40th birthday bandsaw

[Sam Beagle]

I have one of those anniversary edition grizzly bandsaws. I absolutely hate it worse than any tool possible. So my wife told me to pick any tool for my 40th. I wanna stay under 1500 bucks. I've always wanted a laguna and there on sale for Black Friday. My birthday is 12-2. So. I wanna make sure I will like the laguna. I got the grizzly brand new and hate it. Please give advice on what bandsaw to get. My main use for it is bowl blanks. I've read a lot of posts. But I feel this one warrants a new one. Thank you Sam

[Van Huskey]

I can't help but wonder what your issues with the Grizzly are (and which one are you talking about, there is/was more than one Anniversary edition). It is possible that your affair with the Grizzly is still salvageable. Even if it is not knowing what you dislike about it will help give the best opinion as to what to replace it with.

[richard b miller]

sam- i've got the 555P polar bear series and don't have any issues with mine. it cuts well (i bought a resaw blade for cutting rough lumber) and its a little under powered, but other than that, it works as advertised. what seems to be the problem?

[Patrick Walsh]

My laguna 14/12 is also underpowered at i think 1.5 hp?

I didn't know what i didnt know when i purchased it. I figured it should be up to any task i might ask of it. For small work its fine enough i guess. But throw a 8' piece of 8/4 x 10" hard maple at it and forget it.

Also my ceramic guides have come unglued from the blocks.

[Van Huskey]

My laguna 14/12 is also underpowered at i think 1.5 hp?

I didn't know what i didnt know when i purchased it. I figured it should be up to any task i might ask of it. For small work its fine enough i guess. But throw a 8' piece of 8/4 x 10" hard maple at it and forget it.



Also my ceramic guides have come unglued from the blocks.


What blade are you using for resawing. 1.5hp is under my recommendation for frequent resaw of 10" stock but with the proper blade it still should not be nearly as bad as you suggest.

[Art Mann]

Check your owner's manual. I believe you will find the rated horsepower is 1.75. I have had that model for close to a year now and I resaw Walnut, Maple and Cherry all the time. It doesn't matter whether you resaw 8/4 or 5/8 inch. It is only the width that puts a load on the saw. The only reason I can think of for having trouble with an 8 foot board is that it is extremely clumsy to handle that length with any bandsaw unless you have some kind of elaborate input and output conveyor. I try never to resaw 8 foot long material. I always cut the material to the approximate length before attempting to do the resaw. It also allows for easier planing and jointing. It is very seldom I need a board that is 8 feet long as its final dimension.

Of course horsepower matters but a 14 inch, 1.75 horsepower saw will do just as good a job as a 21 inch, 3 horsepower saw. It just takes longer.

I try not to throw any material at my bandsaw, although I occasionally feel like it. I don't want to dent the housing or damage the paint.

[Mike Cutler]

Sam

It's kind of important to know which model Grizzly you want to replace, so that a true comparison can be made, to aid you in making a decision. Laguna makes nice machines.

I don't want to be the jerk, bit I have to ask; What is it that your current machine is doing negatively that you want to improve on, or make better?

[Sam Beagle]

Hey guys. So it's the black 17" model. Stuff falls off, tire came off. Prob used it 20 times total. I hate it. I want a better quality saw.

[Van Huskey]

Hey guys. So it's the black 17" model. Stuff falls off, tire came off. Prob used it 20 times total. I hate it. I want a better quality saw.

OK I won't bother trying to diagnose then... :)

For a turner you generally will be using 3/8-1/2" blades so you don't need a monster saw to get proper tension.

My first choice since most turners like a bit of throat depth would be the Rikon 10-342 18" saw, 2hp and $1,462.50 shipped (residential liftgate) from Circle Saw. The second would be the Laguna 14BX with the 2.5hp motor which when 10% off will be roughly the same price and the Rikon shipped, both assume you have 240v available. If you want me to go further into the pros and cons of each one let me know if you indeed have 240v and the size range of blanks you tend to cut, the other uses if any you use a BS for and what blade you use for green blank cutting, this will help me hone in on what I would choose. I also assume Grizzly is out across the board, if not lemme know that too.

BTW what is your location?

[Sam Beagle]

Yes. I have 220. Yes. I have bought 2 grizzly items and both are junk in my opinion. The Lugana seems to be my thought too. But I seem to get mixed reviews. Any thoughts would be great. On the laguna or rikon as well.

[Van Huskey]

The Lugana seems to be my thought too. But I seem to get mixed reviews. Any thoughts would be great. On the laguna or rikon as well.


Review and answer the questions I posed in my last post so I can best tailor the pros and cons to your specific uses.

[Ronald Blue]

Where are you located? Maybe your close enough I can relieve you of your misery.

[Matt Day]

Sam, you're not helping yourself by not thoroughly reading replies and supplying answers. Van knows his stuff and is a great resources, let him help you.

PS, there are a lot of very happy Grizzly owners here (I don't have any Grizz machines personally). It likely just needs some adjusting, but if you hate it so much unload it and make someone happy buying your used saw. And buying new tools is fun! Can't blame you there!

[Glenn de Souza]

I also assume Grizzly is out across the board, if not lemme know that too.


Van,
Reading in to your comment, I am suspecting if not for the OP's bias against Grizzly, you might be inclined to recommend one or more of their models. I have heard people say that some kind of upgrade went on at Grizzly where their tools prior to some certain point in time are not a fair comparison to the quality levels of their present day offerings which are much improved. Any truth to this?

[Van Huskey]

Van,
Reading in to your comment, I am suspecting if not for the OP's bias against Grizzly, you might be inclined to recommend one or more of their models. I have heard people say that some kind of upgrade went on at Grizzly where their tools prior to some certain point in time are not a fair comparison to the quality levels of their present day offerings which are much improved. Any truth to this?

Certainly Grizzly as well as all the other companies like Jet that have been essentially Asian importers from their beginnings have increased in quality across the years, you can't compare old Grizzly and blue painted Jet to their offerings today and while the 513 series bandsaws haven't seen any significant upgrades since his saw was made it was/is the budget offering and some things are lacking due it wouls seem to price point engineering. So this doesn't really fall into a situation where quality is night and day.

With all that said without an OP disqualifying Grizzly a budget of 1.5K and wanting the most NEW saw for the money means Grizzly almost has to be part of the conversation, it doesn't mean a Grizzly would be my choice or not. The specific parameters of use will make one saw jump up to me.

In this price range without any manufacturer eliminated I automatically think Laguna, Rikon and Grizzly. Jet and Powermatic don't compare well in this price range and Delta is a non-issue to me these days and we are under the budget to start considering European saws. If I was king of the world I would tune up an old Delta 28-350 20" and drop it at the OP's door when I think of a modest sized saw for a turner on a budget it is the first thing that comes to mind, the only negative is the table height which is a little high if they do a lot of heavy blank cutting.

So yeah I would have certainly discussed the Grizzly 513s and mentioned the new G0817 but I understand and respect having manufacturers that are off a to buy list as I have several.

[Sam Beagle]

I'm in pa. Hey van. I mostly wanna use the saw for rounding 20" blanks. I have a 3520b so that's my capacity. I'm not sure what other questions there were. I do use a 1/2 blade.
The griz has constant tracking issues. It's light, shakes, and just cheaply made. I knew it was a bargain style saw. But I regret buying it. I would like to get the powermatic BS. I may still consider it

[Prashun Patel]

I think there's a lot of generalizations made about Grizzly quality...

I have the G0514x2. While there may be better saws out there, this one handles all my green wood and resaw cutting needs fine. It tracks fine, has a big table, good mass, great stability. No real complaints about it.

I did have a G0555 14" which was fine too. I agree with the OP that it felt a little flimsy when cutting bigger, greener things, but I never had "stuff falling off". It was just a little underpowered for big things.

By far, the difference in cut quality and ease has been due to using low tpi blades.

[Van Huskey]

I'm in pa. Hey van. I mostly wanna use the saw for rounding 20" blanks. I have a 3520b so that's my capacity. I'm not sure what other questions there were. I do use a 1/2 blade.
The griz has constant tracking issues. It's light, shakes, and just cheaply made. I knew it was a bargain style saw. But I regret buying it. I would like to get the powermatic BS. I may still consider it

I ask where you were at because I check CL nationally daily for bandsaw deals and post them in the deals section. Currently depending on where you are in PA there is a 20" Delta Rockwell 28-350 (which I mentioned in the earlier post saying I think it is a great turners BS) in Littletown PA for $450.

https://york.craigslist.org/tls/5876874978.html

With a little elbow grease and a little cash this would make a great saw and better than anything you can buy for well over your budget. OK it is 3 phase but for under $200 you could put a VFD on it and be running. If you are remotely interested let me know and I can talk you through what to look for and how to get it up and running, I also know where to get most any part you need etc.

OK back to new and $1500. I am assuming given your budget your mention of the Powermatic was in reference to the 14" cast Delta clone, if so I say forget it, good saw but not the best for your needs. If you are talking about the 15" PM 1500 then you have significantly increased your budget and this becomes a whole different discussion.

Honestly, we are really down to two saws (assuming you feel comfortable spending all your budget) and those are the Rikon 10-342 and the 2.5hp Laguna 14/bx.

Mass wise the Rikon weighs about 25% more than the Laguna and the table sits 2.5" lower and has a substantially larger base, heavier trunnions, a better tilt mechanism and the throat is 4" deeper and has an extra inch of height under the guides these are all big bonuses when you are dealing with large heavy (wet) blanks. The Rikon also has a significantly longer blade which will run cooler and last longer between changes. If you are using a bi-metal blade like the Lenox Diemaster (a favorite of many turners) the Rikon has more tension capability but both should be fine with any 1/2" blade save a really thick gauge. While it won't matter much for a turner the Rikon has a better heavier fence but the Laguna's is certainly fine.

The Laguna has more horsepower 2.5 to 2. My general rule of thumb is 1/4hp per 1" of vertical height. Let me explain, this is based on my personal preference for hand fed resawing in average hardwood, if you have these numbers (at the blade speed of most small and medium size saws) the blade is going to be the limiting factor for speed, not the saw's power. Given you are cutting up blanks the chip clearance of the blade is going to limit you on both saws so while more is better for your use I doubt you would ever see any difference unless you do a lot of Osage Orange or the like.

The Laguna has a foot brake and I am very partial to bandsaws with a foot brake, I often work on the side of the table, especially cutting thick circles which is what you are doing and being able to stop the saw with my foot keeping two hands on the stock can be very nice, that said you have been working without one, so you have to weight this in your terms. I should note the Laguna brake on these saws is a new approach, they use a disc brake (developed straight from bicycles) and they do not stop as fast as the best foot brakes, then again nothing stops like a Centuaro built saw, they stop so fast with almost zero effort you think the saw will flip over. That does not take away from the general usefullness though.

The Laguna has better guides, especially for wet/pitchy/nasty wood. The side ceramic guides can be run kissing the blade (despite what ANYONE tells you this is the preferred method for these guides) this helps clean all the detritus off that builds up on the blade especially the wet stuff, it basically constantly polishes the sides of the blade. They also don't freeze up like ball bearing roller guides from dust/garbage infiltration. They are also tool free and the easiest to adjust of any guide out there, partly because they can run touching the side of the blade (the thrust surface still needs a little offset). The Rikon has their new updated guides which were in the past the weak spot of all the Rikons. The new ones use very large bearings (which are said to be better sealed), they are completly tool free and are sprung so they move very smoothly during the setting process. Both sets of guides are light years ahead of the poor duplication of Euro guides on your current saw, don't think "real" Euro guides are anything like those. In the end though guides are a point for the Laguna, however Space Age ceramics will likely have ceramic block retrofit guides for the new Rikon guide system, they did for the old ones, and they are not expensive.

I think I have covered most of the functional items. As for the cosmetic side of fit/finish/design Laguna wins for me, they have made their saws look very modern and dare I say cool, well cool for the square appliances modern day bandsaws are. Rikon and Laguna remind me a little of SCM and Felder, SCM like Rikon is a little rough around the edges in a cosmetic sense, Felder and Laguna seem less industrial and more designed to please the eye and tactile senses.


Next up is the warranty, Rikon 5 years, Laguna 1 year. Price is going to be pretty similar. Since you mentioned the Laguna sale coming up it should be $1350 plus whatever taxes and/or shipping you have to pay. Circle Saw in Houston (reputable dealer with a brick and mortar store) has the Rikon for $1312 which if you pick it up at the freight depot will be all you pay, add residential liftgate in and it is $1462 so in the end they will probably be within $50 to $100 of each other.

As for customer service I have had good luck with Laguna and never had to call Rikon but using the internet for "data" Rikon may be better but Laguna seems to have moved from their patchy CS days. I certainly don't put any weight either way here, but others will based on their "data" crunching or personal experience. The only thing that gives me a little pause with Laguna (but wouldn't stop me from buying one of their bandsaws) is they change their models pretty regularly with whole lines getting major revamps and some just disappearing. My concern here is parts avaiabiity, however I have not seen any widespread complaints, just something to consider but I don't know how well Rikon stocks parts either.

In the end, what would I pick, the bigger heavier saw by a small margin. I think either of the saws would work fine for your needs but I just think the Rikon is slightly better suited.

Hope this helps more than it muddies the waters.

[Will Boulware]

I'll second the recommendation for a Delta 28-350. I've got it's ugly (but mostly structurally identical) cousin, a Rockwell 28-3x0, and I couldn't be happier. Barring a great deal on a 36" cast iron machine, you'd be hard pressed to find a better saw for under a grand, and these show up all the time in that price range. Parts are easy, and when well tuned, they are WAY above what you'd get in a new saw for the money. Elbow grease required, but they're worth it.

[Van Huskey]

I'll second the recommendation for a Delta 28-350. I've got it's ugly (but mostly structurally identical) cousin, a Rockwell 28-3x0, and I couldn't be happier. Barring a great deal on a 36" cast iron machine, you'd be hard pressed to find a better saw for under a grand, and these show up all the time in that price range. Parts are easy, and when well tuned, they are WAY above what you'd get in a new saw for the money. Elbow grease required, but they're worth it.


One of the appeals of the 28-350 in my mind is indeed the looks, it is one of the more attractive steel framed saws, keeping a little of the Art Deco look Delta was famous for. I have had several Powermatic PM81s come and go but I have always held onto at least one 28-350, even though the PM81 is a better saw (by degrees) it has that industrial refrigerator look like the 23-3X0 and there is something about a tool or machine that makes you smile when you go to use it. Plus the PM81s usually command 2-3 times the price of 28-350s in similar condition.

[Sam Beagle]

Wow. Van you do really know your stuff. Oddly enough I wanted a 28-350. And just recently I let a very nice one fall through my grasp. 20 moles from home. My biggest issue is the weight. I'm not sure I could handle the weight. But I agree 10000000% percent. It has a certain sex appeal. Great looking machine. The VFD thing scares me, I recently had my powermatic VFD go bad and I had no clue how to hook up the new one. I eventually hired an electrician.

[Will Boulware]

Wow. Van you do really know your stuff. Oddly enough I wanted a 28-350. And just recently I let a very nice one fall through my grasp. 20 moles from home. My biggest issue is the weight. I'm not sure I could handle the weight. But I agree 10000000% percent. It has a certain sex appeal. Great looking machine. The VFD thing scares me, I recently had my powermatic VFD go bad and I had no clue how to hook up the new one. I eventually hired an electrician.

My wife and I unloaded mine from the back of my truck and then rolled it in the garage on a few pieces of black iron pipe. These things are easier to move than a 14" saw as you can pivot them around on the corners of the chassis. They tip in and out of a truck bed very easily, just bring a few 2x's to block up the side where the motor sticks out in the back and balance them on the spine for transport. They're solid as a rock, you're not going to hurt one. Take the table off when you transport/move it, though. The trunions are about the only thing you can damage if you drag it around by the table.

As for the VFD, there's nothing to be scared of there. Here's a pretty good walkthorugh. If you can wire a machine at all, adding a VFD is no problem.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?189669-Running-my-3-phase-bandsaw-using-a-VFD&highlight=

Yeah, you'll have some sweat equity involved in getting one of these up and running, but after you get used to being around it, the new stuff in the store will largely make you chuckle to yourself. They're burly machines. Outside of a good cast iron monster, there's not another saw I'd rather have.

[Van Huskey]

+1 to everything Will said except IMO there are better 20" steel bandsaws made today but they are going to be in the $4500 range.

The 28-350 is not a difficult saw to handle I have moved them on and off pallets by myself, the have a VERY large squarish base and aren't near as tippy as most modern saws.

VDFs are nothing to fear, they just look complicated. Now you can spend as much time as you like programming the exact drive parameters BUT with a bandsaw and one that isn't a hard start (the 28-350 have very light wheels for a 20" saw, maybe 15 pounds each) you can leave most everything at factory settings on the drive and wiring is very straight forward and plenty of people here and other places on the web will be glad to help. While VFDs do sometimes fail it is actually a very rare occurrence for even the budget offerings from the quality name brands.

[Geoff Crimmins]

Honestly, we are really down to two saws (assuming you feel comfortable spending all your budget) and those are the Rikon 10-342 and the 2.5hp Laguna 14/bx.

Would the Rikon 10-353 14" or the Laguna 14SUV (which would be just over the OP's price limit during the 10% off sale) be worth considering as well? For others who might be following this thread, how do the Grizzly saws compare to the Rikon and Laguna saws in this price range?

--Geoff

[Van Huskey]

Would the Rikon 10-353 14" or the Laguna 14SUV (which would be just over the OP's price limit during the 10% off sale) be worth considering as well? For others who might be following this thread, how do the Grizzly saws compare to the Rikon and Laguna saws in this price range?

--Geoff


The 1,000-2,000 price range is littered with options, including the 10-353, LT14SUV and it also has options from Jet (especially considering the upcoming 15% off sale) and a host of Grizzly saws (new G0817 and the 513 and 514 lines) along with some lesser discussed saws like Oliver and Baileigh. Discussing all the options in any depth would take a couple of hours. If someone is interested in specific saws I am happy to write a little about it but I am in and out of town this week and have family functions toward the end of the week so I might not be able to do it justice until next weekend. In a general sense none of these saws are "bad" saws, though I can't say much about the new Grizzly since I haven't even seen one in person much less played with it. There are ones that are better suited to certain types of use versus others and some I personally just prefer. That said most people that own each saw will usually either love or hate it and while I have recommended the 513 line from Grizzly many (MANY) times it obviously isn't the OP's cup of tea, he had a couple of machines that he wasn't happy with and most all of us would have come to a similar conclusion if it had been us.

So if you want to discuss other saws in the price range start a new thread and I am sure it will get a ton of responses these "step up" saws get a lot of interest and a lot of opinions.