Fast cheap way to turn miniature balusters?

[Jim Underwood]

I need a fast cheap way to turn about 500 miniature balusters. They'll be about 3" tall by 1/4" square.

Got any suggestions?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Buy them online.

[Brian Kent]

Stick a little lathe in from of the TV and watch movies.

[Steve Peterson]

Ebay and Amazon appear to have 12 packs for about $6. Not sure if you can find bulk prices or even any style with 500 in stock. craftparts.com sells wooden spindles for around $0.24 each but not in the sizes you are looking for. woodcrafter.com and americanwoodcrafterssupply.com both have 3.5" by 0.5" spindles with 0.25" tenons for about $0.30 each in bulk.

What are you making that needs so many balusters? Could you just use segments of 0.25" dowels?

Steve

[Jim Underwood]

The client is making a custom dollhouse. It's going to have a lot of stairs.
The baluster profile will be similar to this Enkeboll baluster without the carving:
http://www.enkebolldesigns.com/product_p/blr-arn-xx-6xxx.htm
So you see that I cannot simply order them...

[Marvin Hasenak]

For this project, you can skip the fast and cheap requirements. My first recommendation is to research "Tom Walden miniature maker", you might want to buy his DVD of instructions, recommended but not necessary. The tricks are really worth the cost of the DVD's. Like using a precision drill press to make a wood milling machine to make fancy cabriole legs for doll house furniture.

You can do without a duplicator, but I wouldn't. I would start with a PSI duplicator, it is basically a copy of an Anker Duplicator, but they are no longer made. Walden used Taig lathe setups with Anker duplicators and brass cut out designs. I stumbled on one of his lathes a few years ago, did not need it then or now, but it has been a fun toy to play with.

When you fall off the deep end of making miniatures, you might want to consider taking one of his classes.

[roger oldre]

these are a little larger than yours. They take about a minute@. yours could possibly take less time. I asked in another forum for particulars. Type of wood plays a huge part in the small stuff. Most copiers are pretty clunky and take a lot of sanding. these would be best run in one direction with an appropriately sharpened cutter. similar to this
https://youtu.be/5PycgbO4tK0

[Jim Underwood]

For this project, you can skip the fast and cheap requirements. My first recommendation is to research "Tom Walden miniature maker", you might want to buy his DVD of instructions, recommended but not necessary. The tricks are really worth the cost of the DVD's. Like using a precision drill press to make a wood milling machine to make fancy cabriole legs for doll house furniture.

You can do without a duplicator, but I wouldn't. I would start with a PSI duplicator, it is basically a copy of an Anker Duplicator, but they are no longer made. Walden used Taig lathe setups with Anker duplicators and brass cut out designs. I stumbled on one of his lathes a few years ago, did not need it then or now, but it has been a fun toy to play with.

When you fall off the deep end of making miniatures, you might want to consider taking one of his classes.

No fast and cheap. Oh well. Can't compete with the Chinese... who can sell simple little balusters this size for pennies.
I keep wondering how they do it? They surely don't turn 'em by hand.

I'm tempted to make or buy a duplicator and see if a spindle this small will hold up. I've turned a few bobbins about this size, and I can tell you it's REALLY EASY to break 'em...

[roger oldre]

Your going to believe what you want regardless of your options.

[Jim Underwood]

Your going to believe what you want regardless of your options.

:D
HA HA HA!
You wouldn't be the first to say something like that to me. But I'm here to tell you that we learn nothing by staying comfortable. If we push the boundaries, we learn what does and does not work- and come up with solutions. There's quite a bit of evidence of that right here on this forum.
I've been told I shouldn't do things the way I did them, but the results spoke for themselves.

[Scott Hackler]

You could have a shaper blade ground to the profile you need and tack it onto some bar stock for a shaper technique. Be even faster with that shaper blade mounted in a cross vise on the lathe, where you just have to advance the blade into the blank. Would be super quick to.

[roger oldre]

Scott that is the way they used to turn bowling pins : full profile knives counter rotating to the workpeice. the problem is longitudinal grain. When the cutter gets a bite between the winter growth and blows it apart it could be pretty spectacular! not only the wood chunks flying every where but the knives would come loose on occasion and go through the guard shield. there would be remnants of the like stuck in the ceiling of the turning area! Lots of wasted material and high attrition. A shaped scraper would leave a rough finish that would require lots of sanding and being so thin I doubt they would even be round once you got them smooth, not to mention the chipped corners at the transition from round to square. For these small pieces a curtain knife lathe would work well but the tooling for such a short run would be expensive.

Jim my comment was about "No fast and cheap". It has been my life to make not only fast and cheap possible but include quality as well in many areas not just turning. Often the case is that people resign to the beleife that there cant be a better way. For my fathers entire 60+ years as a wood turner he ran modified metal lathes as duplicating wood lathes. It would be quite easy to build a duplicator that would fit you lathe for the run of your parts inexpensively. many of the add on duplicators and especially the ones where a movable pedestal with a cutting tool is pushed around provide a rough finish cut. This is because if the tool is ground with proper reliefe to allow a good cut the tool self feeds. Done properly you shouldn't loose very many from breaking and sanding can be held to a minimum. Your greatest time loss will be chucking and unchucking parts. The lever actin tailstock solves that though.

[Geoff Crimmins]

Have you checked to to see if there are any businesses that offer a this service for dollhouse builders? If there is, it might be that they could do faster and cheaper than you can. I see from your message that you have a Carvewright. I also see that Carvewright sells a rotary attachment that looks like it would probably work for what you want to make. That sounds like it would be a fairly quick and easy way to produce identical pieces of high quality. Or is there a suitable material for having them 3D printed? It's also possible that they could be made using a small ornamental mill, like the one from Legacy, or the Craftsman Router Crafter. I vaguely recall seeing a similar machine made for decorating pen blanks that might be the right size for your pieces. With the right cutter, maybe they could be made on a CNC metal lathe. Of course you could turn them by hand on your wood lathe, but I expect that would take too long to be cost effective. Although you might really get the hang of it after the first 100 and be able to turn the rest fairly quickly. I'm just throwing out ideas in the hopes that one of them is actually a good one. :)

--Geoff

[Jamie Buxton]

How 'bout using a duplicator on your lathe, but with a rotary tool instead of a the usual turning chisel? At your size, the rotary tool could be a Dremel. It'd be like a CNC lathe, but without the computer. The point about the rotary cutting tool is that it bites off a smaller chunk of wood than a turning chisel, and is less likely to break the baluster.

And maybe you don't need a formal duplicator, just a template for your Dremel to follow.

[Frederick Skelly]

Have you checked to to see if there are any businesses that offer a this service for dollhouse builders? If there is, it might be that they could do faster and cheaper than you can. I see from your message that you have a Carvewright. I also see that Carvewright sells a rotary attachment that looks like it would probably work for what you want to make. That sounds like it would be a fairly quick and easy way to produce identical pieces of high quality. Or is there a suitable material for having them 3D printed? It's also possible that they could be made using a small ornamental mill, like the one from Legacy, or the Craftsman Router Crafter. I vaguely recall seeing a similar machine made for decorating pen blanks that might be the right size for your pieces. With the right cutter, maybe they could be made on a CNC metal lathe. Of course you could turn them by hand on your wood lathe, but I expect that would take too long to be cost effective. Although you might really get the hang of it after the first 100 and be able to turn the rest fairly quickly. I'm just throwing out ideas in the hopes that one of them is actually a good one. :)

--Geoff

I had some similar thoughts - this seems like a job for your carvewright.

[Tom Albrecht]

Just curious, how much did you quote the client?

[Jim Underwood]

Scott that is the way they used to turn bowling pins : full profile knives counter rotating to the workpeice. the problem is longitudinal grain. When the cutter gets a bite between the winter growth and blows it apart it could be pretty spectacular! not only the wood chunks flying every where but the knives would come loose on occasion and go through the guard shield. there would be remnants of the like stuck in the ceiling of the turning area! Lots of wasted material and high attrition. A shaped scraper would leave a rough finish that would require lots of sanding and being so thin I doubt they would even be round once you got them smooth, not to mention the chipped corners at the transition from round to square. For these small pieces a curtain knife lathe would work well but the tooling for such a short run would be expensive.

I had the same thought that I could grind a single knife from some HSS knife stock (I work in a cabinet shop where we grind our own knives and make molding), but thought it would be too hard to keep these small pieces from just splintering.
What is a curtain knife lathe?



Jim my comment was about "No fast and cheap". It has been my life to make not only fast and cheap possible but include quality as well in many areas not just turning. Often the case is that people resign to the beleife that there cant be a better way. For my fathers entire 60+ years as a wood turner he ran modified metal lathes as duplicating wood lathes. It would be quite easy to build a duplicator that would fit you lathe for the run of your parts inexpensively. many of the add on duplicators and especially the ones where a movable pedestal with a cutting tool is pushed around provide a rough finish cut. This is because if the tool is ground with proper reliefe to allow a good cut the tool self feeds. Done properly you shouldn't loose very many from breaking and sanding can be held to a minimum. Your greatest time loss will be chucking and unchucking parts. The lever actin tailstock solves that though.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought you meant that I should resign myself to limitations. I have to admit that made me bow up just a tad for a bit, and make me determined to find a better way....
Good to know we're actually on the same page.

Are you saying I shouldn't buy a duplicator? Are there duplicators on the market that don't self feed? My client says he'll buy me one if it'll help.

Tell me the basics of building a duplicator that would fit my lathe. What is the main thing that keeps it from self feeding? Screw advance?

To answer another person's question, I have not quoted the client a price. I'm still exploring ways to do this.
If I could find an outfit that makes this stuff on a regular basis, I'd get a quote. My buddy Hugh Patrick over in Barnesville who has a commercial duplicating lathe can't go that small. And the one quote I got from a prominent outfit north of here quoted a price of $53 each, for a grand total of $26,500.00.:eek: That'd be a pretty expensive dollhouse, no matter how upscale it is...

As for the CarveWright, it's so slow that I'd never consider making spindles, especially turned spindles on it. If it were carved spindles, I'd say, perhaps one or two, and then cast duplicates of it.

There were two other thoughts I had about this.
The first is that I should try (as suggested) a rotary cutter of some sort, either my dremel, or a small router to follow a pattern.
The second was to purchase or fabricate a square drive collet or chuck for the headstock and tailstock.
It would be nice to have that lever action quill/tailstock, but all I have is a standard handwheel/screw quill.

[Mel Fulks]

A good moulder guy can grind knives for that job that will have good detail. But you might have to insist that is what happens. Making knives easier to grind by obviating skilled free hand grinding has resulted in a lot of sloppy rounded edges. I recently bought a 12 foot piece of crown that I had to work on for over an hour to get enough detail on it to justify its use.

[Marvin Hasenak]

This is what I would do. First use Dale Maxim's low cost duplicator idea http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180582-Low-Cost-Duplicator But with modifications. My mod would be using a power source for the cutter, first I thought a Dremel, but I think if I could find a router bit that would cut the shape, I would go with a trim router with a speed controller on it. The other option would be to use a Foredom with a 44T handle on a similar setup to Dale's but a combination of it and Dick Webber's Flutemaster. That sort of takes care of the cutting system, designing and building should be sort of easy.

On the lathe I would use a 3/8" wood dowel for my blank, extra long, and cutoff the excess after I am finished. I would also use my collet chuck to hold the dowel. The collet chuck will need about 1.5" of dowel in it, another .5 extra length at the tailstock end, so about 2" of waste per unit. With the collet chuck the "blank" will run true every time, no waste of time trying to get it centered. My pattern would be made of 3/8" thick Plexiglass, I have tried the thin brass etc., that the Anker and other duplicators use, but found the thicker stuff works better.

Buy good dowels, maple, birch or walnut, not that crap from the big box stores that feels like they are made from bamboo. I get mine from a place in FT Worth that specializes in toy parts.

[Steve Peterson]

This is what I would do. First use Dale Maxim's low cost duplicator idea http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180582-Low-Cost-Duplicator But with modifications. My mod would be using a power source for the cutter, first I thought a Dremel, but I think if I could find a router bit that would cut the shape, I would go with a trim router with a speed controller on it. The other option would be to use a Foredom with a 44T handle on a similar setup to Dale's but a combination of it and Dick Webber's Flutemaster. That sort of takes care of the cutting system, designing and building should be sort of easy.

On the lathe I would use a 3/8" wood dowel for my blank, extra long, and cutoff the excess after I am finished. I would also use my collet chuck to hold the dowel. The collet chuck will need about 1.5" of dowel in it, another .5 extra length at the tailstock end, so about 2" of waste per unit. With the collet chuck the "blank" will run true every time, no waste of time trying to get it centered. My pattern would be made of 3/8" thick Plexiglass, I have tried the thin brass etc., that the Anker and other duplicators use, but found the thicker stuff works better.

Buy good dowels, maple, birch or walnut, not that crap from the big box stores that feels like they are made from bamboo. I get mine from a place in FT Worth that specializes in toy parts.

A collet chuck could be used with longer dowels to minimize waste. Start with a length of around 18" and around 3.5" sticking out. Carve one, cut it off, then shove another section of dowel forward. Minimize the amount of wood sticking through the chuck to prevent it from whipping and breaking off.

Steve

[Jim Underwood]

Sorry guys, I can't use dowels. There are square sections in this baluster.
347740

[Marvin Hasenak]

Your next fix. http://www.davidreedsmith.com/articles/knittingneedles/knitting_needles.htm

You will also need something on the tailstock point to keep the point of the live center from "finding the soft spot of the end grain.

[roger oldre]

the way the cutting edge is ground makes a difference. most of the duplicators end up with a tool that us more like a pointed scrape. purpose built duplicating lathes often use two bits fitted back to back or a single bit ground like the bow of a canoe. Many of the ad on duplicators use a chain drive which will do in a pinch, they do get loose if not kept up. If you plan to purchase get a good one. I mentioned befre you could build an effective duplicator for the small parts you are asking about fairly inexpensively. A peice of UHMW machined to fit the ways of your lathe and a lever to feed cross the bed with a stylus on the end to follow the template at the rear. Another lever anchored behind the ways attached too the block to advance the "crossfeed" in the longitudinal. you would have to support the template either on the back way or off the benchtop supportingyour lathe. It may sound complicated but it really would be easy.

[roger oldre]

I looked up your lathe... it is probly on legs. you would ave to fasten spport to the bottom of the bed, but still simple. I have a few videos on you tube. Look up Oreos40.

[Jim Underwood]

I looked up your lathe... it is probly on legs. you would ave to fasten spport to the bottom of the bed, but still simple. I have a few videos on you tube. Look up Oreos40.
Here is the lathe in question. I took a look at your homemade lathe. Very IMPRESSIVE! It's got feed and everything. Is your bit shown in those videos the "canoe bow" shape?
As for the duplicators, I've looked at the Vega, and it looks the best so far. The others look like they'd be too light duty. You consider it a good one?
How about your centers? Looks like you have a Steb type center on the tailstock and a pin center on the headstock. I don't think I can get away with that on this small a spindle.
347744

[roger oldre]

for the handles in the vid there is a drilled hole. a pilot has been used in lieu of the pointed center on the drive and just a standard cup center with a point for the other end. I also use a jig for centering: two sides form a corner with an adjustable ppoint on the bottom.line the piece up in the corner and give it a bump flip and repeat. It leaves a recess that the center points follow till tight. Vega has been around a long time. they also build copy lathes and know what is going on. premade tooling is expensive but once you see how to grind a bit it is easy to understand.

[roger oldre]

https://youtu.be/P12E08byJ6k

[roger oldre]

Here is what I called a curtain knife lathe. It actually has three cutters. The first takes off the square corners and sizes the blank to fit a traveling steady of fixed diameter.he one in the video forgoes this step to keep the square ends. The second knife follows a template and roughs the turning to approximate size and the third is the "curtain", a full profile cutter for the final cut. My dad had one of these (what we called a curtain knife lathe) at one time. The tooling costs were prohibitive for any runs that took less than a month to run.
https://youtu.be/h8_GX1xegcU