The challenge of deciding where to draw the line

[Rick Cicciarelli]

I'm in the process of trying to buy a new house that comes with an old barn and I'm finally starting to see the possibility of having my 'shop' come to reality in the old barn. There would be lots to do in getting the space fixed up for a shop (wiring, flooring, finished walls etc) and I'm starting to come to the conclusion that unless I want to wait another 10 years to have a budget to finish the shop and buy tools, I may have to compromise on some of the tools. There definitely seems to be a line draw between power requirements/budget when you have to decide between
14" vs 17/19" bandsaw
6" vs 8" jointer
benchtop planer vs 15" floor model
router table vs 3 hp shaper

Is it really worth waiting forever to get the bigger tools or should I just go with the smaller stuff for now, and sell/upgrade down the road as the budget allows?

[Cary Falk]

I would say look at CL for your starter stuff that way when you upgrade you don't loose much $$$. Upgrade when you have the money and start with the most annoying tool.

[richard b miller]

imho, it depends what you want to build. could you get by with a 14 BS vs a 17/19 (mines a 14") ? my dewalt 12.5" planer works just fine - do you need the extra 2.5"?
at present, i don't even own a jointer. i use my planer and TS for all, but do you really need the extra 2" on a jointer?

are they worth the extra $$ or can you get by with a little bit smaller and basically have a nice shop too?

[Al Launier]

As stated above, much depends on what you intend to build as that usually determines what you need for equipment. Most woodworking shops that I'm aware of start small within their budget & then grow in terms of tools, equipment & facility as their income grows. You don't have to start off with everything in place. I think the last sentence in your post speaks wisely.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

Grizzly makes all of these responses problematic. I have watched CL forever and anytime something worthwhile pops up around here, it's priced at or above what I could buy new from Grizzly.
In addition, Grizzly makes drawing the line challenging. Things like $650 for a 6" jointer vs $875 for an 8". I've got a pile of rough cut 8/4 cherry that is 7-11" wide. I'm considering resaw capacity on band saw and width on jointer.

[John K Jordan]

Rick, I had the same dilemma - I was saving money to build a shop here at the farm but I knew the shop would take every dollar and I wouldn't have any left for good tools! I think it's worth waiting for the good tools.

What I did was buy the big tools when I found them at good prices and put them still crated in a storage building. This method took longer to save enough to build the shop and had a few risks but worked out for me. I literally waited the dreaded 10 years you mentioned but now I have my dream shop full of everything I "need" and more. In my case I spent the 10 years fixing up the old barn and other farm buildings, remodeling the house, landscaping, fencing, cutting roads, dirt work for the new shop, etc. so I probably wouldn't have had time to actually play in the shop anyway!

If I had an extra building like you I would consider sinking everything into turning it into a shop now and compromise on the tools, buying smaller and used tools such as a bandsaw and do without some until I could afford good tools later. However, I justified a good new SCMS and a few other things as part of the cost of the construction - I saved a huge amount by building the whole thing myself (except for pouring and surfacing the concrete.) You can buy a cheap portable table saw to get by, do without a jointer, use some hand tools for a while.

Another option: I know several people who hauled in a portable building big enough for a small shop with a few tools (I personally recommend a lathe, bandsaw, grinder, and workbench!). This might give you enough immediate shop space to let you concentrate on getting the new shop space ready on a more relaxed schedule AND save up for the tools.

JKJ

[Mike Wilkins]

I vote for getting the shop set up first. Outfit the place with good flooring-concrete with a sleeper system on top; insulate the walls before you move in and start hanging cabinets on the walls (like I did); good lighting and plenty of 110 and 240 outlets around the perimeter. If the room is there, try to get a finishing room and lumber storage separated from the main shop.

As for tools; all of us started with smaller/affordable tools until our skills and needs exceeded our current tools. And then upgradeitis took over and we started drooling over tool catalogs and web offerings.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Van Huskey]

Buy used now! Get the basics you need to get going and you can re-sell them when it comes time to upgrade. Buying new machines then upgrading later can be expensive.

[glenn bradley]

Grizzly makes all of these responses problematic. I have watched CL forever and anytime something worthwhile pops up around here, it's priced at or above what I could buy new from Grizzly.
In addition, Grizzly makes drawing the line challenging. Things like $650 for a 6" jointer vs $875 for an 8". I've got a pile of rough cut 8/4 cherry that is 7-11" wide. I'm considering resaw capacity on band saw and width on jointer.

Don't size your machines by the lumber at hand, size them based on what you will build. For example, I wasted money on a 6" jointer that was too narrow to do the job most of the time. I now have an 8" jointer that is wide enough most of the time. A wider jointer would be cool but, I would only get the advantage of it a few times a year and I would have to sacrifice the floor space all year long. I made a planer sled back when I had a 6" and all is well.

Your ability to buy used will vary with your area. In my area, large machines bring a premium but, small machines are plentiful. When I re-started woodworking I paid $180 for a 10" Craftsman contractor saw and a 12" craftsman bandsaw. This let me put more cash towards dust collection which is important no matter how small your tools. I think it is good advice to start small and used and upgrade / replace things when the tool stops you from doing things, not your craft.

Later I got about what I paid for the used tools and moved up. I was able to move up in a decidedly educated direction because I had started to establish the kinds of things I would be making. A 10" tablesaw is fine for me although it is now a 3HP machine. A 17" bandsaw is adequate for my work and would never change if it had another horsepower or two (it may never change anyway).

I use a lot of figured material so the higher original outlay for carbide insert heads made sense. They have already paid for the cutterhead upgrade cost and are paying dividends every time I use them now. this brings to mind your power installation. Provide yourself with 220v power capabilities, you'll go there eventually.

[David Spurr]

Fix up the barn now and sell and upgrade later.

[Robin Frierson]

I started with only hand tools...built a nice rowboat with no stationary machines. First machine was a drill press so I could build a nice workbench and drill the dog holes. Then a craftsman table saw...later Dewalt lunchbox....then finally the 8in jointer and I was ready to go. You can go without a bandsaw.....I did for years just using a jigsaw for curves. . And save money by buying used.

[Nick Stokes]

Don't wire up a shop without the 220 capability. Where I am now is limited to 110v. I got lucky to find an old DJ20 that I can run at 110, but i'm limited to 14" bandsaw, 1.75hp sawstop, and dewalt 735 planer.

Regardless, buy used tools to start the shop. Then when you upgrade you sell them for close to what you paid, there is no loss...

[Prashun Patel]

I advise not waiting to make things, and to buy the best tools you can afford.

Don't be afraid of reselling. I've switched out at least half of my tools and they do sell. Some of those initial purchases greatly informed my upgrades.

I also would also make the decision per-tool.

Personally, I got by nicely for years with a 6" jointer and benchtop planer. I only upgraded because I wanted to, not because I was limited in what I could make.

Two things I'd do now tho: wire for 220 and plan your dust collection ducting.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Definitely definitely DEFINITELY buy used tools to start. You don't have to buy minimax and festool machines on day 1.

I find that the depreciation for average to higher quality tools is a one time event, assuming they are well cared for. For your standard Asian made machine (jet, grizzly, etc), there's a one time depreciation hit of roughly 50%.

So if you buy used and take care of the tools, you will probably be able to sell them for what you paid.

This gives you the ability to learn how the machines work and what you like to make with very little financial risk.

I bought a used Jet lathe, for example. I thought for sure I would love wood turning. But after 5 years of the machine collecting dust, I decided to sell it and use the cash to upgrade my jointer, which I use on every single project. And I sold it for what I paid.

I get the tendency for people to recommend buying"the best tool you can afford," but I my take is a little more specific... "Buy the best tool you can afford IF you're sure it's a tool you need and will use often". Give yourself room to learn which tools you rely in the most. It's best to allow the learning process to occur without taking big financial risks.

Good luck!

[James Gunning]

The one tool buying decision I regret is buying a 6" jointer vs. 8" or larger. I bought a jointer and planer to work with rough stock. Not much rough stock is more than 12" wide, but a fair amount can be wider than 6". If I had to do it today, I would buy a 12" combo jointer/planer, partly because I have limited space. There are some workarounds to the narrow jointer, but they are all less than ideal. Most other tools aren't that critical in size. I did buy an 18" bandsaw, but honestly could have gotten by with a 14" with no issues.

[John TenEyck]

I vote to buy used, too, IF you know what you are looking at and are comfortable fixing whatever needs to be. If not, buy new, and Grizzly is hard to beat in that catagory. In either case, I think it's better to start building things sooner rather than later. You don't get younger, and the years slip away way too quickly. Start out with whatever you can find within your budget and start making stuff. Sell/upgrade as you go and your skills improve. I started out with a new Sears TS, a router, jig saw, circular saw, and some hand tools, and built a fair number of cabinets and furniture, most of which are still in my house. I bought a used Unisaw 25 years in - but I still have the Sears saw, too. As for jointer and planer, bigger is better. How anyone gets along with a 6" one is a mystery to me. I started out with a 10" Inca and upgraded to a 14" MM last year and it's still not too large. I bought the Inca used, and sold it for about 80% of what I paid for it - after 25 years. In any case, I would not settle for anything less than an 8" jointer.

Your shop doesn't have to be perfect to get started. As long as it's dry, has power, and you can see what you're doing the rest can wait until you have more money to add whatever is needed.

My viewpoint is slanted towards making stuff, not having a dream shop with the best and shiniest machines. Others are the complete opposite. You have to decide where you are on that spectrum and proceed accordingly.

John

[Neil Gaskin]

Personal opinions follow. Your situation may be different and it all depends on what you build.

Band saw saw depends on curve cutting or resawing. We have 2 and they are used for different tasks. The 14" is used for small curves and scroll work. Mine 20 in is used for resawing, ripping, and large material curves.

Jointer id go with an 8 in min. I wish id have bought a 12, then I'd want a 16 though... This really depends on the size stock you plan to use. 6" is too limiting in my opinion but 8" probably gets most of it while 12" would be sweet.

I think you can get by for a while with a 13" dewalt planer. I'd upgrade to a helical cutting head. By time you do that a though your not far off from a grizzly 15". I love our powermatic 15hh for what that's worth.

Look at euro combo machines. I have no personal experience to speak from but they do save space and represent value.

Router tables and shapers are different animals. So this depends if your making doors and raised panels or just a lot of profiling. You can get a 1/2" router collet for most 3 hp shapers. If you're current tooling is router bits I'd start with a router table. Do get a lift for the router table if you go that route. For what it's worth a well equipped router table can run as much as a good used shaper.

For or all of the above look at used. Craigslist, woodweb.com. Local dealers etc.

Buy what you need when you need it. My advice is to figure out what tools you need to do the work you want to do, do not by smaller now just because that's what the budget allows and don't by bigger than you need just because it's bigger. To be fair though you don't hear many people say "man I wish my tool was smaller" Take that as you wish :)

[Van Huskey]

ONe misconception some new woodworkers make is that new machines will be ready to run out of the box and thus easier. This if more the exception than the rule. You are going to have to do a full tune-up on most any new machine and if something is wrong with it most of the lower cost companies will send you parts vs replacing the tool or having a technician come out and fix it. Very often you find fully tuned ready to run machines in the used market so don't get caught in buying new simply for a plug and play experience.

[Andy Giddings]

As Neil states, a combo machine would give you a lot of what you need apart from the bandsaw. If you can tolerate the setup times when switching between functions (which is minimal IMHO) then used ones come up reasonably frequently. Most of the ones I've seen for sale are used by hobbyists and are in vgc. Might want to get in touch with Eric if you're interested in one as I believe he hears about the Minimax combos fairly early when users want to upgrade.

[Mark Wooden]

Don't size your machines by the lumber at hand, size them based on what you will build.

Wise words there.
As one who will rough out most of my parts from RS4S stock before I start to flatten/joint/plane/size, I can tell you first hand- a good running 6" jointer and 12" planer will do more and better work than a beat up or cheap 8" or 12" jointer and 15" to 20" planer. And why is everyone so freaking fired up about resawing? I can buy better looking, highly figured, wider veneers at far less than it would cost me to stand there and resaw them-and I have a 20" 5 hp bandsaw with 14" under the guide. Seriously, if you've got nothing but time and a love for feeding stock through a saw, go for the big band saw, but for the most part a 14" to 17" saw will do you beautifully.
Same goes for helical insert heads- nice for some stuff, and decidedly easier to set the knives, but rather than spend $2600 for a planer head and $1200 for a jointer head, I bought a used 7-1/2 hp shaper, new quill bearings for it and a set of knives for the 12" jointer and 18" planer. And I don't really have much trouble with figured stock, and setting knives is a nice quiet 45 mins at the beginning of the day with a cup of coffee.
Used equipment can be a real bargain- at this point 80% of my machinery was purchased used and rebuilt as needed- but be aware that it can be a crapshoot too. If you're willing to put a little time and effort into them, older machines can be the last you'll ever buy or need. But anything used and made in china may be too clapped out to be worth it
And there are some nice new models out there too, but it's really a case of you get what you pay for.
I'd start with a good tablesaw, and a decent jointer and a small planer. Get a good RO sander and a bench plane. Then start working on your building, starting in a corner with the few tools you have. Before you know it, you'll look over your shoulder as your hanging a light and notice you've got a nice shop full of tools there.
The fun's in the journey.;)

[richard b miller]

... and start hanging cabinets on the walls (like I did)...
something to consider about cabinets: check with local cabinet shops for tear outs and look on CL for used cabinets.
i furnished my whole garage/work shop with used cabinets, for $60

[Matthew Hills]

I'd ensure the basics in your shop -- light, insulation, power... so that you'll enjoy being there.
Choose tools based on what is left over and prioritization on immediate projects.
I.e., maybe make a simple router table for now with your router fixed mount screwed into plywood and a clamp-on fence.

I'd definitely recommend against buying a 6" jointer new -- in our area, they stay on craigslist for a while listed ~$200. (8" is a better long-term tool, but harder to find a great deal; you may prefer a wide J/P combo as suggested earlier). I hadn't originally planned to get a jointer, until I realized that it was really tough to get square assemblies if there was even a little warp in the wood.

I started with a rigid `13" planer and a used 14" bandsaw. now have a used Parks 12" planer and a 16" minimax bandsaw. all of these could get work done, and were entirely elective upgrades.

My tablesaw is my most-used tool, but I do use the milling equipment first on all solid wood. I could conceivably do without the jointer if I wanted to face-joint by hand (I do this when using wide boards right now)

Matt

[John K Jordan]

...figure out what tools you need to do the work you want to do,..

I haven't see where Rick mentioned goals, what he wants to do in the shop (but I may have missed it).

Setting up a shop as a business? A place to play on weekends? Make toys? Birdhouses? Cabinets? High end furniture? Don't have a clue yet? Things to consider before going shopping with anyone's tool list.

[John Lankers]

A screwed up shop build / reno can haunt you forever, a screwed up tool purchase only until you have found a replacement / upgrade. Watch the used market and don't be afraid to plan for future upgrades.
My 2 cts.

[glenn bradley]

... and start hanging cabinets on the walls (like I did)...
something to consider about cabinets: check with local cabinet shops for tear outs and look on CL for used cabinets.
i furnished my whole garage/work shop with used cabinets, for $60

And miss the opportunity to practice your chops, joinery techniques and drawer / door making skills? Never ;-)

[Robert Engel]

I think its a big mistake to buy subgrade tools only to end up replacing them later. Don't limit yourself because of electrical req's. Wiring for 240 is the same cost as 120 except for double pole breaker. You can run all your machines on one circuit (with exceptions like 5HP machines or DC).

I you don't have a decent floor you will need one regardless of what machines you acquire, so that's a given.

From experience I can tell you a shop build can be a complete time-engulfing monster that can start to burn you out. After a major expansion remodel almost 3 years ago, there are still aspects of my shop I have not gotten around to doing. I fully expect 10 years down the road I will still have shop projects I've never finished.

So my advice is get the basic infrastructure stuff done (wiring, lights, flooring), and don't make the shop 100% of your projects. Get a ww'ing project going that you can bounce back to now and then.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

I'm looking at instrument building and perhaps some Windsor chairs. Not much needed in the way of power tools for Windsor chairs except a lathe, which I already have. Bandsaw will be more beneficial than a table saw though for instrument building. A planet and jointer would be beneficial for gluing up laminated blocks that are flat. A shaper would make quick work out of the back of a banjo neck, though one can certainly get by with hand tools for shaping a neck. I just like the idea of rounding over the back of the neck with a shaper.

[Will Boulware]

Instruments and chairs? Nice! Grab a used American made bandsaw and jointer and one of those newfangled yellow lunchbox planers. Possibly a drill press. All of that should run you less than a grand. Invest in good lighting for the barn, build a workbench of your preferred flavor, and spend the rest of your money on hand tools and nice wood. Most of my friends who build instruments don't own a shaper (or many nice tools at all - instrument makers can be stubborn buggers when it comes to upgrading their machinery!) It doesn't take a full blown cabinet shop to build most stuff, and I definitely wouldn't wait for everything to be perfectly in place before getting started or you'll never build anything! Grab some hand tools and get to work!

[John K Jordan]

I'm looking at instrument building and perhaps some Windsor chairs....

Fantastic! I agree with the bandsaw, my most-used tool after the lathes. The drum sander (Performax) gets good use in my shop on thin stock. If you do rebuild the shop in the barn be sure to post photos of progress and before/after.

This place we bought 13 years ago had a barn and several outbuildings, but I built a separate building for the shop since I use the other buildings for the animals. The barn here is probably 80 years old, built with cedar tree trunks for posts. It still had hay in the loft that was cut and put up by hand, old wagon parts, tobacco stakes, etc. I ended up putting an entire new roof above and independent of the original roof (after removing the old metal) leaving the old rafters in place. This provided a little extra support, gave me something to stand on while working, and let me easily straighten up minor waviness in the beams and ridge.

BTW, have you seen the book "Music in the Wood" by Cornelia Cornelissen? It tells the story of an violin maker building a cello and includes a CD with music played on that cello. Worth reading if you can find it. (I loaned my copy out several times and it never came back from the last time...)

JKJ