Table saw advice

[Brian Bres]

I acquired a Delta Unisaw for free. It is a 3 phase 5hp 34-806 made in 93. It has a mobile base and side table. It is a monster of a saw an much more than I need. But can you ever have too much saw?

Would you install a VFD and run it as is, swap the motor to a 3hp single phase, sell it and buy a used 3hp single phase saw?

VFD is anywhere from 150 and 600 bucks.

New motor is between 400 and 600.

Sell and re-buy would be a hassle and take some time.

I have an older Craftsman job site saw that just does not cut the mustard for me anymore so I plan on selling it and using the profit to partially fund the modifications to the Unisaw.

The biggest things I do is ripping down and dado'ing plywood.

Your thoughts? Cost is always a factor.

[Michael Zerance]

It sounds like this is way more saw than you need. It would be fine if it functioned for you as it sits but it doesn't and you're going to have to invest money and effort into making it work for you. If it were me, I would sell both saws and buy a different saw that best fits your needs and your shop.

[Rick Lizek]

http://www.factorymation.com/acdrives?page=2
VFD is $339 plus I would spend the extra for dust proof enclosure.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=297-3540&PMPXNO=952399&PARTPG=INLMK3
A static converter is $191. You will lose 1/3 hp which would give you a little over 3 hp. Static converter uses a capacitor to create the third leg and then drops out so you're basically running on single phase. it's your cheapest option. A rotary phase converter could run $1000

[Matt Day]

In an ideal world, what kind of saw would you have based on your shop space and needs? If it's anything but a portable job site saw that you need to put away every time, they all have the footprint.

So just because it's a 5hp 3 phase saw doesn't mean it's "too much saw" IMO. It's the same physical size saw as a 3hp single phase, or a 1.5 Uni or hybrid. The amount of infeed/outfeed/support table of course makes it bigger, but that's the same no matter which saw you have.

I suggest keeping it and adding a phase converter. I'm not sure (someone please chime in) but I think you can use a 3hp VFD on it ($200) if you need to save a few bucks. I'd rather have th functionality of the VFD vs the static phase converter. Same hp in the end.

And by the way, nice gloat on a FREE saw!!!

[Dave Cav]

Get a VFD and don't look back.

I am running about 2/3 of my shop tools on VFDs. I use almost exclusively Factorymation TECO VFDs, although the models available on Ebay for about half the price are getting good reviews and I will probably try one of them next time I need one. All of them are standard enclosures and I just blow the sawdust out of them whenever I remember, which isn't very often.

You don't necessarily need a 5 HP VFD to run a 5 HP table saw. I have been running a 5 HP Delta 12/14" table saw (often with a 14" blade) with a 3 HP VFD for years, as are several other guys over at OWWM. It has NEVER tripped out on overcurrent and I have cut some pretty big stuff, probably bigger than you would cut on a Unisaw. A VFD will put out 150% of it's rated capacity for some time before it shuts down on over current, and with normal cutting, you're very rarely, if ever, going to even pull full load amps on your saw unless you have a very bad pinch. Another advantage of a VFD is it replaces your motor starter and all of the associated wiring.

[Eric Rimel]

Buy a VFD. 3HP delivered to your door is about $141. I bought a Huang Yang on EBay for my 36" bandsaw. Easy to wire. Nice score !

[eugene thomas]

to run 5 hp 3 phase motor wouldn't ya need 7.5 to 10 hp vfd...

[Brian Bres]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Keep the recommendations coming.
I forgot to add in the OP that the saw also has a 52" unifence.


to run 5 hp 3 phase motor wouldn't ya need 7.5 to 10 hp vfd...
Eugene,
Why is that? A 5hp VFD can not power a 5hp motor? I am not being a wise guy, truly interested in learning about these VFD things. I have not heard of them before yesterday when I found out I have a 3 phase motor and I know very little about them.

[Mike Henderson]

That's absolutely not "too much saw". Get a VFD and don't look back.

If you absolutely do not want to go with a VFD, get a 3 HP single phase motor for it. 3 HP will do anything you need to do and will be less expensive than a 5 HP.

Mike

[Van Huskey]

Get a VFD and be done with it. I would suggest not choosing one of the budget Chinese eBay offerings, while some people are happy with them there are also quite a few horror stories.

[Bryan Lisowski]

I would keep the saw, you got it for free, so whatever option you do you will still be ahead of the game. Selling a 3 phase could be tough since most residential properties don't have 3 phase.

[Brian Bres]

Thanks again all for your recommendations. It seems a VFD wins. I purchased a Huanyang off ebay. 4k 5hp unit. Fingers crossed it works. Since I don't plan on cutting 6" hardwood made from steel I think I will be ok based on everything I have read. But there is nothing like real world experience. Time will tell.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/222271460477

This weekend I plan on running a 220v 30 amp receptacle too the front of the garage for power, I have a 100 amp sub panel in there. The VFD will be mounted on the left side of the saw cabinet. I will wire the motor direct to the VFD, install a on/off switch on the machine to utilize the VFD control circuits. The saw will then be plug and cord connected. I hope to never have any other 3 phase equipment in the future.

[Dave Cav]

I was looking at the same VFD for next time. Please let us know how it works out.

[Eric Rimel]

I hope your install goes as simple as mine. I had my bandsaw up and running 10 minutes after I wired a Huang Yang 3 HP unit to it. I don't have a switch wired to it yet, I just leave it unplugged when not in use so the fan isn't running constantly. I'm extremely happy with mine. There's only a dozen or so settings to monkey with and you'll be cutting. There's info online for which settings those are. If you're in a pinch, give me a holler. I have all the setting changes written down, although based on your motor a couple would be different, easy to determine.

[Brian Bres]

I was looking at the same VFD for next time. Please let us know how it works out.

Will do Dave


I hope your install goes as simple as mine. I had my bandsaw up and running 10 minutes after I wired a Huang Yang 3 HP unit to it. I don't have a switch wired to it yet, I just leave it unplugged when not in use so the fan isn't running constantly. I'm extremely happy with mine. There's only a dozen or so settings to monkey with and you'll be cutting. There's info online for which settings those are. If you're in a pinch, give me a holler. I have all the setting changes written down, although based on your motor a couple would be different, easy to determine.

Thanks for the offer Eric. I will certainly keep you in mind if I run into a jam.

[Brian Bres]

Sorry about the delay. I installed the 30 amp 220v circuit for the saw. I ran 3/4 emt from the 100 amp sub panel at the back of the garage to the front wall next to the garage door. I had to redo one of the sections because I was a bit rusty on bending, I have not bent pipe for almost 20 years, LOL. Good thing emt is cheap. I also added a 4" box on the ceiling for some 20 amp receptacles. I put a L14-30 receptacle on the wall, it is a 4 conductor 220v 30 amp twist lock. A 12' cord and matching plug are on the saw side. I am going to mount the VFD on the saw. Once I get the saw wired up I will update how it works.

Unfortunately life has gotten in the way of the saw install so I have been using the Dewalt job site saw for the projects I need to get done right away, like a new dresser for my daughter.

[Brian Bres]

I never utilized a VFD before.
I wired up the saw today. I have a 12' 10 awg SJ cord going to a 1900 box mounted to the left side of the cabinet. The VFD is mounted a few inches above the 1900 box. The motor wires enter the rear of the 1900 box through the cabinet with a 1/2" connector. There is a chase nipple on the top of the 1900 box for the wires that go to the VFD. I setup some settings in the VFD as best as I could figure out but am not 100 percent sure of some of them. I used some tutorials I found on the web but none were specific to this type of motor.

The settings I changed are as follows:
general settings
PD003 60 hz main frequency
PD004 60 hz base frequency
PD005 60 hz max operating frequency
PD014 6 seconds acceleration time
PD015 6 seconds deceleration time
PD023 0 reverse forbidden

motor settings based on nameplate
PD141 220v ????, nameplate says 230v
PD142 12a
PD143 4 poles???, not listed on motor
PD141 3480 rpm

I am unsure about the number of poles. There is no "pole" rating on the nameplate, only 3 phase. I tried 2, 3 and 4 and the motor ran on all three of the settings. If this setting is wrong will the motor be damaged?
I set both voltage settings to 220v, the nameplate says 230. Any real world difference?
I believe that is all the settings. The saw runs, I have only turned it on and off, I have not cut anything yet.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Corrections?

edit: Based on the below quote the pole setting should be 2.

Forgive me mentioning, the straightforward way to tell is to look at nameplate speed and figure it form there. 60hz motor at just below 3600rpm is 2-pole, at jut below 1800rpm 4 pole, just below 1200rpm6 pole.

[Tom Trees]

Thanks again all for your recommendations. It seems a VFD wins. I purchased a Huanyang off ebay. 4k 5hp unit. Fingers crossed it works. Since I don't plan on cutting 6" hardwood made from steel I think I will be ok based on everything I have read. But there is nothing like real world experience. Time will tell.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/222271460477

This weekend I plan on running a 220v 30 amp receptacle too the front of the garage for power, I have a 100 amp sub panel in there. The VFD will be mounted on the left side of the saw cabinet. I will wire the motor direct to the VFD, install a on/off switch on the machine to utilize the VFD control circuits. The saw will then be plug and cord connected. I hope to never have any other 3 phase equipment in the future.


Give a holler if you need some things cleared up regarding 3 wire control i.e to have a start and a stop switch .
And BTW you will eat your words about your last sentence :confused: :o :) :cool: ;) :rolleyes:
HAVE FUN
Tom

[Dave Cav]

On a table saw (and all of my other WW'ing equipment) I prefer to have my stop command set to "coast", that is, no braking or controlled deceleration, so when you hit the stop button, power is cut to the motor. If I have a blade pinch or other problem, I want to hit the stop switch and have the motor completely de-energized, not trying to power down for six seconds (or whatever you have your deceleration parameter set for). It looks like on your VFD you would set control parameter PD026, Stopping Mode, to 1, Coast to stop. It's on page 32 of the on-line manual:

http://www.jinlantrade.com/ebay/invertermanual.pdf

[Brian Bres]

One last update. I finally got the start/stop button on the saw working properly. The info is out there but not easy to find andn the manual is not the best.
Page 37 of the manual for the VFD has the info.

The start/stop buttons are actually 2 different switches with a common terminal. The Start button is NO and the Stop button is NC. Both are momentary.

The common terminal gets connected to the DCM terminal.
The NO or Start terminal gets connected to the FOR terminal.
The NC or Stop terminal gets connected to the RST terminal.

Then the following parameters need to be set.
PD001 - 1 for external control
PD044 - 2 for forward rotation
PD046 - 4 for stop

Now the saw starts when I push the Start button and stops when I push the Stop button. Now I am happy.

It's the little things in life that make a real difference. LOL

These are the list of parameters I have set.

General settings
PD001 - 1 for external control
PD003 - 60 hz main frequency
PD004 - 60 hz base frequency
PD005 - 60 hz max operating frequency
PD014 - 6 seconds acceleration time
PD015 - 6 seconds deceleration time
PD023 - 0 reverse forbidden
PD044 - 2 for forward rotation
PD046 - 4 for stop

Motor settings based on nameplate
PD141 220v
PD142 12a
PD143 2 poles
PD141 3480 rpm


And the VFD does not utilize a neutral on the Line side. A 3 conductor plug and cord will work fine. I installed a 4 conductor before I knew better.

[Phillip Gregory]

That is a 2 pole motor. 2 pole motors run at something just under 3600 rpm, 3450 rpm is a typical value. A 4 pole motor runs at just under 1800 rpm, usually quoted as 1725. You can calculate the number of poles by taking the number of cycles per minute (Hz * 60) and dividing that by the RPM, and rounding a fuzz down to the nearest whole number gives the number of *pairs* of poles. Induction motors are asynchronous and have a bit of "slip" so they run just a touch below the synchronous 3600, 1800, 1200, 900 etc. rpm.

VFDs don't need a neutral but they need a ground. You need two hots and a ground coming in and three hots and a ground coming out of the VFD. Flexible cable counts the ground as a conductor, so 14/3 flex cable is two hots and a ground, while rigid nonmetallic cable ("Romex") does NOT count the ground as a conductor, so 14/2 rigid cable has two hots and a ground as well. A saw should have flex cable, so you need 12/3 coming into the VFD (two hots and a ground, good for 25 amps per hot) and 14/4 coming out (three hots and a ground, good for 15 amps per hot/phase.)