GFI Puzzle

[Doug Hepler]

My Jet DC-1100VX-CK dust collector is connected to power through a remotely switched outlet (PSI Long Ranger). Occasionally, unpredictably, my GFI breaker trips after I have turned off the switched outlet and the dust collector motor has nearly stopped. As the motor slows down, there is an audible click, I suppose a relay operating (starter relay closing?). When the breaker trips, it is always simultaneous with this click, but the breaker tripping does not happen every time.

This is not an overload problem because the BS and DC start and run well together on that branch. When the breaker trips they are both off. Also the lathe and DC run together on that branch. I initially blamed the remote outlet and PSI replaced it. That was not the problem. I consulted an electrician, who said that he thought that it was the GFI not the overload protection

So, how does a motor that has been disconnected from a branch circuit trip the GFI on that branch? I suppose that the remote switch just interrupts the hot side of the supply. How does the relay on the motor cause an imbalance to trip the GFI?

As I said, a puzzle.

Doug

[Arthur Fleming]

Just a guess here, but it's exactly because the relay only breaks one side of the load that's causing the problem. The GFI measures the amps leaving and returning, and opens when there is a ??milliamp discrepancy. It's supposed to open when more current leaves, than returns, as in someone getting a shock, thus protecting them. I'm guessing that as the motor is winding down the coils are inducing a voltage/current, and the GFI is sensing an imbalance from the neutral, and opening. I am an electrician, but not an electrical engineer, so this is just a guess. If you had a remote switch that opened both sides of the circuit, it would be interesting to see if it still occurred. If the remote switch is removed from the circuit does it still occur? Artie

[Bill Orbine]

I would think that the centrifugal start switch (the click noise you hear) might be the culprit. My thinking is the CFS has a pair of contact switches that may close/open at a slightly different time just enough at times to trip the GFI. I'm talking milliseconds difference in time.

[Jeff Fischer]

I had a floor standing fan on the back porch that was plugged in to a GFCI. When the wind blew and the fan blades turned (while the power was off), it would trip the GFCI. Moved the fan to a standard outlet, no more problem. I think it was generating a little current, somehow, I'm just not sure of the theory. I bought a different model fan and it was ok.

[sean meltvedt]

Doug-I would say that Artie is spot on. Try using a double pole relay to break both the hot and the neutral at the same time. I believe you will find that cures your tripping issue.
Happy sawdust
Sean

[Mike Henderson]

Just a guess here, but it's exactly because the relay only breaks one side of the load that's causing the problem. The GFI measures the amps leaving and returning, and opens when there is a ??milliamp discrepancy. It's supposed to open when more current leaves, than returns, as in someone getting a shock, thus protecting them. I'm guessing that as the motor is winding down the coils are inducing a voltage/current, and the GFI is sensing an imbalance from the neutral, and opening. I am an electrician, but not an electrical engineer, so this is just a guess. If you had a remote switch that opened both sides of the circuit, it would be interesting to see if it still occurred. If the remote switch is removed from the circuit does it still occur? Artie
I vote for Artie also. A GFCI measures the total amount of current, which normally sums to zero (two wires - black and white). If you break one wire it should not allow current to flow on the other wire (not a complete circuit) but perhaps the starting capacitor is charged and somehow discharges between ground and the neutral. That would give you current on the white wire and not on the black (ground is not monitored in a GFCI) and would cause it to trip.

Sean's suggestion of a two pole switch should fix that.

Mike

[Doug Hepler]

Ok, guys, thanks for your advice. I think Artie is spot on, also. I was speculating along those lines, but I didn't (don't) know enough to be confident.

So, I have done some preliminary searches on line but have not found anything that looks like what I want. The commonly-available remote switches don't say whether they are DPST. Can you recommend a product or at least a trade designation so I can know what to search for? I'd prefer something that plugs into the wall and that the DC can plug into.

Another approach would be to suspect the GFCI but I replaced the whole entry panel 3 years ago when I moved in. Are there "flavors" of GFCI breakers?

Doug

[Mike Henderson]

Ok, guys, thanks for your advice. I think Artie is spot on, also. I was speculating along those lines, but I didn't (don't) know enough to be confident.

So, I have done some preliminary searches on line but have not found anything that looks like what I want. The commonly-available remote switches don't say whether they are DPST. Can you recommend a product or at least a trade designation so I can know what to search for? I'd prefer something that plugs into the wall and that the DC can plug into.

Another approach would be to suspect the GFCI but I replaced the whole entry panel 3 years ago when I moved in. Are there "flavors" of GFCI breakers?

Doug
Your remote control controls a 120V circuit. Get a 120 volt two pole contactor. Use your remote control stuff to control the contactor and it will engage and disengage both sides of the power that's going to your dust collector. That is, when you use your remote to turn your DC on, what you'll really be doing is causing the contactor to engage, which will turn the power on to your DC.

Artie may even be able to explain it better since he's an electrician. Artie - want to give it a shot?

Mike

[Doug Hepler]

Mike,

Thanks. I understand the problem. I just don't know how to implement the solution. So far I have not found the product I need. I searched for "contactor" but I don't understand how to wire it. Most of them say they have a 24 V coil. What's that about?

Doug

[John K Jordan]

Mike,

Thanks. I understand the problem. I just don't know how to implement the solution. So far I have not found the product I need. I searched for "contactor" but I don't understand how to wire it. Most of them say they have a 24 V coil. What's that about?

Doug

Doug, a contactor is just a relay. The "coil" is the control winding, an electromagnet which hold down the main contact points inside the contactor. 24 volts is a common voltage used for low voltage control applications.

I use a big contactor to switch my cyclone dust collector with a radio controlled remote. The control winding (the "coil") on my contactor is 110v instead of 24v and it switches two legs of 220v power rated for a 5hp motor. That's a bigger contactor than you would need but you could use an oversized one. If you go the contactor route just ask about the wiring and sourcing - I think you can get them from Amazon.

Am I to understand your DC runs on 110v? If so:

The control line is isolated from the switched lines in a contactor. With your setup you could simply wire a cord from the two control terminals of the contactor and plug it into the remotely switched outlet. Then separately, run both the white and black lines of any 110v circuit through both poles of the contactor and on to your dust collector. You could just cut the cord on the DC and put the contactor inline. I would probably keep the original cord and plug it into a new 110v receptacle controled by the contactor with a new piece off 110v cord and plug powering the two poles of the contactor.

I would probably test this first to prove it will work by wiring up a couple of light switches and when shutting down the DC disconnect both the black and neutral wires but leave the ground wire intact. This might eliminate the unlikely possibility of some other issue, such as induction in parallel wiring generating a rogue current from the magnetic field collapse in the motor at shutdown. Unlikely, but conceivable.

JKJ

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,

Thanks. I understand the problem. I just don't know how to implement the solution. So far I have not found the product I need. I searched for "contactor" but I don't understand how to wire it. Most of them say they have a 24 V coil. What's that about?

Doug

Go to eBay and search on "120 volt contactor". The first one that came up when I searched was about $12 - item number 321868591906.

Mike

[Arthur Fleming]

Hi, I made a longwinded explanation of how it works, how to wire it, and apparently hit the wrong button because it isn't here. (I can be very technologically challenged sometimes). So to not try and type all that again, Doug we may have some used parts in the shop, if I made up a (what I believe to be) cure for this problem, would me making it out of used parts bother you? It would be a 4 inch square box with a cord having a male end coming out of one side (this would plug into the remote controlled receptacle) and a cord coming out of the other side of the box. This would have a female end on it, into which your machine would plug into it. Artie

[Doug Hepler]

Artie,

That sounds just like what I need. I will send you a PM.

Doug

[sean meltvedt]

Guys-this is what makes this a great forum! Thanks to all
Sean

[Arthur Fleming]

Well electrical is what I do know about. I work for a public entity (I prefer to leave un-named LOL) and there are lots of used (already paid for) parts available. I guess this could serve as a sorta intro for me. I found this site getting info on cnc machines, a dream that has financially disappeared :(. I live in a townhouse, and have at most a 13 foot, by 15 foot, work shop foot print available in the basement. My main machine is gonna be a Shopsmith, space will allow for no other real options, and after seeing one, I think they're kinda cool, anyways. I'm hoping to have the shop up and making sawdust by end of February. (My first estimate was June of this year LOL) So I'm sure I will be asking many, many questions here in the near future. I have been reading lots of interesting posts/threads here, and I was impressed by how on most of them the disagreeing opinions were put forth, but politely, and respectfully. I have been on ther various other forums where this not always the case LOL. So I'm hoping/planning on being a more active member here in the future. Hi All. Artie

[John K Jordan]

Hi, I made a longwinded explanation of how it works, how to wire it, and apparently hit the wrong button because it isn't here. ...

Yikes, that's frustrating. I've had SMC mysteriously forget message text I've spent a lot of time on, especially if I switch briefly to another tab in the browser or use another application. For protection, I've learned to hit Ctl-A/Ctl-C to quickly select and copy the text to the Clipboard before doing ANYTHING else or clicking on any buttons, even the Post or Preview buttons. If I use another tab to find a link or text to copy and paste in a message it would overwrite what I have in the Clipboard so I open Notepad, paste the message so far there, then get my link. That way if the message disappears I have a copy at hand.

BTW, the dumbest mistake I've made (dumb because I've done it twice) is compose a message then for some reason click the "+Reply to Thread" button instead of the Post. Sometimes "back" doesn't. The second dumbest thing I've done to make a message disappear is do a preview then get distracted and forget to actually post it. :-( Later I wonder, where is that message!

JKJ

[Doug Hepler]

Sean and Artie -- yes, that's what makes SMC special. I actually started out on another forum but I got tired of the trolls. The mods here do a much better job of keeping the discussions on a professional level.

BTW Artie you're a prince

Doug

[Arthur Fleming]

Well last night as I was in the basement, doing laundry (I'm not that nice a guy, the Missus is recuperating from some surgery, stairs are still offlimits) (I did learn that they are less than happy if you put their bra's in the dryer LOL) I was thinking about the problem, and it dawned on me that the remote controlled switch part of the equation is probably a nonstarter. I sincerely doubt that the on/off switch on the dust collector is a two pole switch either, so if you turned off the DC using it's switch, there should still be a wind down, inducing back fed currents. Like Bill said previously the click sound is most likely the centrifugal switch opening, sending the induced current through the starting windings (more powerfull), instead of the running windings. This would send a larger current back to the gfi. This is why there are time delay fuses for motors. The relay should still eliminate this, but it would seem that this should happen regardless of whether the remote controlled receptacle is used. So Doug apparently you and your DC are the going to be the main part of this science project LOL. How often does the DC usually trip the gfi? 50% of the time? 25% of the time? Just often enough to be an irritation? Wondering how long it will need to go without tripping before we judge this a success. Maybe I should just stop laundry LOL. Artie

[Doug Hepler]

Artie,

It happens just often enough to be a nuisance, but it seems the intervals are random. It will go for 10 or more cycles without tripping the breaker and then trip the breaker every other cycle for a while, and so on. As far as I can recall (aging brain) this did not happen once for the months that I was operating the switch on the DC itself. It started after I installed the remote. At first, I blamed the remote and got a replacement, but that did not correct the problem.

I can't tell, but the switch on the DC is heavy-looking. Maybe it is a DP switch. I can ask Jet customer service.

Your original theory is still worth a try. If making a contactor becomes more trouble than it's worth for you, I'll be glad to buy one if somebody will tell me what product to ask for. I was confused by the lower voltage for the coil on the ones I saw. It sounded as if they needed a secondary 12- or 24-V external circuit to operate the coil in addition to the main 115V circuit being switched. As I said before, I understand the theory but not the practical realities.

Happy laundry. You still have a lot to learn, I see.

Doug

[Rick Christopherson]

I've avoided commenting on this until now, but I think this needs to be clarified as to the cause before someone starts chasing money.

The reason the GFI is tripping is not because there is a single pole disconnect. If that were the case, it would do it all the time, and as soon as the switch was opened.

The reason this occurs when he hears the centrifugal switch re-engage, is because the start winding in the motor has stored magnetic energy, and the switch closes to permit this to suddenly drain back into the system. It is an unexpected current that did not originate from the mains.

A GFI uses a differential amplifier to detect the imbalance in lines, which is extremely sensitive to a difference between its lines. A sudden phase shift will cause an inexpensive GFI to trip. The easiest solution is to use a higher grade GFI, or remove the GFI completely from the particular receptacle. While installing a 2-pole contactor would fix the problem regardless of cause, it does over complicate the issue.

[Arthur Fleming]

Doug, making this is easy, and actually will be a little fun, also I'm curious to see if this fixes the problem. I'm hoping to get it completed tomorrow, but with that being election day (thankfully!) things could get busy (We're responsible for the voting booths staying powered). This sounds like a circumstance that could occur somewhat often so I'm interested in seeing if this works. If you're game to using it, and letting us know what happens, I'm game for making it, and getting it to you. Does your DC have the option to be wired for 220 volts? If so, there is a much greater chance the on/off mechanism/switch is a two pole type. As for the laundry, my experience as a husband is, if you are real good at something, you will always have to do it :). Artie

[Arthur Fleming]

Rick I'm thinking we're saying the same thing, but differently. Yes it would seem that it should happen all the time. He has a gfi breaker (I believe he said in the first post) these are usually a better gfi than the receptacles in my experience. Swapping the breaker out for a regular breaker should indeed solve this issue, but it is probably removing gfi protection that is code mandated. (Here in Mass. they pass the state Code as law, so it is actually illegal to do so). Making an isolating relay seems to be a pretty easy fix, if I'm correct on what's happening. I may not be, but this will give certain proof of that if it doesn't work. Various factors that could affect why it's an intermittent condition could be voltage drop, other machines running on the same circuit while the DC is being shut-off, absorbing any induced back current. I think I can scavenge the parts, and get them to Doug, cheaper than the cost of a new gfi breaker (and maybe the cost of an electrician to install it, depending on Dougs electrical skills. They are more difficult to install than a standard breaker). On forums I am very loathe to give any electrical advice unless I am sure it can't make the situation any worse. I can't see this fix adding anything negative to Dougs situation. If I'm wrong the DC should continue to operate as it's currently doing so, and if I'm right, should stop the nuisance trips. I'm guessing the panel is not in the same room as the equipment. Not having any knowledge of Doug's work shop, a simple test could be to plug a drop light into the same outlet as the remote controlled receptacle is plugged into, and leaving it on while the DC is in operation, and only turning it off after the DC motor has completely stopped turning. I would guess that the light bulb would absorb any back feeding currents. On a separate note, I'm about to go down to the basement and add a sub panel for my (hopefully) forthcoming workshop :)

[Mike Henderson]

The reason this occurs when he hears the centrifugal switch re-engage, is because the start winding in the motor has stored magnetic energy, and the switch closes to permit this to suddenly drain back into the system. It is an unexpected current that did not originate from the mains.

To clarify Rick's comment just a bit, it's unlikely that the starting winding has any stored magnetic energy. A coil cannot store energy for any appreciable length of time. As soon as current stops flowing in the coil, the magnetic field collapses and can self induce continued current flow. But that happens very quickly and the starting coil has been disconnected from the circuit for a very long time by the time the motor is turned off.

However, in the starting circuit is a capacitor, which can store energy for a very long time. If that discharges (somehow) when the centrifugal switch closes, it can send current someplace.

But that someplace is a problem. For current to flow, you must have a complete circuit. So if you have a capacitor and you touch one pole of the capacitor, you will not be shocked because the current must flow from that pole, through you, to the other pole.

Since the black line has been broken by the time the centrifugal switch cuts in, the only way current could flow in the white line is if there's an arc across the black line switch points, or if the current flows between the white (neutral) and ground.

We're always warned about handing a starting capacitor if disconnecting it shortly after running the motor because it could still have a charge. That's because when the motor is turned off (one line or two) the capacitor may not be able to discharge.

Mike

[Doug Hepler]

Artie, There is "always" at least one lamp on the same branch as the DC and remote switch to illuminate whatever I am doing. [Edit: Yes the DC can be wired for 220V.]

Rick, I'm game to try the DP contactor solution that Artie has proposed. If that does not work, I will explore a new breaker as the solution. I am not up to swapping the breaker myself and would not know what to get, anyway. So trying a contactor would be the cheaper alternative at this point. GFCI in garages is code in Golden AFAIK and I won't ask an electrician to violate it.

Doesn't this theory make sense if the built-in switch on the DC is DP? Then when the DC is turned off with that switch the induced current would not feed back into the mains, but with that switch always closed, the nature of the remote switch becomes the issue. Does that make sense?

I spoke to Jet Tech support and the tech did not know whether the switch on the DC is SP or DP. He said that my problem "happens sometimes." (It was on the phone so I could not see the mechanics shrug that went with it.) Big Help.

To keep this in perspective, this is a nuisance issue. It has become more interesting as time goes on, but I can live with it. The entry panel is across the room. I just don't feel comfortable having to reset it so frequently. The switch on the DC is very hard to reach and also is often across the room from where I am working. A remote switch is a great convenience but not that huge a deal in the great scheme of things.

This is interesting. I appreciate the input.

Doug

[Arthur Fleming]

I will plead complete ignorance about capacitors, think I have replaced maybe three in the past 35 years. My thought was where Doug had said this seems to occur at the same time as a click sound comes from the DC motor, the centrifugal switch is switching back to the starting windings as opposed to the running coils, creating a stronger induced current into the circuit, the armature is still turning, so it will induce a voltage/current. Whether this can trip a gfi, I don't know, only guessing. The neutral line being tied into the ground at the main panel, may be giving the induced voltage/current a place to go. I am still thinking that a small wattage, incandescent bulb plugged into the same circuit, and on, would absorb this, and stop the nuisance trips. WE HAVE A SCIENCE PROJECT! Artie

[Mike Henderson]

I will plead complete ignorance about capacitors, think I have replaced maybe three in the past 35 years. My thought was where Doug had said this seems to occur at the same time as a click sound comes from the DC motor, the centrifugal switch is switching back to the starting windings as opposed to the running coils, creating a stronger induced current into the circuit, the armature is still turning, so it will induce a voltage/current. Whether this can trip a gfi, I don't know, only guessing. The neutral line being tied into the ground at the main panel, may be giving the induced voltage/current a place to go. I am still thinking that a small wattage, incandescent bulb plugged into the same circuit, and on, would absorb this, and stop the nuisance trips. WE HAVE A SCIENCE PROJECT! Artie

Just a note, Artie. An induction motor only has power to the field coil. When you remove the power, the magnetic field of the field coil disappears, and when it disappears, the magnetic field of the rotor disappears (it's called an "Induction motor" because the field "induces" current in the rotor, which provides the magnetic field of the rotor). So the rotor cannot induce a voltage/current in the starting coil, or the field coil, once power is removed.

There are ways to electrically brake a motor but most of them require that you put a voltage into the field coil. For example, putting a DC current into the field will provide a brake effect on the rotor. But if you just turn off a single phase motor, the rotor will not generally induce any voltage/current in any of the field coils.

But even if you could induce a voltage/current in the starting circuit, you have the problem of no longer having a complete circuit (since you opened the hot wire). The current has to go somewhere and there's no such thing as single wire current.

Mike

[Malcolm McLeod]

Doug,
Just to be clear, are you sure this is GFCI breaker? Could it be AFCI? Or, combo AF/GFCI?

The intermittent trip just makes me think it might be an arc fault issue....

[Doug Hepler]

Malcolm,

I don't know. The question had not occurred to me. I just know the facts I described. The breaker has a yellow "test" button on it.

Doug

[Arthur Fleming]

So Mike, care to throw a guess in on what's causing the the gfi breaker to trip on the DC winding down, after it's been turned off? Cause I'm out of idea's if an induced current can't bleed back to the neutral/ground. GFI's generally trip on an imbalance between the hot and neutral. I would think a capacitor could also discharge back to the neutral. I'm still planning on making an isolation relay and see what happens. :) Artie

[Rick Christopherson]

To clarify Rick's comment just a bit,......
Mike, you need to bone up on your reactive component background. I'm not interested in arguing about it, which is why I didn't enter this thread when it started, but pretty much everything you wrote following my post is wrong. For simplicity, I'll hit the simplest one: Both capacitors and inductors are energy storage devices. You throw in a rotating core, and it becomes even more pronounced. ELI the ICE man.

[Arthur Fleming]

Malcolm, good point on arc fault breaker, most of the time I've had problems with them has been whenever the load was started, not broken. I do believe the code is for at least one gfi receptacle in the garage, may be all 125 volt receptacles. I don't know if they've made a combo arc fault/gfi breaker yet, I know they've already written the code change for when that technology becomes available. I will cheerfully admit to not being an engineer, or highly knowledgeable in electronics. I also know how difficult it can be to chase down an intermittent problem. Unless Doug wishes otherwise, I'm planning on making an isolation relay, and will send it to him gratis. If it solves the issue I will let him reimburse me for the shipping. I am now curious as to all %$@#, on what this is and have been an electrician long enough to have seen most of the simple problems that crop up, which makes this more interesting to me. Doug, sorry to hear about the lamps, I've needed to use that trick before to get an inverter generator to power a gas burner. If the DC can be wired for 220 volts also, it's much more likely the switching mechanism is two pole. This would be so that if the switch is off, there is not any voltage in the machine. This has been a very interesting puzzle so far. Artie

[David L Morse]

When trying to solve a puzzle involving mystery currents I like to start by trying to find a loop. Without a continuous loop you can't have a current (unless there's an antenna involved, but that's a different world).

So the mystery current is flowing in the neutral wire, not the line since that's been opened by the switch. Following the neutral back toward the panel we find that eventually it is bonded to the ground at the service entrance. The ground returns to the motor and is connected to the motor frame, and there the path seems to end.

Going the other direction we find the neutral connected to the run windings and either the start winding or the centrifugal switch. The other side of the windings is connected to line but that's a dead end because of the open switch.

To close the loop we need something to connect the windings to the frame. It turns out that, because of the way that the windings are packed into the slots in the stator iron, there's a fair amount of capacitance between the stator windings and the frame.

While that capacitance completes the loop, it's value is way too small to allow enough current to pass at 60Hz to trip the GFI. (if it did, you wouldn't be able to run the motor at all) To get to trip current the frequency must be a lot higher than 60Hz. High frequency currents can be caused either by contact bounce on the centrifugal switch or a resonance condition involving the stator to frame capacitance and winding inductance. Actually both could be involved with contact bounce kicking off multiple occurrances of ringing of the resonant circuit.

Of course to start oscillation there must be some energy stored somewhere before the cetrifugal switch closes. That can't be the windings since they're open circuited so there must be voltage on the capacitance. Where does that voltage come from?

When the motor's running there's magnetic flux flowing through the iron in proportion to the applied voltage (and 90° out of phase). When the power is shut off there can be some residual magnetism left in the iron. The amount depends upon when in the cycle it's shut off.

That residual flux is left in both the stator and rotor. The rotor then acts like a rotating permanent magnet generating AC voltage in the windings. That voltage charges and discharges the the stator to frame capacitance (as well as other strays).

When the centrifugal switch closes the stored energy depends upon both the amount of residual flux and the position of the rotor. The amplitude of the oscillation is then dependent upon two random variables and makes the tripping of the GFI a random event.

[Bill Orbine]

I was wondering after all this discussions and inputs to remedy the GFI trip issue....... couldn't the GFI breaker be removed and replaced with standard if it is safe and lawful to do? It just seems that there is really nothing wrong with DC, remote switch or the electrical circuit. Rather, it's seems that this problem is a minor technical issue.

Otherwise... it's very interesting to read what everyone has to say!

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, you need to bone up on your reactive component background. I'm not interested in arguing about it, which is why I didn't enter this thread when it started, but pretty much everything you wrote following my post is wrong. For simplicity, I'll hit the simplest one: Both capacitors and inductors are energy storage devices. You throw in a rotating core, and it becomes even more pronounced. ELI the ICE man.
I'll let those reading decide if my comments make sense. And I am fairly familiar with reactive components.

Mike

[David Morse's analysis, above, is very good. He always does a much better job of explaining things than I do:)]

[I'll add another way for the starting capacitor to have a charge. When the centrifugal switch is closed and the motor is starting, AC voltage is applied to the capacitor. So the capacitor is charged in one direction, then discharges, then charges in the other direction. If the centrifugal switch opens when the capacitor has a significant charge on it, the capacitor will hold that charge for some time (it will slowly leak off). If the dust collector is turned on and off as the tool is used, some percentage of the time the capacitor will have a charge on it when the motor is turned off. As the motor spins down, and the centrifugal switch closes again, energy from the capacitor is available to implement the process described by David Morse.]

[Arthur Fleming]

Bill, I'm not licensed in Colorado, but I believe GFI protection is required on at least one receptacle in a garage, it may be required on all receptacles (so as to give gfi protection to any extension cords being used outside, but plugged into a garage receptacle). Considering how expensive a gfi breaker is, compared to a standard one, I'm thinking it was required by the code or would not have been installed. Artie

[Arthur Fleming]

347155Hi Doug, here is the finished product. I'm thinking getting it to you may be the hard part. I gotta think this will look like a bomb if they x-ray packages at the USPS. Gonna try to get it in the mail tomorrow morning on the way to work. Artie

[Doug Hepler]

Artie,

Excellent. I'm looking forward to it. I'll be in touch

Doug

[Arthur Fleming]

Doug the relay is used, think I've had it in my van for over two years. Only issue that I see is the relay is rated for 20 amps resistive at 125 volts, and 1 horsepower at 125 volts. Your DC is 1.5 horse. On the other hand I would have a hard time believing your remote switched receptacle has a higher rating than this. :). Artie

[Arthur Fleming]

Doug got it in the mail today, priority. They said it should take two to three business days. Friday's a holiday, so Tuesday? Artie

[Doug Hepler]

Artie,

Great. My first custom-made tool that I didn't make myself. I can't remember the amperage rating on the motor, but I think its 13 or 15. The circuit is 20 amp. I would not expect a problem, especially because I would know soon enough if it overheated.

Looking forward to it

Doug

[Arthur Fleming]

Doug, you are now in charge of this science project LOL. Since this has started happening, what would you say is the longest you have gone while using the machines, this didn't happen? Just curious the time frame on thinking we accomplished something? Artie

[Doug Hepler]

Artie,
It has been so variable, it's hard to say. Maybe we can declare victory if it does not trip the breaker after 20 cycles. Although I'm in the shop almost every day, this week has been different. It seems like other concerns have kept me busy every day,

I'll get back to you with news

Doug

[Doug Hepler]

Artie's contactor has arrived. It consists of a junction box and the contactor box. It plugs between my remote switch and the dust collector I put it through 15 on/off cycles and the breaker did not trip once. I would say that our science project has proved his theory (applause!).

Thanks again to Artie (applause!) and to all who were interested in this problem. Jet and Penn State Industries, if you are listening, take heed. Consider selling a double pole remote switch.

Doug