Sawstop accidental safety trip

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

Well, I joined the idiot club. I accidently set off the brake on the Sawstop today. I was sneaking up on the cut for a rabbet cut and was using my combo square to help adjust the height of the blade. Of course, I was in a hurry and brought the METAL square over before the blade had come to a complete stop:

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I was impressed. I could here the brake fire through my hearing protectors.

While the blade was moving slow enough, it most likely was not damaged, I decided not to take the chance and I am going to replace it.

I like to think of it as $150 fine for being in a hurry.

[Ted Prinz]

Ummm. So you were in coast down? Bummer.

[Ben Rivel]

Oh man, that stinks. What brand was the blade? Can you send it back to the manufacturer and see if they might be able to repair it?

[Mike Henderson]

I did exactly the same thing. I was using a rule to adjust the fence and touched the blade before it came to a complete stop. It was barely moving. Didn't hurt my blade at all - only had to replace the brake.

Mike

[Neil Gaskin]

Welcome to the club. Membership is free but the self imposed fine is mandatory.

When we first had ours we trips twice in the few month. Neither involving flesh. Both with almost new Forrest blades. One was the replacement for the first.

I called forrest and no dice on the repair.

Rule in our shop is you sign the blade and hang it on the wall.

[Frank Pratt]

Me too. I did it cutting a board with some graphite cloth glued to it. Stupid, stupid. No drama at all, just a little thunk, the blade disappeared & the saw shut down. Blade was not repairable; 2 tooth missing, with part of the steel disc below one of them torn off. Lesson learned.

[Pat Barry]

Question for Sawstop owners. How many times are you willing to pay the $150 fine? Has anyone yet disconnected the safety feature?

[Robert Engel]

$150?? Wow, that's an expensive mistake, isn't it? Curiously, I have yet to see a post about someone's finger being saved.

I have a friend who works in a cabinet shop and he told me so far every time the SS has fired it has been for something other than a finger. The cut a lot of laminate and he thinks some types of laminate trigger the safety feature but they don't know why. Happens 2-3 times a year

So they keep 2 spare cartridges on the shelf. Talked to the owner said the savings on insurance aren't enough to pay for the cartridges. Don't know if that is really true but he did ask me if I wanted to buy it. And that was when the cartridges were $85.

[Kurt Kintner]

I'll pay it every time if it keeps me out of the hospital.... $150 ?? Chicken feed ....

[Eric Rimel]

We've had about 6 trips in 8 years....that I know of. Two involved flesh. One was wet material. One was someone cutting a salvaged veneered desktop down. It had a foil veneer backing. The other three are mysteries. Nobody admits to them. We figure they were facilities guys using the saws without permission. The main power switches are now locked.

[Mike Heidrick]

Curiously, I have yet to see a post about someone's finger being saved.

Well count me as your first then. Saved me 12/23/2014. 5hp ICS. I was just using the RK and stuck left thumb into blade while pushing plywood through the blade. I now use overbade guard absolutely whenever I can.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/ss3_zps76460908.jpg

[Alan Schwabacher]

If the trip happened while the blade was spinning slowly, it seems very unlikely that there was significant damage to the blade. You probably didn't hit the teeth any harder than if you'd cut something. Most of the blade damaging energy comes from the spinning blade. Your aluminum block doesn't even look distorted.

[glenn bradley]

I did mine cutting some UHMW material that I had saved from the trash at work. Turned out it was static-dissipating UHMW; boy I really saved some money by digging that stuff out of the trash ;-) Like many misfires, totally my fault. the pieces were part of a packing frame for electronic equipment so I should have figured. As soon as it went thump . . . I knew what happened. Unlike any other insurance I have, the cost here is well worth the benefit IMHO.

[Ben Rivel]

Havent tripped mine yet, though I havent had the saw long. Any risk of a false trip is worth it to me for my safety. Just for reference: a new brake cartridge is $69 (LINK (https://www.amazon.com/SawStop-TSBC-10R2-Cartridge-10-Inch-Blades/dp/B001G9MGZQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1478877137&sr=8-1&keywords=sawstop+brake+cartridge)) and a new Forrest WWII is $95 from AcmeTools when they have their regular 15% coupon out. Pricey IF it goes off on you yea, but many people have never had one "accidentally" go off and many have had their fingers saved from them going off when it wasn't and accident.

[Prashun Patel]

"Question for Sawstop owners. How many times are you willing to pay the $150 fine?"

I've paid it twice so far (confounded Incra miter fence!!!). On the face of it, I feel like it's an expensive way to learn. But I can tell you from first hand experience, each time it has happened, I think "I am GLAD to pay it." At the moment, given that something far more serious COULD have happened, it feels like a bargain. I'm not a rational economist in front of the saw.

[Mike Henderson]

Question for Sawstop owners. How many times are you willing to pay the $150 fine? Has anyone yet disconnected the safety feature?
I had a shop accident with a router and wound up with a $1,000 emergency room bill (and all they did was sew me up!). I had a SawStop accident where my thumb got into the blade and I put a band-aid on my thumb (my thumb looked about like Mike Heidrick's thumb in the picture above).

I only had one trip where I hit the blade with a rule and triggered the brake (in maybe 10 years). Didn't damage my saw blade but I had to buy a new brake.

So count me as one who will gladly pay the cost of a false trip so that the saw is able to save my fingers when I make a mistake. If I paid $150 for a false trip once a year I'd still consider it a bargain.

It all gets down to how valuable you consider your fingers to be.

Mike

[glenn bradley]

"Question for Sawstop owners. How many times are you willing to pay the $150 fine?"

Unfortunately Saw Stop threads become polarized and not often due to the technology itself. I am happy to go on record as being perfectly happy with the fact that if I make a mistake I will trip the blade. My current score must put the misfire in the many-decimal-points of a percent of the cuts I have made. The possibility of what happens if I get my pinkie in the wrong place cushions any cost of a self induced misfire. If I was an incredibly slow learner I might feel differently . . . also I should probably change passtimes :)

There are cuts that I use override for. There are cuts that I will use override to assure that a misfire will not happen and then continue to make with confidence. Like a blade guard or any other safety device, proper use (including not using them) assure event-free shop time.

[Robert Engel]

Well count me as your first then. Saved me 12/23/2014. Wow that wold have been a horrible Christmas, dude!

Hope you're more careful with your bandsaw and miter saw. :eek: Please don't be offended, but putting a hand in a spinning blade is pretty hard to do if your mind is engaged and you have thought about the cut prior to pushing the wood.

IME in the real world, kickback is a much more common and possible dangerous way to get hurt, which a SS will not prevent, btw.

I approach EVERY machine and EVERY cut with safety in mind and constantly aware of where my hands are.

Also a lot has to do with newbies operating machines. Other things like dull blades and underpowered machines which increase feed pressure are more important, even than blade guards and blade brakes.

It boils down to respecting the machine, not fearing it.

[Frederick Skelly]

I don't have one. But accident or not, $150 looks like a small price to pay for the insurance. I have never been in an ER that didn't cost me at least $500 out of pocket (and like Mike, I've paid far more). Ok, it stinks to pay $150 for something you could avoid. But on the day you need it, I think it's like that credit card ad used to say - "priceless".

[Ben Rivel]

I hate how these threads always also go in the direction of whether or not the safety feature it work it. There is another huge factor that lead me to purchase one and that was that SawStop's table saws are simple a better fit and finish than any other lower or similarly priced saw from any other brand. Anyone that has bought one and set one up and compared it to any other table saw they've owned or used will attest to that. Even if there were no safety flesh detecting mechanism in the saw I still would have paid more just for a better and nicer product.

[Roger Feeley]

If the trip happened while the blade was spinning slowly, it seems very unlikely that there was significant damage to the blade. You probably didn't hit the teeth any harder than if you'd cut something. Most of the blade damaging energy comes from the spinning blade. Your aluminum block doesn't even look distorted.

Alan, Sawstop tech support tells me that spin-down trips are the worst for getting the blade and brake off. Because there is very little kinetic energy, the blade doesn't dig into the brake and the spring in the brake remains compressed more than it would with a full speed trip.

You are probably right that the carbides may have survived the trip. But they may not survive removal.

That said, I had a trip and my blade guy was able to replace a couple of tips on my blade and get it going again. I'm still using it.

[Mike Henderson]

Please don't be offended, but putting a hand in a spinning blade is pretty hard to do if your mind is engaged and you have thought about the cut prior to pushing the wood.
That's just not true. People make mistakes. People that have 40 years of experience working with table saws. We hear it over and over, including people who post things here.

Mike

[Wayne Jolly]

I have read that some of you accidentally fired the brake by touching it with some sort of metal before the blade was completely stopped. I guess the keyword here is **completely**. So I was wondering, if the blade is completely stopped and you bring a steel rule up to the blade, would anything happen if, for whatever reason, you moved the blade by hand?

Wayne

[Ben Rivel]

I have read that some of you accidentally fired the brake by touching it with some sort of metal before the blade was completely stopped. I guess the keyword here is **completely**. So I was wondering, if the blade is completely stopped and you bring a steel rule up to the blade, would anything happen if, for whatever reason, you moved the blade by hand?

WayneIve moved mine by hand when it the main power was on and the brake doesnt fire. The saw knows when its in coast down after the motor is turned off and thats why itll fire.

[Mark Blatter]

I bought a SS about a year to 18 months ago. I have been very careful not to trigger it by cutting something bad. If in doubt, I would bypass the safety feature. About a week ago, I was finishing up a project and decided I needed a 4" x 1" x 1/16" piece of aluminum. I grabbed a small length of angle, set the fence and started to cut. Immediately the brake triggered and I was left standing there with my mouth open. Here is my 'old' brake and the blade. I was able to remove the blade from the break easily, with the real challenge getting the entire assembly off the saw in the first place.

Visually the blade looks fine. I have not used it since the brake trigger as I just don't know if it was damaged. My thought is to send it in to get sharpened and have it inspected. I circled in red where the blade impacted and stuck in the brake. Thoughts on that?

This taught me again, how important it is to engage brain every time before engaging hands.

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[Pat Barry]

I don't have one. But accident or not, $150 looks like a small price to pay for the insurance. I have never been in an ER that didn't cost me at least $500 out of pocket (and like Mike, I've paid far more). Ok, it stinks to pay $150 for something you could avoid. But on the day you need it, I think it's like that credit card ad used to say - "priceless".
While no one would argue that $150 is pretty cheap price to pay for a finger these days, I still wonder if users become frustrated with false fails and then disable the feature. Bigger issue for home users than commercial operators I suspect.

[ken carroll]

Seems like the grrripper achieves the same end - that of protecting the fingers, but at no cost to the blade.

[Ben Rivel]

Seems like the grrripper achieves the same end - that of protecting the fingers, but at no cost to the blade.I use those too. When Im making a cut that requires me to remove the overarm dust collecting guard. Who says one shouldnt double up or triple up on their safety layers/measures?

[mreza Salav]

While no one would argue that $150 is pretty cheap price to pay for a finger these days, I still wonder if users become frustrated with false fails and then disable the feature. Bigger issue for home users than commercial operators I suspect.

You can't disable it permanently unless you make major changes to the saw (change all the electrical and do a direct wire to the motor). Each time you want to disable the brake you have to hold a key for 5 seconds after you turn on the saw and as soon as you stop the saw that "disable" will reset.

[Thomas Pender]

The way i understand it, the metal square must have been conducting electric current potential from your body. For example, if the square was plastic, nothing should have happened. Or, if you were wearing an insulting glove as you handle the metal square it should not have tripped. On the other hand, the statistics are awesome. The table saw industry is a $400 million industry that creates $2 billion in injuries per year. I too believe the fine is worth it - can you imagine just the deductible for an ER visit? The societal costs are huge proportionally because we transfer the costs amongst all health insurance policy holders. Turning off the safety aspect of the saw seems like jumping out of a plane without a reserve parachute. The main might deploy but it really sucks if it does not.

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

The way i understand it, the metal square must have been conducting electric current potential from your body. For example, if the square was plastic, nothing should have happened. Or, if you were wearing an insulting glove as you handle the metal square it should not have tripped. On the other hand, the statistics are awesome. The table saw industry is a $400 million industry that creates $2 billion in injuries per year. I too believe the fine is worth it - can you imagine just the deductible for an ER visit? The societal costs are huge proportionally because we transfer the costs amongst all health insurance policy holders. Turning off the safety aspect of the saw seems like jumping out of a plane without a reserve parachute. The main might deploy but it really sucks if it does not.


Not quite. The safety system does not require a path to ground to trigger it. It works off a capacitance measurement on the blade. Bringing any conducting material (grounded or unground) in contact with the spinning blade (or most likely within microns the blade) will cause it to trip. So wet wood or foil backed wood or a square being help by an insulated glove will cause it trip.

[Larry Frank]

I have tripped it on my Incra miter gauge like others and feel pretty stupid. However, I will pay whatever is needed for my safety.

No matter what is said in these threads, there are SawStoppers and Non-SawStoppers. Two sides of the issue kind of like politics. One can argue forever and not change someone's mind. So...why even try.

I love my Grippers and use them on my Sawstop. I have arthritis and have had extensive surgery on both wrists and they make things much easier for me.

[Mike Henderson]

I have read that some of you accidentally fired the brake by touching it with some sort of metal before the blade was completely stopped. I guess the keyword here is **completely**. So I was wondering, if the blade is completely stopped and you bring a steel rule up to the blade, would anything happen if, for whatever reason, you moved the blade by hand?

Wayne
If the blade is fully stopped, you can touch it with anything and the lights will show if the brake would fire if you tried to cut it. So let's say you have some wet wood, maybe pressure treated wood that's not completely dry yet. While the blade is not spinning, move the wood up until it touches the blade and look at the lights on your control (where you turn the saw on). If you get a red light, the brake would fire.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

While no one would argue that $150 is pretty cheap price to pay for a finger these days, I still wonder if users become frustrated with false fails and then disable the feature. Bigger issue for home users than commercial operators I suspect.
Why would you buy the saw if you were going to turn the safety feature off. And in any case, you can only turn it off per start. So if you wanted to bypass the safety feature, every time you went to turn the saw on, you'd have to go through the bypass operation.

Mike

[Pat Barry]

If the blade is fully stopped, you can touch it with anything and the lights will show if the brake would fire if you tried to cut it. So let's say you have some wet wood, maybe pressure treated wood that's not completely dry yet. While the blade is not spinning, move the wood up until it touches the blade and look at the lights on your control (where you turn the saw on). If you get a red light, the brake would fire.

Mike
This is a nice feature I wasn't aware of. Users would do well to spend time practicing with it. As far as disabling it, for home users, I suppose that people may reach a point where they can't afford to do proper maintenance and repair. Let's give an example of a retired person on a fixed income- paying that fine might be too much. I can imagine that could and does happen and we wouldn't hear of it.

[Robert Engel]

Use of push blocks, feather boards is arguably the single most important safety aspect of using a TS. With experience comes reading wood and figuring out how to do a certain cut.

A SS prevents ONE type of injury on ONE machine, which is a good thing.

But -- whoever put their hands or finger in the blade hopefully will step back from ALL his machines and do some serious thinking about safety.

Granted, with a SS, he'll do it with all ten fingers. ;)

[Mike Heidrick]

I made many mistakes. Amongst them I was not using overblade guard too, just the rk. The overblade is on all the time now when it can be. It is another safety device that would have saved me. I encourage even the infalable experts to be careful.

[jerry cousins]

i too did not know about the touching the blade when it is stopped to see if the piece would set off the brake - nice feature. continue to be impressed with the saw.
jerry

[Mike Henderson]

i too did not know about the touching the blade when it is stopped to see if the piece would set off the brake - nice feature. continue to be impressed with the saw.
jerry
Let me clarify my comment. That's what I observed when I touch something like wet wood to the blade. I've never checked with SawStop to verify that it works as I described. I think it does, however.

I was not going to try to cut wet wood and have a brake fire to verify my observation.

Mike

[Simon MacGowen]

This is a nice feature I wasn't aware of. Users would do well to spend time practicing with it. As far as disabling it, for home users, I suppose that people may reach a point where they can't afford to do proper maintenance and repair. Let's give an example of a retired person on a fixed income- paying that fine might be too much. I can imagine that could and does happen and we wouldn't hear of it.

Someone who keeps "breaking" their tools (not necessarily the SawStop brake or blade) should seriously consider if they are having the right pastimes. If I kept dropping and damaging my dovetail saw to the point that I could no longer afford to get it fixed, I would call it a day and deem my woodworking journey done and over.

As a SawStop user (and now owner as well), I have handled the ICS, the professional and lightly the Contractor models, I would say misfires will happen just as accidents (with the saws or other machines) will to those who pay not enough attention. The operation of the SawStop is not different from that of other saws or machines. Obey the proper procedures and the risk of misfires is greatly reduced.

As for fingers saved? Anyone can go to the SawStop site and see all the photos of proof by the endusers. By the way, SawStop will give a new brake cartridge free of charge to those who report an activation due to flesh contact (the brake is handed in and examined by SawStop to confirm that the activation is caused by the contact of a human part).

Each woodworker must decide for themselves whether it makes (any) sense to have a SawStop in their shops. For me -- with a zero saw accident /misfire record (before and after owning the SawStop) and zero kickback history (before and after having access to the riving knife), I love the quality of the saw and the bonus safety feature which is an insurance policy for me. I hope until the day I hang up my woodworking boots, I would not have needed to replace the brake due to contact with my skin. I have been driving and paying auto insurance coverage for 42 years and have never filed an insurance claim. But I do not consider myself wasting tens of thousands of dollars on the policy.

Simon

[jerry cousins]

i tested it - with saw off i touched the blade with a dry piece of wood and the lights stayed green (no red flashing) - then touched it with a tri-square balde and it flashed red - again touched it with wood - green - then put my finger on it and it flashed red.
thanks for the tip
jerry

[Brad Barnhart]

no doubt, a mans safety is crucible, & very important. I don't condemn the fella that thinks he's saving his fingers & no misfires at a $6000 price tag. It still comes back to the fact of getting to know your equipment. I can do just as much, just as safe on my 8" Craftsman w/no guards, as can be done on the ss. But, I know my machine, try to plan my cuts out carefully, & think them through.

It's a proven fact that the ts is one of the most dangerous pieces of equipment in our shops, regardless of its size. But the injuries can be prevented with knowledge, planning, & a little extra time to trust the saw.

[Mike Henderson]

no doubt, a mans safety is crucial, & very important. I don't condemn the fella that thinks he's saving his fingers & no misfires at a $6000 price tag. It still comes back to the fact of getting to know your equipment. I can do just as much, just as safe on my 8" Craftsman w/no guards, as can be done on the ss. But, I know my machine, try to plan my cuts out carefully, & think them through.

It's a proven fact that the ts is one of the most dangerous pieces of equipment in our shops, regardless of its size. But the injuries can be prevented with knowledge, planning, & a little extra time to trust the saw.

Anyone who thinks he will never make a mistake is living in an alternate reality.

Mike

[Gary Cunningham]

Oh man, that stinks. What brand was the blade? Can you send it back to the manufacturer and see if they might be able to repair it?

I asked the guy from Forest about fixing a blade. He said no, a bad idea, and they do not repair saw stopped blades.

[Larry Frank]

The most interesting thing in the thread that Forest will not fix a blade that has been in a Sawstop incident. This is most likely due to liability and difficulty in detecting any damage to the brake joint.

[Chris Fournier]

Anyone who thinks he will never make a mistake is living in an alternate reality.

Mike

As stated I would agree with you Mike but your statement needs some qualification to be useful. We are talking about the use of a tablesaw here and personally when I am using a tablesaw my attention to detail and process goes WAAAAAY up compared to when I am using a hammer. Ironically I am more likely to hurt myself with a less dangerous instrument than the tablesaw because my guard is down and I am not on "high alert".

I don't mean this to be smug but anyone who has set off their SS because they touched the rotating blade with their body or measuring/layout tools really likely should own a SS. It will save them. I just wonder what machine in their shop without this technology will be the one to injure or maim them.

I hope that we all can enjoy woodworking safely for as long as we want to work wood!

[Frederick Skelly]

no doubt, a mans safety is crucible, & very important. I don't condemn the fella that thinks he's saving his fingers & no misfires at a $6000 price tag. It still comes back to the fact of getting to know your equipment. I can do just as much, just as safe on my 8" Craftsman w/no guards, as can be done on the ss. But, I know my machine, try to plan my cuts out carefully, & think them through.

It's a proven fact that the ts is one of the most dangerous pieces of equipment in our shops, regardless of its size. But the injuries can be prevented with knowledge, planning, & a little extra time to trust the saw.

Well Brad, I hear ya. And maybe you're right for you.

In my shop, there's always a chance that my mind might wander for a moment despite my best effort, or that a loud car/truck comes by at the wrong moment and distracts me, or that sawing releases an unexpected stress in the wood causing a bind, etc.

I agree that knowing your machine, proper prep and safe tool operation can reduce the chances. I don't agree that every injury can be prevented. My experience just hasn't seen that.

Does reducing that risk further make a sawstop " worth it"? That's a personal call.

Fred

[Andrew J. Coholic]

No one is infallible. You spend enough hours doing anything, and as safe as you can, you can err and become a statistic.

I am 46. Never had a machinery accident where I was cut. I have about 60,000 plus hours in the shop working daily with industrial machinery. I don't kid myself. It can happen tomorrow.

It cant ever happen to me... only if you never go into the shop.

Thats my opinion...

[Mike Henderson]

As stated I would agree with you Mike but your statement needs some qualification to be useful. We are talking about the use of a tablesaw here and personally when I am using a tablesaw my attention to detail and process goes WAAAAAY up compared to when I am using a hammer. Ironically I am more likely to hurt myself with a less dangerous instrument than the tablesaw because my guard is down and I am not on "high alert".

I don't mean this to be smug but anyone who has set off their SS because they touched the rotating blade with their body or measuring/layout tools really likely should own a SS. It will save them. I just wonder what machine in their shop without this technology will be the one to injure or maim them.

I hope that we all can enjoy woodworking safely for as long as we want to work wood!
We are all human and we all make mistakes. If you think you'll never make a mistake you're living in an alternate reality. No qualifications necessary.

Mike

[The only way you can be sure you'll never make a mistake on a table saw is if you never use a table saw.]

[Ben Rivel]

I asked the guy from Forest about fixing a blade. He said no, a bad idea, and they do not repair saw stopped blades.


The most interesting thing in the thread that Forest will not fix a blade that has been in a Sawstop incident. This is most likely due to liability and difficulty in detecting any damage to the brake joint.Agreed! I did not know that and that sucks. I thought I remembered reading that they used to repair them, so Im wondering if this is something recently they decided not to do anymore.

[Chris Fournier]

Lot's of long time, retired, or dead woodworkers who never put their hands or tools into the path of a moving tablesaw blade Mike.

I've made mistakes on the TS, just none that involved me putting my hands into the blade, I'm not lucky or gifted just informed and careful.

Pieces cut too short twice? Yeah, some of those on record in my shop!

[Mike Henderson]

Lot's of long time, retired, or dead woodworkers who never put their hands or tools into the path of a moving tablesaw blade Mike.

I've made mistakes on the TS, just none that involved me putting my hands into the blade, I'm not lucky or gifted just informed and careful.

Pieces cut too short twice? Yeah, some of those on record in my shop!
Lot's of long time, retired, or dead woodworkers cut their finger off or otherwise incurred serious injury (and I'm sure none of them intended to do so). You can say that you "think" you'll never make a mistake on a table saw that results in injury but anyone who believes he'll never make a mistake is living in an alternate reality.

Mike

[Kevin Groenke]

Question for Sawstop owners. How many times are you willing to pay the $150 fine? Has anyone yet disconnected the safety feature?

We have over two dozen accidental trips since 2005 in our higher ed student shop (+3 legit human contact trips). I wouldn't consider disabling the detection/stopping mechanism.

[Rich Riddle]

Considering it a $150 fine is a good mentality. I fired the Bosch REAXX this year when first using it. Fortunately, the fine for the REAXX is $50 since it doesn't destroy the blade. At least your fingers were safe.

[Simon MacGowen]

Really, the point is not if a TS accident will happen to EVERY woodworker, but TS accidents will 100% happen -- just not to 100% of the woodworkers. Those who count themselves among the group that a TS accident will never happen to them are lucky folks. I have been lucky so far, but I still go for a SawStop.

If statistics means anything, the majority of serious woodworking accidents that require a trip to the ER are from the use of saws (including bandsaws, circular saws and tablesaws). No one will dispute that TS injuries are among the most devastating kind. If brake technology were available to all other kinds of saws and machines, I would be willing to spend the extra $, even though I would continue to observe all the humanly possible safety precaution and measures.

I consider a trigger that would cost you not only the cartridge but also the blade a desirable thing. Like a traffic fine, if it hits you hard in the wallet, it is more deterrent. That's just human (or economics).

Just because some retired, old or dead persons who smoked and never got lung cancer, I would not consider smoking (first hand or second hand safe) for my lungs. Just because folks in the rural areas or farms don't wear their seatbelts, I don't feel safer when I am behind the steering wheel....

I would not push anyone to get a SawStop -- even money is not a factor to them -- nor would I preach that as long as you observe all the safety measures and pay attention when using the TS, you would not be in an accident. The two groups could live happily in their own shops ... until the day an accident strikes, of course.

Simon
P.S. All my local school shops have replaced every saw with a SS (professional model) and some 15 years later, no graduates from the system have come back and sued the school district, saying they were not taught how to use a non-SS safely. I think SS owners and users need not explain or defend their SS decisions any more than a Festool owner who spends 30% to 100% more on the same kind of tool that is available under a different brand.

[Chris Fournier]

Lot's of long time, retired, or dead woodworkers cut their finger off or otherwise incurred serious injury (and I'm sure none of them intended to do so). You can say that you "think" you'll never make a mistake on a table saw that results in injury but anyone who believes he'll never make a mistake is living in an alternate reality.

Mike

Fair enough then Mike, I do not own a SS and I have never been to the Emergency Room to treat a woodworking accident. I am content with my alternate reality.

I would wish the same track record for everyone but know that it is not possible. If the SS prevents you from harm in your shop then I agree that you should be happy to own one! Be safe!

[Martin Wasner]

Shouldn't you test the brake once in a while just to make sure it's not defective?

[Cliff Polubinsky]

The most interesting thing in the thread that Forest will not fix a blade that has been in a Sawstop incident. This is most likely due to liability and difficulty in detecting any damage to the brake joint.

That hasn't been my experience. They repaired one of my blades a few months ago. When I talked to them on the phone I told them it was a Sawstop hit and also included that on the info letter sent with the blade. They didn't have a problem with it.

Cliff

[Brad Barnhart]

If you don't own a ss, & continue to argue the point that the fella who thinks he'll never have a ts accident lives in an alternate reality. In my first post, I didn't say anything about "never" having a ts accident, or the anticipation of one. I'm not going to sit here & tell you I've not made mistakes on the the ts, because I don't see the need to deal with your misinterpretation of my post.

The fact of the matter is, if a feller feels he's safer using a ss, it's ok. His money, his shop. But all it takes is one injury, & it creates a fear of the machine. And that is not an alternate reality. It's reality!

Now, my budget in reality will not allow that kind of money for a saw, so I learn to use my table saw as safely as possible, & get to know what it will do so I can make the decision whether or not to use the ts, or another saw for the job at hand. This reduces injuries, & helps to get the job done safely. In reality.

[Kevin Groenke]

Shouldn't you test the brake once in a while just to make sure it's not defective?

The SawStop system goes through a self-test routine every time the power cycles on. If the cartridge (which contains the microprocessor controlling everything) is defective, the saw will not start. In 10+ years and 30+ cartridges, I recall this happening once and SawStop sent a replacement asap with few questions asked.

[Simon MacGowen]

In addition, in the 15 (or 16?) years since SS was rolled out, no accidents have been attributed to the failure of the SS technology -- that's unless the made-up story that it has happened is believed. I think the technology on the saw is more reliable than many other safety systems that have been around for much longer time (case in point: airbags!).

Simon

[Kevin Groenke]

In addition, in the 15 (or 16?) years since SS was rolled out...

It has been ~11.5 years since actual machines were shipped. I believe the first prototype was publicly shown at IWF in 2000, but several years were then spent trying to license the technology to established manufacturers, then ultimately designing and producing their own saw when established manufacucturers passed (or whatever).

After 3+ years on the pre-order/wait list, we received two of the first 120 saws produced, they were delivered to us in Jan of 2005. Emails with SawStop indicate that the first 20 units were shipped to them from Taiwan in August of 2004. Our saws are still running fine (though we did have to replace a centrifugal last week for $12).

-kg

[Martin Wasner]

The SawStop system goes through a self-test routine every time the power cycles on. If the cartridge (which contains the microprocessor controlling everything) is defective, the saw will not start. In 10+ years and 30+ cartridges, I recall this happening once and SawStop sent a replacement asap with few questions asked.

But how do you really know.....

[andrew whicker]

Maybe it's because I'm new to woodworking, but I feel a lot better working with a table saw than a jointer. Facing a board is no fun.

Is anyone working on a safe stop for jointers?

[Mike Heidrick]

Martin they give a flashing diagnostic light sequence supposedly showing the self test when th efirst switch is flipped. When the light is solid green then you can start the saw with the large paddle. Until the blade is spinning you can touch the blade with your finger or wet wood and the light will flash showing you the blade would have tripped if the blade was spinning. Remove your finger and the light is solid green again.

Again do you truly know what it is doing? I would argue you are honestly just trusting lights and what sawstop is telling you is happening. My saw worked when I needed it though.

[Mike Heidrick]

They make power feeders for BIG jointers which might be a little safer. Euro guards are safer than pork chop jointer guards. I honestly like the tactical feel of resistance of the wood when jointing (I use safety push pads and grippers on my jointer) so i doubt I would use a feeder much. A safer jointer has no cord.

[Robert Engel]

Andrew,

Are you using push blocks? Correctly use of assist devices such as push blocks, push sticks & feather boards, with time you will gain confidence. Although its good to have a healthy respect for a machine, if something is "no fun" then you are lacking confidence or possible using bad technique, because face jointing a board on a jointer should be a very low risk task.

Those who may be lulled in to thinking a SS is a "foolproof" machine that cannot hurt them have not suffered a kickback event.

Plus, as Andrew has illustrated, there are many other machines that can injury you just as bad that have no such technology.

[glenn bradley]

It is interesting how many responses some subjects receive. Saw Stop is certainly a topic that gets a lot of good conversation started. I notice commonly repeated positions and I think that is good for the discussion. Our conversations here broaden our own thinking and act as beginner information for our new folks surfing the forum.

We all have different opinions but, I am never positively effected by an old timer who touts using their saw without safety devices. New folks, please take this with a large grain of salt. Another recurring line of discussion that causes me concern is the belief that tablesaws are more dangerous than other machines. Like the statistics for gun 'accidents', if you remove all the improperly classified occurrences, the number if incidents is not that staggering. Misusing a tool and getting hurt is not an accident ;-)

[Mike Henderson]

Maybe it's because I'm new to woodworking, but I feel a lot better working with a table saw than a jointer. Facing a board is no fun.

Is anyone working on a safe stop for jointers?

I haven't heard of a safety feature for jointers. Regarding facing a board on a jointer, you can make a "device" that will get your hand away from the blades when you're pushing a board through. I'll try to go take a picture of mine and post it.

And to echo Glenn's posting - a safety device, such as is available on SawStop, is valuable and can save you from serious injury. I wish an equivalent safety feature was available for jointers and band saws, which are probably the next two most "dangerous" tools in my shop.

Mike

[Here's a couple of pictures. First shows the push device in "use" and the other shows the underside. It's made from scrap.]

347449347448

[Simon MacGowen]

For facing jointing, the safest approach is to do it with a thickness planer with a sled (up to 13" wide for a bench top kind planer), if moving a board over the cutters is a huge concern. My jointer has been collecting dust and has not been used for several years...time to sell it (when I get the time to list it).

Simon

[Chris Fournier]

I haven't heard of a safety feature for jointers. Regarding facing a board on a jointer, you can make a "device" that will get your hand away from the blades when you're pushing a board through. I'll try to go take a picture of mine and post it.

And to echo Glenn's posting - a safety device, such as is available on SawStop, is valuable and can save you from serious injury. I wish an equivalent safety feature was available for jointers and band saws, which are probably the next two most "dangerous" tools in my shop.

Mike

[Here's a couple of pictures. First shows the push device in "use" and the other shows the underside. It's made from scrap.]

347449347448

Are those four metal fasteners showing on the bottom of your jointer pusher Mike? I use pushers as well but glue them up so there is no metal, a bit safer and easier on the knives if things go south. Regardless pushers and the like keep us away from cutters and that's good!

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Well count me as your first then. Saved me 12/23/2014. 5hp ICS. I was just using the RK and stuck left thumb into blade while pushing plywood through the blade. I now use overbade guard absolutely whenever I can.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/ss3_zps76460908.jpg

Thanks for the testimonial. You are the first I have listen!

[Mike Henderson]

Are those four metal fasteners showing on the bottom of your jointer pusher Mike? I use pushers as well but glue them up so there is no metal, a bit safer and easier on the knives if things go south. Regardless pushers and the like keep us away from cutters and that's good!
Only the two that attach the handle are screws. The holes in the piece at the back do not have any screws in them - it's glued on.

I don't worry much about the two screws that are in the handle because I'd have to cut through the wood for them to reach the blade.

Mike

[Ken Krawford]

This thread piqued my curiosity. I turned my SS on and waited for the green light. I then experimented with varying degrees of pressure and touched the blade in different locations. It seemed that approaching a tooth on the blade from a 45 degree angle failed to turn on the red trigger light. Other parts of the blade required varying degrees of contact pressure to trigger.

[Steve Demuth]

No engineered system is verifiably 100% failure proof of course, but Sawstop's s clearly very good. So for that matter are most airbag systems. The Takata recall shows the potentially a systematic flaw to persist in the system, but overall, even counting Takata, the failure rate for airbags is very small.

[jack duren]

Lot's of long time, retired, or dead woodworkers cut their finger off or otherwise incurred serious injury (and I'm sure none of them intended to do so). You can say that you "think" you'll never make a mistake on a table saw that results in injury but anyone who believes he'll never make a mistake is living in an alternate reality.

Mike

Agree.......

[mreza Salav]

This thread piqued my curiosity. I turned my SS on and waited for the green light. I then experimented with varying degrees of pressure and touched the blade in different locations. It seemed that approaching a tooth on the blade from a 45 degree angle failed to turn on the red trigger light. Other parts of the blade required varying degrees of contact pressure to trigger.

It was explained in this forum years ago by Steve Gass (the inventor/owner) that it works based on two different methods to detect flesh contact.
One (capacitive) is, for example, when you touch the side of a teflon coated blade. If you touch the sharp corner of a tooth with a dry hand it doesn't detect it unless your hand has enough moisture or it cuts a little bit of skin to get moisture to detect it.

[Chris Fournier]

Only the two that attach the handle are screws. The holes in the piece at the back do not have any screws in them - it's glued on.

I don't worry much about the two screws that are in the handle because I'd have to cut through the wood for them to reach the blade.

Mike

Well that makes perfect sense to me Mike, thanks for clarifying your picture.

[jack duren]

If you don't own a ss, & continue to argue the point that the fella who thinks he'll never have a ts accident lives in an alternate reality. In my first post, I didn't say anything about "never" having a ts accident, or the anticipation of one. I'm not going to sit here & tell you I've not made mistakes on the the ts, because I don't see the need to deal with your misinterpretation of my post.

The fact of the matter is, if a feller feels he's safer using a ss, it's ok. His money, his shop. But all it takes is one injury, & it creates a fear of the machine. And that is not an alternate reality. It's reality!

Now, my budget in reality will not allow that kind of money for a saw, so I learn to use my table saw as safely as possible, & get to know what it will do so I can make the decision whether or not to use the ts, or another saw for the job at hand. This reduces injuries, & helps to get the job done safely. In reality.

A SawStop should not give you any sense of security. You should operate any table saw the same with or without the technology..

Hobby woodworkers have a choice whether to use a table saw or not. That is your choice. A professional does not, it's their job...

[glenn bradley]

4500+ views. It's amazing how some topics fire up the conversation.

[jack duren]

I try not to get involved but there are just some..........

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I try not to get involved but there are just some..........

Sometimes different viewpoints are interesting. In a respectful way, its all good.

For me, it was a few other decisions... as a working shop, always having employees, I often care more about their well being and safety than my own. I know it would kill me to have one of my guys have a serious accident. And anything I can do to help prevent that is worth it in my opinion.

Another issue, is I have two young sons. Two sons who, like I was with my dad, will probably want to hang around the shop some day and start working/helping/making stuff.

WHen I was 12 or 13, (over 30 years ago) and barely tall enough to comfortably reach over one of the Unisaws we had in the shop, my father just let me go so to speak. Minimal instruction, quick safety talk and I was using the table saw. I learned over the years how to use all the shop machinery safely. But, it scares the hell out of me thinking some day I will have to see my own boys start using the equipment in my shop. And its not that far away... I will be sure to teach them as best as I can - but it will certainly make me feel somewhat more at ease knowing that extra measure of protection is there. And I wont be too worried about a cartidge or blade loss, if it happens.

[jack duren]

It's not the view point that's the problem. It's the silly view points.

It's really isn't an option in a professional shop. The cost of an injury out weighs the cost of a hospital.

[Roger Feeley]

I got my guy to fix an Amana combination blade once after a trip.

I've had two trips. Both my stupid fault.

[Nick Decker]

Hope the idiot club has room for one more. Set off the brake this morning for the first time. I use an Incra sled, with one of their miter gauges mounted to it. I wanted to make some bevel cuts using just the miter gauge without the sled, so I removed the gauge. What I forgot to do was readjust the fence position. With the blade tilted to the left for the bevel, it wasn't as obvious that the fence would contact the blade.

Surprised the hell out of me, but wasn't as earth shaking as I had imagined. I guess I was expecting an impact like that to make the saw jump off the floor or something. Made a very tiny ding in the aluminum fence, but I had to look very closely to find it. All is well except for my wallet.

[Jim Colombo]

they fixed mine

[Alan Lightstone]

I've triggered mine twice. Neither one with flesh. The most expensive was the first, where I messed up a Freud dado set. It was easy to get repaired, though the outside diameter was slightly less on the repaired blades, and so I eventually got rid of it.

That being said, I'm a true believer in the technology.

[Roger Marty]

Can you elaborate what can go wrong when jointing? Even when face jointing, it seems "safe" to me.

[Mike Henderson]

Can you elaborate what can go wrong when jointing? Even when face jointing, it seems "safe" to me.

I don't know how jointer accidents happen, but I know they changed the design of the part of the jointer that holds the blades in an effort to reduce injury when accidents happen. People were losing their hands in jointer accidents in the old design.

So jointer accidents happen but I, for one, have never looked into how they happen. But you can bet, if an accident can happen, someone will have an accident.

Mike

[Roger Marty]

Interesting. Well I'm using a 1930s Boice Crane jointer. It is not obvious to me why keeping your hand on top of the wood as you move the face over the blades is a No No. Yeah, keep your fingers away from the edge for sure.

[mreza Salav]

jointers can cause kick back especially when joining short boards; this happens when the front edge of the boards tips down in the gap between the tables when moving the wood and that causes a kick back which can have nasty consequences (I had a near close call once for jointing a board too short; was using push pad but was a scary experience).

[Charles Taylor]

I don't know how jointer accidents happen, but I know they changed the design of the part of the jointer that holds the blades in an effort to reduce injury when accidents happen. People were losing their hands in jointer accidents in the old design.

As I understand it, with the old square cutterhead design, there was enough of a gap between the edge of the infeed table and the cutterhead that if a knife caught a fingertip, it could quickly draw in the operator's entire hand before he could react. The round "safety cutterhead" keeps the gap smaller, which does not prevent an injury but lessens its severity. Usually.


Interesting. Well I'm using a 1930s Boice Crane jointer. It is not obvious to me why keeping your hand on top of the wood as you move the face over the blades is a No No. Yeah, keep your fingers away from the edge for sure.

As pointed out above, a jointer can kick back, especially with smaller stock. Can happen on the leading edge or at a knot. The rule of thumb (or the rule of five fingers) is to consider where your hand would go if the stock suddenly vanished from beneath it.