Crowded Shop! Should I get a combo machine?

[Kevin Post]

I have a space problem which is affecting my ability to enjoy my woodworking hobby. Over the years I've accumulated a bunch of machines which are now squeezed into half of a 4-car garage (my shop).

The major list:
A Jet cabinet saw with a 52" Biesemeyer fence ('big' problem)
Jet 15" planer
Jet 6" jointer
dust collector
work bench
Delta 3HP Shaper with feeder
William & Hussey Moulder
Drill Press
router table
Delta mortiser
Delta drum sander
Jet bandsaw with riser
Old DeWalt radial arm saw
Dewalt miter saw on portable stand
DeWalt track saw
Air compressor
Rolling automotive tool cabinet
Everything is on wheels and I have 120 and 220 power outlets everywhere.

I know what you're thinking. "WHAT??? No lathe???" :-)

Now add, pallet racks I use for wood storage and assorted small power tools (sanders, saws, routers, drills) planes, jigs, loads of clamps, spray equipment and an accumulation of hardware and non-woodworking tools like wrenches, jacks.

Then, lawn equipment, fishing gear, bikes, sports gear (hockey, lacrosse, soccer), a fridge, lawn chairs, hoses and anything else the wife thinks doesn't belong in the house which usually consists of empty cardboard boxes from Amazon, Pottery Barn and various shoe deliveries. She literally throws them out the door leading into the garage from the house into a pile in the middle of the 'shop'.

There isn't enough space. When I want to work on something, first I need to clean the garage, break down the cardboard to take to recycling, clear all the junk which accumulates on every horizontal surface (table saw, radial saw table and workbench) then roll the tools I won't be using out of the way to make room for the tools I need to use, connect dust collection and power. By the time I'me ready to work, I've burned 4 hours and may work another 4 hours on a project before leaving it to do other things like mowing the lawn or fishing or the 'honey-do' list. By the time I get back to it, more cardboard has arrived and the clutter has returned. The empty floor space has now been filled with something like a dog crate Christmas decorations my sweetie decided to move to the garage in order to gain more room in a closet. I know I'm whining but my frustration is real. Long story short, I don't do much woodworking anymore despite being fortunate enough to have all this equipment. I spend most of my spare time fishing and the wife needles me about having a shop full of tools I never use. She's right! I have literally given up woodworking for the past two years; not one project besides a couple of cutting boards.

I think I may have a solution. Sell the tablesaw, planer, jointer and shaper then but a combination machine. I've heard names like Felder, Minimax, Laguna, Baileigh but I know absolutely nothing about them. I have never seen one of these machines in person nor have I found any dealer nearby who sells/services them. I have no source of information. I've heard they offer things like sliding tables and other engineering improvements which make them safer to use. I've also heard they're pretty expensive.

My theory… If I can sell 4 large machines (tablesaw, planer, jointer and shaper (and moulder?)) and replace them with 1 combo machine which can remained parked centrally in the space I'll make better use of the space I have and hopefully improve my productivity with a better machine. Thoughts?

-Where can I see and touch them? Who sells them?
-How much would I have to spend to get a 'good machine'?
-Do any of you guys have any of these machines? (Things you like/don't like?)

[Jim Andrew]

I would lock up my shop and not give my wife a key if she threw all the refuse into it.

[Matt Day]

First make sure you need all the stuff you have. How often do you use your mortiser? Do you need a RAS and SCMS?

Pics of your shop would help too.

[Kevin Post]

She would then lock me in the shop. :) Unfortunately, the other two stalls of this four-car, attached garage are where we park our vehicles so locking her out isn't an option. In fairness, the space issue isn't all her fault but it is still frustrating when she simply moves things out to the garage/shop and leaves it to me to figure out what to do with then. Often, the solution is simply to move the stuff back into the house and jam it into one of the closets again, "How did you like that, sweetie? Your move..." :p

Combo machines... (not wife-bashing). :)

[Andrew Howe]

P lus one on a locked shop. That is pretty disrespectful. AS for the tools, yes sell it all and go with festool. THIS what I am thinking of doing.

[Jim Becker]

Combination machines can be a solution for what you propose as long as you can position the unit such that you have adequate infeed and outfeed space to support them, particularly for the wagon of the sliding table saw. For an 8'6" slider, you'll need about 19-20' total for the entire end-to-end throw of the slider. That's doable in most shops of the size you have. And given that the jointer/thicknesser capacities are generally wider than many folks typically have with separates, there are functional advantages to the combo machine, too.

That said, there is also a learning curve for the slider (not a big deal, but something that needs to be part of the plan) as well as workflow habits to be established to optimize movement between the machine functions.

For my particular shop, I went with a separate J/P and a sliding table saw because of space constraints. And I'm very pleased with everything. My gear is from MiniMax.

[Kevin Post]

First make sure you need all the stuff you have. How often do you use your mortiser? Do you need a RAS and SCMS?

1) Believe it or not, I use (or used, rather) the mortiser a bunch. It's a bench-top unit I store on a shelf, not a floor-standing machine.
2) The miter saw isn't a SCMS, just a 12" chop saw I use more for home improve projects (trim carpentry, decks) than WWing. It's on a mobile/fold-up stand tucked out of the way.
3) The DeWalt RAS is older than me and belonged to my dad. I rarely use it except for quick cross-cuts. I did use it to cut some tenons for a post/beam picnic shelter I helped build about 10 years ago. Otherwise, it sits in a corner of the 'garage side' of the garage behind the snow-blower. It's not technically in the shop. I've tried selling it and even offered to give it away a couple of times but nobody seems to want it given the capabilities provided by a SCMS (safer too) + a table saw. It isn't a tool which is highly sought-after or widely used anymore but I can't simply throw it away.

Thanks for the thoughtful questions. In response to the line of reasoning behind your questions...of course I could sell other stuff but the table saw is the big target for me. I don't need that long fence or large table on my cabinet saw after discovering how easily I can break down sheet goods using a track saw. That's the main reason I'd considered trading it for something smaller. When I started researching table saws, I came across a sliding table saw then stumbled upon a web page featuring a MiniMax 5-in-1 combo tool and the light-bulb came on. That's primarily what I'm inquiring about...those combo machines.

-Kevin

[Kevin Post]

...you have adequate infeed and outfeed space to support them, particularly for the wagon of the sliding table saw. For an 8'6" slider, you'll need about 19-20' total for the entire end-to-end throw of the slider.

Thanks, Jim. I considered that but knowing about how much is needed for that slider is helpful. I think I'd have enough space plus I envisioned gaining some efficiency by not shifting other tools around and out of the way to gain the necessary in-feed and out-feed for planing, jointing, ripping, moulding tasks. My assumption is with a combination machine like the MiniMax and others, that in-feed/out-feed path is shared in common rather than in conflict with each of those tasks. I figured could park it in the middle and perhaps even position it diagonally to get maximum end-to-end clearance.

I think my biggest issue is with the size of the extended table and fence on the cabinet saw. The two issues, a) it's always in the way, b) the horizontal surface provides a landing-zone for clutter. I could opt for a different fence and table but keep the saw. I'm just curious about whether the combo machine would prove to be a better solution and allow me to get rid of four individual stationary machines.

Since you have gear from MiniMax, how are those machines sold? Dealers or direct? You're in PA and I'm in Wisconsin so dealer recommendations won't do me any good but are there competing dealers or are you simply stuck with the price you get on one of these? I also read that they don't simply ship them to you, they send someone to install and set it up. Is this true?

[Andy Giddings]

My answer would be yes to a Combo - love mine and takes less space in terms of footprint. Most combos these days are very quick to switch between functions. There are quite a few threads on here about the different brands - you really can't go wrong with any of the market leaders but can easily spend months agonizing about which one to get :-)

[Don Jarvie]

Before you sell anything consider building or buying a shed to hold all the non shop items. Also search this site and the next for pictures of other people's shops and see if you can try to maximize your space.

[Andy Giddings]

Kevin, if you are interested, a CF741 combo machine has just gone up for sale in the Felder Owners Group for $17.5k (new was $25k). Machine was purchased in 2012

[Jim Becker]

Since you have gear from MiniMax, how are those machines sold? Dealers or direct? You're in PA and I'm in Wisconsin so dealer recommendations won't do me any good but are there competing dealers or are you simply stuck with the price you get on one of these? I also read that they don't simply ship them to you, they send someone to install and set it up. Is this true?


MiniMax/SCM sells direct in the US. Sam Blasco (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?3847-Sam-Blasco), a member here at SMC, is your friendly MiniMax/SMC rep. :) He's also a craftsman, trainer and outstanding "jig maker". One thing he can do is help you locate others in your area who have machines and will allow you to take a look. They might not have the same machine or machines you might be considering, but it will help you see the quality and so forth and also get candid comments from an actual owner/user. I've had a number of folks visit here who were considering purchases. Other manufacturers, such as Felder, will likely be able to do the same for you.

As to installation...yes, you can pay a fee to have someone install Euro machinery, but honestly, it's not absolutely necessary to do that. Un-crating, cleaning and implementing the machinery is a great way to get to know it "intimately" and there's not all that much "setup" to do, in my experience. For my slider, I picked it up at the trucking company docks (they loaded it on my trailer with a forklift) and brought it to the shop. With some help from a few friends (coffee and donuts supplied... ;) ), it was moved into my shop and put in place. A pallet jack took care of the final placement. (Theres a pictorial thread here at SMC about that)

[Eric Rimel]

Pretty sure every person working out of a garage has some of the same issues. I'm not a combo machine 'brasher', but I know how I work and breaking down set-ups before a complete process in a project is done is a 'no-no' in my world. I can't imagine sharing a tablesaw fence with a router set in the outfeed or side table so swapping jointer/planer/tablesaw obviously wouldn't work well for me. I sometimes get whole consecutive days of shop time. Sometimes only a couple hours. I think I'm more productive with stand-alone machines. I can leave things set up if/when I need to.


I'd clean the space, buy a shed, put that radial arm saw and lawn/garden tools in it and put a recycling space in its place, re-evaluate after you've maximized the space you have. I'd also park my car outside if I had to.

[Jim Becker]

Eric, in my experience, there's very little time between setups and with good workflow planning for a project, that doesn't really interfere much. For folks who do find it constraining, a J/P combo and slider or saw/shaper separately can work very well. That's how my shop is setup. I thought I might get frustrated originally since like you, I have very limited shop time, but it's never actually been an issue.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/a-j-adopt/shop/IMG_3739_zpsyfsgydr5.jpg

[Cary Falk]

Combo machines do not fit the way I work. I have 1/3 of a 3 car garage. I have all of the equipment plus a lathe. Everything is on wheels. Household stuff in the Rubbermaid shed. I feel your pain. I make it work.

[jack duren]

I used my 2 car garage to build cabinets for a living for two years. I have pretty much what you have in the garage, You made a comment of clearing "junk".

There is your problem.. Your not efficient with the space you have. You don't need a different machine but a good shop cleaning. Better organizing skills....

[Andy Giddings]

Agree with Jim - switching between functions is quick and pain free. Probably the slowest change is getting the shaper set up. Most of that is cutter height as fence depth can be made repeatable with the micro adjust fence and precision locators that are used to put the fence in place. Even the cutter height can be made repeatable by noting the spacers used and the spindle height reading. I think most of us use a workflow regardless of whether its separates or a combo so its not that much of a change IMHO

[Fred Falgiano]

Before you sell anything consider building or buying a shed to hold all the non shop items. Also search this site and the next for pictures of other people's shops and see if you can try to maximize your space.

Yep to Don's idea.

Also check out this link for mighty shelves. Free ideas on how to increase garage storage. I've built several sets of these and if you have high ceilings, you can add hundreds of square feet of storage to a garage/workshop that's up and out of the way.

http://contractorkurt.com/2012/02/18/overhead-garage-mightyshelves/

[Al Launier]

Simple solution: Stop buying stuff in boxes! ;)
Seriously, since you haven't done any woodworkin projects in the last two years, it appears your interest in woodworking is less important to you these days. So, it seems you need to make a choice:

Expand your shop, if you really want to continue woodworking,
Build some overhead head framework to store your wood & other seldom used tools. These can be made from 2x4s & hung from the ceiling joists and still provide adequate head clearance. I store most of my lumber this way.
Have a serious talk with your wife about your concerns & work out a mutual agreement that supports both of your needs.


Oops! I hadn't read Fred's post. Guess we were both on the same wave length, but my "hangers aren't as elaborate as what he showed. I just used a simple framework of 2 bys bolted together.

[Van Huskey]

I have nothing against combo machines and I am sure I could tailor my workflow to them quickly if I wanted or needed to and I am sure the OP can as well.

One other option if the clutter in the garage can't be urged is to rent a small storage unit, if you think about it they are actually cheap for the extra sqaure footage they provide. The other thing is pack it full of stuff and in a year everything that hasn't been touched gets carted to the dump or Goodwill.

Honestly, in a tight shop but with a lot of machine capablity you have the option of rolling machines in and out of place or changing over a combo machine. I don;t see a lot of difference but would choose a QUALITY combo machine if starting from scratch in a tight workspace. My suggestion is since you have machines (and I assume you are happy with them) clean and organize first and see where that gets you.

If you are just looking for an excuse then combo machines are the best thing since sliced bread and you would be silly not to buy them NOW.

[Kevin Post]

Regarding the shed and parking outside suggestions, the covenants in my neighborhood do not permit parking vehicles outside, out-buildings or garden sheds. My shop is also a garage with cars, bikes, sporting goods, lawn chairs, garbage cans, recycling bins, lawn mower, wheel barrow, shovels, rakes, ladders and myriad of other tools not for woodworking (e.g. plumbing, electrical, masonry, tile). All of this stuff gets used and moved around. Lawn chairs and boating gear go into the attic space during winter. The lawn mower, rakes and trimmer get tucked out of the way in winter and the snow shovels and snow-blower come out of their corner. It's a bit like the flight deck on an aircraft carrier (cramped and busy) without a crew to help. When there is open space, since nature abhors a vacuum, naturally it gets filled quickly.

With all due respect, the comments about getting organized are sort-of "Well, duh... Thanks!" :rolleyes: obvious. That is, after all, my ultimate goal. I'm trying to make better use of the space I have and part of getting organized might be to change up the tools I use. You may recall my original post, "My theory… If I can sell 4 large machines (tablesaw, planer, jointer and shaper (and moulder?)) and replace them with 1 combo machine which can remained parked centrally in the space I'll make better use of the space I have and hopefully improve my productivity with a better machine. Thoughts? "

For those offering suggestions... Thanks (really), but I'm really not looking for marital advice. I already have overhead storage of the type Fred and Al suggested over both double-garage doors (an idea I got here years ago, I think). Great idea... I've installed cabinets I scrounged from a hospital remodel for finishing supplies, automotive and marine supplies, pesticides, sand paper, etc. I have clamp racks on the walls along with storage for saw blades, shaper cutters, chisels. I have steel pallet racks where I store lumber (I have a lot). It is stacked on the top shelf to preserve floor space, boxed tools (jigs, track saw, routers, jig saw, drills, sanders, biscuit jointer, etc) are stored on the middle shelf within my reach. Floor-standing machines on mobile bases get rolled into the ground-floor space beneath these racks.

My original question was about the idea of acquiring a combination machine to replace several large stationary tools. It was directed at people who own or use them to determine whether my idea about gaining space and gaining productivity through the use of such a machine has merit. Jim Becker has taken time to provide some answers in this regard. Others have pointed out the challenges of changing over setups. I'd like to hear more about this.

Maybe a combination machine is not the way to go. I'd like to hear more from owners and people who have used them.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I replaced a General cabinet saw, jointer, planer and shaper with a Hammer 12" jointer/planer and a Hammer B3 Winner saw/shaper with the comfort package and the 50 inch sliding table.

The above really saved space in my townhouse basement shop, and dramatically improved the capacity, safety, accuracy and convenience with respect to machine operations.

If you have unlimited space and money, separates are better, if not combination machines provide far more features and benefits, including capacity than separates. Very few of us own a 12" or 16" standard jointer, yet they're the most common size for combo machines.

You couldn't convince me to go back to NA style machinery for compact shops..........Regards, Rod.

P.S. A small slider like mine has a smaller footprint that a cabinet saw, yet drop on the outrigger and I can crosscut a sheet of plywood with one finger, and have a scoring saw to boot for chip free cuts. Take 2 minutes and the outrigger is off and hung on the shop wall, no need for a RAS or a CMS, the slider does it all and more.

[Wade Lippman]

If it were me, I would get rid of the shaper, molder, and RAS; and put my router table into my table saw.

You would save a huge amount of space. I'd love to have a shaper, but for the once in a while a router table isn't adequate, I just can't justify it. Of course, you might need it daily.

I actually went to the LasVegas show about 8 years ago to shop for combo machines because I had such a small shop. All the dealers told me that they weren't practical in small shops because you need room all around them. Obviously that isn't everyone's experience, but it is why I went with separates.

[Dave Macy]

I don't have much room in my parent's garage. They have a two car garage and I get about 1/4 of it. Everything is on wheels and I'm using a jointer/planer combo and it works great. It's nice and quiet especially compared to our neighbors 735.

[glenn bradley]

Move the RAS, CMS and shaper into the kitchen. Seriously, you do have a lot of stuff for your footprint. Choosing the tools to keep will be a personal challenge. My CMS lives out in the shed as it is primarily a construction tool for me and therefor can't earn its keep where I make furniture. The RAS and I parted company long ago after a serious conversation about usefulness versus real estate requirements. Unless you make a lot of dados that are within the capacity of your RAS I would tag that as the next most likely tool I could live without. The shaper follows closely behind unless I am doing beaucoup lineal feet of a given profile . . . and I am not.

I can already hear the howls from those who cannot live without their RAS or CMS or shaper. You need to determine if you are one of these folks or not. Believe me I would kick and scream if you tried to get my router table, bandsaw, shoulder plane, spoke shaves or other items I consider essential. We all have certain tools that are indispensable to how we have decided to do certain tasks. I base my approach to a given task based on the tools I know I will use for it. If the RAS, CMS and shaper are your go-to's then you have to pay the price in real estate; let go of something else.

I enjoy separates for the jointing and planing tasks but, this is mostly habit seasoned by the price for a combo that I feel meets the quality of the separates. Don't get me wrong, things like the Hammer A3-31 are appropriately priced. If I didn't already own machines that are likely to follow me to the tomb I would seriously consider 'going there' if space demanded it.

P.s. Bear in mind that all this blathering comes from someone who:
A. Has never put a car in a garage; why would someone do that!?!
B. Has an extremely low tolerance for ANYTHING being in the shop that does not belong in the shop; OK, the water heater pretty much has to stay and doesn't really get in the way.
C. Is looking to add an additional shed to the back yard for more non-shop storage as the kitchen is getting crowded; OK, I made that last part up ;-)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

MiniMax/SCM sells direct in the US. Sam Blasco (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?3847-Sam-Blasco), a member here at SMC, is your friendly MiniMax/SMC rep. :) He's also a craftsman, trainer and outstanding "jig maker". One thing he can do is help you locate others in your area who have machines and will allow you to take a look. They might not have the same machine or machines you might be considering, but it will help you see the quality and so forth and also get candid comments from an actual owner/user. I've had a number of folks visit here who were considering purchases. Other manufacturers, such as Felder, will likely be able to do the same for you.

As to installation...yes, you can pay a fee to have someone install Euro machinery, but honestly, it's not absolutely necessary to do that. Un-crating, cleaning and implementing the machinery is a great way to get to know it "intimately" and there's not all that much "setup" to do, in my experience. For my slider, I picked it up at the trucking company docks (they loaded it on my trailer with a forklift) and brought it to the shop. With some help from a few friends (coffee and donuts supplied... ;) ), it was moved into my shop and put in place. A pallet jack took care of the final placement. (Theres a pictorial thread here at SMC about that)

Jim....Sam is no longer employed by Mini-Max. He's working for a wood company now IIRC. This change just took place a few weeks ago.

[Geoff Crimmins]

Jim....Sam is no longer employed by Mini-Max. He's working for a wood company now IIRC. This change just took place a few weeks ago.

Ken, are you sure you're not thinkingof Erik Loza? Or did Sam also leave Minimax?


--Geoff

[Robert Engel]

Before you sell anything consider building or buying a shed to hold all the non shop items. Also search this site and the next for pictures of other people's shops and see if you can try to maximize your space.
Beat me to it!!

[Jim Becker]

Jim....Sam is no longer employed by Mini-Max. He's working for a wood company now IIRC. This change just took place a few weeks ago.
That's Erik who has the new job... ;)

[Peter Kelly]

http://fms.felder-group.com/+Newsletter_2016/W_NL_ending_soon_USA/C331_teil2.jpg

That said, I believe the LAB300 Plus from MiniMax retails for around the same price.
https://www.scmgroup.com/en/products/classical-machines.c884/universal-combined-machines.887/lab-300-plus.647

Sam is still with MiniMax / SCM North America. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?3847-Sam-Blasco

[Mike Cutler]

Kevin

- Yes, you will save space, as long as it is movable.
-Some of the machines do have panel sliders, so when they are in use, they have a pretty big footprint.
- The challenges in changing over the machines on a combo unit are pretty much dependent on the quality of the machine. It's not hard.
- The way you work will need to change. You will want to plan out your projects so that machine swaps are minimized. It's not that difficult though, you just need to work on the milling sequence, and do all of the material in "runs" on each machine.
- They do have some significant power requirements. The quality models have multiple 3-5HP motors, so that can be a limiting factor for people, when added to a DC power requirements. 6-10 HP in motors, and lighting requirements, can be a little beyond most garages.
- I think the biggest inhibitor is the price. They have a pretty significant upfront cost, which is probably why more people don't start out with one, but may get to a point where they finally make the break. I know I have been seriously considering one for the same reasons as you, space. All of my machines, except the drill press and drum sander, are in 9'x19' space. ( 2 Table saws, 2 band saws, shaper, jointer, 15" planer, a miter saw station, Benchtop mortiser, and the DC in the winter. )
- I don't park my cars outside. They're parked in the garage. My shop is the third bay of my garage. If I had to share my shop space with cars, I probably would have gone combo machine many years ago.
- I personally do not own one, but I have used them. I used a Rojek, I think, which seemed like a nice machine. I didn't have any problems with it.
-I would try and see if anyone on the forum has one, within driving distance of you, that can show you the workings. That way you can get an idea if it will fit your style of wood working.

[Sam Blasco]

Kevin,
I made the leap to a full combo in the early 2000s before I started representing Minimax. I had a 900 sq/ft, one man custom cabinet shop with all the standard equipment we all grew up with and consider essential (Cabinet saw, 6" Jointer, 15" planer, SCMS, etc.). Everything was on wheels, stored and pulled out as needed). Coming from the production world I really wanted a sliding table saw, but that would have completely killed my space. I took the combo leap after about 3 months of wrestling with the idea, and after a year with the machine I was pleasantly surprised that my change over times between functions and set ups were actually less with the combo than with the separate machines. All these years later, I am still a one man operation, but now in a 3000 sq/ft shop and still prefer a combo. It frees up my space for extra workbenches, work surfaces, storage. When I moved into this new shop in 2008 I considered selling the combo and getting two separate combos (saw/shaper, jointer/planer/mortiser). But when I did the planning and punched things into my space I would have had to give up one workbench to make that happen. When I considered the time needed for an average furniture project, the breakdown for me is: 25% of the time is for milling, dimensioning and cutting parts & 75% of the time is spent on a workbench (pre-sanding, assembly, applying, finish sanding, hardware, and don't even get me started about the time required for applying a finish, or worse, a color and a finish). It was a no brainer for where I wanted to allocate my resources. For me, the 2 minutes I might gain per project due to a bit more convenient functional changeover just didn't make sense, compared to the hours I might lose not having that extra bench. Especially considering all the modifications I had made to my current combo to make it fit my work like a glove. Don't want to have to do that again.

I don't want to get into too many details for fear of boring too many, but I could go on, and on... I would be happy to talk about my experiences with you to see if a combo is a good solution for you, and if so, which level, etc.

[Jim Becker]

I don't want to get into too many details for fear of boring too many, but I could go on, and on...

Oh, pu-lease! "Bore" us with your experiences! Seriously, I think a lot of folks still have many misconceptions about combos and may not understand some of the advantages that these Euro machines have over "traditional" machines in precision, repeatability, safety, etc. It's true they are not for "everybody", but I do think that more folks could take advantage than do.