Just a question about Bench Dog planes.

[Brian Kent]

Although I am not in the market for a hand plane at the moment, I was wondering if anyone has tried the Bench Dog Hand Planes at Rockler. Well made? Good steel?

I am happy with my rebuilt Stanleys, a home-made infill, and a bevel-up Veritas, so this is just a curiosity question.

[Patrick Chase]

Although I am not in the market for a hand plane at the moment, I was wondering if anyone has tried the Bench Dog Hand Planes at Rockler. Well made? Good steel?

I am happy with my rebuilt Stanleys, a home-made infill, and a bevel-up Veritas, so this is just a curiosity question.

I'm pretty sure they're Groz' "high-end" line, which are made to be sold under other brands rather than Groz. Garrett Wade, Axminster, and Shop Fox are known to source their planes from Groz (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/american-woodworker-blog/whats-new-in-the-world-of-premium-planes-part-2-the-made-in-india-group), and their block planes look awfully similar to the new Bench Dog (if you ignore the fact that the scaling is funky in GW's product photo):

http://www.garrettwade.com/low-angle-cast-iron-block-plane.html
https://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-D3831-Adjustable-Block-8-Inch/dp/B005W144E0/ref=sr_1_2?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1322450617&sr=1-2
http://www.rockler.com/bench-dog-tools-40-406-no-60-1-2-low-angle-block-plane?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&sid=V9146

The Bench Dog smoother looks identical to the Axminster Rider #4, which is also a higher-end Groz OEM design:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-rider-no-4-smoothing-plane-ax945300
http://www.rockler.com/bench-dog-tools-40-401-no-4-smoothing-plane

These look OK based on paper specs, but I swore off Groz long ago based on the execrable quality of their own-brand products. Maybe they've cleaned up their act and manufacture the OEM stuff to higher standards. You should be able to get a feel by looking at reviews of the above-listed planes.

[Brian Kent]

Interesting. Thank you.

[Pat Barry]

...I swore off Groz long ago based on the execrable quality of their own-brand products.
I had to look this up with google because I figured: 1) you either made up a word; B) had some kind of typo; or 3) I could learn something new today. :)

[Patrick Chase]

I had to look this up with google because I figured: 1) you either made up a word; B) had some kind of typo; or 3) I could learn something new today. :)

Glad I could help :-)

[Jim Koepke]

I had to look this up with google because I figured: 1) you either made up a word; B) had some kind of typo; or 3) I could learn something new today. :)

Google, Doesn't everyone's computer do this?:

347311

jtk

[Ray Selinger]

I,too, had to look it up. Perfect word.

[Patrick Chase]

Interesting. Thank you.

One nice thing about Veritas/LN/etc is that they design and build their own products, so they know exactly what they're selling and how they intended it to be used etc.

When you get into "house brands" like Bench Dog the retailer is typically selling the products of globalized OEM/ODM-based supply chains. They often don't know the details of the products they're selling, and it's basically a lost cause for the consumer unless you can figure out which OEM they're using and get the information that way.

[Wayne Collier]

Jim,

Thanks, forgot that my computer would do that.

Wayne

[Tom Vanzant]

Patrick, that word was meant to be a derivative of excrement, right?

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, that word was meant to be a derivative of excrement, right?

No, but that's a common misconception that sometimes causes people to incorrectly spell it without the second 'e'. It's the adjective form of the verb "execrate", which has been in the English language since the Middle Ages, and ultimately derives from Latin.

[Joe Tilson]

I'll let you know in a week or so, because I just bit on the Bench Dogs from Rockler. I understand they have improved their quality to a much higher standard. It just wouldn't be fit for Bench Dog to sell lesser quality. If need be, I will return them.

[Eric Danstrom]

Not Groz, made in India by Shobha Industries.

[Jim Koepke]

Not Groz, made in India by Shobha Industries.

Is there an indication that it has always been the same manufacture?

Could there be various factories bidding on making the planes?

jtk

[ken hatch]

My question when I see something like this is: Why?

#4 Bench Dog $110 USD on sale at Rockler. PreWar #4 Stanley "Buy It Now" less than $50 USD. Maybe both need some work to make a user but with the Stanley you have good bones to work with.

Sometimes you get what you pay for, but never what you do not pay for.

ken

[Eric Danstrom]

Is there an indication that it has always been the same manufacture?

Could there be various factories bidding on making the planes?

jtk
They've only been available for a ~year...I suppose it could be a couple factories but when one factory's line up matches the Rockler offerings and the other doesn't it seems unlikely. Esp when considering the volumes. Does it matter that the planes arent made by Groz? I read Groz are excretable and no one wants that.

[Tony Zaffuto]

First, I do not own a Bench Dog plane-I got plenty of other vintage and new in my accumulation. I was at a
Pittsburgh area Rockler and had a chance to handle a couple (store manager is a handtool guy) some months ago. I choose not to take the plane to wood but to give them (smoother and block) a good look. Using the edge of the sole and side as a straight edge against the sole of another, the sole was straight. Plane well finished. Block well finished. Controls worked smoothly on both.

There is nothing written in stone that only LN or LV can make top notch modern planes. These aren't bad at all, and a bit cheaper. There is also nothing written in stone that a rank amateur will find a fully workable vintage or be able to make one work. For a person in the Pittsburgh area, a Bench Dog plane would be a good choice, provided Vince, the manager, was around to give you a few pointers. Now will I purchase one? I doubt it, and I would not ask for one for a gift, BUT, if given one as a gift, it would definitely see use and I doubt I would curse it. They ain't bad!

[Eric Danstrom]

Since the Chinese versions sold at Woodcraft now cost the same as or very near the price of LN and Veritas the Indian knock offs are the next alternative. I bet WC is disappointed choosing a Chinese supplier, nobody wants a knockoff when you can get the real McCoy for the same price. Score one for Rockler in the cheap knockoff battle. Kinda sad both turned their backs on North American companies to become middle-men for off shore junk.

[Joe Tilson]

I sent an email to Bench Dog asking them to tell who their manufacturer is.
Let's see if they ever answer.

[Frederick Skelly]

Kinda sad both turned their backs on North American companies to become middle-men for off shore junk.

Agree it's sad they dont sell North American product. But the WC planes are not actually "junk". I have 2 and the quality is good. I cant speak to the Rockler product.

[Mike Brady]

In checking the Garrett Wade website, I found it interesting that this company lists Lie-Nielsen products but says they are currently unavailable. We can speculate about the reaons for this, but I know Thomas once worked for Garrett Wade, and got into his current business through opportunities developed there.

[J. Greg Jones]

Since the Chinese versions sold at Woodcraft now cost the same as or very near the price of LN and Veritas the Indian knock offs are the next alternative. I bet WC is disappointed choosing a Chinese supplier, nobody wants a knockoff when you can get the real McCoy for the same price. Score one for Rockler in the cheap knockoff battle. Kinda sad both turned their backs on North American companies to become middle-men for off shore junk.
Can’t speak for Rockler, but Woodcraft didn’t have much of a choice after they broke their contract with LN and LN subsequently pulled it.

[Frederick Skelly]

Can’t speak for Rockler, but Woodcraft didn’t have much of a choice after they broke their contract with LN and LN subsequently pulled it.

LInk to the actual story (https://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/12/19/lie-nielsen-toolworks-and-woodcraft-part-ways)

[J. Greg Jones]

Which all happened after Woodcraft had a nation-wide sale, 20% off all Lie-Nielsen products which went counter to their agreement with Lie-Nielsen.

[Eric Danstrom]

The Woodcraft BU 62 is now listed at the same price as the LN 62. The $250 WC BU is slightly better than the $100 Stanley version but in no way compares to its North American competitors. I looked at the WC chinese chisels, again, very poor quality. The handles don't line up with the blades on the stock at my local WC. Combine that with surly clerks and I wonder just what it is I'm supposed to support....

[Frederick Skelly]

The Woodcraft BU 62 is now listed at the same price as the LN 62. The $250 WC BU is slightly better than the $100 Stanley version but in no way compares to its North American competitors. I looked at the WC chinese chisels, again, very poor quality. The handles don't line up with the blades on the stock at my local WC. Combine that with surly clerks and I wonder just what it is I'm supposed to support....

At the time I bought my 2 WC planes, they were far lower in price than LN. (My #3 was $100.) The WC Version 3 planes work very well. I agree I would buy LV or LN if they were "closer". It would be silly to do otherwise, wouldn't it? I have no experience with the WC chisels.

Edit: I compared some prices and Wow has WC gone up:
* WC 62 vs the LN are within $6 of each other? That is insane. Buy LN.
* WC #3 is $189 vs $325 for the LN. I'd go see what LV had and buy that.
* WC 4 1/2 is $219 vs $325 for the LN. Id buy the LV (actually, I did) or the LN.

[Frederick Skelly]

Which all happened after Woodcraft had a nation-wide sale, 20% off all Lie-Nielsen products which went counter to their agreement with Lie-Nielsen.

I've heard that said but I've never been able to find much of anything on it. (No newspaper or trade magazine sort of info.) And I wasnt "into` hand tools at the time so I don't have any firsthand knowledge of that WC sale. Do you know anything more on all that Greg?

[Stewie Simpson]

At the time I bought my 2 WC planes, they were far lower in price than LN. (My #3 was $100.) The WC Version 3 planes work very well. I agree I would buy LV or LN if they were "closer". It would be silly to do otherwise, wouldn't it? I have no experience with the WC chisels.

Edit: I compared some prices and Wow has WC gone up:
* WC 62 vs the LN are within $6 of each other? That is insane. Buy LN.
* WC #3 is $189 vs $325 for the LN. I'd go see what LV had and buy that.
* WC 4 1/2 is $219 vs $325 for the LN. Id buy the LV (actually, I did) or the LN.

Fred; there is a valid explanation for the price increase on WC tools;


But that is not how tariffs work. China’s government and companies in China do not pay U.S. tariffs directly. Tariffs are a tax on imported products and are paid by U.S.-registered firms to U.S. customs when goods enter the United States.

[J. Greg Jones]

Yes, I have first-hand information on some of the details and I used to have a connection with a Woodcraft franchise owner, and there was also some internet speculation that may/may not be accurate, so here is the story as I recall it. LN had set up a handful of Woodcraft franchises as dealers before they ever had a national contract with Woodcraft corporate. LN did not object to these dealers offering a discount at special events, such as a LN open house, but otherwise all LN products were to be sold at MSRP. Later LN and Woodcraft corporate entered into a national agreement and what I was told was that part of the agreement stated that all LN products would be sold at MSRP.

Now moving to September of 2009, the Woodcraft sale event unfolded and there are conflicting stories on how it happened. One version had it that a Woodcraft location (I believe in Texas) that was one of the original group of LN dealers had requested promo materials from corporate for a local event they were having, and LN products were at 20% off. Someone at corporate screwed up and created flyers for all Woodcraft locations, which violated the contract. Personally, I find that difficult to believe, I think corporate knew what they were doing all along.

Either way, the 20% off sale was extremely successful and LN was flooded with orders that literally took months to fill. This created the demand issue mentioned in the article you linked to. As I write this I am looking at a hard copy receipt I have for the LN LAJ that I purchased during the sale on 09/24/09. The LAJ sold for $245 back then, same as today, and shipping was $13.99 for a total of $258.99. There was no Woodcraft corporate presence in Kentucky at the time, so no Kentucky sales tax. At the bottom of the invoice it says “Coupon Apld $62.99 ($49 for 20% off + $13.99 free shipping) for a net total on the plane of $196.00. Now here is an interesting point about the invoice, the line item gives an item number of 07026 and the description says “Low Angle Jack Plane”. No mention of Lie-Nielsen at all, which makes me wonder if that was intentional for the sale?

Now there was one additional rumor around the same time that LN and Woodcraft had been working together to design the Woodriver line of planes that would sell for much less than they do today, giving Woodcraft that option while not selling an item that would give much competition to the LN line. At some point that collaboration ended, and I have no info on what the timing and cause of it was. Did the sale cause the collaboration to end, did the collaboration end resulting in Woodcraft retaliating with the sale, or something else entirely?

The first version of the Woodriver planes were cheaper, lower quality, and were a direct knock-off of LN, even to the point that, IIRC, they had the same casting marks as the LN. Quality wise, it was so poor that they soon released a version 2 which still had problems. Only after Rob Cosman was contracted to consult with Woodcraft on the version 3 that is sold today, did they make a quality Woodriver plane (so I am told, I’ve never used one myself).

[Eric Danstrom]

Fred; there is a valid explanation for the price increase on WC tools;
I don't pay tariffs on Chinese products, I don't buy Chinese products. That was easy. Of course anyone from a heavily regulated Western European economic system explaining how "tariffs are taxes" is rich with irony. Anyone care to explain VAT while we're on the subject of taxes.....

[Stewie Simpson]

Crikey Eric; ya may want to reduce that intake of Fiery Hot Tabasco Sauce.

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred; there is a valid explanation for the price increase on WC tools;

Bet you're right Stewie.I hadnt thought of that.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Greg!

[Tony Zaffuto]

Bench Dog currently on sale at 20% off listed prices. Posted just for info as I have no need for any additional planes.

[Joe Tilson]

Just got the 4 1/2 And 5 1/2 Bench Dog planes from Rockler. Heavy rascals, which is what I like, and they are very nice looking. I will have to let you know about they operate after I check for flatness and sharpen them. Will not be able to do that until the oppressive heat leaves our area. I have three chairs to refinish as well. I''ll let you know as soon as I can.

As for pricing of these tools, I couldn't have gotten these any less expensive from other sources. Ebay for instance had pricing anywhere from $20 to $70+ higher for the used planes on their site.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I read Groz are excretable and no one wants that.

excretable? I looked up the definition and I am still confused. :confused:

[Jim Koepke]

excretable? I looked up the definition and I am still confused. :confused:

Something that can be excreted. Not a pleasantry about how something comes into being.

jtk

[Joe Tilson]

I said I would get back to you fine folks about the Bench Dog 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 purchased from Rockler. So far I have only been able to get the 4 1/2 fettled some and a test run. They are heavy compared to Stanley, Sargent, and Union. They have thick blades like Millers Falls in the neighborhood of 1/8 of an inch. Did a test run with white oak and this plane did a good job at taking .003 of an inch shavings on all four sides of the board without much pressure from behind. I would guess the weight of the tool helped in that area. If you don't like heavy tools don't get these planes. I personally don't mind the weight. I like these planes.
The reason I didn't get back to you sooner is because of the heat and humidity. Mornings a fairly pleasant right now, but the afternoons are still in the ninety degree range.
Hope this helps.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I said I would get back to you fine folks about the Bench Dog 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 purchased from Rockler. So far I have only been able to get the 4 1/2 fettled some and a test run. They are heavy compared to Stanley, Sargent, and Union. They have thick blades like Millers Falls in the neighborhood of 1/8 of an inch. Did a test run with white oak and this plane did a good job at taking .003 of an inch shavings on all four sides of the board without much pressure from behind. I would guess the weight of the tool helped in that area. If you don't like heavy tools don't get these planes. I personally don't mind the weight. I like these planes.
The reason I didn't get back to you sooner is because of the heat and humidity. Mornings a fairly pleasant right now, but the afternoons are still in the ninety degree range.
Hope this helps.

Good to hear! I don't own a Bench Dog plane, but I visited a Rockler store and handled several: great deal of heft, and the planes appeared very well finished. I used the edge of one plane to act as a flat edge, and the soles appeared to be flat. The blade is thick, and the frogs were well seated. In the end, it is how a plane performs and the price you can buy it for, that count, so it sounds as if the stars aligned correctly for you!

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

Since the Chinese versions sold at Woodcraft now cost the same as or very near the price of LN and Veritas the Indian knock offs are the next alternative. I bet WC is disappointed choosing a Chinese supplier, nobody wants a knockoff when you can get the real McCoy for the same price. Score one for Rockler in the cheap knockoff battle. Kinda sad both turned their backs on North American companies to become middle-men for off shore junk.


Just my opinion, YMMV:

I can buy them for about 40% of the price of LN and / or Veritas. I had a number of these Chinese tools and only one made it to my son, the low angle jack. The shoulder plane, the two block planes and the chisels all found their way to the local auction website. From personal experience, and having lived and worked in China, will say this: they'll copy anything if they can get away with it. Also the first time you order from them they'll go all out to deliver a good product, by the time you order for the third time they try to get away with some cheaper version, being this in finish or materials used or skipping some manufacturing process. One local firm got burned badly, ordered some engines, first lot was perfect so they ordered a hunderd and they were not too bad, then ordered another thousand and they were junk.

From the age of three kids get taught not to speak their mind and also to try to advance themselves by any means available to them, lying a big part of it.

All my tools went after I had open heart surgery and expected never to be able to take up woodwork again.

Anyway with building a new house I need to do some tasks myself as I cannot trust the builders to do it properly so I have a chance to buy it all again.

Presently I have a Stanley UK #3 (which is not good enough for smoothing), a Stanley Four Square 5 1/4 which works fine for its purpose and am considering a Clifton #3. Just bought some Ashley Iles chisels. With arthritis I am giving block planes a pass. Some Veritas clamping gear is finding my way.

I had a very hard think about a very nice, ready to use and in orignal state, Stanley orange frog 5 1/4 corrugated but gave it a pass as I do not like a corrugated sole on trimming the edge of a door, the sole does not agree with me. It may go to a collector, after all it is the hardest of all the Stanleys to find, especially with the orange frog.


50 years ago the same issue was happening with Japan and their cars were not near the quality of the European cars, I remember working on one of them. There were also people who not, under any circumstance, buy anything Japanese due to their war activities. Not much different from what is happening today.

[Wei Yang]

Any more experience with these? I'm looking at the Bench Dog #4. Obviously it's not going to be as good as a LV and I currently don't have the time for the buy-old-stanley-and-restore route. Is it good enough compared to the other ~$100 planes?

[Tony Zaffuto]

Any more experience with these? I'm looking at the Bench Dog #4. Obviously it's not going to be as good as a LV and I currently don't have the time for the buy-old-stanley-and-restore route. Is it good enough compared to the other ~$100 planes?

Out of the box, maybe not equal, but there are very few planes that cannot be fettled into superior performance. I don't any more planes, but looking over the Bench Dogs, I found them well made, with flat soles, using the corner edge of another plane to check for flatness. Of course, I couldn't knock the plane down to check the frog fit, nor could I test the blade for edge retention, but perhaps someone here will buy one and give a full report.

By the way, Bridge City Tools are now made in the Pacific rim, yet there doesn't appear to be a wrath of quality questions about their wares!