festool domino versus $1300 of other tools

[John Densmore]

hi all,
I've been woodworking for a few years with a decent garage shop (table and band saw, drill press, planer, jointer, hand planes, chisels etc.). I'm thinking about getting a domino primarily because it seems like it will speed up projects. To make mortises now I use either drill press and chisels or a router and edge guide. tenons are made with a dado blade on he table saw. it is a long and tedious process. A shoulder or rabbet plane would help with fitting and cleaning up the tenons.

Would you invest in the domino or a few other tools to help with traditional M&T? I think right now the big think that would help me is a shoulder plane for fine tuning. What else could help on both quailty and speed?

[glenn bradley]

This one will get a lot of chatter. Dominos do speed things along for certain types of construction. I do a lot of M&T and quite a bit of floating tenon. I have never been completely clear on why the Domino fails under so much less of a load than a floating M&T since that is essentially what it is. It may be that the pre-made Domino material is a contributor(?). I would think a properly scaled and fitting floating Domino should hold as well as a floating tenon. Also, the levels required to cause failure may make this a moot point.

Despite the probably numerous responses you will get here, the decision is one you will have to glean by reading and re-reading through them. Your preference for speed over process may contribute as well. A brad nailer will speed things along too but, I only fire up a compressor in my shop about twice a year; its a personal choice. I have methods and techniques that work well for me on M&T with the tools that I have; others may prefer something a little more automated. Your preference will come from your experiences. If, after reading through the responses to your thread you are still undecided I would do some more woodworking and decide later.

[Van Huskey]

For many the Domino is a game changer, others not so much. I am in the game changer camp, I have used just about every joint and joint making process around over the years and there is just nothing else that is as fast and repeatable at a Domino. There are times when even the 700's tenons are not big enough for a joint but those are usually the times for me it is faster to hand cut them than setup the mortiser and tenoning jig so I sold those off. Every once in a while I get nostalgic and consider buying new ones but the mood usually passes fast.

Honestly, I see no reason to even debate the subject as it is simple, go buy a Domino, use it on as many project or just plain playing around for the 30 day trial period, if you love it keep it, if you are indifferent or don't like it return it. Festool isn't cheap but they are happy to let you try their tools. You said your primary reason was to speed up your projects, if you take the time to learn how to use the Domino and the basic tricks (plenty of youtube content) I would be AMAZED if it didn't make a significant difference in your speed. For some people the journey is the reward, for me I am moving more toward racing to get years worth of designs realized, the longer I do this the bigger the list of "some day" projects gets and I am shifting more to getting those built than spending time on repetitious work.

[mreza Salav]

Glen, I don't understand why one would think Domino is anything but a floating tenon. And it's failure shouldn't be any different than a similarly sized floating tenon. A domino and the hole made by the Domino (tool) are typically very snug. I suspect those that have higher than expected failure don't use adequate glue.

OP: I used router (with edge guide), to make mortises, I've had a Mortiser, I have two different doweling jigs (Jessem) and they work great too (sometimes still use them) I bought the Domino 500. When I bought the 500 it I had a full house of cabinets to make (plus lots of other things) and speed was important. I don't regret getting it. In fact for all the passage doors I made I should have had bought the 700 as well.
Since then I have sold the 500 and bought the 500 (you can do pretty much everything you can do with 500 with 700 and more).
I still think there are times that one should use a true M/T but for almost every other occasion Domino will do it.

These days I'm making a couple of mitered frame doors (the door is bowed) and I'm re-enforcing the joint with 8x70mm dominos.

346967

[Van Huskey]

Glen, I don't understand why one would think Domino is anything but a floating tenon. And it's failure shouldn't be any different than a similarly sized floating tenon.

My guess is the genesis is FWW Jan/Feb 2009, the Domino didn't fair well in the test. There is a lot to say about the way they employed the Domino though. They made a right angle with 2 pieces of 3/4 x 2 1/2" stock and used a single 10x50 Domino, the Domino stayed intact and the wood failed around it. The Domino was over half the thickness of the stock, I would have used a pair of 8mm or maybe 6mm Dominos and longer than 50mm BUT the 700 did not exist at the time.

[Cary Falk]

I'm waiting for the patents to expire and the clones to kick in. Can't be to long now. Bosch should have one waiting in the wings. :)

[Matt Day]

I'm with you Cary! Now to google and find out when that will be.

Edit: looks like they first sold in 2007 but I couldn't find a patent date with a quick search. But patents generally last 20 years so we're probability half way there! ;-)

[Max Neu]

I remember reading an article (I think fine woodworking)where they tested the domino's strength,and shop made tenon's made a much stronger joint than using the festool domino's.I am guessing it's because the domino's are compressed and don't absorb glue as well as a shop made tenon.That being said,if you get a domino machine,you always have the option of making your own tenon's if you fell like you need some extra strength.

[Tom Giles]

If I had $1300 to spend and my shop wasn't well stocked with tools yet I'd hold off on buying the domino. I'd buy a "few other tools to help with traditional M&T" and learn to master that part of the craft. Then I'd spend what I saved on more wood.

Unless you are in it for profit, is speed really that important?

[Mike Cutler]

John

Take Van's advice seriously.
Hold off on the Domino until your next big project, then buy one. If it works better for you, and speeds things up, keep it. If not return it.
I don't think it's the correct tool for every M&T job, but I bet it would cover a good percentage of them.
I would pick the 700 over the 500 only because I know the scale of projects I tend to do.
I personally wouldn't buy the tenon assortment they sell with the Domino, only because I know that I wouldn't use 1/2 those sizes. I'd either run off a bunch of tenon stock, or just buy the individual bags of the sizes I would need at the time. That kit is pretty $$$$. It would be very easy to make the tenon stock in bulk yourself.

I understand about speeding up the process, even when not for profit reasons. I have a hard time these days getting into the shop to build the projects I need to get done because of work. If I want to finish more projects, I either have to retire, or find a faster method. Bringing the cutter to the material is definitely faster in a small shop environment.

[John Sincerbeaux]

I don't own a Domino. I own a Multi Router which is the double the price of a Domino and ten times the versatility. However, if I were you I would buy the Domino. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is "accuracy". With the Domino you will get speed and spot-on accuracy. Who doesn't want that?
Buy one!

[Mike Cutler]

I don't own a Domino. I own a Multi Router which is the double the price of a Domino and ten times the versatility. However, if I were you I would buy the Domino. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is "accuracy". With the Domino you will get speed and spot-on accuracy. Who doesn't want that?
Buy one!

John
Have you ever done an informal comparison between the two? Pros and cons?
I've been looking at those Multi Routers for a long time, and just kind of wondered

[Cary Falk]

Unless you are in it for profit, is speed really that important?

Sometimes it is more of a want than a need. Some people are tool junkies like me and that's ok. I woodwork so I can collect tools. I don't do a lot of M&T. If I did I could justify the cost in my head whether it sped up the process or not.

[Cary Falk]

I'm with you Cary! Now to google and find out when that will be.

Edit: looks like they first sold in 2007 but I couldn't find a patent date with a quick search. But patents generally last 20 years so we're probability half way there! ;-)

It didn't seem to take this long for clones of Track Saws, biscuit jointers, or Oscillating Multi tools to come out.

[Martin Wasner]

Used Castle machines sell for slot $1500. For an extra $200 you'd have something far more useful

[Ted Diehl]

It's funny to see this thread pop up today. I've been equipping my garage workshop for some serious woodworking in retirement. Yesterday, after reading reviews on the Festool Domino, I swallowed hard and ordered the Domino 500 with a systainer full of dominos from Tool Nut. After placing the order, I went back on Tool Nuts site and ordered the Festool CT Mini Hepa dust extractor. I wanted the CT mini for not only the Domino 500 but for all my other small tools like my Makita Track Saw and my palm sander. I'm currently building a cabinet for my garage and it seemed like a good idea to use the domino for this and other future projects.

[Prashun Patel]

It's a personal decision. Most domino users like me will tell you it is worth it and you can use it in ways that aren't obvious when you buy it, like for breadboards, apron to table slots. It excels in convenience vs other methods for making angles cross connections. It is great.

these days I tend to enjoy the process of manual cutting more and more. It does get less tedious. However, when I want to bang something out and don't want to sacrifice the quality of the end product I think it helps my profitability a good deal.

[John Sincerbeaux]

John
Have you ever done an informal comparison between the two? Pros and cons?
I've been looking at those Multi Routers for a long time, and just kind of wondered

I have a friend that was new to woodworking and like the OP, he needed a joinery tool. He bought a Domino and we used it together to build cabinets and some furniture for his kids. It's basically a biskit joiner (which I still use) but obviously so much better because of the variable sizes of tenons. It's super easy and actually fun to use.

I havebeen using my multi router for at least ten years. I make a lot of boxes and small tables. I do a ton of things on the multi router that would be impossible on ANY tool that I know of. I use my MR to create lock-set and hinge mortises. I made a vertical fence system that I can use with the pneumatic clamps to quickly and accurately perform multiple mortises on each side. I even use the MR to create compound inlay corners on my bombay shaped boxes.

I think for cabinets and most furniture, the domino would prob be a better choice. But like I said, for doing smaller, more detailed work including chairs etc, the MR is king.

[Greg R Bradley]

It didn't seem to take this long for clones of Track Saws, biscuit jointers, or Oscillating Multi tools to come out.
I think you will find it did take that long. These tools came out far before they became popular. I had a Festo track saw for about 25 years before I bought a Makita when they were introduced. My Fein Multimaster that just wore out is more like 30 years old.

[jack duren]

If I had $1300 to spend and my shop wasn't well stocked with tools yet I'd hold off on buying the domino. I'd buy a "few other tools to help with traditional M&T" and learn to master that part of the craft. Then I'd spend what I saved on more wood.

Unless you are in it for profit, is speed really that important?

Agree........................

[Robin Frierson]

I really like the MT I get from the Leigh MT jig. I also have the domino and it seems a compromise, some situations its hard to get a good size fit, one domino is too little but two too much type of situations. You can easily break a single #8 domino joint. Plus I find the glueups to be more exhausting with two mortises vs one with the jig. People compromise by only gluing the mortise was the advice I received.

My index pins are also off from left side to right side by 1/32 to 1/64 so I try to stay with the same pin through the process. I have only had the Domino XL for two projects so will give it more time, maybe I will fall in love with it later, but my initial impression is I still prefer the traditional MT. I am not in a huge hurry, retired, so dont mind spending the extra time to do pinned MTs with the Leigh. A lot of people who have the Leigh no longer use them, going with the Domino so you can buy them half price used now.

[Van Huskey]

John

I'd either run off a bunch of tenon stock, or just buy the individual bags of the sizes I would need at the time. That kit is pretty $$$$. It would be very easy to make the tenon stock in bulk yourself.



While it is indeed easy to cut your own stock I wanted to make a note about the Domino assortments. The assortments come with the bits for the sizes in the assortment, each Domino comes with one bit size so most people generally buy all the size bits sooner or later. If one does the math (for example on the assortment on for the 500) it is cheaper to buy the assortment since the bits are 2/3 or the assortment price and you get a Systainer to keep them in. Nothing is a bargain with Festool but it is a better deal. I always saw it the same way as you until I got ready to buy and did the math. Initially, there were sizes I thought I would never use, and I may have never used them if I hadn't had the bits and Dominos onhand but in retrospect I am happy I did.


I just wanted to add while I am not actibe on FOG I have read a lot there over the years and two things pop out about the Domino, one I have never read about anyone returning one but have read it multiple times about every other Festool since in most cases someone else either makes a better tool or a better value tool. The second theme is the Domino is almost always the leader in threads of the "what Festool should I buy first" genre. The other theme that pops up is when are the patents going to expire, which Cary brought up here, unfortunately it is going to be a while... That said when they do expire and everyone from Harbor Freight to Mafell is making them the question will no longer be whether to buy a portable floating tenon mortiser but simply which one to buy. There are a lot of ways to cut floating tenons from basically free homemade versions (which youtube and the net are covered with) to $5k plus free standing Euro machines and each has their benefits but IMO none of them are as quick, easy and accurate over as large a range of project types as the Domino but depening on what you do one of the others may be better suited to niches of work.

[John Densmore]

If I had $1300 to spend and my shop wasn't well stocked with tools yet I'd hold off on buying the domino. I'd buy a "few other tools to help with traditional M&T" and learn to master that part of the craft. Then I'd spend what I saved on more wood.

Unless you are in it for profit, is speed really that important?

What would those other tools be?

[jack duren]

What would those other tools be?

To know how to answer that question one would require knowing what one intends to make and what you have and don't have.

[Mike Henderson]

I bought a Domino and use it in a lot of my projects. There are lots of places where a loose tenon is appropriate, even if you feel it's not as strong as a regular M&T.

If you have a place where there will be high stress and you want to make the strongest joint, do a regular M&T. But for everything else, the Domino really makes things faster. I use mine a good bit.

Mike

[For example, when you're making a blade for a chest of drawers (the thing between two drawers that the upper drawer rides on), you could attach the four pieces with half lap joints. You don't need a lot of strength - you just need to hold everything in place. A Domino is fast in such an application. Making half laps usually takes some trial and error to get the half laps cut to the right depth. There are lots of other places where I've used a Domino. Once you have it, you start seeing a lot of applications.]

[Simon MacGowen]

I am in the game changer camp, because the DF500 did change my woodworking life. It is not about speed but efficiency. Speed is nothing if the joinery result is poor. You get more joinery work done in the same amount of shop time you have. Do you plan to make a lot of things? DF500 is used in all kinds of furniture or panel applications. If you aren't into furniture or large projects, it may not be the right tool.

"Tom Giles (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?16641-Tom-Giles) If I had $1300 to spend and my shop wasn't well stocked with tools yet I'd hold off on buying the domino. I'd buy a "few other tools to help with traditional M&T" and learn to master that part of the craft. Then I'd spend what I saved on more wood."

This is an alternative approach and only you can decide if it is right for you. It is chisel work, it is sawing work. Do you enjoy hand tools? Do you plan to spend time to develop the hand skills?

But that doesn't keep you from using DF500 as well, because hand tools and power tools are not mutually exclusive.

I sold my Mortising Machine soon after I learned how to use the Domino Joiner. Using a router and a jig to cut M&T is one approach, of course. But in terms of efficiency, it is day and night...like cutting the same 50 dovetail joints with a router and dovetail jig vs cutting them by hand.

Not to mention that Festool tools have high resale prices just in case you decide to get rid of them later.

Simon

[Jim Dwight]

I don't have a domino but it is in my "maybe one day" list. I am probably underinformed but I think of it as the only really unique tool Festool offers. I found a shoulder plane (Mine is a Stanley) VERY helpful. Trying to cut the tenons on the table saw perfectly or trim them perfectly with a chisel just didn't work great for me. So much easier to trim a little with a sharp plane. I cut mortises with a Jet hollow chisel mortiser. It works fine but I am sure there are situations I do not use a mortise and tenon joint now that I would if I had a domino. I think that is what it accomplishes. It makes it easy enough you use them where you wouldn't otherwise. I agree that I don't really need to be able to do things a lot quicker but I find that I just won't do things that take too much time. I will use another joint.

At least one of the magazines that tested joints tested a loose mortise and tenon the same size as the conventional M&T. The strength was lower but within what I would consider to be the uncertainty in their test methods. I think the difference was less than 10 lbs out of about 1400 lbs. Effectively the same. That is what it should be with modern glues. Correctly glued, there is no reason for a difference. With dominos, I think you have to work some to get the same area in the joint. Their typical 3/4 thick by 2.25 wide test piece is not an easy one to stack up the dominos in. Two dominos side by side is pretty wide for the width and stacked on top of each other there isn't really the thickness. But for most projects, I don't see any strength disadvantage for the domino. The 500 is limited to about a 1 inch deep mortise, however, which is not a lot for even a cabinet door frame. If I ever get one, I am thinking a 700 would be best, even with the significantly higher price, to get enough depth. But I could also argue I have the Jet for the bigger joints....

For around $500 you can have a decent shoulder plane and hollow chisel mortiser. If you need other tools too, I think that is a good way to go. But if you pretty much have everything you need and want a domino, go for it.

[Ben Rivel]

I have asked myself this same question many times. Still havent bought either but I keep going back and forth between the Domino 500 and a Leigh FMT Pro. Once you add all the accessories and such they are about the same cost. They also both have good dust collection options which is important to me but the one thing I really like that can be done with the Domino and not really the FMT Pro is using it like a biscuit joiner for aligning individual panels in a large glue up. That seems like a functionality I would enjoy having and like something that would make my life easier being that Im just a one man shop.

[Van Huskey]

While the 500 vs 700 wasn't part of the OP, I am in the 700 plus the Seneca adaptor and you have the capability of both the 500 and 700. The only issue is the greater heft of the 700, some fine the 500 easier to use and some find the weight and ergonomics of the 700 better. I understand that this is becoming a reall expensive hand power tool system if you go all in on the 700 and for some it will be worth it and for others it would be a silly useless stack of Systainers in the corner of the shop.

[Ben Rivel]

While the 500 vs 700 wasn't part of the OP, I am in the 700 plus the Seneca adaptor and you have the capability of both the 500 and 700. The only issue is the greater heft of the 700, some fine the 500 easier to use and some find the weight and ergonomics of the 700 better. I understand that this is becoming a reall expensive hand power tool system if you go all in on the 700 and for some it will be worth it and for others it would be a silly useless stack of Systainers in the corner of the shop.Yea I love the idea of the 700 with the Seneca adapters and accessories but then the Domino becomes a crazy expensive tool. The 500 is already way expensive as it is. The 700 with adapters might push someone already on the fence to not even bother at all with one.

[Wade Lippman]

I have never made a M&T joint except with my domino. I like to make stuff, using tools is just the way to do that. Anything that makes it easier and more accurate is wonderful. If you don't feel that way, then it probably isn't a good choice for you.

And I have never had a domino fail.
Occasionally I have had to use dowels because dominos just won't work, but that makes me unhappy.

[Van Huskey]

Yea I love the idea of the 700 with the Seneca adapters and accessories but then the Domino becomes a crazy expensive tool. The 500 is already way expensive as it is. The 700 with adapters might push someone already on the fence to not even bother at all with one.

Honestly, Festool is probably happy with that opinion, I say this since in the long run they will most likely sell the guy that buys a 500 a 700 later... I tried for a while to convince myself I didn't need the 700 but when the Seneca adaptors came out and people started to review them it became clear the 700 seemed like the clear choice for me despite the brutal upfront cost. That isn't to say the 500 isn't quite useful in itself, there was a time in history that we all had to muddle through with only a 500. :D

[Ben Rivel]

Honestly, Festool is probably happy with that opinion, I say this since in the long run they will most likely sell the guy that buys a 500 a 700 later... I tried for a while to convince myself I didn't need the 700 but when the Seneca adaptors came out and people started to review them it became clear the 700 seemed like the clear choice for me despite the brutal upfront cost. That isn't to say the 500 isn't quite useful in itself, there was a time in history that we all had to muddle through with only a 500. :DHa ha of COURSE they are! Who's debating that?! They are making a KILLING off of their tools and are enjoying the heck out of it! But money is money and usually it is the main constraint for anyone buying any of these tools. Threads like this are simply for the fun/entertainment of discussing such things. They always end up being half helpful and the other half non-paid (or possibly some compensated) Festool fans patting themselves on the back and playing salesmen for the company. And Ive taken a big drink of the green koolaid myself, so I cant talk too bad about them, but lets just call it like it is and keep it real.

[Robin Frierson]

"one thing I really like that can be done with the Domino and not really the FMT Pro is using it like a biscuit joiner for aligning individual panels in a large glue up"

You can use the Leigh for that purpose, just do the mortises, registering on the same face and it will fit fine. Just need to make you own floating tenons. The cost is a significant difference if you go used.....I suspect you could get the FMT pro for about 550 to 650 used with probably some extra bits and patterns, maybe even cheaper. There is smaller price drop off on a used domino. I have seen a number or posts where people dont use their Leigh anymore, so a Want to Buy ad will could get some responses.

There are some limitations on the Leigh, max 1/2 wide tenons and your are limited on the length of you stock in the vertical position. Sometimes you need to build a higher table top to do the tenon. Or go back to just handcutting them or use the domino.

[Van Huskey]

As a cheaper alternative one could consider the Triton dual dowel joiner, Mafell makes their version but it is the price of the Domino XL.

[Brian Henderson]

It all depends on how much you use floating tenons. I had a mortiser for years and I hardly ever used it so I ended up selling it to someone who used it a lot. Then again, if all you have is a hammer, you're going to be pounding a lot of nails, you might end up using it a lot just because you have one. Personally, I've never seen the need to own one and I have never felt like I was missing something. I just do things another way.

[Kevin Womer]

This is for the original post: Compared to the way you were making M/T with a router etc. it is much faster. As fast as you can use a biscuit joiner you can have the mortise in each piece done. What I didn't realize before I bought mine was how precise the domino is in applications. It is one of the tools I own that I would immediately replace if something happened to it. I sold my Mortiser, biscuit joiner and tenoning jig. Will I ever use the old school method again? Yes I would if a situation requires a tenon bigger than the domino can handle. I guess it's safe to say it is a game changer for me.Kevin

[Chris Padilla]

I sold my Mortiser, biscuit joiner and tenoning jig.

Also toss in the dado blade as well since I use dominos for cabinet carcass construction.

(Actually, I haven't sold any of these but I really should....)

[Van Huskey]

dado blade

But, but that's the Swiss Army knife of the shop!

[Chris Padilla]

Well I'll have to admit I broke out the dado blade (and and aux fence to bury it slightly into) to fix a problem I created because I wasn't thinking. This was last week, too, but I hadn't used it for a good year or two since then.

While I might actually one day sell the mortiser and tenoning jig, I kinda doubt I'll sell my dado blade and biscuit cutter. I do like reinforcing mitered picture frames with FF biscuits. Biscuits still have their place here and there but pretty seldom.

[Van Huskey]

Well I'll have to admit I broke out the dado blade (and and aux fence to bury it slightly into) to fix a problem I created because I wasn't thinking. This was last week, too, but I hadn't used it for a good year or two since then.

While I might actually one day sell the mortiser and tenoning jig, I kinda doubt I'll sell my dado blade and biscuit cutter. I do like reinforcing mitered picture frames with FF biscuits. Biscuits still have their place here and there but pretty seldom.

That is the problem with a lot of tools, once you get them it is hard to part with them. When you buy a different tool or machine that performs a similar function there is always that use case where the "old" tool is actually better and whether or not you ever actually need that particular use, at least for people like me, it is hard to get rid of.

[Mike Henderson]

While I might actually one day sell the mortiser and tenoning jig, I kinda doubt I'll sell my dado blade and biscuit cutter. I do like reinforcing mitered picture frames with FF biscuits. Biscuits still have their place here and there but pretty seldom.
If you want to get rid of your biscuit joiner, you can cut biscuit slots with a slot cutter. I put the slot cutter in my router table and do it. I don't use biscuits much. Mostly ff biscuits to reinforce miter joints.

Mike

[But I still haven't sold my biscuit joiner. Should get around to it - haven't used it in many years.]

[Cary Falk]

I have the router bit for biscuits and never used it. The biscuit jointer is just handier for me. I even have the Ryobi detail jointer that does the r1, r2, r3. They are very handy

[Ben Rivel]

Well I'll have to admit I broke out the dado blade (and and aux fence to bury it slightly into) to fix a problem I created because I wasn't thinking. This was last week, too, but I hadn't used it for a good year or two since then.

While I might actually one day sell the mortiser and tenoning jig, I kinda doubt I'll sell my dado blade and biscuit cutter. I do like reinforcing mitered picture frames with FF biscuits. Biscuits still have their place here and there but pretty seldom. And as inexpensive as a good biscuit joiner is, IMO its easy to justify keeping it around if you already have one just in case and just for those right times when its the ticket.

[Van Huskey]

And as inexpensive as a good biscuit joiner is, IMO its easy to justify keeping it around if you already have one just in case and just for those right times when its the ticket.

So does one keep a Lamello around or sell it?

[Ben Rivel]

So does one keep a Lamello around or sell it?Id have to say again, thatd be up to the owner and what they con personally justify. If it were me, and say it were a late model Lamello in good condition, it looks like those sell for $300-400 on ebay and that would Id consider a good chunk towards a Domino 500, so Id sell it. But then Ive never been to fond of biscuits myself, so they dont hold a "special place" in my shop.