Shop Floor

[Gary Lange]

I am getting ready to start building my new shop in the basement of the house. I have nine foot ceilings so I have plenty of room. I live in Missouri so the weather won't be to bad. I am starting with the floor by laying plastic on floor then treated lumber 2X4's on the long side with 3/4" tongue and grove plywood on top of another sheet of the plastic. The part I am wondering about is what I want on top of the plywood. Should I paint the floor, Tile it or use something else that a lot of you do. I have been waiting for about 30 years to get a place I can build a woork shop in and now since I am retired I have that space. That space plus the Grizzly Showroom about 10 Miles away could be costly for me. Your input will be greatly appreciated. Oh, and if you live in or around Springfield, Mo. let me know.

[lou sansone]

Great choice for the wood floor. I can't stress enough the wisdom in having wooden floors. All the old new england mills had them and they were much more comfortable than concrete on the body. Ok now on to the floor question. My floor is constructed almost exactly as your is with the addition of a final hardwood layer of hickory. Hickory is the hardest north american hardwood and really holds up and looks good. It can be had for a reasonable price as well.

here are a few shots of my shop floor.

lou

[Timo Christ]

Lou, do you get any vibration in the floor from the machines? It looks like the weight is no problem.
Nice floor, and shop!
Regards,
Timo

[John Bailey]

Lou,

It looks like you used screws. What did you use? Also, are the boards tongue and groove?

John

[Frank Pellow]

I suggest using plywood for the floor. Mine is 1/2 " G1S fir ply over 3/4" treated plywood. I painted the floor with two coats of oiul-based floor paint. The good thing about this arrangement is that I really do not have to worry much about the floor. It looks good, it feals good, and when I screw up and gouge it a bit or spill something on it I don't worry because the floor can eventually be cheaply and easily refurbished.

[Steve Stube]

Gary, why two sheets of plastic? What spacing between the treated material?

[Gary Lange]

It would be a standard 2"X4" so that is about 1 1/2" between the concrete and the bottom of the 3/4" plywood. I was thinking a double lay of mositure protection. Would one be sufficient? I like that Hickory idea but I like the painted idea also for quick repair when I spill something and I will most likely spill something.

[Steve Stube]

One layer of poly should be adequate I think. I was referring to the spacing between edges of the 2x4's or do you plan on laying 2x's solid?

[lou sansone]

It would be a standard 2"X4" so that is about 1 1/2" between the concrete and the bottom of the 3/4" plywood. I was thinking a double lay of mositure protection. Would one be sufficient? I like that Hickory idea but I like the painted idea also for quick repair when I spill something and I will most likely spill something.

to all :
1. the shop floor is on a cement slab, so there is no problem with vibration.
2. The floor is face nailed with "cut nails" through the 3/4" tg plywood and into the 2x4 pt sleepers which are power nailed to the cement slab. Each and every and of the 5000+ cut nail holes were predrilled to prevent splitting and to allow a nail to actually go through the hickory!
3. The floor has 4 coats of oil based poly and almost any stuff that I spill on it can be wiped up without any problem.
4. I believe that I put 6 mil poly under the slab when I poured it and then another layer under the sleepers on top of the cement. Have not had any problem. I only regret not insulating the slab.
5. the hickory is a full 3/4 " t/g material without back relief of any type. I think that I put rosen paper between the plywood and the hickory floor.

lou

[Gary Lange]

I see what you mean Steve. I don't plan on laing them solid but with the 4'X8' sheets I am lloking at at least every 2' and have toyed with the idea of using foam insulation layered between the 2x4's which should provide extra support. I feel a 2'pace with foam filler if I use it and toped with 3/4" plywood should provide plenty of support for the tools and be easy on the feet and legs.

[Tom Hamilton]

Hi Gary:

FWW had an article on this subject a few years ago, 2001 or 2002 I believe. Possibily in the "year end" shop issue.

You are on the same track they recommended. They suggested taping a piece of 6 mil plastic to the floor and monitoring it for a few days. If no condensation developes then you are good to go.

Their specs were 6 mil plastic, taped at the seams, pressure treated 2x4's around the perimeter and on 16" centers, covered by T&G ply floor underlayment. They recommended a half sheet in the first course to offset seams.

I stopped there and applied a coat of BLO tinted with Golden Oak and a touch of Walnut. There are some pics a couple of posts down in Shop Tour.

Several coats of poly followed. I refresh the poly every six months or so. It's easy on the old runner's legs, and sharp tools stick instead of dinging.

Hope this helps, TJH

[Scott Coffelt]

I would recommend no more than 16" centers. If you want insulation, just use foam sheets cut to fit in between the 2x4's.

[Steve Stube]

Gary, I know of a shop where the 3/4" T&G ply was tightly fitted over 1" rigid foam, no sleepers, and 6 mil poly between the cement and foam. A floater floor 'if you will' with no place to go. There are fire ratings to be addressed with foam in the floor of an inhabitable space but you are correct it does add greatly to support and comfort. Out of caution, check your local code if you want to pursue the foam route.

[Gary Lange]

I appreciate all the responses and I have a good idea that my thinking is on track and I should be able to get started with the floor project so I can hit Grizzly for some tools. The main part of the shop will be 11' X 18' with a section of the attached John Deere room available for storage of wood. The J/D Room is about 9' X 18' and I don't think I need that much for the lawn care equipment. I also have a section leading to the shop that is about 4' X 10' that will be used for fastners and small parts or tool storage. The lighting is going to be 4' Fluorescent lights set in between the ceiling joists two per section. This should give me plenty of light. I had the builders electrician put outlets on everyother 2" X 4" around the shop area so I should have plenty of outlets and I have a fuse box in the room to run 220V for the saw and whatever else needs it. I am champing at the bit to get started but with a new home I had other things to do first and plus I love fishing and have been getting the boat ready also. It's amazing how much you need to do in a new home. I put up blinds, storm doors and have the yard as a work in progress. I will post pic's as I get started and move along the project. Thanks again for the help.

[Roy Wall]

Gary,

Good to have you here at SMC!!!

I grew up in Branson and currently live in the KC, MO area... If I ever get down you way, I"ll look you up!

Good luck on the shop floor....you are headed in the right direction.

[Gary Lange]

If you are in the area Roy feel free to stop by. Give me an e-mail to let me know your headed this way so we can hook up.

[Andy Hoyt]

Gary -- Before you lay a single sheet of anything of the floor spend some time with the layout of your principle tools - especially the ones that will be out in the middle of the space. And run some conduit with casually located stub ups for electrical outlets in the floor. You can pull the cable later. Might even pay to add a few extras for future acquisitions at your local toy store. Oops - Tool Store.

You'll wish you had when you start tripping over that darned power cable for the table saw.

[Gary Lange]

Tghanks for the heads up on the electrical Andy. I have been thinking about that also and plan on putting a 220V in the center for the table saw. I will look into putting the 110V in for other tools or just plugs for shop vac.

[Jim Becker]

One layer of poly vapor barrier, PT 2x on their sides with ridgid foam insulation between them, T&G plywood and then whatever you prefer to "finish"...as long as it is not slick. The ridgid foam provides for both a warmer floor in the winter, even where you are, and addtional ridgidity to the subfloor nailed to the 2x material...you can also go 24" OC with the foam filler if you are doing a second layer on your floor.

Fine Homebuilding recently ran an article where the floor was pretty much floating on the ridgid foam...no 2x material, if I recall clearly...

[lou sansone]

As others have said the ridged foam is a good idea for the floor. I have it in 30% of my shop and wish I had done it in the rest as well. Maybe you could get away with 24" on center, but I chose 16" because of the type of equipment I knew I would have in the shop. I also did run all the conduit in between the floors as others have suggested and it does help keep the place pretty free of any cords on the floor. Let us know how you make out when it is all done.

best wishes
lou

[Roger Bell]

I also recommend that you consider rigid foam insulation (blueboard) between your sleepers. Your greatest heat loss will be thru the concrete. The stuff is cheap and can be easily cut on the TS. It also fills the void (you might as well) and helps support your plywood.

I used 1 1/8" t and g "sturdi-ply" from HD rather than the 3/4 stuff. Glad I did. You only do it once and the material cost difference is insignificant compared to the benefits.

[Alan Turner]

Conduit under the floor would be my thought. Make it big enough so that you can run heavier lines if you should get into some old iron, as has our Mr. Sansone. Old iron is great, esp. if you have some 3 phase around. Having the conduit in place should allow for future changes without pulling the floor, which would be a PITA.

[Andy Hoyt]

Gary - the heavier the iron the wiser you would be to add solid blocking under neath the machine's point loads. IE - no foam, just scrap 2x4

[Martin Lutz]

I am considering doing the same thing except with 2 X 6's. I would like to run my dust colliction in the floor as well as conduit for electrical. I like the rigid foam ideas and the sturdi floor. I plan on making the DC runs accessible with removable floor panels. Has anyone done this? DC captured in the floor and all?

[Jim Becker]

Martin, 2x6 is not going to give you enough room for more than 5" duct...they are only about 5 1/2" tall. That said, you can move a pretty good amount of air through 5" duct. Not as much as 6", but enough to be servicable to many tools.

[Jim Dannels]

Thanks you Gentlemen, if you keep running threads like this I`ll have less questions when I start my shop.

The foam in the floor was an idea I was kickng around and had yet to ask.
One quick question, if one were to put dust collection an electrical in the floor.
Would it not be wise to put it in a trough with access panels if perish the thought a plug should occur?

[Royce Meritt]

The part I am wondering about is what I want on top of the plywood. Should I paint the floor, Tile it or use something else that a lot of you do.

My goal is to someday have the plywood floor in my shop entirely finished with drips, spills, etc. from various paint, poly, laquer, etc. from every project I've finished. Not quite there yet but someday! :D

[Andy Hoyt]

Would it not be wise to put it in a trough with access panels if perish the thought a plug should occur?

Plugs do indeed occur. My under floor system was Oneida designed and is fabulous with one exception. The design included a floor sweep at the end of a 5" run right at the lathe. So guess where I tend to sweep shavings? Bad idea because it's too much "sweepage mass" for this diameter and end-of-run location. I'm going to modify the floor sweep into a sanding hood for the lathe, and build a floor sweep nearer the collector and tap into the 8" main.

When plugs have occured I have to go down below and dismantle about four sections of pipe and elbows to get at the one spot where it always clogs. On the short term I may put a clean out panel right there to save a few bucks.

[lou sansone]

Plugs do indeed occur. My under floor system was Oneida designed and is fabulous with one exception. The design included a floor sweep at the end of a 5" run right at the lathe. So guess where I tend to sweep shavings? Bad idea because it's too much "sweepage mass" for this diameter and end-of-run location. I'm going to modify the floor sweep into a sanding hood for the lathe, and build a floor sweep nearer the collector and tap into the 8" main.

When plugs have occured I have to go down below and dismantle about four sections of pipe and elbows to get at the one spot where it always clogs. On the short term I may put a clean out panel right there to save a few bucks.

No system is perfect, but what you are describing is the main reason not to install the DC under the floor where access is limited. I think if I had a full basement below the main floor of the shop I would put some of the DC below the floor. Machines like my wide belt sander and planer like to have the DC above rather than below though. Although I have to say I am not sure what really is the drawback with putting all of the DC overhead unless there are low ceiling heights to contend with.

[Andy Hoyt]

Lou - I do have full access to the cellar below. Albeit 6' headroom. I put all ductwork down there for two reasons.

One - I think that the mess of ductwork in a typical fully equipped shop is kinda ugly.

Two - I wanted to be able to carry and spin stock end for end within the shop without fear of smashing into said ductwork.

[Gary Lange]

We have some wonderfull thoughts and ideas kicking around here. I never expected this much help but it sure is welcome and feeds my imagination. I am looking forward now to getting it started so I can see how it turns out myself. Thanks to all for your excellent advise and guidence. I too was thinking of the DC in the floor but thought that the space was way to small so once i get the floor down and the electric in the conduit I will start thinking about the Dust Collection. That I am sure is a can of worms as I like things neat and tidy.

[Martin Lutz]

Addressing the possible plugs in the floor Dust collection system. Has anyone ever tried using a "Roto-Router" type apparatus to clear the plug? or an electricians snake?

[Don Baer]

Martin, 2x6 is not going to give you enough room for more than 5" duct...they are only about 5 1/2" tall. That said, you can move a pretty good amount of air through 5" duct. Not as much as 6", but enough to be servicable to many tools.

Who says that the ducting has to be round. Maybe some rectanular ducting like the HVAC guys use could be used to keep a lower profile yet keep the area up high enough to provide adaquate air flow.

Just a tought.

[Andy Hoyt]

Addressing the possible plugs in the floor Dust collection system. Has anyone ever tried using a "Roto-Router" type apparatus to clear the plug? or an electricians snake?

Yup, I've tried this with one of those 4' long things that are designed for clearing a plugged toilet. It seems to work if you have a "minor" plug; but if it's a "major" plug it will just compact it a bit more, as well as shove it just out of reach. At least that's my experience.

[Steve Stube]

The commercial 7" oval ducting might be the ticket "if" you can get it in heavy enough gage to keep from colapsing. I was able to squeeze the 7" commercial in a 2" x 4" spacing (tight but doable) for heat ducting but I think this material I have is too thin and would not stand up to vacuum. Too bad because I have 15+ 10 footers I'd like to find a home for.

[Randy Moore]

Gary,

I live just on the SW edge of Kansas City, in Olathe Kansas. My mom lives on Table Rock lake, no I don't get to fish there enough. I get down to see her about 1 a month. You have members of SMC close by.:)

Welcome to SMC. Good place to be with lots of helpful people.

Randy

[Jim Dannels]

Gary,

I live just on the SW edge of Kansas City, in Olathe Kansas. My mom lives on Table Rock lake, no I don't get to fish there enough. I get down to see her about 1 a month. You have members of SMC close by.:)

Welcome to SMC. Good place to be with lots of helpful people.

Randy
:D Randy That really amazes me every time I go through there. When I was in College in Olathe back in 1969, there was 30 miles of cornfields between Olathe and KC. Now it`s solid city.

[Steve Stube]

Roger Bell,
Your greatest heat loss will be thru the concrete.

If you are referring to the concrete floor you would have to add a bunch of qualifiers to convince me of this. Heat rises, sub frost line is subject to underwater temperature - usually ~ 53 degrees F. Nope, I think it would be a hard sell. Comfort is another mater. It's the word GREATEST I have a problem with. I'm not sure of frost in Missouri (do you have any?) but a basement with 9' ceiling would probably be below any frost (unless it is a walk-out).

[Roy Wall]

We have some wonderfull thoughts and ideas kicking around here. I never expected this much help but it sure is welcome and feeds my imagination. I am looking forward now to getting it started so I can see how it turns out myself. Thanks to all for your excellent advise and guidence. I too was thinking of the DC in the floor but thought that the space was way to small so once i get the floor down and the electric in the conduit I will start thinking about the Dust Collection. That I am sure is a can of worms as I like things neat and tidy.

Gary,

I'll second (and third) the need for some 12 guage wire in conduit as you never know when you may obtain 220v machines. If you have the 12/3 in place, you will be way ahead of the game....you can always use it for 110 machines anyway - and it will already be in place as the needs arise!!:)

The guys/gals in this forum are great! They have helped me with WW techniques, electrical hookups, DC questions, hand tool & machine questions....I could go on and on.

Like you, I've waited about 25 years to get a "proper shop" - and while I"m in a 3 car garage (sharing with the cars) - I've never been more excited about WWing in my life. I"ve got my first cabinet saw, a cyclone, good hand tools, a sub-panel in my garage........all from expertise here at SMC.

Also, a good group of WW'ers here in KC -- we pack up and go to the WWing show every spring. You've got a lot of good 'creekers close to you in NW Arkansas too.

Learning is a great thing - you can do that here at SMC!!

[Gary Lange]

Steve it is a Basement Walkout but I think I should be below the frost line anyway. I am not sure if the ground freezes here as I just moved in on July 20th this year from Illinois.

Roy, I like the idea of putting the 12/3 wire in for future 220V tools. I too have a Sub Panel in the workshop so it should an easy thing to do.

I love to fish and am going to be spending time on Table Rock once I get the boat back. Had to get a Water Pump Problem repaired. It will warm up next week and I am going fishing. God I love being retired!