly from there, though.

EDIT: Franklin recommends (http://www.franklinadhesivesandpolymers.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/7-13-15sticky-biz.pdf?sfvrsn=0) 2-6 mils of clearance for "commonly used wood adhesives", which is broadly consistent with my recollection.

[Patrick Chase]

Could it be that something machined like domino mortise would make a stronger joint because of the smooth surfaces? Still debating internally power/hand tools dilemma.

If you look closely at Dominos (http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool-accessories/joiners/tenons/beech-domino-tenons-12mm-x-100mm-pack-of-100-498216) you'll notice that their surfaces are intentionally patterned to prevent squeeze-out and allow air to escape from the joint when it's assembled. Ditto for biscuits and most joinery dowels. Smoothness is unneccessary and can be a liability.

[steven c newman]

About like those videos from GE HONG? He sit on a sawbench. Or rather sits the board on the bench, adds a towel to sit on the wood with. Can chop a through mortise in about the time it took to type this out...

[Brian Holcombe]

I can chop a normal mortise in hardwood in about 4 minutes, taking an easy pace....but I can't do that quietly which is the problem at hand.

[glenn bradley]

Could it be that something machined like domino mortise would make a stronger joint because of the smooth surfaces? Still debating internally power/hand tools dilemma.


If you look closely at Dominos (http://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool-accessories/joiners/tenons/beech-domino-tenons-12mm-x-100mm-pack-of-100-498216) you'll notice that their surfaces are intentionally patterned to prevent squeeze-out and allow air to escape from the joint when it's assembled. Ditto for biscuits and most joinery dowels. Smoothness is unneccessary and can be a liability.

Lots of room for opinions on this. If you talk to PVA adhesive makers (a pretty common glue for many of us), smooth mating surfaces are desired. Glues that bind by absorbing into the material work best if the materials meet well. As mentioned dowels, biscuits and dominos have texture to avoid hydraulic lock and possibly for other reasons where pro shops use HiPUR polyurethane glues and the like that gap-fill to some extent. I cut a groove on each side of the shop made floating tenon stock I make for just this reason although the great majority of the tenon is face grain to mate with the mortise walls.

Although the discussions on the validity of wood joint tests are plentiful in themselves, dowels, biscuits and dominos test to failure at lower levels than floating M&T, M&T, Bridle joints and so forth. Some tests take the time to test varying dimensions of M&T and show optimal sizes for different scenarios. The point is that you can over think a lot of things to a degree beyond the benefit of the analysis. A domino is about half the strength of a well proportioned M&T but, if the domino is plenty strong, how much does the number really matter?

[Derek Cohen]

Is this thread about making mortices as quietly as possible? Or is it about whether smooth walls are necessary?

The latter is easiest to answer - "smooth" is a relative statement anyway. Off a mortice chisel, the walls are "hairy", and this works. Off a bench chisel the walls will be smoother. This works as well.

I thought the big issue was the noise factor. If so, the last thing you want to do is wack a chisel into wood, especially a work piece clamped to a bench top. That is NOISY! I have a Thor plastic headed hammer, which is relatively quiet .... a lot quieter than my wooden mallet. I use it when I need to keep sound levels down, and my gennous are going to disturb the family. But the Thor is still too loud for neighbours in an apartment next door.

Talk about how to cut a mortice - for example, straight down vs a V - totally misses the point here. The point is that one cannot chop at all. Forget chopping.

If you have a quiet drill press, drill out the waste with a forstner bit. This is the best of all since you can overlap the holes (which you cannot do with other drill bit types). If you cannot use a drill press, use a brace-and-bit, and pare away the remainder. You will need a few chisels, working from narrow to wide. This is where paring chisels come into their own.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Eric Brown]

If you can find a brace type Forstner bit you can overlap holes which can remove more material quietly.
After boring you can clean up with chisels.

[Brian Holcombe]

The quiet method can also make smooth walls.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Thank you, gentlemen! Your replies gave me several interesting ideas!

Smoothness and quietness become connected in my mind because if it appears not smooth and then not quiet then why not use not quiet power tools for shorter time and at least have smooth and perpendicular walls. Both aspects interest me. Apologies for confusing title.

Perhaps, doing some chopping outside is a good idea for summer, like Prashun suggested.

Maybe drilling out some of the waste and then using shoulder technique can give better mortise wall. What I mean is not to drill close to the walls, but more away from them. And then use chisel like there would be no holes by pushing it instead of hammering. Till now I was just trying to flatten all four sides of mortise with a chisel. I'll experiment on that.

Is anybody using skew chisel to work on the walls of a mortise? It could in theory make it more like cutting rather then chipping the fibers.

[Patrick Chase]

Is anybody using skew chisel to work on the walls of a mortise? It could in theory make it more like cutting rather then chipping the fibers.

Properly executed paring cuts with conventional chisels cut rather than chip/chop as well. That's more or less the fundamental distinction between paring and chopping. Skew adds a "slicing" component and a lower effective cutting angle, which can sometimes be useful.

I've used skew chisels to pare through mortises. They worked well, but I'm not convinced that they allowed me to do anything I couldn't have done by paring with any other suitable chisel. Skew chisels are less useful with bottomed mortises, for obvious reasons.

Full disclosure: I'm a skew nut, so if anything I probably overestimate its usefulness. I have L+R sets of 30-deg skews at 1/2 and 3/4, as well as L+R 1/4 "dovetail skews" with ~11 deg skew angle to allow them to optimally work the corners of blind DTs.

[Trevor Goodwin]

I have found skew chisels useful for smoothing the ends of the mortise where you are dealing with end grain. In soft timbers like pine, it difficult to clean up the end of mortise without tearing the end grain, so a skew does a better job by slicing on the way down. A straight chisel that matches the mortise can't be skewed so you need to take very light cuts and a have a super sharp edge.

[Stewie Simpson]

If there has been a downside to the recently discussed topic on the glue strength between 2 mated surfaces, we are seeing it in spades on this post. We are not dealing with the requirements of a gluing 2 boards together along their side edge. Were talking about an interlocking mortise and tenon joint. There is an intrinsic mechanical advantage within an m & t joint, that cant be duplicated by glue alone. The choice between a rough or smooth surface has no practical legitimacy based on the facts that your having to work the chisel in a downward direction, into cross grain fibres, to remove the remaining waste to the mortise lines. Regardless of the inherent rough surface, the applied glue will work out just fine as your not dealing with end grain. If your still having major concerns on the integrity of the stopped mortise fit, you have some additional choices available during the planning stage. You can decide to further deepen the fit of the stopped mortise and tenon, or you can bypass the whole idea of a stopped mortise and tenon, and proceed with the benefits offered within a through mortise and tenon.

[Stewie Simpson]

In the following photo I am chiselling out the remaining waste for the top half of a new sharpening stone box. The principles are not that different to preparing a stopped mortise and tenon fit. The ready made tenon is being represented by the sharpening stone.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/jarrah%20sharpening%20stone%20box/_DSC0287_zpsafsknve4.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/jarrah%20sharpening%20stone%20box/_DSC0287_zpsafsknve4.jpg.html)

[Patrick Chase]

In the following photo I am chiselling out the remaining waste for the top half of a new sharpening stone box. The principles are not that different to preparing a stopped mortise and tenon fit. The ready made tenon is being represented by the sharpening stone.


But... but.... Forstner bits in a drill press aren't neander! :)

That's exactly what I'd do in the same situation, just having a cheap laugh.

[Stewie Simpson]

Drill presses are ideal for removing waste in mortises. Set the depth of entry and your on target every time. The brace & bit should be reclassified as ultra stone age. :D

[jamie shard]

I would drill and then pare, if going for quietness. You'll get smooth walls, too, which is ideal.

Here's a good video of a mortise pairing jig.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaZOFWB14-Y

[Derek Cohen]

Excellent tip by Salko on the Oz forum on using a forstner bit in a brace. Forstner bits are the best for morticing as they can overlap. I tried this, and it works a treat ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_unwqESVfA&feature=youtu.be

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

May I suggest you visit the link below. . .

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/MORTISE_BY_HAND.pdf

[Jim Koepke]

Excellent tip by Salko on the Oz forum on using a forstner bit in a brace. Forstner bits are the best for morticing as they can overlap. I tried this, and it works a treat ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_unwqESVfA&feature=youtu.be

Regards from Perth

Derek

For some reason the link doesn't want to work.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Try this Jim

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j_unwqESVfA&feature=youtu.be

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

Excellent tip by Salko on the Oz forum on using a forstner bit in a brace. Forstner bits are the best for morticing as they can overlap. I tried this, and it works a treat ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_unwqESVfA&feature=youtu.be

Regards from Perth

Derek

Broken link. Do you mean this (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=forstner+brace)?

One miniscule nitpick from the video: It would be a bit hard for someone to have come up with that trick a "few hundred years back" when you consider that the Forstner was invented in 1874 :-)

His trick reminded me me of these bargain-priced doodads (https://www.festoolusa.com/power-tool-accessories/cordless-drills/centrotec-drill-bits/zobo-forstner-style-bits-5-piece-set-imperial-500174) :-)