Dust Collection - help deciding best approach.

[Elaine Fraser]

I have been trying to read about dust collection and I am not sure what I should do based on finances, need and the fact that I don’t have the same selection of DC’s in Vancouver, BC. I have tried to read Bill Pentz’s site and now I’m afraid :)


I have a 11x20 single car garage. I have a table saw, mitre saw, router and 13” planer. I have just bought 6” pvc pipe for the main line, i will use 4” flex to the tools, these runs will be short. My planner will be on the longest length of flex at the end of the 10’ line, but the fan really blows the chips far (dewalt 735). The main line will be 10’. I am a new hobbyist and I only work on weekends. I attach a shop vac to the sander.


I looked into an Oneida V series 2 HP model, but since it needs to be shipped from the east, the cost is about $3000 cad. That is over my budget. BusyBee has 2hp cyclone on sale for about $1600, this model looks similar to the Laguna and King Industrial models. I’ve heard mixed reviews about this style of cyclone.


There is a Cantek 5 HP dual bag model on Craigslist for $350. I searched to see if anyone has done a mod with a 3 or a 5 hp DC with a XL Super Dust Deputy, but I can’t find anything other than the HF 2 HP mod. Could I get rid of the two bags and filter outside if I add the XL Super Dust Deputy? I’m concerned I may be missing something about airflow and burn out the motor. If I keep the door a jar would that be enough to replace the lost air from filtering outside?


I am concerned about footprint since the double bag, plus the Dust deputy would take up too much room, so I would only be interested in this option if I could make it smaller.


I’m driving myself a bit mad trying to determine the best option at a reasonable cost. I am interested in getting as much of the fine dust as possible which is why i am wondering about the 5 HP model (based on reading Bill Pentz site).


Does anyone have any knowledge or experience converting a 3 or a 5 hp DC? Or should I just go with the BusyBee 2 HP cyclone?


I have thought about buying in the States, but I would need to pay a second tax, and I’m not sure about duty on an Asian import.


thanks in advance.

[Jim Andrew]

I set up my shop in '05, with a 2hp woodsucker cyclone. Ended up replacing it with a 3hp last year, and built an outside air dump, with a blast gate so I can use my filter in cold weather. The 3hp is a huge improvement, but 5hp would be better. Cost of good equipment and piping is expensive.

[Andy Giddings]

If budget and space is an issue I would recommend getting a single stage Jet/Delta/Shopfox unit either new or used and modifying with a cyclone/aftermarket filter. Apart from HP, impeller size is going to be important and the HF unit has a smaller impeller. There are plenty of examples where people are using this setup successfully with plenty of suction and excellent filtration. Keep the main duct as big as possible until very close to the tool in question, then use a very short run of flex. Your 4 inch ports are probably going to limit the effective collection so you may want to consider enlarging where possible. Don't set up a complicated duct system with lots of gates and flex as you'll encounter significant pressure drops. A good straight run to a single machine that is switched around to whichever tool you want to use is going to maximize your collection

[Don Kondra]

Hi Elaine,

With a budget in mind, the used Cantek with the XL Super Dust deputy would give you a darn good system.

Elite Tools has the XL SDD for $350 and a 17 gallon container for $150. For the container, you can easily adapt a food grade metal or plastic barrel. They can usually be had for ~ $25.

Both of the above items are oversize and are an additional $50 for shipping.

http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/ has Wynn nano filters but it will be ~ $400 by the time you get one to Canada. If you can exhaust outside, go for it. There will be very little material that escapes the cyclone.

The problem with the short/stubby style cyclones is quite a bit of material makes it into the filter. This means you will need to be vigilant in cleaning the filter regularly and emptying the bag under it.

I did a mod with a BB 2 hp/11" impeller/8 amp motor and get ~ 500 cfm with a 5" main. It is only adequate.

Their current 2 Hp/12 3/4" impeller set up goes on sale for ~ $600. That should give you somewhere around 750 CFM, that would be alright.

The Cantek motor/impeller would be heads and shoulders above either and could even be used as an ambient air filter when doing hand held routing !

I would suggest you run a main pipe the same size as the cyclone inlet and increase all your tool collection ports to at least 5".

Cheers, Don

[Brian W Smith]

If the Cantek 5hp was local,I'd have to show some real restraint to not snag it.And we build systems,custom rolled cyclones,impellers,yadayada.

I'd first off,not make any modifications that weren't reversible.Oh,we'd probably roll up a cyclone but,don't completely give up on a good bagger.I would go with more bags,of a smaller diam.Think a bank of 4? 12" or so bags,coming out of a manifold...hugging a wall.Quality bags can be very efficient.Wrap the whole thing in a "house".See what I mean,we'd build something with it.

And yes,venting outside,weather permitting should be on every system if at all possible.

[Don Jarvie]

Give the size of your shop I'd get the Cantek use it as is with the 2 bags. 5 hp will be plently. Then add the 4" flex hose and move it from machine to machine as needed. When you don't need the DC the hose can be stored out of the way.

I did the same thing with a 3 hp Relient. All my machine dust ports are on one side of the shop so this system works.

[Brian Brightwell]

In my shop the cost of my dust collection system is exceeded only by the building itself. However, it is a necessity with large power tools. A wide belt sander will not work without DC.
If I was just starting woodworking I would consider going Neanderthal.

[Doug Hepler]

Elaine,
My shop is about the same size and setup as yours. I don't have a TS but I do have a band saw, a lathe and a drill press. The fan on my planer was broken by fragments of a broken board, so I have to use suction to control the dust (chips, mostly) from it. My main dust collector is a Jet DC-1100VX-CK (1.5 HP). I have an inexpensive shop vac dedicated (pretty much) to my router and another that switches between the lathe and the miter saw. The Jet has two inlet ports that I fitted with manual blast gates, It is shared (one at a time) between the lathe, planer and band saw. It provides plenty of CFM and is easy to clean. After two years I have barely begun to fill the first bag.

I am commenting on your question with some reservations, because I think mine is a minority view. I can only report where I came down after some years of studying this subject.

1. To leap right into it, I think that people have unrealistic expectations of cyclones. IMO they are not worth the money or the space if either resource is tight. They do not increase CFM or static pressure, they just cause the larger particles to drop out of the airstream before they get to the filter. That's nice but all it means is that you don't have to clean or change the filter or bag as often. In that perspective cyclones are a luxury for people like us. Get a canister unit with a filter that you can clean easily. If you have 220 volt service, consider a 2HP Jet like the 1200VX-CK1 It might fit your budget.

2. Sanding at the lathe is my major source of dust. The Jet and a shop vac do pretty well.

3. The miscellaneous nuisance dust sources are my biggest problem, especially hand-held routers. My simple PC390 router has no dust port. Next is the miter saw. The hookup to a shop vac gets most of the fines but I still have to sweep up sawdust (fine chips) after every session.

4. Although point-of-source collection is a key strategy, given the above, consider getting an air cleaner that you can hang from the ceiling. I had one in my previous shop and it worked wonderfully at preventing accumulations of fine dust that I had not been able or willing to collect at the source. I don't really have space for one in my present shop, but I am still considering this option.

5. The earlier point about hand tools is a good one. I use planes and card scrapers a lot and their use really cuts down on sanding time and dust.

Best wishes

Doug

[Robert Engel]

Whoa!! A 5HP or even 3 for your set up is WAY way too much. A 1 1/2 or 2HP collector will work fine.
I would try to get a cannister filter or vent out side.

Don't bother with ducts. I simple setup like a centrally located collector with 4" flex to your machines will work fine.
The biggest collection issue you have is the planer. The other machines are more difficult to collect I wouldn't stress over them. You will always be doing a lot of clean up by hand around a router or miter saw.

Air filter and respirator or mask or just as important in a space this small.

I think you could have a good set up for around $4-500.

Remember Bill Pentz is all about actual fine particle dust collection, which is both impractical and unnecessary for the hobbyist. Most of us are just trying to keep from getting buried in shavings from planers and jointers. This is why every collector Clear Vue sells is 5HP.

I rely on my respirator and air filter to protect lungs, not a DC.

[Larry Frank]

I think that a 1.5 -5 hp collector with a canister filter would work well in your space. Use it with a single hose to the machine you are using.

I do not agree that fine dust collection is unnecessary....it is really important. The BEST way to control dust is at the source. Once it is in the air it will be on your clothes and hair and everything else and unless you leave your clothes in the shop, you will in your house.

As to a respirator, they work well especially if you have a good one. I do not like using one as it makes breathing more difficult as you get older. I wore one at work for many years so I understand wearing one. At work we were fit tested to make certain they worked properly.

[Doug Hepler]

Robert

Thanks for mentioning a dust mask. I agree that this is an important part of workshop safety. The effectiveness of a face mask is limited by the fit of the mask and how difficult it is to breathe through it. A good mask will have a flexible margin to fit well against the face, especially over the bridge of the nose, and be adjustable to fit different sizes. It should have a one-way valve to allow easy exhalation and avoid fogging eyewear. It should carry a NIOSH N90 or N95 rating (or Canadian equivalent)

Doug

[Chris Kiely]

Hi Elaine. I have a 21x21 garage as my shop and I use a 1.5hp general international with a good filter. I have no idea what the impeller size is. I cut a 6" hole in it and run 6" pipe as a main and then 5" or 4" flex to my tools with blast gates. I just bought round ducting from Home Depot and taped it all together to minimize leaks. The system works just fine. Any improvements from here are subject to the law of diminishing returns.
A little dust isn't going to kill anyone. If the activity you're doing is creating more dust than your system can handle, then there are respirators available.
The point I'm trying to make is don't sweat it too much. There are no hard and fast rules - only what works best for you.

[glenn bradley]

Dust collection conversations are always interesting and sometimes polarizing. Bill Pentz is often quoted or misquoted but, somewhat universally used as the extreme scare tactics site for DC. Your needs and your satisfaction will vary with what you are doing and realistically "who" you are.

I failed to take dust collection seriously early on and now take medication twice a day and likely will for the rest of my life. The guy standing next to me in a crowd may never wear a respirator, use a 5 micron bagger to vent fines back into his enclosed shop air, consider an open window adequate ventilation for spraying finishes and never have a problem. The dice are yours to roll.

From the extremes of "5HP minimum" to "a shop vac is fine" you will have to cull your answer. IMHO, depending on machine locations, a 2HP unit with limited ducting combined with a hose to move between certain machines could work for you.

Your real challenge is that it never gets real warm in your area IIRC. This means that you may not want to vent 1000CFM of toasty shop air into the wild during those blustery winter months. Even though I am in Southern California, my shop layout has me leaving the rollup door semi-permanently closed. This means I vent back into my breathing air. This means a cyclone was the desired format for me. There can be endless discussion on 'why a cyclone' but, let's just say I like to spend my shop time woodworking and not cleaning filters.

Another polarizing topic is the 'bagger with add-on cyclone' topic. Things that move air are designed with certain criteria in order optimize their performance at a given price/performance point. Placing a giant "resistor" in the path of your bag unit fouls this design curve. Cyclones are built to expect the resistance of the separator. Fan curves, motor specs and so forth are all selected or designed with this in mind. I am not saying that many folks have not had success with pre-separaters added to units not designed for them. They are better than without if you have to breath your exhaust but, you take a decent hit on performance.

[Elaine Fraser]

Thank you everyone for responding, sorry it's taken me awhile to respond back.

I wasn't able to get the 5HP Cantek it was only later that I realized it was 220V 3 phase - i'm not set up for that.

I did decide against the cyclone, as Doug mentioned it doesn't add a lot of benefit! I decided to buy the 3HP at Busybee. I got there only to find out they had sold out and wouldn't have new stock until New Year. Since I just needed to make a decision I chose the 2HP model that has the 12 3/4" impeller, the impeller on this model is the same size as the 3 HP model. I also got the metal dust deputy.

I'm hoping that this will work - i've not tried it yet since I'm still setting it up.

I am using a North respirator with a 95 noish rating, but I find it hard to breath after a while. I'm guessing fit is an issue. I also want to set up an air cleaner too, my garage ceiling is not strong enough to hold up anything, it just the 2x4 roof rafters. I have read that some people have had success with a fan and thick filter. I may give this a try since it won't cost much.

I appreciate all of you taking the time to respond.

[Andy Giddings]

Am confused, Elaine - you said you decided against a cyclone but then you got a metal dust deputy, which is a cyclone?

[Robert Engel]

Elaine I think you made a good choice. I would suggest a cannister filter.

Your 2x4 roof rafters will certainly hold an air filtration unit. Rather than attaching directly to rafters, I would surface mount a couple 2x4's with lag bolts. This way you can place the unit much more easily.

In a shop your size, the filtration unit does not need to be much. You may even want to consider building one. There are many DIY videos on YouTube.

[Elaine Fraser]

Am confused, Elaine - you said you decided against a cyclone but then you got a metal dust deputy, which is a cyclone?

Andy, I meant the already made cyclone for $1600. Given what I had read I wasn't sure it was worth the added money.

[Andy Giddings]

Ah, ok, understood

[James Gunning]

Elaine,

If you bought a metal SDD, you may want to look at this thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?248523-First-post-and-a-dust-collector-starvation-question/page2

[Elaine Fraser]

Thanks James for the tip. I'll see about getting an earth magnet. Cheers.

[Doug Hepler]

Eaine

Did you know that the latest issue of Fine Woodworking has an article on duct collection? The recommendations are essentially similar to the ones I made, except he uses a smaller dust collector and moves it from tool to tool. (Excuse my lack of humility)

Doug

[Jim Dwight]

I tried to post a document here I wrote about wood dust but it's a little big for this website. But if you look at OSHA's recommendation for the level of wood dust that is OK for occupational exposure, 8 hours per day for 5 days a week, it is a lot higher than Bill Pentz's recommendation. I like Bill's website and use it for DC information but you have to understand Bill has health issues that force him to filter not just his shop air but also his house air. Things that do not bother most of us cause him medical issues. So he controls dust to a lower level. He can't go outside when it is a little dusty and can't be out long even when it is clean. So if you are as sensitive as he is, then what he recommends for a DC is a good idea (although I don't think Clear Vue is the only good cyclone).

If you further look at the Dylos results on this website and use a translation on Bill's website you find out that the ~500,000 in Dylos units you need to get to for your shop to exceed the OSHA recommended level (that is for 40 hours a week exposure). I saw no reported results with or without dust collection of a Dylos reading near 500,000. 10,000 was about the maximum. Bill Pentz thinks that 0.1mg/m3 (instead of the 5 mg/m3 OSHA recommends) is right. That's a factor of 50 less and means that our shops can get there. But with a small DC running, the reports I've seen don't exceed 6,000 - not a 5 hp DC but a 1.5 or 2 hp DC. So I don't think the measurements support the need for 5 hp DCs for most of us.

A dust collector is certainly a tool where going a bit overboard is not a terrible idea. At the bare minimum it will help to reduce your cleanup (as long as you discharge outside or have a good filter). But for a small shop (mine is 14x24) I don't think there is room for a 5hp DC and, fortunately, I think the data says most of us do not need one. I use a shop vacuum with a dust deputy cyclone and a quasi hepa filter. If I added a DC tomorrow, I would buy a HF 2hp (using a 20% off coupon) and add an Oneida Super Dust Deputy. I would discharge outside (my shop is not heated or cooled). I had a 1 hp DC and it was too small. It helped but couldn't keep up with the planner or jointer. Correctly ducted, I think the HF can. I used a cartridge filter on the 1hp after trying bad and better bags but I hated cleaning it. And I had to do it a lot. That is what the cyclone minimizes which is a BIG deal to me. I also wouldn't want to discharge outside without the cyclone to get most of the dust. My dust deputy on the shop vac gets even fine drywall dust. The reports I've seen on the super dust deputy says it doesn't do as well but I think it will be OK for me. I would arrange it to fit into about a 2 foot square space (that is an advantage of the HF with the motor and blower easily separable).

The one thing you do not want to do under any circumstances is use a DC (like I did) with coarse bags. I think my first ones were 25 microns. That collects your chips but blows the fine dust that is a hazard up in your face. Don't do it. Use 1 micron bags or, better, a good cartridge filter. Spend money on filtration before going to higher HP. Or discharge outside if your setup supports it.

[Deb Clarkson]

Get the Cantek if it's still available. Build a Thien separator for it and vent outside. You can keep the footprint to the diameter of the barrel you use since you won't have to have space for a filter if you vent outside. A shop that small really doesn't need ductwork, just locate the DC in a central spot and use a short length of flex hose.

[John Lankers]

I think Deb's suggestion is worth considering if your electrical panel can handle it - it would be a heck of a deal.
However, since you're on the "wet" coast I don't know how venting outside would affect the RH in your shop, a dust collector can easily replace the air inside the shop in a matter of minutes.

[Sam Layton]

Hi Elaine,

A lot of advice has been given to you. Keep in mind that everyone has there own idea of what is best. It is the fine dust that you can't see that will get you. That being said, don't stress about it, just don't ignore it.
I think you have made a good decision so far. I think your set up will work just fine. My shop is 1700 sf, and I have a 3 hp cyclone. Works just fine.

I could not work all of the time with a respirator. I would highly recommend an air cleaner. I think it would be to your advantage to reinforce your ceiling so it would support the air cleaner. That would keep your air clean, and you would not have to ware the respirator.

Sam

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, I wouldn't upgrade your Jet, given your cost constraints. Build a Thien Pre-separator for your DC and get a Dust Deputy for your shop vac. Replace your bag filter with a cannister filter.

I also wouldn't collect chips from the lathe in a DC. For the lathe I prefer to use my air cleaner mounted above my workstation, and to allow the shavings to fall where they may. Lathe chips on anything bigger than a chair spindle can quickly clog my dc and fill the collector.

I use my dust deputy / shop vac on the drill press, router, and sander. The tablesaw is the worst dust offender in my shop because it SPRAYS dust out.

[mike mcilroy]

Grizzly ships to Canada very reasonably priced. They respond to email questions prior to purchase. I went with their 3 hp cyclone and have been incredibly happy. Had an issue with the filter cleaning brush on shipping that they took care of within 2 weeks ( I had the new brush installed on the filter in under two weeks no charges) of me sending pics in an email. The performance has been amazing too. My shop is @ 26X26. I recommend ducting the system. I tried a portable single stage and flex hose before and hated it. Plan your ducting with the option to add on byplacing some wyes that are capped but can be used later. Pay the extra now go a little bigger than what you think and be done with it the first time.