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View Full Version : Theoretical Discussion: Pull saws with 'western' teeth



Mark AJ Allen
11-07-2016, 2:49 PM
So just a premise before I launch in: I have large hands. I find most western style saws uncomfortable or even painful. Aside from the obvious 'make your own handles' solution, it seems to me that an alternative is Japanese style saws which are from my research, all cutting on the pull stroke. I've tried a number of different sizes and for various tasks. I like them ... but some have weird teeth; the kind you can't sharpen and if you could, you need significant skill to do so correctly.

So I find myself in a conundrum here. I don't like the 'teeth problem' on Japanese saws and I don't like the 'feel problem' on Western style. There are other pro's and cons but they complicate things. Ignoring those, I did a mind experiment and started experimenting; What if I took a western sawplate, attached a handle on the toe and pulled it?

Why would I do this?

1. I get a handle that I can grip comfortably with little effort
2. I get the advantages of a Japanese pull saw (straighter plate in tension, lower learning curve, possible thinner kerf)
3. I get the advantages of Western saw teeth, namely I know how to sharpen those pretty well

So what's the problem?

I always think I'm not clever enough to think of something so obvious; surely someone has tried this ... so my first question is ... is this a dead end? Anyone ever try such a thing? Are there any limitations you can thing of why this might be a bad idea?

I've actually taken a 22" rip saw blade, sharpened it and mounted a handle in the toe to resaw a 2"x10". Compared to my Roubo-style framesaw, it was an improvement. I'm seriously considering making a saw from scratch in this style but want to hear what the general, experienced public thinks before I spend some money on this. There might be some paths to failure I can avoid based on your collective experience.

george wilson
11-07-2016, 3:15 PM
The large lumber ripping Japanese saws have large,but "Western style" teeth. I don't see why these Western style teeth could not be used on pull saws.

Personally,I think Japanese saw teeth are poorly conceived: You have tall,fragile teeth which sometimes break off. And,when they do,you have a LOT of metal to remove to get the saw to again have a full compliment of teeth. You sharpen the tips of these tall,stalky teeth until they get too short(too short for WHAT,I don't know. If they got VERY short,they would become Western style teeth.)

But,as you sharpen these teeth (the teeth which do the actual sawing), you have to take the special,very thin,Japanese "knife"
file(for lack of a better description),and deepen the height of those thin,delicate stalky "teeth" again. The whole thing seems needlessly complex to maintain. Ans quite delicate to use without damaging them. What happens if you hit a nail,or an imbedded bullet,which DOES happen sometimes. It has happened to me. In fact,I know of an English guy who got blown up when his sawmill saw hit an imbedded artillery shell from cutting trees at the end of a former artillery range. You can find all sorts of odd things in trees which have grown near people. Even horse shoes,spikes for tying horses to,etc. in the old days.

But,I do not mean to say that ANY form of teeth should stand up to hitting cannon shells. But,sometimes you will hit a small nail. I have also hit BARBED WIRE,which is hard,nasty stuff! I'd rather hit the nail with Western style teeth. Takes MUCH less time to get the teeth re sharpened. I have enough OCD that looking at missing teeth bothers me considerably!:)

Now,I KNOW this is going to aggravate the die hard devotees of Japanese tools. But,I just think the Japanese saw tooth is a LOT of trouble to maintain,when Western style teeth actually cut just as well. And,yes,Western teeth have plenty of space to store a cut of chips before the saw clears the wood for the next push.

Stew Hagerty
11-07-2016, 3:50 PM
Japanese saws are designed for use in the softer woods that they typically use. Western saws are designed more for use with hardwoods.
FYI, Bad Axe saws are available with larger hands in mind. Also, the composite spined saws from Lee Valley seem to fit larger hands better. I have large hands myself (XL glove size) and find that a lot of vintage saws feel a bit tight (an exception are Mathieson & Son's saws from Scotland. I guess us Scots just have bigger hands), as do many modern saws. But I have 3 of the Veritas joinery saws and absolutely love them. I would dearly love to get a Bad Axe "Stiletto", but my wallet disagrees for the moment.

Prashun Patel
11-07-2016, 4:07 PM
" I get the advantages of a Japanese pull saw...lower learning curve"

There's a learning curve IMHO. Work holding and standing positions aren't completely intuitive.

Of course the Japanese saws are mostly designed to have replaceable blades. If you're using Ryobas, then it's quite possible that buying new blades for it would be long term more cost effective than buying 2 Western saws and sharpening the blades.

Patrick Chase
11-07-2016, 4:08 PM
It might first help to clearly define "western tooth". For the purposes of this discussion I suggest that we define it as a tooth which is filed with a 60-deg tip angle and double bevel (for crosscut). That definition excludes 2-man saws, but I think it covers most everything we're likely to discuss.

Going by that definition, there are a couple obvious examples of western-tooth saws that cut on the pull: Most coping saws (I often use mine on the push but I'm very much in the minority), and basically all fretsaws. They work just fine. I don't see any reason why the same wouldn't be true for, say, a dovetail saw. The tradeoff is that it becomes harder to check your own work as the sawdust will tend to obscure your guidelines, and relatively thick-plated western saws will be worse in that regard than Japanese ones because they remove more material and therefore create more sawdust.

EDIT: Fixed silly single/double thinko.

Brian Holcombe
11-07-2016, 4:59 PM
Are rip teeth being discussed or crosscut teeth? Rip teeth are easier to sharpen on a Japanese saw just as they are on a western saw.

Brian Holcombe
11-07-2016, 5:01 PM
Japanese saws are designed for use in the softer woods that they typically use. Western saws are designed more for use with hardwoods.
FYI, Bad Axe saws are available with larger hands in mind. Also, the composite spined saws from Lee Valley seem to fit larger hands better. I have large hands myself (XL glove size) and find that a lot of vintage saws feel a bit tight (an exception are Mathieson & Son's saws from Scotland. I guess us Scots just have bigger hands), as do many modern saws. But I have 3 of the Veritas joinery saws and absolutely love them. I would dearly love to get a Bad Axe "Stiletto", but my wallet disagrees for the moment.

Stew, this is not entirely true. Japanese saws can be filed at an optimum angle for softwoods or at one for hardwoods and if we're talking resharpenable saws, which are handmade, then they are ordered that way.

You can use a hardwood saw in softwood it just does not cut as fast, you can use a softwood saw in hardwood it just dulls faster.

I have replaceable blade saws that handle the full battery of materials including plywood, I also have some optimized for hardwoods.

Stanley Covington
11-07-2016, 5:34 PM
Buy a standard Japanese saw, either rip or crosscut, with the approximate tooth size you want. Don't buy an induction-hardened style. You won't be able to work the teeth on these easily.

Use it until it is dull, or not. File the teeth to the shape you want, with a good file. A Western triangular file, or a Japanese feather file, either one will work. The teeth will look ratty at first, but still cut. After two or three sharpenings, assuming you can use a file competently, they will be exactly want you want.

People are too timid with saws.

No rocket surgery here.

Stan

Steve Voigt
11-07-2016, 5:52 PM
I think Stan's advice is excellent. But (to Mark) I'm stuck on your opening sentence. I find it very odd that you consider Western handles to be painful. So, two questions:

- Do you use a three-fingered grip, and hold the handle without a death grip?
- Have you tried making a larger handle for a Western saw?

It seems to me that making a plus-sized version of a traditional (e.g. Disston, Atkins) handle would be a lot easier than making a whole saw. Without standing at your bench, I can't reliably diagnose your issue, but I would made sure you explore the above before giving up on Western saws. Unless you just want to use Japanese saws, in which case, as I said, Stan's advice is on the money.

Curt Putnam
11-07-2016, 6:46 PM
Kevin Glen-Drake makes a saw with a gent's style handle that comes in enough sizes to fit any hand. The saw can be used as a western push or an Asian pull. I have one and I like it. My hand is 4.25" across. Ron Bontz (Bontz Toolworks), Mark Harrell (Bad Axe Saws), Isaac Smith (Blackburn Tools) all will make a handle to fit your size. You might want to check these guys out. I lucked into one of Issac Smith's doveetail saws without the usual wait - wonderful saw.

Stewie Simpson
11-07-2016, 7:15 PM
Buy a standard Japanese saw, either rip or crosscut, with the approximate tooth size you want. Don't buy an induction-hardened style. You won't be able to work the teeth on these easily.

Use it until it is dull, or not. File the teeth to the shape you want, with a good file. A Western triangular file, or a Japanese feather file, either one will work. The teeth will look ratty at first, but still cut. After two or three sharpenings, assuming you can use a file competently, they will be exactly want you want.

People are too timid with saws.

No rocket surgery here.

Stan

Interesting comments Stanley.

Mark AJ Allen
11-07-2016, 8:00 PM
I think Stan's advice is excellent. But (to Mark) I'm stuck on your opening sentence. I find it very odd that you consider Western handles to be painful. So, two questions:

- Do you use a three-fingered grip, and hold the handle without a death grip?
- Have you tried making a larger handle for a Western saw?

It seems to me that making a plus-sized version of a traditional (e.g. Disston, Atkins) handle would be a lot easier than making a whole saw. Without standing at your bench, I can't reliably diagnose your issue, but I would made sure you explore the above before giving up on Western saws. Unless you just want to use Japanese saws, in which case, as I said, Stan's advice is on the money.

I can see how that's confusing and I didn't want to get too much into the other aspects of why I prefer the pull saw style without being given advice to purchase new. To be more clear, the primary reason I dislike Western Saws is the feel but there are others on the technical and price side of things. I have made new handles for panel saws. While an interesting learning experience, to be fair, I believe that the problem isn't entirely with the saws themselves, my hands aren't great either. Not only largish, but also some other physical issues. For whatever reason, the pull style grip are the way for me to go.

@ Stanley - What you say is true ... I had not considered 're-purposing' a Japanese Saw with Western teeth. That is a smart suggestion, though there is still one size that I need to build on my own; I have not found a Japanese saw currently available new to take on the task of resawing lumber boards similar to what I do with my Roubo-style frame saw. That's why my first experiment was with a 22" panel saw for resawing.

@Brian - That's a fair observation and correct. If I made any saws, I would be making a larger version of a rip saw for resawing first. The crosscuts are well covered by current vendor offerings.

george wilson
11-07-2016, 9:41 PM
Western style saws have always cut either soft or hard woods to my satisfaction. I'd much rather maintain their teeth than those of Japanese saws,too.

Alan Schwabacher
11-07-2016, 10:27 PM
Check out the bow saws advocated by Frid and others. They are Western in sharpening, but have very thin plates used in tension, similar at least in that to the Japanese saws. While usually pushed, you can use them either way.

Unfortunately, the images Google finds for "bow saw" are mostly pruning saws, and then what Frid calls a "turning saw" with a narrow bladde for cutting curves. Not many of the similar but wider bladed lightweight saws useful for fast straight cuts are shown. Including "Frid" in the search terms helps.

Patrick Chase
11-07-2016, 11:45 PM
Western style saws have always cut either soft or hard woods to my satisfaction. I'd much rather maintain their teeth than those of Japanese saws,too.

I'm basically in the same boat as George. I suspect that's because I learned and practiced on western saws rather than any intrinsic superiority, though.

I have a few Japanese saws around and enjoy using them for certain things. I also like the triple-bevel "turbo cut" blades in my bowsaws, though I mostly use them on the push...

Patrick Chase
11-07-2016, 11:46 PM
Check out the bow saws advocated by Frid and others. They are Western in sharpening, but have very thin plates used in tension, similar at least in that to the Japanese saws. While usually pushed, you can use them either way.

Unfortunately, the images Google finds for "bow saw" are mostly pruning saws, and then what Frid calls a "turning saw" with a narrow bladde for cutting curves. Not many of the similar but wider bladed lightweight saws useful for fast straight cuts are shown. Including "Frid" in the search terms helps.

You can also get Western bow saws with Japanese toothed blades, for example the ones for Nobex miter boxes or the saws Highland sells.

Kirby Krieger
11-08-2016, 12:33 AM
... Japanese style saws which are from my research, all cutting on the pull stroke. I've tried a number of different sizes and for various tasks. I like them ... but some have weird teeth; the kind you can't sharpen and if you could, you need significant skill to do so correctly.

New, hardened, un-sharpenable, blades, compared to the hours you have in your life, are a bargain, and are readily available. These blades, as you've experienced, work well ... you like them. The issue here is not money. What is it?

(Fwiw, I have Frid-style saws, Japanese saws, Bad Axe saws, and even a JointMaker Pro — they all cut wood well. Fwiw, 2, I have busted my collarbones five times, significantly damaged my shoulders once, had each shoulder operated on to "un-freeze" (arthroscopic acromioplasty) — in short, my sawing isn't robust — and all these saws work for me. Without knowing more about you — I suspect the "large hands" is a MacGuffin; and you later add the important but evasive "Not only largish, but also some other physical issues" — I can't be more helpful. What — be exact, no need to make a general case — isn't working for you, case by case? What is your goal?)

Stanley Covington
11-08-2016, 6:15 AM
@ Stanley - What you say is true ... I had not considered 're-purposing' a Japanese Saw with Western teeth. That is a smart suggestion, though there is still one size that I need to build on my own; I have not found a Japanese saw currently available new to take on the task of resawing lumber boards similar to what I do with my Roubo-style frame saw.

If you are serious, I can get you an older (20~25 years), but still new, handmade rip saw in a size large enough to do the job. Not too pricey. You can make the handle that fits you best, either a straight handle, or an angled handle. See the pics below.

Not sure what handle will work best with your body.

These saws can rip anything you are strong enough to handle. I know, I own some old ones, indeed antiques, and have even had one made custom for me by a famous saw blacksmith named Takijiro with teeth specifically designed to rip white oak. I use them all the time since I don't have any stationary power tools here in Tokyo.

Here is a link to a webpage to a fella that says he makes them. Don't know him or his products, but the pretty pictures are good reference. http://www43.tok2.com/home/metateya/gagari.htm

Here's a link to a video of a guy using a "gagari" rip saw to cut some hardwood for the head of a guitar. So you can see that Japanese saws can cut hardwoods just fine, and the teeth are not necessarily fragile, and do not necessarily break off as George fears.

With the larger saws, unlike the fragile and very fine-toothed dozuki saws, or the easily broken throw-away induction-hardened saws (they are useful tools, don't get me wrong), any craftsman worth his salt will file his own teeth to work best for his application. I think this is universal. Or, at least in Japan, he will send the saw to a professional sharpener with the details of the work he needs to do, and often a sample of the wood he needs to cut, and have the sharpener modify the teeth and plate to meet his needs.

Big teeth are easy to rework.

If you want to use disposable blade saws, get the biggest saw without induction hardened teeth you can find in a rip tooth, and modify the teeth as I suggested in my earlier post. If you need something bigger for serious ripping, contact me for a sure thing, or roll your dice on Ebay. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

Stan

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Stewie Simpson
11-08-2016, 6:39 AM
Stanley; where's the photo of the Japanese Pull Saw sharpened with Western style saw teeth. I am sure you wouldn't be making such a recommendation without 1st trialling it yourself. Maybe you can point us to a link where that has been done in the past.

Stewie;

Stanley Covington
11-08-2016, 7:14 AM
Stanley; where's the photo of the Japanese Pull Saw sharpened with Western style saw teeth. I am sure you wouldn't be making such a recommendation without 1st trialling it yourself. Maybe you can point us to a link where that has been done in the past.

Stewie;

What are "Western-style teeth?" Perhaps you mean teeth easily sharpened with a Western triangular saw file? If that is the case, you don't need a picture, just look in your own workshop.

I did not recommend Western-style teeth. I suggested he "File the teeth to the shape you want." The western-style teeth with shallow gullets will work. Or, he can use a Japanese feather file (there a Western files that can do the same job) and make deeper gullets in the Japanese style.

I like the deeper gullets because they clog less and cut cleaner, in my experience. But Western gullets work fine too. With bigger teeth, geometry is less critical, and breakage is not a problem.

I don't have time to go into a deep discussion of tooth geometry, but he can study and guess what would work best for him, and adjust based on trial and error, so long as he is willing to use the files himself, or hire a patient, cooperative professional to do it for him.

Stan

Patrick Chase
11-08-2016, 11:02 AM
What are "Western-style teeth?" Perhaps you mean teeth easily sharpened with a Western triangular saw file? If that is the case, you don't need a picture, just look in your own workshop.

I think the practical definition would be a tooth with a 60-deg tip angle and a double bevel (if crosscut).

Mark AJ Allen
11-08-2016, 12:35 PM
Thanks for the responses everyone. I have the answers that will help me move forward with my ideas. I see nothing here that makes me think I can't file a saw for a pull configuration with any common tooth configuration I choose.

Pat Barry
11-08-2016, 12:43 PM
... I see nothing here that makes me think I can't file a saw for a pull configuration with any common tooth configuration I choose.
+1. Please keep us posted with your results though

Ron Bontz
11-09-2016, 3:12 PM
2nd thought. This is way too much to address here and I type too slow.

Mark AJ Allen
11-10-2016, 8:57 AM
Dang, just when you think you're on to something different and interesting:

https://two-lawyers-toolworks.blogspot.ca/2016/11/gents-saw-plum-and-gents-azebiki.html

Talk about timing. Look close at the teeth on the Azebiki ... that's not filed with a Japanese Feather file ...