First post and a dust collector starvation question

[Danny Gale]

Hi everybody. Long time reader, first time poster.

As I'm building up my little-ish shop (appx 13ft x 25ft. it's my garage), it became clear that dust collection and air filtration were both going to be important. I've been shopping for a dust collector but trying not to spend a fortune. Friday night, a Grizzly G1030 came up on craigslist new-in-box, never-used, at $150. It's twice the dust collector I thought I needed, but also half the price of what I thought I needed. So I picked it up.

Anyway, it has a 6 inch inlet and came with a fitting that splits it to 3x 4 inch inlets and a cap for one of them. I had been thinking that I wanted to run a trash-can separator upstream of it to be really sure things like cut-off nails don't get into the impeller (I do some work with pallets and reclaimed wood and there are little bits of cut off nails all over the place).

So, a few questions:

If I only use one of the 4" inlets and block the others, do I need to worry about air-starving the 3 HP motor?
If so, is it absurd to run a separator on 6" pipe?
What's the right solution here? (I know, I know... just don't get nails in the dust collector :rolleyes:) Two separators, one on each of two of the inlets run at 4"? Don't run a separator and be more careful?
How many CFM should I expect to get out of each of the 4" pipes? If I only run two of them, the area is about the same as the 6". I would assume running all three, the 6" would be the limiter, whereas running only one, I would expect the 4" to be the limiting factor. How limiting?

[Ben Rivel]

Id pop that 4" splitter off that unit, use the 6" thats probably under the splitter, run it to an Oneida Super Dust Deputy cyclone, put the trash can under that, then keep the ducting the same size as the Super Dust Deputy's inlet with gradual drops in diameter as you approach your tool dust port sizes.

[George Bokros]

I would also glue a rare earth magnet to the outlet of the Dust Deputy to catch any metal that does not drop into the separator. I just checked mine the other day and found a staple stuck to the magnet. I read this somewhere and thought for the price I would try it and it does work.

[Brian W Smith]

Typically,the transitions that come on these DC's aren't ideal from a flow standpoint.Going with the "parent" diameter for 3or4 x diameter,leading to the inlet,before branching is probably a better approach (ha).Best of luck with your new equipment.

[Danny Gale]

Those are pricey! I'd pay more for the super dust deputy than for the DC itself... I was thinking I'd build a cyclone, Thien style, for cost effectiveness. Are the commercial ones significantly more effective?
Id pop that 4" splitter off that unit, use the 6" thats probably under the splitter, run it to an Oneida Super Dust Deputy cyclone, put the trash can under that, then keep the ducting the same size as the Super Dust Deputy's inlet with gradual drops in diameter as you approach your tool dust port sizes.

[Danny Gale]

I would also glue a rare earth magnet to the outlet of the Dust Deputy to catch any metal that does not drop into the separator. I just checked mine the other day and found a staple stuck to the magnet. I read this somewhere and thought for the price I would try it and it does work.
That's a great idea. Probably a filter-bag-saver, too.

[Van Huskey]

Are the commercial ones significantly more effective?

Unless it is a commercial "copy" of the Thien then generally yes. A taller more correctly shaped cyclone will have a much higher fine capture percentage. In any event the number one thing for air quality you can do with that DC is add real filters and get rid of the bags.

You can't reall "starve" the motor you will just get less flow. You know when you put your hand over a vacuum hose and the motor speeds up? It isn't becase it is working harder it speeds up because it has to do less work when there is no air to move, a DC will pull the fewest amps when all the blast gates are shut.

[Andy Giddings]

Danny, good advice above. If you can't spring for the cyclone, at least get an aftermarket pleated filter as per Van's advice and a home made Thien baffle, I would not recommend a trash can lid separator as they provide significant resistance compared to a baffle or cyclone. You can put the baffle in the bottom of your single stage with the poly bag and the filter replaces the cloth bag on top. Search for Phil Thien on google and you'll see plenty of examples. If you don't use a baffle or a cyclone then you are setting yourself up for a lot of work cleaning the filter. Fine Woodworking has a good guide on all of this with measurements of the various methods, unfortunately you need to be a member to get a copy of the article

[Danny Gale]

Unless it is a commercial "copy" of the Thien then generally yes. A taller more correctly shaped cyclone will have a much higher fine capture percentage. In any event the number one thing for air quality you can do with that DC is add real filters and get rid of the bags. Like the Wynn Environmental ones?


You can't reall "starve" the motor you will just get less flow. You know when you put your hand over a vacuum hose and the motor speeds up? It isn't becase it is working harder it speeds up because it has to do less work when there is no air to move, a DC will pull the fewest amps when all the blast gates are shut.I guess I was thinking of an air-cooled motor. If the motor's cooled on its own, and it probably is, I guess it's fine.

[Danny Gale]

Danny, good advice above. If you can't spring for the cyclone, at least get an aftermarket pleated filter as per Van's advice and a home made Thien baffle, I would not recommend a trash can lid separator as they provide significant resistance compared to a baffle or cyclone. You can put the baffle in the bottom of your single stage with the poly bag and the filter replaces the cloth bag on top. Search for Phil Thien on google and you'll see plenty of examples. If you don't use a baffle or a cyclone then you are setting yourself up for a lot of work cleaning the filter. Fine Woodworking has a good guide on all of this with measurements of the various methods, unfortunately you need to be a member to get a copy of the article
Hi Andy -- I guess I'm a little confused. You're suggesting I put the Thien baffle in the DC? I was hoping to separate out metal parts before they hit the impeller, which would mean an external Thien baffle on an external collector. I was planning to use a trash can for the collector part with a homemade Thien baffle (or cyclone) above. Oh, I did the search -- now I see what you mean about putting it in the DC. Seems to be effective

[Dan Friedrichs]

It's an induction motor, so it will spin at the same speed, no matter what you do to the air flow. It has it's own fan, so you don't need to worry about cooling it. If you totally block the dust collector's airflow, it does no work (because it's moving no air), and uses very little electricity. Likewise, putting a big 6" port on it will cause it to use more electricity (but still spin at the same speed, essentially).

I wouldn't worry too much about sucking up nails, unless you have really large ones. The impeller has much more mass, and won't be bothered...

[Andy Giddings]

Danny, if you put the baffle in front of the fan, it may help with the separation but you are going to have problems with the filter being blocked unless your separation is really effective. My experience with the baffle is the separation is not as good as a cyclone, although a lot of very creative people have got it closer over time. This means the filter is going to get blocked more quickly. It is significantly better than an off the shelf trash can separator lid though

The tests Fine Woodworking did also demonstrate this. With a cyclone, you'll need to clear out the filter but not very often as hardly any dust gets past. For example, I've just cleaned mine down after about 4 months of regular use and got maybe a few inches of dust in the poly bag. With the separator, I had to clean after about 4-5 bags which is why I got a cyclone. Its not a huge job to clean the filter with compressed air, but it does cut into your woodworking time.

On your other question about which filter brand - Wynn Environmental are one of the best out there, especially the Nano material.

If you do go down the baffle route and you want to put it in front of the fan, I would encourage you (if you haven't already) to spend time looking through the various designs available on Phil's website and the discussion forum. There is a lot of very good experience there

[Art Mann]

I bought one of those trash can separator lids and it worked so poorly that I threw it away. When the can was empty, it recovered maybe 2/3 of the coarse material but when it was half full, at least 50% of the material went right through it. I subsequently bought a super dust deputy and it works at near 100% effectiveness. I rarely clean my filters any more. The Oneida product is obscenely expensive and is a rip-off. Nevertheless, I bought it anyway simply because it just works.

[Mike Chalmers]

I bought one of those trash can separator lids and it worked so poorly that I threw it away. When the can was empty, it recovered maybe 2/3 of the coarse material but when it was half full, at least 50% of the material went right through it. I subsequently bought a super dust deputy and it works at near 100% effectiveness. I rarely clean my filters any more. The Oneida product is obscenely expensive and is a rip-off. Nevertheless, I bought it anyway simply because it just works.


Obscenely expensive? $170 at Woodcraft. Feel fortunate. $270 CAD here in Canada, $201 USD. Still worth every penney.

[Mike Henderson]

I have a Laguna 2Hp DC with a 6" port. The separator worked poorly and I'd get a lot of fines in the filter. I finally bit the bullet and bought a big Dust Deputy (the one with 6" input and output) and found a 35 gallon drum to mount it on. I haven't seen any degradation in the dust collection at the tools, but now, when I look in the Laguna bin, there's some fines, and very little in the filter. The big Dust Deputy works well.

If I were you, I'd stick a 6" Dust Deputy in front of your DC before I'd get a pleated filter for the output. The Dust Deputy may take enough out that you won't miss the pleated filter. Maybe add the pleated filter later when finances allow.

Mike

[James Gunning]

Danny,

I'll add to the chorus. The advice you have received so far is mostly spot on.

Here is the path I traveled. I was using a smaller unit than yours hooked up to one machine at a time.

1st: I tried a dust collector with bags - way, way too much fine dust escaping and frequent cleaning. Essentially all it did was catch the big chips and coat my shop with the fine dust that I was also breathing into my lungs.

2nd: I replaced the bags with a pleated filter and clear plastic collection bag. Filter was not from Wynn and I don't remember the advertised micron level, but Wynn Nano filters are vastly superior. This didn't work either, since the filter caught more of the dust that had been blowing into the shop through the porous bags and clogged so quickly I spent lots of time cleaning it. That chore was a PITA.

3rd: I tried a trash can separator. It caught the chips until the can got 2/3 full, then sucked them into the clear collection bag, filling it rapidly. The trash can separator was useless for the fines, the filter clogged as quickly as before. Plus, the trash can separator cut the airflow significantly. Don't waste your time and money on a trash can separator.

4th: It was apparent a cyclone was the answer. I bought a metal Super Dust Deputy and paired it with the blower from my DC. I bought the Wynn Nano filter as well and fabbed up the frame and mounts. It has worked a treat. The chips and virtually all the fines are captured in the cyclone bin. A small amount of the very finest dust is caught in the Nano filter. It depends on what I'm doing, but I now need to clean the filter about twice a year. A bit more often if I'm using my drum sander a lot.

Some folks have done Thien baffle builds that claim excellent separation. Others not so much. If you get the build exactly right, you might approach cyclone efficiency, but probably not equal it. If I had your blower, I would get an Oneida SDD XL and a Wynn filter. That would give you a decent system using what you have already. The only weakness is the G1030 has a 12" impeller. It really needs a 14" or so. The airflow will be limited by the impeller, but with a motor that size you will not have to worry about it overheating. The XL SDD has a 6" inlet and matches the Grizzly blower at 6". Use at least a 6" pickup duct/hose all the way to your machines or you will choke the airflow and waste the blower HP.

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[Danny Gale]

Thanks so much for all the advice. I think my plan is to set up a dust deputy upstream of the DC and put a magnet somewhere between the dust deputy and the DC. I'm not so worried about damaging the impeller -- I am worried about dropping some sparks into a bag of fine sawdust, though.

[Matthew Hills]

Is the SDD better than any of the compact cyclones on the market? (laguna / jet / grizzly / oneida .?)

Matt

[Mike Chalmers]

Is the SDD better than any of the compact cyclones on the market? (laguna / jet / grizzly / oneida .?)

MattDefinitely. IHave used both. Went back to my SDD/2hp set up after buying a 3hp King (Laguna/Jet etc). No comparison. The SDD is not what I would call a short cyclone.

[Randall J Cox]

Here's my 2 cents since I just finished by DC system (twice) in my small shop. Did a single stage DC with 1.75HP motor and 12" impeller first with a Wynn nano filter. Worked great for about a month until the paper filter filled up with dust and the pressure went up due (using a magnehelic inches of water gauge) to it being clogged. Bit the bullet and totally rebuilt my DC and added a SDD for another $180 and now it works like it should. And I don't have to worry about any metal hitting the impeller. You need a cyclone. Don't do what I just did. Randy

[Mike Henderson]

I have a Laguna 2HP and was very dissatisfied with the amount of swarf that got through to the filter. I stuck the big SDD (I think it's called the XL) in front of the Laguna and now, only a few fines get into the Laguna drum, and very little into the filter. I would never recommend the Laguna to anyone. But the SDD, yes.

Mike