Side mount wood drawer runners issue

[Prashun Patel]

I have a cabinet that has side mounted wood drawer slides. Slots have been routed in the drawer sides to accept the slides. I have made the runners nice and snug, but mounting them is a PITA!

By inserting the drawer into the case 1/2 way with the runners extending past the drawer back to the back of the cabinet, I can achieve accurate registration for the rear screw.

That single screw holds the runner securely enough such that when I pull out the drawer, it stays in place. I can then clamp the runner to the case, and screw the front screw in place, and the runner is secure...

IN THEORY.

When I do it, I inevitably end up with a tight drawer.

WHAT DO YOU DO?

I can only think of 2 options:
1) Shave more off the runners to allow some play. This is what I normally do, but it feels like a cop out.
2) Leave the front screw off and secure it only in the back. I had this thought because with only the rear screw fixed, the drawer works brilliantly. The web frame holds the weight when the drawer is in the closed position. The rear screw is what really keeps the drawer from tipping back as it closes. That front screw seems superfluous. As things expand and shrink, it also seems like having only a single fixed point will alleviate seasonal tightening.

Thoughts?

[mreza Salav]

with side mount drawers I find the clearance of sides of drawers to the box is very critical. If's slightly less or more than the tolerance, the slides won't operate smoothly. To get that precise I'd push the drawer on one side and measure the gap on one side (that has two be twice). This way the amount of error will be 1/2.

[lowell holmes]

When you tighten the front screw, does it induce twist in the runners?

[Robin Frierson]

When I build side mount wooden runners I add a third runner on the bottom. The Stickley furniture I have does it that way and it seems to make them work well without binding. I built my daughters desk and nightstand with those drawers 12-13 years ago and they still work fine. I used wider screw holes to accomodate any movement. Just use parafin on the runners and they slid great.

[Charles Lent]

You need to know the actual thickness of the drawer slide, the dimension of the gap around your drawer face, and the outer width of the drawer that you will be installing plus the total gap of the drawer to face frame. The mounting position of the slides, in this case, needs to be the thickness of the drawer slide away from the drawer when the drawer is centered. Taking the exact width of the drawer and adding the thickness of the two slides plus the total drawer face gap should give you the width of the space that you need to make between the cabinet mounting points ofr the drawer slides. It needs to me within about 1/16". Any error significantly more or less than this will make for tight slides. If this space is correct, you shouldn't be having the problem that you are having. Most slides are a standard 1/2" thickness, but you will need to know the exact thickness of the slides that you will be using before you begin.

Kreg makes a kind of shelf piece with a magnet that holds your drawer slide in place on it, that you can then clamp to your cabinet face frame. It extends into the cabinet and holds the drawer slide at yourdesired level while you install the screws through the slide and into the cabinet, or you can make a spacer of the correct height that you clamp in place inside the cabinet and you rest the slide on it while you install the screws. This Kreg jig is reversible, so it's used for both left and right slides. Kreg also makes a kind of shelf bracket pair that you clamp to the outside of the face frame of the cabinet, to hold the drawer at the correct level in the extended position while you install the screws that hold the slide to the drawer. This jig is sold in pairs, and the Kreg wide pad vise grip style clamps for clamping these jigs in place won't mar the face frame. You will need one of these clamps when using the first jig and then a pair of them when using the second jig. I think Sommerfeld also offers similar jigs.

I have these Kreg jigs and they work well. I could not count how many drawers that I've successfully installed with them.

https://www.amazon.com/Rok-Hardware-Magnetic-Mounting-Brackets/dp/B01JNSSI4E/ref=sr_1_49?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1477496952&sr=1-49-spons&keywords=kreg+jig&psc=1


I'm just a satisfied Kreg Tool owner. I have no other connection with them or Sommerfeld.

Charley

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks Mreza. I don't quite follow your method.

Lowell, when I tighten the front screw, yes, I suspect it does. Because when tightened, the drawer does not slide.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Prashun,

If I am reading this correctly, you are installing wooden drawer slides and when you install the front screw the drawer doesn't slide as easily as when installed with just the back screw?

[Prashun Patel]

exactly, ken

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am sure you are countersinking the screws.

It makes me wonder if the slide is moving up or down in the slot( becoming non-parallel with the slot), if the slide is expanding vertically or if it's expanding horizontally becoming too wide for the drawer width plus the 2 slides.

Is the angle of the drawer body with relation to the body appear to change in any way?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

It might be interesting to use some chalk on the slides and see where it's hitting to identify the cause.

[mreza Salav]

Sorry Prashun, I mis-read your initial post so my first reply is irrelevant.
I think the issue could what ken is referring to: non-parallel as in the front of one slide going up and the other going down as you move the drawer.
This can be cause by a very slight deviation in your slots.
Did you try securing the front screw on one of the slides only and see what happens?

[Andrew Hughes]

Here's a trick I used for drawer slides.Mill up a couple runners that are long so that they stick out from the face of the cabinet.And mount them with your screws.
Then look at them like winding sticks to see if your set up is coplane and the back and front are the same width.
Then you can see where the adjustments need to be made.
This will give you a good reference of what the drawer space looks like.
Good luck

[Glenn de Souza]

Just out of curiosity, why does shaving the runners as part of the final fitting feel like a cop-out to you?

[Prashun Patel]

Glen-
Because I've shaved them to exactly fit the slots with minimal slop. Introducing slop by further shaving to subsidize my inability to mount properly is my normal mode of operation. Just try to elevate my ability to be more accurate here.

Here's another issue I have not shared: The slots in the sides are not the same height because my router bucked and I had to make one of the slots wider by a smidge. The slots are both parallel to the door travel, but they are at different heights, so it would be tricky to test for wind.

Ken, I'm properly countersunk.

Mreza- When I secure only the back screws, it works perfectly. Did not try just the front screws. When I install just one runner, it binds. This means it is not the fault of the other runner being out of parallel.

I think it just requires drilling the holes with the same precision that one would drill hinge screw holes. However, I'm in tight, awkward quarters. I could probably get it through trial and error but I thought there might be a more expedient way. This is why I wonder about the necessity of the front screw altogether. In future designs if I use this side guide (I honestly have come to prefer the center below guide when possible) design then I think a single screw on the guide and then adding a runner below the drawer to take the weight off the front of the web frame (or not even having a runner if the drawer contents will be light enough) might be an easier way to go.

Has anyone had experience doing this?

[glenn bradley]

I make mine somewhat adjustable. I still shoot for the snug fit you describe but, this let's me have some adjustability.

346445 . 346442

The larger holes have oversized through holes and oversized couterbores that accept screws with washers. Once adjusted the smaller holes accept tight-fitting screws.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I suspect this is a situation where you just have to be there...just too many variables for the web.

Can you tell if the binding is on the vertical axis (yaw)? Or around the horizontal axis perpendicular to runner (pitch)? Or around horizontal axis into the case (roll)?

If yaw, I'd probably blame the runners as being too wide (or slots too deep). If pitch, then maybe runners are too short (slots too tall). If roll, then runners are twisted ...have wind.

But since pulling front screw fixes it, its none of the above. Probably.

Can you pull the back screw and binding also goes away? If so, I'd suspect that the screw pair is either warping the runner (Lowell's theory), or if you're using flat-heads - - could the head be flattening and widening the runner? ...like adjustable miter-track runner.

Good luck!

[Prashun Patel]

I *am* using flatheads. When I tighten front screw just enough to hold it, but not enough to stop all wiggle, and certainly not enough to expand it in width, it still binds.

I am 99% sure it's because I haven't aligned my runners properly. I was just looking for an easy way to align the runners (without just measuring it, marking it, and hoping for the best (my method to date) or affirmation that I only need a rear screw on a light drawer.

[Glenn de Souza]

This is a shot in the dark, but could your front hole require a larger pilot hole because you're encountering some tiny amount of expansion in the runner when you drive the screw in?

I may have totally misunderstood the problem, but I'm getting a picture in my head of what can happen when you are making a table saw sled and the runners that you took the time to mill for a perfect sliding fit are now tight when you screw them to the sled base. When this has happened to me it has been expansion of the runner due to the screw, and the solution has been a larger pilot hole to allow the screw to draw the parts together without engaging and expanding the runner itself.

[Prashun Patel]

OOOH, I'm dumb! Why didn't I think about expanding the runner hole?!?!?! Thanks, Glenn . I am going to try that. That will basically make the runner adjustable in the dimension I need it. On the remaining 2 drawers I'll do them the "of course I should have thought to do it that way originally" way that Other Glenn showed.

[Marty Schlosser]

I believe Mo has hit the nail on the head, as it sure sounds as though your cabinet's gable(s) is(are) bowed. When the screw is in the front it could be pivoting the slide, making it tighere... and when it's in the back it's somehow pulling it inward to where there is likely a lower (narrower, that is) spot.

I'd check this very carefully.


Thanks Mreza. I don't quite follow your method.

Lowell, when I tighten the front screw, yes, I suspect it does. Because when tightened, the drawer does not slide.

[John TenEyck]

Making the pilot hole larger won't make the runner adjustable, it will just make it so that the shank of the screw doesn't expand the runner and cause it to bind. The screw head will still automatically center the slide when it engages the countsink.

John

[Glenn de Souza]

Hi, could it be adjustable if he used a countersunk pan head screw and the hole was large enough to allow a bit of movement? Of course, ideally the countersink would need to leave a flat shoulder, say like a Forstner bit.

Some people, myself included, mount false drawer fronts this way, except the countersink part.

[John TenEyck]

True enough.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

Prashun,

From your first post it appears that you are using side mounted runners in addition to web frames between the drawers. That seems redundant, but if the web frames are not racked from one side of the case to the other you should be able to index off them to locate the side runners. Just get one point of the runners fixed as you have done and rip a strip to fit between that point on the runner and the web frame so that they remain parallel. If you are using a rail at the front as opposed to a full web frame, index off the bottom of the case starting at the top with a wide strip of plywood and cut it down progressively to support the lower runners.

[Prashun Patel]

The web frame overstates it. There is a face frame but no runners or kickers.

John t was right in that the counter sinks prevent adjustment. In the end I just adjusted the top edge with a plane to make it work smoothly.

I also had to reduce the thickness of the runners because the interior wall was not perfectly flat. This caused the runner to bow ever so slightly under tension of the screws.

Thanks to everyone. Next time pan head screws and flat bottomed countersinks for my runners.