Metal lathe users?

[Tom Albrecht]

Don't bust me on this, I am just trying to learn.

Are there any woodturners here who also own, and use, a machine lathe? I am thinking of getting a small one.

[Keith Outten]

I own a 7 by 14 Grizzly metal lathe and a Jet Midi wood lathe.
My wood turning is about 95% pens so I'm not much of a "Turner".
.

[Brice Rogers]

I own a 12 x 36 Atlas Commercial metal lathe circa 1970.

I have used it to make some tools and accessories for my wood lathe (in addition to scores and scores of other things).

[Larry Copas]

I have a 9” South Bend and a 12” Logan. I've made a lot $$$$$'s of toys for the wood lathe. Probably 10 different face plates, vacuum adapter, live tail stock center, a bunch of handle adapters, and a lot of stuff I've forgot about.

Its all fun.

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[Allan Ferguson]

Lodge and Shiplee lathe at my Dad's place. Swing around 24" and 7 feet between centers. I haven't used it in a long time. This lathe was used for WWII war production. It is a beast.

[Bruce Page]

I have a 14X40 Logan. It's not a very good wood turner, not enough RPM's
Allan, I've run Lodge & Shipley slant bed lathes in the past, they're good lathes.

[Bill Blasic]

Just bought a Grizzly G0602 and I was pretty surprised about the quality of the machine.

[Josh Bowman]

I have a South Bend 9 and use it......for metal work. Mainly making stuff for the wood lathe.

[John K Jordan]

Don't bust me on this, I am just trying to learn.

Are there any woodturners here who also own, and use, a machine lathe? I am thinking of getting a small one.


Tom,

I have two metal-cutting lathes - a very small "classic" Unimat and a HiTorque 8.5x20 (Little Machine Shop). It is incredible how useful this is around the shop and farm, especially with a small milling machine next to it. I am able to quickly repair and make things quickly that I couldn't possibly do otherwise.

Do you have specific things you'd like to do with the lathe?

One thing I like to make is handle inserts for wood lathe tools. Cut from steel I can make them more compact and easier to hold for smaller tools - the commercial inserts made from aluminum are too big for me.

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A good friend of mine has three good metal lathes. His advice if buying an inexpensive Chinese import (Harbor Freight, etc) is to disassemble it completely as and clean and smooth the rough edges from all the parts. Especially important is cleaning the gears - I've read the manufacturers sometimes use an grease with abrasive it in to hone the roughness from the gears but don't bother to clean them afterwards. Don't know if that's true but it wouldn't hurt to clean them.

Keep in mind that the cost of the lathe is only the start, just like woodturning! You can easily spend that much again for tooling, chucks, quick-release tool holders, precision measuring tools, etc. Also, metalworking lathe and mill make a big mess! I bought a stand with a built-in tray to catch the lubricant and chips. I keep all my metal-working well away from the woodworking.

JKJ

[Doug Rasmussen]

Metal lathes do a good job turning wood. The lack of rpm is made up for in the rigidity of the work holding and the tools. I know a couple of flute makers who do all their turnings on their metal lathes, another makes odd varieties of bagpipes. None own traditional wood lathes.

In my business we supplied all sorts of small metal parts to stringed instrument makers, mostly electric guitar makers and one harp maker (I'm not any sort of musician, a friend in the business needed parts). The big guitar guys are all using CNC machines for necks and bodies. The ones I know well have gravitated away from or bypassed entirely CNC wood cutting machines in favor of cutting wood on metal working CNC machines. The metal working machines are more versatile, but also an issue of availability of parts, add-on accessories and service of the CNC control electronics. Big CNC wood routers still have their place in working with sheet goods beyond the size capacity of typical CNC machine tools, 4 x 8 foot plywood and such.

Metal lathes are naturals for bowl turning within the swing of the lathe. To "automate" bowl turning all you need is a ball turning attachment. Any number of plans for simple to make ball turners are a Google search away.

One issue that comes up about cutting wood on machine tools is dust. That may be an overblown concern. All the major metal machine tool builders warranty their machines for wood cutting.

Another concern is cost. Probably about the same cost, either a metal lathe or a wood lathe after factoring in turning tools and associated sharpening systems. Use carbide on the metal lathe and don't be concerned with sharpening.

IMO, the major advantage of a metal working tool is being able to work difficult woods as easily as easy woods. You can be concerned with design more than your turning skills. When you get into discussion with artists sometimes it comes up that it's cheating to make art this way, but that's life. How many years has it been since Chihuly personally blew one of his signature $10K pieces? How about Wendell Castle with carved wood pieces in the hundred$ of thousand$ being done on a very high end CNC machine that he doesn't even know how to program?

[John K Jordan]

Metal lathes do a good job turning wood....

For those not aware, you can also turn non-ferrous metals on a wood lathe with standard tools. I've turned quite a bit of aluminum and brass. It's slow, but it works well. Turned mostly with Thompson spindle gouges, skew, parting tool.

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JKJ

[Leo Van Der Loo]

As this Question came up at the AAW I can answer this here as well, yes I have and turn on a metal lathe, and have a couple smaller other wood lathes.

It is almost 60 years ago that I taught myself turning wood on a large metal lathe in our family’s shop, as there was no-one to show me how to around, no forums around either ;)

It was an uphill battle, but I persevered and had a lot of fun, found out that turning hard tropical wood was the way to go, using the scrapers I made myself, no bowl gouges invented yet :eek:.

The nice thing was that I had a good friend that had a family with a specialty sawmill that often cut the hard tropical logs that were shipped into Rotterdam, that was fairly close by and cutoffs were mine :).

Then here in Canada I again bought a larger metal lathe to turn larger pieces, and made all the accessories I needed to turn wood on that lathe, except for one banjo on the inboard side, a General one.

I do have a couple other smaller lathes also, but to turn the larger bowls, I like to turn on the outboard side of the lathe, as I am facing the turning and I can hold my cutting tools the way I like, in reverse as well, I’m also out of the line of fire :D

The first two pictures are in my previous shop where I build the stand and all the pieces I wanted/needed to be able to turn wood, the stand is made with 2 12” high pressure pipes and a 10” I beam.

The outboard is made with a 1” thick slab of steel and the banjo I build myself also, max swing is about 34” unless I raise the lathe up higher, never needed that yet ;)

The last picture is in my shop here in ATIKOKAN
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[Brice Rogers]

John, you are right about turning non-ferrous metals on a wood lathe.

I actually turned some cast iron or steel. :eek: When I got my Grizzly G0766, the 14" tool rest would not go (in my opinion) far enough down. They changed the banjo, but I wanted to use the original banjo from time to time. So I decided to turn off about 3/8 - 1/2 inch of the shoulder. The tool rest was too big for my 12x36 metal lathe. So I chucked up the tool rest and used a carbide (metal lathe) cutter to slowly turn off the metal. I mounted the cutter in a 1/2" square bar and attached a collar so that I could control the depth of cut. That helped to minimize any catches. I would set the collar to take off perhaps 0.020 or 0.030" max and the work it back and forth. When I got the angles perfect I was getting reasonable small curly chips. I kept the overhang as short as possible to minimize chatter. My biggest concern was the 14" "propeller" that was flying around only a couple of inches away from my hand. After perhaps 10 minutes the job was done and the finish was...acceptable.

I wouldn't advise others to turn steel or CI on their wood lathe but it is possible if one is particularly careful. Non-ferrous metals are even easier. :D

[Don Bunce]

I have a South Bend 10k, that I turn both metal and wood on, very handy for making tools and adaptors for the wood lathe. I recently bought a Sherline lathe and milling attachment to be used with my PM3520b to make an ornamental lathe.

As has been mentioned, the Vortex pulls hard once you have metal working capabilities. Besides the accessories for the lathe, you will want a milling machine, and all the goodies you need to go with it.

[Doug Rasmussen]

This is my idea of the ultimate lathe for wood turners and metal turning. A pattern makers lathe. Use it for turning using the traveling carriage assembly or mount a banjo for hand turning. When new these had an endless assortment of accessories for turning all shapes. Notice the bowl blanks under it and the heavy chuck to the right on the work bench.

There was a similar Oliver pattern makers lathe on Seattle CL for a couple weeks at $3900, gone now so may have sold.

[Tom Albrecht]

I am debating between a new, mini, Chinese built to Little Machine Shop specs:http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3540&category=1271799306

Or a larger and older mini-beast which appears to be overpriced: http://www.alencotool.com/lathepages/lathe073041.html

[Leo Van Der Loo]

That little Atlas is a sweet lathe Tom, accessories for it might be easier found, asking price can be whittled down usually.

[Tom Albrecht]

That little Atlas is a sweet lathe Tom, accessories for it might be easier found, asking price can be whittled down usually.

That's what I thought. Everybody seems to think it's priced high.

So you think that Atlas accessories will be easy to find?

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I would think a lot easier than for the far east build one, as there are many of these lathes and have been around for years, they are sturdy and well made lathes.

Ebay does show al kinds of accessories for Atlas lathes.

[Doug Rasmussen]

I am debating between a new, mini, Chinese built to Little Machine Shop specs:http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3540&category=1271799306

Or a larger and older mini-beast which appears to be overpriced: http://www.alencotool.com/lathepages/lathe073041.html

Tom, out of curiosity I checked Chicago CL, 165 hits under "lathe". Several South Bend and Logan lathes with quick change gear boxes, better lathes for less money than your links.

On other forums posters have mentioned the bargains in lathes in your area. It appears to be true. If there are that many better deals right now think about what you might find by watching CL on a daily basis.

[Brice Rogers]

Tom, Yes, IMHO the Atlas is significantly overpriced. I own a 12 x 36 (Commercial) Atlas and paid around $500. It came with a 3 jaw and a 4 jaw chuck. If you keep looking around you should be able to find a better deal.

[Kenneth Hertzog]

Yes I use a Metal lathe for turning wood projects
it is a sherline lathe and I have both CNC and manual models
they work very well for rounding stock then switch it to the wood lathe for finishing
Ken

[Don Bunce]

Here is a link to South Bend's book, How to run a lathe. Lot's of good info.

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/3789.pdf

[Tom Albrecht]

Thanks Doug, I have been checking CL daily, but out of those 145 to 165 "hits" most of them are for parts or tools.
I'm not in a hurry though.

[Josh Bowman]

Tom, I had a HF version of the Grizzly lathe you showed. I really couldn't get it to do much for me......too small and under powered. So I found the SB 9 on CL up in Indiana and drove up there to get it. You got to have tooling like, chucks, tool holders, boring bars, taper attachments, etc. to make these machines do much for you. Tooling is expensive. In my case I thought I got some great tooling, but found the chucks were worn out as well as some other parts. I did enjoy rebuilding my lathe, it was very dirty. Down here around Chattanooga Tn. we don't have very many lathes available, plenty of tractor stuff, but few lathes. Up around Chicago, you should be able to scoop up a great deal, that's in good condition. I'd look at Logans, SB9's, Atlas, some of these are called "Tool Room" lathes, they are smaller and more suited for wood workers. Bigger is better, but often not practical, and tooling can be more expensive. Study up on the options for these models. My SB9 came in 3 models, A, B and C. The attraction of mine was the powered cross feed and compound feed as well as having a tapering attachment. Tonight I used all of these features making a couple of captured boring bars for our Christmas silent auction. If you're like I was, you don't know much about metal lathes. Check the bed is not over worn. Many of these small heavy duty lathes did one function in a factory and that area of the bed and feed screw are worn out. Check the bearings, they can be replaced, but better if you don't have to. The lathes I listed have a good aftermarket following and parts are available. Shars is a good supplier as well as ENCO, there are others. Start with a good 3 jaw chuck, life's is too short to center up a 4 jaw chuck (there jaws are independent). Consider upgrading the drive system to a VFD. Dealers Electric carry TECO VFD's and motors that aren't too expensive. At least I've had good luck with them. Lastly, watch mrpete222 on Youtube. He's a crusty old HS shop teacher and will teach you all you need to know to do most operations.

[Tom Albrecht]

Thanks guys. I have found a sweet South Bend 9A with loads of accessories for less that 2K.

I still struggle in my head with the idea of devoting a space to such a metal monster compared to the tiny space that a Chinese machine would take up and the distracting effect of having a new non-woodturning toy to take me away from woodturning.

Soon to decide...

Tom

[roger oldre]

The logans and south bends typically have babbit bearings. these will not take the long term rpms and the thrust bearings dont take the thrust load that is needed to keep the spur engaged with the workpeice. Atlas however used timken tapered bearings which are terrific for both load characteristics and can run for MANY years at high speed necessary for wood turning. Fourof these were the workhorses in my fathers woodturning shop for over 60 years! when he retired I returned 2 of them to original and sold them as metal lathes and kept two. Then built two replacements from scratch. these would be classified as a pattern makers type lathe today. I do have a SAG14. a LeBlond 20x120 and a tsugami chucker that have been used for wood as well on occasion.

[Larry Matchett]

I have an Atlas 10F. Made somewhere around war II or so. I have made all the metal parts for a rose engine, countless tool handles and other accessories for my wood lathe. I have the milling attachment for it. I also recently bought a mill Precision Mathews. Other are correct you will spend more on accessories for metal working then you do for wood working. Everything costs more. I love having both machines. I have found that I make more stuff for my neighbors then for me. I am retired so my labor is free. They provide the materials and I get to have all the fun. Doesn't get better then that.

[Tom Albrecht]

Thanks Larry.

I've decide to pass on the SB 9A. I just don't have the space to devote to that nice beast.

I am seriously considering the Precision Mathews 10/22 lathe.

[Olaf Vogel]

The logans and south bends typically have babbit bearings. these will not take the long term rpms



in general, there’s no issues with babbitts at high speed. There are many examples:
- turbines
- jet engines
- turbo chargers


"The turbocharger shaft and turbine wheel assembly rotates at speeds up to 300,000 rpm. Turbocharger life should correspond to that of the engine, which could be 1,000,000 km for a commercial vehicle. “

- 130 year ld babbitt bearing wood lathes like mine. :)


Unless you are saying that SB lathes don’t have adequate lubrication...

[Doug Rasmussen]

in general, there’s no issues with babbitts at high speed. There are many examples:
- turbines
- jet engines
- turbo chargers


"The turbocharger shaft and turbine wheel assembly rotates at speeds up to 300,000 rpm. Turbocharger life should correspond to that of the engine, which could be 1,000,000 km for a commercial vehicle. “

- 130 year ld babbitt bearing wood lathes like mine. :)


Unless you are saying that SB lathes don’t have adequate lubrication...

The main problem with plain bearings in old machinery is they usually have not been adequately lubricated by the users at some time in their lives.
Once they're run without proper lubrication for even short periods wear increases exponentially destroying the fit between bearings and spindle.

An older plain bearing metal lathe I owned needed constant adjustment of the bearing caps. When you started a job the bearing's top cap had to be tightened down just a bit to remove any play or looseness in the spindle, as things warmed up the spindle, etc expanded slightly so you had to loosen the cap to prevent too tight a fit.

Automobile engines have plain bearings which last forever, those have pressure lube systems assuring they have a film of oil supporting the rotating element in the bearing. The high rpm applications of plain bearings you mention also have special lube systems that aren't present on old, low end machine tools. South Bend is the only lathe company I can think of off hand that used a plain bearing spindle from day one until their end.

[Olaf Vogel]

T
Once they're run without proper lubrication for even short periods wear increases exponentially destroying the fit between bearings and spindle.


And when metal lathes lose their tight tolerances, their value drops and they become wood lathes.
:)

[roger oldre]

I dont know of a metal lathe with babbit bearings that run pressurized oil systems.LOL Atlas was available with plain bearings as well as timkens. with the timkins properly lubed you could simply preload the bearings properly to bring them back into tolerance. I know of two south bends that met their end from people trying to copy my dads technique as well as his first lathe which was an atlas with babbit bearings. He replaced the headstock with a timken head. I guess I should have just stated that an atlas with timkens makes a sweet wood lathe too!