Bailey 4 1/2 Advice Requested

[John Towns]

Some months ago I picked up a Stanley Bailey 4 1/2 (Pat D Mar-25-02 Aug-19-02)
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at a flea market. I did not pay much, which is a good thing because today I started to clean it up and noticed a few things. This plane seems to have lived a hard life:

1. On one side, it appears that it is made from 2 pieces that have been bonded.
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Sorry, the pic is upside down but I think you can see what I am talking about. It is solid and from the inside you cannot see any evidence. Is this unusual? I have never seen that. While I have never used this plane, it seems that it does not affect the plane negatively, at least visually. The bottom is flat.
2. Perhaps you can see in the photo, the tote is broken laterally, all the way through. Only the screw is holding it together. My problem is this...It appears that when it broke, the tote screw bent such that I cannot remove the tote. I am thinking I should cut through the screw and remove the tote and screw that way, and then replace them.
3. The depth adjustment wheel seems to have taken a hit...it is out of round.
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It still works, but I think someone in this plane's life took a wrench or a pair of pliers to turn it.

Is it worth it to replace it, given the other things I have seen with this plane. Other than these, I think it might turn out to be a reasonable working plane (at least that is what I am hoping). Other than some dirt and surface rust, it looks like it will clean up nicely.

I would appreciate any and all comments, including why in the world would someone buy this plane in the first place.

John

[Jim Koepke]

I haven't seen a two tone side like that, but then again, I haven't even seen half of everything.

The tote should be reparable. The bolt may be another story. Some from that era have a bit of a hole in the middle of the slot at the top nut on the bolt to allow some penetrating oil into the threads. Taking the top nut off should allow the wood to come off so the bolt can be straightened. If there isn't a hole in the nut, maybe some can be drizzled down the bolt at the crack in the tote.

As for the adjuster, I have a spare or two around to which you are welcome. PM me with an address and I will send you a replacement. It may be a few days before I get into town.

jtk

[Bill Houghton]

Have you put a straightedge to it to check that it's straight? That is, could it be an optical illusion caused by a sharp change in direction of the side there?

[Patrick Chase]

Have you put a straightedge to it to check that it's straight? That is, could it be an optical illusion caused by a sharp change in direction of the side there?

Possible but unlikely.

If you look closely at the shadows in his photo you can that the light sources (there are at least two, with the brightest coming from the bottom-left) aren't very specular, as evidenced by the shadow cast by the tote. Taking both direction and specularity in account, it seems unlikely that a vertical "corner" as you suggest would have caused such a dramatic change in reflectivity.

I'm not an expert w.r.t. metalworking, but I don't think that a good weld would produce that sort of sudden step. Perhaps somebody cut the front-left sidewall out and brazed or soldered in a replacement? If so then you might not want to put too much time into this plane. Is the interior still Japanned or painted? If so that might explain the lack of evidence.

[Derek Cohen]

Clean it up, either glue or replace the handle, replace the brass adjuster - the plane looks to be a Type 10 (the low knob and lever cap key hole suggests Type 11 or earlier, but the date is not that of a Type 11 - Type 12 had a high knob). Then use it. There is no other way to know if it is worth it.

If the side was brazed, this may have been a straight crack. No big deal then. However, aligning two parts is another matter. If the sole is straight, and all is working, then it would have been an expert job. Is the other side similar?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Line]

I had a plane, don't remember make, that had a bent tote screw that wouldn't unscrew because of the bend. I was able to bend the screw enough to be able to remove it. I used the tote as the handle and gently pulled back on it to get the screw straight enough so that it would turn. Give it a try.

[Thomas Schneider]

Can you feel a seem on the "broken" side? What does the other side look like? Can you see any change in the japanning on the inside?

[Stew Denton]

Hi John,

My advise would be the same a Jim. I have never seen that sort of two tone body either. That said, the junction line seems almost arrow straight, and there appear to be no signs of welding or brazing. Odd as it may seem, it looks like it came from the factory that way. A crack would wander, and not be straight. If it was repaired by machining and welding two pieces of two plane together, the repair should also show up on the other side or the base, and there should be signs of welding or brazing, and there appear to be no such signs. If there are no similar changes in color on the bottom or other side, then my guess is that it came that way, and is probably OK. If it hasn't broken yet, it probably is not going to. (It has had it's chance to break now for better than 100 years.)

Jim's advice has one notch up on what I would have said, however, as I would not have thought about the older style of brass nut that holds the tote onto the rod, as they do often have the drilling going clear up to the bottom of the screw slot, so as to make for an excellent spot to add either WD40, Aerokroil, or Leech. The guys at work who do machining and rebuild stuff like Aerokroil better than the other types of penetrating oil.

Give the penetrating oil plenty of time to work. Give it a day, then add a couple more drops, etc., and wait another day. Then try a screw driver to remove the nut. There is no hurry, and 2 to 4 days is not to long to wait. After a few days, and it still does not come loose, try using a large punch and hammer, and LIGTHLY tap on the nut, sometimes that approach can free up a stubborn nut.

Richard had success by bending the bolt slightly, but I would be leery of such, and only use it as a last resort. The cast iron base is brittle, and you can break it trying that approach. I would save that for a last resort. I would even try the hacksaw approach, following the crack in the tote first, and if carefully done, you might have enough good wood on either side of the saw line to glue things back together, and then fill the voids later.

In my view, you did well, if you paid very little for the plane. The #4 1/2 plane is not very common. Parts a readily available on the auction site, and not terribly expensive. The plane looks good to me, and very repairable. If you can fix the tote, and use the adjuster from Jim, you should be back in business for less than $10.

Stew

[Patrick Bernardo]

Nobody else has mentioned an obvious possibility, so I will. Just based on the photo, and it's hard to see, is it possible that this was simply stored with something sitting on top of it so that it gathered patina at different rates? It really doesn't look like a repair from here.

[Glen Canaday]

Clean it up, either glue or replace the handle, replace the brass adjuster - the plane looks to be a Type 10 (the low knob and lever cap key hole suggests Type 11 or earlier, but the date is not that of a Type 11 - Type 12 had a high knob). Then use it. There is no other way to know if it is worth it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Two patent dates and no frog adjuster screw is a type 9. For some reason or another, I can't explain, they're my favorite type. Probably because I find the adjuster screw to be candy and not much else, and because the low knob feels good to me.

Everything everyone suggested I second. I especially second the suggestion to fix it up and use it.

[John Towns]

Have you put a straightedge to it to check that it's straight? That is, could it be an optical illusion caused by a sharp change in direction of the side there?

Bill,the side is straight. When I run my finger across the seam,I do not feel anything.

[John Towns]

Possible but unlikely.

If you look closely at the shadows in his photo you can that the light sources (there are at least two, with the brightest coming from the bottom-left) aren't very specular, as evidenced by the shadow cast by the tote. Taking both direction and specularity in account, it seems unlikely that a vertical "corner" as you suggest would have caused such a dramatic change in reflectivity.

I'm not an expert w.r.t. metalworking, but I don't think that a good weld would produce that sort of sudden step. Perhaps somebody cut the front-left sidewall out and brazed or soldered in a replacement? If so then you might not want to put too much time into this plane. Is the interior still Japanned or painted? If so that might explain the lack of evidence.
Patrick,

Evidence did not show up until I ran the side on some sandpaper to remove the rust. The different shades show part that was sanded and the part that was not fully sanded. And yet, when I run my finger across the seam, I do not feel anything. Looking from the inside, I see no evidence of anything unusual. Based on yours and other comments, I am less concerned about it.

Thanks!!!

[John Towns]

Clean it up, either glue or replace the handle, replace the brass adjuster - the plane looks to be a Type 10 (the low knob and lever cap key hole suggests Type 11 or earlier, but the date is not that of a Type 11 - Type 12 had a high knob). Then use it. There is no other way to know if it is worth it.

If the side was brazed, this may have been a straight crack. No big deal then. However, aligning two parts is another matter. If the sole is straight, and all is working, then it would have been an expert job. Is the other side similar?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

The other side is solid the whole length.

John

[John Towns]

I had a plane, don't remember make, that had a bent tote screw that wouldn't unscrew because of the bend. I was able to bend the screw enough to be able to remove it. I used the tote as the handle and gently pulled back on it to get the screw straight enough so that it would turn. Give it a try.

Richard,

What you described sounds alot like my plane. I will give that a try.

John

[John Towns]

Hi John,

My advise would be the same a Jim. I have never seen that sort of two tone body either. That said, the junction line seems almost arrow straight, and there appear to be no signs of welding or brazing. Odd as it may seem, it looks like it came from the factory that way. A crack would wander, and not be straight. If it was repaired by machining and welding two pieces of two plane together, the repair should also show up on the other side or the base, and there should be signs of welding or brazing, and there appear to be no such signs. If there are no similar changes in color on the bottom or other side, then my guess is that it came that way, and is probably OK. If it hasn't broken yet, it probably is not going to. (It has had it's chance to break now for better than 100 years.)

Jim's advice has one notch up on what I would have said, however, as I would not have thought about the older style of brass nut that holds the tote onto the rod, as they do often have the drilling going clear up to the bottom of the screw slot, so as to make for an excellent spot to add either WD40, Aerokroil, or Leech. The guys at work who do machining and rebuild stuff like Aerokroil better than the other types of penetrating oil.

Give the penetrating oil plenty of time to work. Give it a day, then add a couple more drops, etc., and wait another day. Then try a screw driver to remove the nut. There is no hurry, and 2 to 4 days is not to long to wait. After a few days, and it still does not come loose, try using a large punch and hammer, and LIGTHLY tap on the nut, sometimes that approach can free up a stubborn nut.

Richard had success by bending the bolt slightly, but I would be leery of such, and only use it as a last resort. The cast iron base is brittle, and you can break it trying that approach. I would save that for a last resort. I would even try the hacksaw approach, following the crack in the tote first, and if carefully done, you might have enough good wood on either side of the saw line to glue things back together, and then fill the voids later.

In my view, you did well, if you paid very little for the plane. The #4 1/2 plane is not very common. Parts a readily available on the auction site, and not terribly expensive. The plane looks good to me, and very repairable. If you can fix the tote, and use the adjuster from Jim, you should be back in business for less than $10.

Stew

Thanks,Stew.

I had not considered the risk of a brittle cast iron base.

John

[John Towns]

Nobody else has mentioned an obvious possibility, so I will. Just based on the photo, and it's hard to see, is it possible that this was simply stored with something sitting on top of it so that it gathered patina at different rates? It really doesn't look like a repair from here.

Patrick,

Thanks for your response.

The 'line' continues across the top of the side. There does not appear to be any 'repair' evidence from the inside. the different 'shades' appeared when sanding the side, the orange shade is rust that was not totally removed by flat sanding. And yet, when I run my finger across, I feel nothing.

I am not going to stress over this, and concentrate on repairing the tote.

John

John

[Bill McNiel]

Nobody else has mentioned an obvious possibility, so I will. Just based on the photo, and it's hard to see, is it possible that this was simply stored with something sitting on top of it so that it gathered patina at different rates? It really doesn't look like a repair from here.

Given the OP's responses to all the questions, I think this is probably the answer. Just MHO.

[Stew Denton]

Hi John,

The brittle cast also made me hesitate to suggest the punch and hammer approach. If you try it be darned careful. I would put it in the same category as bending the bolt...it is risky. I think my approach would be the penetrating oil and time. IF that didn't eventually work I would try a thin hack saw blade in the crack in the handle to saw through the tote rod. Once you saw through it, the top of the tote should slide off, and you can work on the bottom piece. Once the bottom piece of the tote is free, you can use more penetrating oil on the stub for the tote rod that is left in the body of the plane. As above, a replacement tote rod can be had for about $10.

To me it looks like some elbow grease, some time and effort, but you should end up with a very good and useful plane, and for a pretty decent price.

Stew

[John Towns]

I decided that it was prudent to cut the tote screw to remove the tote. The tote was already broken clear through and the screw was bent. I think you can see a bend just above the cut.
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Also when I cleaned it up a bit you maybe can see the inside of where the line is.
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Next I will be making a new tote and looking online for a new tote screw.

Thanks again for all your help and advice. Here are a couple of other shots:
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I really like the extra weight of this plane and am very much looking forward to finishing it and using it.

One additional question, if I may. Do any of you repaint the interior of the plane? Or do you leave it as is?

John

[Jim Koepke]

Hi John,

That screw looks like a replacement. At the time you plane was made the tote screw was a shaft with a brass nut on top. Hopefully someone didn't mess up the threads with the replacement screw. If it has the same threads, 12-20, as the frog screws or the front knob shaft it should be fine.


One additional question, if I may. Do any of you repaint the interior of the plane? Or do you leave it as is?

Yes, I prefer to have a fresh paint job on my planes when time allows. I have used mostly spray enamel. Home Depot used to have a black enamel spray paint for $1 a can. I haven't checked recently.

Other folks have painted them in their favorite colors. Most folks worry more about the usability value more than the collector value of these old planes.

jtk

[John Towns]

Hi John,

That screw looks like a replacement. At the time you plane was made the tote screw was a shaft with a brass nut on top. Hopefully someone didn't mess up the threads with the replacement screw. If it has the same threads, 12-20, as the frog screws or the front knob shaft it should be fine.


jtk

Jim,
I will check the frog screw when I get home.

I'm curious...you said "when your plane was made"... approximately what year was that?

Thanks again for all your help.

John

[Bill Houghton]

Jim,
I will check the frog screw when I get home.

I'm curious...you said "when your plane was made"... approximately what year was that?

Thanks again for all your help.

John

You can get an idea of the range of years within which some makes of bench planes were made by looking at the "type studies." For Stanley, a good one is here (look for the "type study" link at top right): http://rexmill.com/. For Millers Falls planes: http://oldtoolheaven.com/bench/benchtypes.htm. I'm not familiar with this page for Sargent planes, but it could be a start: https://img.sauf.ca/pictures/2015-08-07/bf11462fb1caa9cf66f443e558e59f59.pdf

[John Towns]

You can get an idea of the range of years within which some makes of bench planes were made by looking at the "type studies." For Stanley, a good one is here (look for the "type study" link at top right): http://rexmill.com/. For Millers Falls planes: http://oldtoolheaven.com/bench/benchtypes.htm. I'm not familiar with this page for Sargent planes, but it could be a start: https://img.sauf.ca/pictures/2015-08-07/bf11462fb1caa9cf66f443e558e59f59.pdf


Bill,

Thanks! Excellent information on types on the RexMill site. Just what I wanted to know.

John

[Tom Vanzant]

Looks to be a type 10, 1907-1909. As Jim K said, the tote screw is a replacement, maybe from a type 17. Hopefully, it is a 12-20 thread. Check the bay for a type 17 tote screw, but a long shot.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm curious...you said "when your plane was made"... approximately what year was that?

The easy answer is between 1902 and 1907. That would be a type 9 by the type studies. There are actually different versions of type 9. Yours looks to be one of the earlier versions. The earliest used a lateral adjuster left over from previous years with a patent date of 7-24-88 stamped on them. In the later years of the type the casting was changed a bit to be more like the types 10 & 11.

jtk

[Glen Canaday]

Yes, type 9. No frog adjustment screw. Those were introduced in 1907.

Does no one read my posts?

[Tom Vanzant]

The threaded hole below the brass adjusting knob says it's a type 10 adjustable frog. None of the photos show whether there is a threaded hole in the base for the adjusting screw. John T, is there such a hole?

[Stew Denton]

Hi John,

If the existing tote has a clean break, and the two pieces fit together nicely, then you can probably glue it up and have a good repair. I have done that, followed by sanding. If there are no voids to fill, I follow the sanding by spray lacquer. I have had very good luck with that approach at times, and the repair was virtually undetectable.

I would go with a tote rod that is for the original, rather than a type 17, and you will need a tote rod nut as well. Often on the auction site, you can find the nut and rod sold as a unit for one money. Check the upper handle of the tote to see whether it takes the tote bolt screw or the type 17 tote rod. The type 9 brass nut receiver in the tote has a square bottom.

The original tote is Brazilian rose wood, and as such is very desirable to have on a plane.

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

The threaded hole below the brass adjusting knob says it's a type 10 adjustable frog. None of the photos show whether there is a threaded hole in the base for the adjusting screw. John T, is there such a hole?

Sorry to disagree Tom. I think the threaded hole you mention is actually the hole for the lever cap screw. They go all the way though the casting. The exit point of the hole in the casting is in the wrong plane to work as a frog adjusting screw.

This site has the different frogs with dates and types:

http://www.antique-used-tools.com/Bailey4_5FrogCompare.jpg

jtk

[Tom Vanzant]

Jim, I stand corrected! I broke down a #6 T9 and there's the lever cap screw hole.