What size plane for a 7 yr old?

[Robert Hartmann]

I have a soon to be 7 yr old son that loves woodworking. To date it's mostly just drilling holes with a MF No 3 I restored for him and sawing with the Veritas Dovetail and Small Carcass saws I bought for him and his older brother. He's also done some work with my rasps and chisels (with close supervision). I bought a Stanley No 3 and put a Veritas chipbreaker and blade on it, but it seems too big. It could be I don't have a bench his size, but the No 3 seems too big (he's small). He uses my saw bench clamped to one of my benches for most of his work.

I'll be moving back to the states next summer, so I don't want to build a bench right now. Would I be wasting money on a No 1 or 2 since they would have to be new due to the vintage market (Lie Nielsen is my preferred, but a lot of money)? His soon to be 5 yr old sister also loves woodworking, so it would get some more use in the future. Should I just wait until next summer or find another option? I don't want him to lose interest.

I guess another option is let him use my block planes and/or specialty planes (plow plane, edge plane, etc.).

Opinions from those of you with young kids/grandkids would be great, but any are welcome.

thanks,
Rob

[Trevor Goodwin]

Hi Robert,

Block plane is a good idea. If you want new, maybe consider the Veritas low-angle along with the handles that they sell? Certainly not cheap, but it's good quality and something you can use yourself if they lose interest.

Also consider the Woodcraft Woodriver planes, they sell a #1 and #2 for ~$120. I doubt you will find a vintage #1 or #2 cheaper than that.

Some of those vintage wooden planes may also be suitable. You should be able to find a huge variety on auction site. ECE make a plane they nickname "Boy's Plane" (https://www.fine-tools.com/schlichthobel.html), it has a blade width of ~1.5".

Plenty of options!

[Frederick Skelly]

Robert, Trevor is right. I bought a #1 from Woodcraft for $125 when they first came out. It works fine. I dont know if they ship internationally, but suspect they do.

[Prashun Patel]

The veritas low angle block plane has an aux tote you can purchase. The low angle block will serve him for life.

[Trevor Goodwin]

Robert, Trevor is right. I bought a #1 from Woodcraft for $125 when they first came out. It works fine. I dont know if they ship internationally, but suspect they do.

My bad, forgot to look at Robert's locale! This may be Robert's closest source of "Woodriver" planes: http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Quangsheng_Planes.html but I can't confirm whether it's the cheapest.

[Frederick Skelly]

The veritas low angle block plane has an aux tote you can purchase. The low angle block will serve him for life.

I forgot about that aux tote. That's another good idea! I think I remember reading that with the aux yote, that block plane is about the size of a #2. Good catch Prashun!

[Nick Stokes]

The block plane is actually hard for my 6 year old to use. He can chamfer an edge, but can't plane a face with it. A #3 is way better for him.

But don't get a junk one. If you want him to use it, it better work great and easily...

[Mike Brady]

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee300/finefettle/IMG_0212_zps1ae034e3.jpg (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/finefettle/media/IMG_0212_zps1ae034e3.jpg.html)

[Patrick Chase]

I have a 6 y/o son who's similarly interested. We've tried the WR #1, the Veritas low-angle block plane with aux tote, and an L-N #2. Of those he's done the best with the #1. I think the biggest determining factor is blade width. The #1 is narrower than either of the others and therefore easier to push.

The WR #1 is also easier on Dad's nerves as it's not one of my everyday user planes like the other two, so I don't care as much when he inevitably mishandles it a bit. He has a unique talent for dulling plane blades...

[Eric Schmid]

My girls were a couple years older when they first handled a plane, but they went straight for the mid sized planes; 4,5,6. If the height of the work is appropriate for their size, they don't have much trouble getting their weight behind these planes. It's interesting to watch how naturally they manage the ergonomics with no instruction.

I do most of my work on shop built saw horses with beams clamped to the horses. Mine are torsion beams (lightweight, mobile, cheap to build). Might weight 150 lbs in total and still stable enough to plane. Shop made horses can be made to any height and the beams can be used on any size horses.

I would imagine a high friction surface on the floor would work well with Japanese planes; or any plane on the pull stroke. I've pushed a few western planes on the floor, but not much fun.

[Derek Cohen]

Veritas LA block plane + handle and knob (accessory).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Hartmann]

My bad, forgot to look at Robert's locale!

Trevor, thanks. Being in the military we use standard US postal, so no worries on shipping.

[Robert Hartmann]

All, thanks for the tip on the Veritas block with tote and knob. It comes out to $190, which seems a bit pricey for a block plane when I already have a LN adjustable mouth. Someone is selling a new LN No 1 for $180, but I'm not sure it would be usable for me where a No 2 may be at some point. A few options, but I guess to ensure he stays encouraged the Veritas may be the best bet. I guess I could always use a second at some point.

Just for a little more background. I'm military and move around, so I try to keep my tools to just what I need.

[steven c newman]

Since you are already over there...ECE makes some nice planes. You can pick them up over there and not have to worry about shipping and such.

[Patrick Chase]

Since you are already over there...ECE makes some nice planes. You can pick them up over there and not have to worry about shipping and such.

You're suggesting that for his own use right? The ECEs tend to have high center of effort and their totes/grips seem optimizd for large-ish hands, so I don't think they'd be workable for the 7 y/o.

As I've said before, the simple hammer-adjusted version of the ECE jointer is a good-quality plane at an unbeatable price.

[Glen Canaday]

There is the woodriver, true, but for #2 size there is also the Fulton 3708 for around $80. It is a Millers Falls #7 with a different lever cap. The bonus is that you'll be able to get your hands in a pistol grip on the tote when it's your turn to use it!

The Sargent version of the Fulton is harder to hold, but still comparatively inexpensive.

[Kevin Hampshire]

There are multiple versions of the WR #1 (including a bronze one) available in the U.K. I assume they're available on the continent.

Look for them under the off-shore manufacturer's name and not WR brand which is U.S. for Woodcraft.

BTW, I kind of thought of the #1 as not being a serious plane. They're actually kind of handy and I like mine better than my LN #2.

[Jerry Olexa]

You are fortunate that they both like WWing..That is a happy problem..I think i would stick temporarily with a block plane...Later graduate to a bigger, heavier plane...Good effort Dad.

[peter Joseph]

My 5yo son loves planing away with the WR #1. He planes the edge of some pine and hands the shavings off to my 3yo daughter who plays with them. 1yo twins are a little to young for the shop.

[Stewie Simpson]

I would most likely tell him to get out the workshop, its far too dangerous for some one so young. They have the attention span of a gnat most times. I would wait until he/she is around 12 yrs old. With parenthood comes responsibility.

Stewie;

[Sergey Petrov]

My son 6 and daughter 3 use the small Stanley bullnose planes to generate shavings galore:)

[john zulu]

A plane like Veritas or LN should be given to someone that can handle it well. It is a very expensive tool after all. My thoughts though.

[Pete Hotard]

I would most likely tell him to get out the workshop, its far too dangerous for some one so young. They have the attention span of a gnat most times. I would wait until he/she is around 12 yrs old. With parenthood comes responsibility.

Stewie;


A plane like Veritas or LN should be given to someone that can handle it well. It is a very expensive tool after all. My thoughts though.

Ya'll sound like super-fun dads.....nothing like belaboring someone for wanting to spend time with his kids because they "might get hurt" or "might cost you some money." The cost of a plane and time spent with children teaching them the correct and safe way to handle tools is a valuable life lesson, and much much cheaper than a video game console most kids their age are glued to these days.

I say let the kid work and treasure the time you have to spend with your kids!!!

And thank you for your service!!

[Patrick Chase]

I would most likely tell him to get out the workshop, its far too dangerous for some one so young. They have the attention span of a gnat most times. I would wait until he/she is around 12 yrs old. With parenthood comes responsibility.

Stewie;

Indeed, but that doesn't have to be a barrier to learning woodworking. I made my son a folding bench (mostly out of plywood) that we set up well away from my workshop. We only use a limited selection of tools and materials in a controlled environment.

[Patrick Chase]

On a related note that I forgot when I posted earlier: My 6 y/o does really well with spokeshaves, so that might be something to consider.

I had no idea that might be the case until I dragged him to an L-N event and he promptly worked his way through all of their flat and concave shaves. Convex ones are a little challenging because of the angular/wrist control required to get them to cut.

His favorite is the Veritas low-angle, mostly because it cuts very easily and has a large toe (for a low-angle shave) that make it relatively easy to find the cutting angle. He also likes my WoodJoy Master (also easy to cut, but harder to register). He does OK with my BD shaves, though he prefers the low-angle ones because they cut more easily (I only give him workpieces with cooperative grain).

On a non-plane related note, he also likes to use bit braces. I have the modern French-made ratcheting ones that a couple outlets sell, and he can manage a 3/4 augur with one of those. I don't let him use my "good" Jennings-pattern set though :-).

[Patrick Chase]

A plane like Veritas or LN should be given to someone that can handle it well. It is a very expensive tool after all. My thoughts though.

Indeed. We usually set my son's folding bench up in a carpeted play room, and I don't let him use the really good stuff. So far he's demonstrated a unique talent for chipping and dulling blades, but other than that he hasn't trashed anything.

[Pat Barry]

I have a soon to be 7 yr old son that loves woodworking. To date it's mostly just drilling holes with a MF No 3 I restored for him and sawing with the Veritas Dovetail and Small Carcass saws I bought for him and his older brother. He's also done some work with my rasps and chisels (with close supervision). I bought a Stanley No 3 and put a Veritas chipbreaker and blade on it, but it seems too big. It could be I don't have a bench his size, but the No 3 seems too big (he's small). He uses my saw bench clamped to one of my benches for most of his work.

I'll be moving back to the states next summer, so I don't want to build a bench right now. Would I be wasting money on a No 1 or 2 since they would have to be new due to the vintage market (Lie Nielsen is my preferred, but a lot of money)? His soon to be 5 yr old sister also loves woodworking, so it would get some more use in the future. Should I just wait until next summer or find another option? I don't want him to lose interest.

I guess another option is let him use my block planes and/or specialty planes (plow plane, edge plane, etc.).

Opinions from those of you with young kids/grandkids would be great, but any are welcome.

thanks,
Rob
If you give them a dull tool they will soon get frustrated and either sneak one of you nice tools into their efforts or get discouraged. We all know that a super sharp tool is better -- less effort, better cuts, etc. with lower effort required. I think this is asking for trouble however. I think they can to plenty of woodworking without the use of tools such as this and I would encourage you not to get them some super sharp instrument of any size. Its far too easy for them to hurt themselves, maybe seriously. Maybe when they are teenagers, or really prove to you they can do something, get them a block plane and nothing more.

[Prashun Patel]

I would most likely tell him to get out the workshop, its far too dangerous for some one so young. They have the attention span of a gnat most times. I would wait until he/she is around 12 yrs old. With parenthood comes responsibility.
Stewie;

My son is now 11 and started showing interest @ 5. I'm happy I allowed him into the shop. Mine has the attention span of a gnat - until he gets into the shop. There, he's riveted and focused. I'm not saying he understood or fully understands safety. But I'm teaching him and happy to take some controlled risk here because there's no way I'm stifling that kind of productive, natural interest. YMMV.

As for putting an expensive plane in the hands of a kid. Rubbish! It's so hard to make a 'crappy' plane work well; that's why most (I suspect) adults don't get over the hump of using hand tools. Put a good one in their hands young so they know what a good one feels like. Put some padding on the floor to protect against drops.

That being said, I don't let my son use my better saws... But planes? He's allowed to use anything he shows interest in.

For those other of you who have younger kids, my bit of advice: teach them to saw straight, by hand, young. It's so much easier at a young age before they learn bad habits.

[Jim Koepke]

I have to go along with the let them in young crowd. My son and my grandkids have shown interest. I have let them use tools in my shop under careful supervision.

No children or tools have been damaged yet.

My son is now in his 30s. My oldest grandson is 14 and likes to carve things when he and his brother and sister come to visit in the summer.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

If you give them a dull tool they will soon get frustrated and either sneak one of you nice tools into their efforts or get discouraged. We all know that a super sharp tool is better -- less effort, better cuts, etc. with lower effort required. I think this is asking for trouble however. I think they can to plenty of woodworking without the use of tools such as this and I would encourage you not to get them some super sharp instrument of any size. Its far too easy for them to hurt themselves, maybe seriously. Maybe when they are teenagers, or really prove to you they can do something, get them a block plane and nothing more.

It's a tricky balance for sure. Kids lack the strength to "force" a cut with a dull tool the way most of us can (even if it makes us grit our teeth), but at the same time sharp tools can be an accident waiting to happen.

I personally err on the side of "too sharp", and rely on safety practices and a restricted selection of tools to mitigate the resulting risk. I do so because I judged that my son was more likely to injure himself trying to force a cut with a dull tool than by mishandling a sharp one, provided reasonable practices are followed.

[Bill McNiel]

Ya'll sound like super-fun dads.....nothing like belaboring someone for wanting to spend time with his kids because they "might get hurt" or "might cost you some money." The cost of a plane and time spent with children teaching them the correct and safe way to handle tools is a valuable life lesson, and much much cheaper than a video game console most kids their age are glued to these days.

I say let the kid work and treasure the time you have to spend with your kids!!!


And thank you for your service!!

Thank you Pete for putting the proper perspective on this thread. I agree with you 100%.

BTW- I would do the Veritas with tote.

Regards and happy parenting - Bill

[Patrick Chase]

As for putting an expensive plane in the hands of a kid. Rubbish! It's so hard to make a 'crappy' plane work well; that's why most (I suspect) adults don't get over the hump of using hand tools. Put a good one in their hands young so they know what a good one feels like. Put some padding on the floor to protect against drops.

Your comment appears to be predicated upon a false dichotomy. You can get a plane that works very well pretty cheaply, so there's a huge and very workable middle ground between "crappy" and "here kid, take my LV/LN/Holtey and do your worst". Think if it as an exercise in the 80-20 rule.

Also padding the floor isn't sufficient. Lack of strength leads to lack of control, for example when ending a cut, and tools consequently get banged around a bit when kids use them.

[Prashun Patel]

"and tools consequently get banged around a bit when kids use them."

My kid has banged my tools around in what I bet is a quite average way. He's not the most dexterous kid. My planes have endured his knocking around just find. When I say planes, I'm talking about my LV small bevel up smoother and block plane. That's about all he can wield at this point.

There is no false dichotomy. If I take a cheap plane and put some blood, sweat and tears into it to get it working as well and reliably as an LN or Veritas, then it's as valuable as those "premium users" in my arsenal. Now, I don't own any Hotley's, and I agree I'm not giving the keys to that kind of plane to anyone. But the value of the rest is high not because of the nominal $$ I paid, but because of how well they work.

You may have had an easier time learning, but setting up and using planes has been extremely challenging (but ultimately rewarding) for me. I put in a lot of $$ and time to gain some level of appreciation and proficiency (I use that word loosely;)) So, if I can help my son up the curve and get him to "a-ha" as young as possible, I'm happy to do it, even if that means he dings my LN#4 in the process.

I don't let him sharpen yet, though...

[Patrick Chase]

"and tools consequently get banged around a bit when kids use them."

My kid has banged my tools around in what I bet is a quite average way. He's not the most dexterous kid. My planes have endured his knocking around just find. When I say planes, I'm talking about my LV small bevel up smoother and block plane. That's about all he can wield at this point.

There is no false dichotomy. If I take a cheap plane and put some blood, sweat and tears into it to get it working as well and reliably as an LN or Veritas, then it's as valuable as those "premium users" in my arsenal.
The difference is that a used but perfectly functional plane will be banged up to start with, so your kid's depredations won't do much of anything to its resale value. Not so for LN or Veritas.

Also if you truly value planes only based on their functionality then you probably shouldn't be messing with the new stuff at all in many cases (there are exceptions, for example the 62, 51, and 10-1/4). Even if your time is worth a lot of money you can pay somebody to recondition the old plane and still be ahead in the deal.



Now, I don't own any Hotley's, and I agree I'm not giving the keys to that kind of plane to anyone. But the value of the rest is high not because of the nominal $$ I paid, but because of how well they work.
I would argue that resale should be included in your notion of value, but I basically understand where you're coming from. I don't have any Holteys either, I just chose that as an outrageous example to illustrate my point.

I let my son use some of my less expensive Veritas stuff, though for the most part he gets to play with Quansheng or used (planes), Narex (chisels), the relatively cheap LV augers, impulse-hardened dispose-a-saws, etc.

I also don't allow sharpening yet.

[Simon MacGowen]

I would most likely tell him to get out the workshop, its far too dangerous for some one so young. They have the attention span of a gnat most times. I would wait until he/she is around 12 yrs old. With parenthood comes responsibility.

Stewie;

Every parent/woodworker can decide when or if they would allow their children -- at whatever age -- to be in the shop. My kids are grown-ups, but if they expressed interest in woodworking at 6 or 7, I would play with them, handling a tool or two just for fun. But, I wouldn't let them work in my shop with a tool or keep a dedicated tool.

While I understand many woodworkers would love to share their passion with their kids for bonding or whatever, my shop is full of power tools and I'd prefer to keep anyone that young from hanging around. No families -- woodworking or not -- are the same.

Simon

[Prashun Patel]

On one hand, we want our kids to be safe; on the other we lament that too few people make things with their hands anymore. My son followed me like the kid in Harry Chapin's "Cat's in the Cradle" when he was 5-6 and thank goodness I let him in the shop. But now, at the still-young age of 11, he has too many activities and other interests to make it down to the shop often. He gets down to the shop during his down time or weekends. I suspect had the seeds not been sown young, his roots wouldn't have ever been established.

But I agree, Simon, that every parent decides best for their family.

[Bill McNiel]

On one hand, we want our kids to be safe; on the other we lament that too few people make things with their hands anymore. My son followed me like the kid in Harry Chapin's "Cat's in the Cradle" when he was 5-6 and thank goodness I let him in the shop. But now, at the still-young age of 11, he has too many activities and other interests to make it down to the shop often. He gets down to the shop during his down time or weekends. I suspect had the seeds not been sown young, his roots wouldn't have ever been established.

But I agree, Simon, that every parent decides best for their family.

Growing up we had a "workroom" in our home with numerous hand tools. I was not only allowed to use the tools but encouraged to. I started building and selling skim boards when I was 9 or 10. I made my first carved tray in the 5th grade.

My son was 3 when I started working on the Barn renovation/rescue (our home, shop and studio space). By the time he turned 4 he would sit on the floor and spend hours nailing off the plywood sheathing with ring shank nails using my 16 oz finish hammer, kid had great eye/hand coordination (All State 3rd baseman with a full ride to college). He progressed into the shop and "finer" woodworking tools around 7 or 8. Handcut dovetails at 11. He now makes a good living in construction in Hawaii and has a shop of his own, the majority of his hand tools apparently have relocated to the nicer climate from my shop, with my blessing, . He has always loved working with his hands building "stuff" and I am very glad we did everything we could to support his interests.

His sister had no interest in tools but would draw on anything that didn't run away. She was welcome to use my drafting table and our art supplies. I am an Architect and her mom a fine artist. My daughter is now considered to be one of the top tattoo artists in the country as well as an accomplished painter.

I stand strongly behind the concept of 'support your children's interests and give them what guidance you can'.

[James W Glenn]

I'm going to throw out a suggestion for a 5 1/4 junior jack to go with the block plane or little smoother. Edge planing is fun. I think the Sears Handyman planes are a little lighter than the Stanleys.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm going to throw out a suggestion for a 5 1/4 junior jack to go with the block plane or little smoother. Edge planing is fun. I think the Sears Handyman planes are a little lighter than the Stanleys.

A lot depends on the specific kid, but I suspect that's going to be on the big side for a 7 y/o. The 5-1/4 is basically a lengthened #3, and uses the same 1-3/4" blade.

[Trevor Goodwin]

I think a #1 or #2 is the best option. A plain block plane is unsuitable in my opinion because there aren't any handles, they are usually gripped with one hand about the sides, which requires adult sized hands and grip strength. The Veritas low-angle block plane with the bolt on totes would be great, but it's the most expensive option.

[Patrick Chase]

I think a #1 or #2 is the best option. A plain block plane is unsuitable in my opinion because there aren't any handles, they are usually gripped with one hand about the sides, which requires adult sized hands and grip strength. The Veritas low-angle block plane with the bolt on totes would be great, but it's the most expensive option.

A Quangsheng (WR) #1 works well for my 6 y/o. He started with it when he was 5, and he still prefers it to both the larger bench planes and the low-angle block with the small tote.

I also have an L-N #2 that I use for local smoothing and small work, and while it's a much nicer plane (esp considering that the Quangsheng #1 has no lateral adjuster) he finds it a bit too big.

[Joe Kasier]

My 6yr old loves working in the shop with me. I gave him a spokeshave, some chisels, a saw, egg beater drill, and block plane.

He loves the block plane, but asks for something bigger. I took him to our local LN event and let him use some tools. He took to the #1 smoother quite well. I am keeping my eye out for and old one to fix up for him.

[Frederick Skelly]

My 6yr old loves working in the shop with me. I gave him a spokeshave, some chisels, a saw, egg beater drill, and block plane.

He loves the block plane, but asks for something bigger. I took him to our local LN event and let him use some tools. He took to the #1 smoother quite well. I am keeping my eye out for and old one to fix up for him.

Thats pretty neat Joe. I suspect you'll have a tough time finding even a beat up Stanley #1 for less than what a new #1 will cost you ($120 @ woodcraft unless you catch a sale). Would be a great stocking stuffer for Christmas!

[Alan Schwabacher]

I would usually agree with the idea that a nice older plane would be a good idea, as my experience has been that it's not hard to find a $20-$30 #3 or #4 that works well after an hour of tuning -- and I like doing it. However, as a plane for a 6 year old there's a good reason to consider a #3 sized Veritas, Lie-Nielsen, or if you want an old plane, perhaps a V&B or wooden coffin smoother. These are planes that, in contrast to an old Stanley, can be dropped onto a concrete floor and won't break in two. A scratch in the body and a nick in the blade are better than a demotion to parts.

A #3 sized plane is not much bigger than some of the other suggestions, but will remain useful for a lifetime. With regard to metal vs wooden planes: his should adjust the same way as yours.

If you decide on a #1 or #2 sized plane, a new one is likely cheaper.

[Joe Kasier]

I would usually agree with the idea that a nice older plane would be a good idea, as my experience has been that it's not hard to find a $20-$30 #3 or #4 that works well after an hour of tuning -- and I like doing it. However, as a plane for a 6 year old there's a good reason to consider a #3 sized Veritas, Lie-Nielsen, or if you want an old plane, perhaps a V&B or wooden coffin smoother. These are planes that, in contrast to an old Stanley, can be dropped onto a concrete floor and won't break in two. A scratch in the body and a nick in the blade are better than a demotion to parts.

A #3 sized plane is not much bigger than some of the other suggestions, but will remain useful for a lifetime. With regard to metal vs wooden planes: his should adjust the same way as yours.

If you decide on a #1 or #2 sized plane, a new one is likely cheaper.


I really don't care if it is used or new. I was just hoping to pick one up for under $100 :)

[Glen Canaday]

For under $100, the Fulton 3708 is probably the only game in town unless you stumble across a real bargain somewhere between here and ebay. They range from $50 to $120 or so, most of the time around $70-$80. If it has the U-shaped lateral lever, it is Sargent make and technically not a 3708 (it is a 407 in disguise), though it also should still not be expensive. The ones with the lateral lever folded half over are a Millers Falls #7 with a different name and lever cap and are the one I recommend. They are a #2 size. For a 7-yo, they will likely be like a 4 1/2 to an adult man. A little heavy-ish, but a very usable hunk of iron.

[Patrick Chase]

I really don't care if it is used or new. I was just hoping to pick one up for under $100 :)

I got my son's Quangsheng/WR #1 for exactly $100 on sale IIRC. It didn't need any significant remedial work, just some quick flattening of the blade back (though it probably would have worked fine as-is) and of course honing.

[allen long]

Honestly, I have seen pictures of No's 1 and 2s, but never seen either of them in person. Can someone please post pictures of a person holding each of the planes. I would really be interested in getting a feel for the size to hand ratio.

[Glen Canaday]

Honestly, I have seen pictures of No's 1 and 2s, but never seen either of them in person. Can someone please post pictures of a person holding each of the planes. I would really be interested in getting a feel for the size to hand ratio.

If no one else posts one of a #2 size plane, I can do it in a couple of days. But I do not own a #1 so someone else will have to chime in. They are truly dinky, though. They are the length of an apron plane but proportioned more like a #3 (to my eyes, anyway). Absolutely tiny!

I will post a pic of one next to a more common size, like a #4, so to show the difference better.

[Jim Koepke]

Here is a picture of an LN #1, same size less cost:

346771

This illustrates a comfortable way to hold it in use for an adult.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Here is a shot of my using a Stanley #2:

346772

Both of these are great for small work.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Here is a picture of an LN #1, same size less cost:

346771

This illustrates a comfortable way to hold it in use for an adult.

jtk

The other way adults use those is by putting the web of your hand where it would normally go (crook of the tote) but wrapping your fingers over the lever cap. Your middle and ring fingers will be positioned ~directly above the cutting edge that way which means that you can cut one-handed while retaining control of the pressure distribution, or grab the knob with your other hand for a more conventional grip.

Doing it that way leads to a lower perceived center of effort than the over-the-top grip you show, which may be preferable for some.

[allen long]

Many thanks for the pictures. I really appreciate it.

Seeing the size of the No. 1 and looking at the width of blade compared to the LN adjustable block plane or a stanley block plane standard angle, what are the advantages of the No 1 over a similarly angled block plane with a premium blade? The No 1 and 2 are both beauties, but is there an advantage? (not that that has ever kept me from buying a pretty shiny new tool)

[Patrick Chase]

Many thanks for the pictures. I really appreciate it.

Seeing the size of the No. 1 and looking at the width of blade compared to the LN adjustable block plane or a stanley block plane standard angle, what are the advantages of the No 1 over a similarly angled block plane with a premium blade? The No 1 and 2 are both beauties, but is there an advantage? (not that that has ever kept me from buying a pretty shiny new tool)

Two words: Cap iron.

Seriously, these planes are basically smoothers, so for an adult the main advantage over a block plane would be the presence of the cap iron and the resulting tearout benefits. I have and regularly use a #2 for smoothing small work, for basically that reason. I don't really use the #1 unless I'm just dinking around for some reason.

For a child (the topic of this thread) the #1 is easier to handle than a block plane IMO, even one with an accessory tote.

[allen long]

Ah! I understand now. Thank you!

[Glen Canaday]

See? All I had to do was finish the day out at work and go to my wife's birthday party and Jim slides in there and takes care of it ;)

[Jim Koepke]

See? All I had to do was finish the day out at work and go to my wife's birthday party and Jim slides in there and takes care of it ;)

LOL! You give me too much credit. Both of those were posted years ago. They just had to be hunted down.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Here is a picture of an LN #1, same size less cost:

346771

This illustrates a comfortable way to hold it in use for an adult.

jtk

Seriously, thats a pretty stupid looking tool for anyone to use.

[Nick Stokes]

But here's the deal. Other than just playing with the plane... there's no way my 6 year old would actually use the plane to flatten a board, or prepare a joint, or smooth a surface. It is just a toy; not essential to him building his racetrack, or weapon, or lizzard house, or whatever else he's building at the time...

He gets far more use and fun out of his box of cutoffs, a saw, a spokeshave, sandpaper, and tons and tons of glue. Anytime he wants to plane, it's just a few strokes for fun...

Actually most recently his favorite thing is to "sharpen" his plane iron... Good thing I use diamond plates.

[Jim Koepke]

Seriously, thats a pretty stupid looking tool for anyone to use.

It looks like all my other bench planes, only smaller. Are all my Stanley/Bailey "stupid looking?"

When my grandson was about 6 he did pretty well with it. I have also found some situations where it is the best tool for the job.

Sorry Pat, just because you do not like it doesn't make it "stupid looking."

jtk

[Pat Barry]

It looks like all my other bench planes, only smaller. Are all my Stanley/Bailey "stupid looking?"

When my grandson was about 6 he did pretty well with it. I have also found some situations where it is the best tool for the job.

Sorry Pat, just because you do not like it doesn't make it "stupid looking."

jtk
Relax Jim. If you don't find the image of your giant hand and that tiny little plane with the same style of tote designed for use on a much larger plane, but just scaled to fit the proportionate size of the #1 plane body, which by the way you can't possibly hold in the manner it seems intended to be used, ... if that's not stupid looking to you then you and I have a very different view of things. If the sole purpose of the thing you are holding is to be useful and ergonomic then I contend that it misses the mark by a large margin. Perhaps it was designed for infants - surely not a full grown human being, certainly not a useful tool as it is presented.

[Jim Koepke]

Relax Jim. If you don't find the image of your giant hand and that tiny little plane with the same style of tote designed for use on a much larger plane, but just scaled to fit the proportionate size of the #1 plane body, which by the way you can't possibly hold in the manner it seems intended to be used, ... if that's not stupid looking to you then you and I have a very different view of things. If the sole purpose of the thing you are holding is to be useful and ergonomic then I contend that it misses the mark by a large margin. Perhaps it was designed for infants - surely not a full grown human being, certainly not a useful tool as it is presented.

That picture was posted because someone wanted to see the scale of the #1. It was from an old post of mine with an explanation of how it can be used one handed. It also showed where it was used to a better advantage in an area of chip out and swirling grain than any of my other planes. An image of it being used two handed shows my hands without much of the plane being visible.

Patrick Chase offered another way to hold a small plane like a #1 which also works for a #2 or #3 for those of use with larger hands:


The other way adults use those is by putting the web of your hand where it would normally go (crook of the tote) but wrapping your fingers over the lever cap. Your middle and ring fingers will be positioned ~directly above the cutting edge that way which means that you can cut one-handed while retaining control of the pressure distribution, or grab the knob with your other hand for a more conventional grip.

Doing it that way leads to a lower perceived center of effort than the over-the-top grip you show, which may be preferable for some.

This is a similar grip as used with a coffin style smoother. Some of which are also in various sizes, even down to as small or smaller than a #1.

As Patrick mentioned in another post the #1 also offers the benefit of a chip breaker not present on a block plane of the same size. In many situations this is an advantage.

In the distant past a small, light weight plane like this would have been useful to travelers for minor tasks including making shavings to start a fire or even putting a point on a pencil. The dishonest traveling gambler may have used such a tool to shave a deck of cards. I have used mine to make a trick (tapered) deck of cards.

Maybe those of us with a less limited imagination possess the vision to see more creative ways to use an item you only see as silly.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

That picture was posted because someone wanted to see the scale of the #1. It was from an old post of mine with an explanation of how it can be used one handed. It also showed where it was used to a better advantage in an area of chip out and swirling grain than any of my other planes. An image of it being used two handed shows my hands without much of the plane being visible.

Patrick Chase offered another way to hold a small plane like a #1 which also works for a #2 or #3 for those of use with larger hands:



This is a similar grip as used with a coffin style smoother. Some of which are also in various sizes, even down to as small or smaller than a #1.

As Patrick mentioned in another post the #1 also offers the benefit of a chip breaker not present on a block plane of the same size. In many situations this is an advantage.

In the distant past a small, light weight plane like this would have been useful to travelers for minor tasks including making shavings to start a fire or even putting a point on a pencil. The dishonest traveling gambler may have used such a tool to shave a deck of cards. I have used mine to make a trick (tapered) deck of cards.

Maybe those of us with a less limited imagination possess the vision to see more creative ways to use an item you only see as silly.

jtk
No doubt being creative is a very necessary thing with respect to that little plane. Maybe someone could creatively design and fabricate a more useful tote for that thing so its isn't so silly looking to hold and use.

[bill howes]

But here's the deal. Other than just playing with the plane... there's no way my 6 year old would actually use the plane to flatten a board, or prepare a joint, or smooth a surface. It is just a toy; not essential to him building his racetrack, or weapon, or lizzard house, or whatever else he's building at the time...

He gets far more use and fun out of his box of cutoffs, a saw, a spokeshave, sandpaper, and tons and tons of glue. Anytime he wants to plane, it's just a few strokes for fun...

Actually most recently his favorite thing is to "sharpen" his plane iron... Good thing I use diamond plates.
I'm late to this thread, but I would agree.
A spokeshave is a great tool for teaching the concept of grain direction. That and a shavehorse is much friendlier site for a small one to work at. Standard workbench height just doesn't work, yet to make something stable enough to plane on seems foolish when they are growing at the rate that my daughter in law is buying new pants every six months.
Bill

[Frederick Skelly]

[QUOTE=Maybe someone could creatively design and fabricate a more useful tote for that thing so its isn't so silly looking to hold and use.[/QUOTE]

I have and regularly use a #1. Like Jim, I use it for small work. I like the tool and would not part with it. I have average sized hands and use both of them to guide the plane. I dont recall how exactly I grip it, but it works for me. I never even considered making a new tote, but now that you've given me the idea I may play around with it a bit. Thanks Pat.

[Patrick Chase]

I have and regularly use a #1. Like Jim, I use it for small work. I like the tool and would not part with it. I have average sized hands and use both of them to guide the plane. I dont recall how exactly I grip it, but it works for me. I never even considered making a new tote, but now that you've given me the idea I may play around with it a bit. Thanks Pat.

I'll chime in here - I don't find the #1 to be uncomfortable, awkward, or difficult to use. In order to add a conventionally sized tote with finger clearance around the front you'd have make it hang way off the back, and that would defeat one of the primary uses of the plane, namely getting into tight spots. That's also why I don't find accessory totes for block planes to be all that useful BTW.

I prefer the #2 for small work for subjective reasons, but by the same token I understand why others might subjectively prefer the #1 as you do. I think it's important to separate such preferences from our judgments about the "goodness" of a given tool, and I think failure to do so is where some of us may be going off the rails a bit in this discussion.

[Pat Barry]

I'll chime in here - I don't find the #1 to be uncomfortable, awkward, or difficult to use. In order to add a conventionally sized tote with finger clearance around the front you'd have make it hang way off the back, and that would defeat one of the primary uses of the plane, namely getting into tight spots. That's also why I don't find accessory totes for block planes to be all that useful BTW.

I prefer the #2 for small work for subjective reasons, but by the same token I understand why others might subjectively prefer the #1 as you do. I think it's important to separate such preferences from our judgments about the "goodness" of a given tool, and I think failure to do so is where some of us may be going off the rails a bit in this discussion.
Let's get a picture of you holding and using your little number 1. I'd like to see how you manage to make that tote comfortable in your hand.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm not sure when I'll start my son with tools but I'm certain that I started incredibly early. We had basic wood and metal shops in 7th grade and I remember I had started will tools many years prior to that.

[Stewie Simpson]

I'm with Pat on this one. A No.1 lacks credible ergonomics to be used by a grown adult. Even a No.2 is borderline with an extra inch in sole length.

I am not quite sure of Patrick's rationale in making this statement;
and that would defeat one of the primary uses of the plane, namely getting into tight spots.

It wasn't that long ago there was a serious discussion on the benefits of sound ergonomics within chisel handle design. And yet sound ergonomics needn't apply to a No.1 plane being used by an adult.

If you wanted to really spoil your 7yr, buy him/her a No.1 plane. Its weight and length is most likely a good choice, but so is the other recommendation of buying a cheap spokeshave..

[allen long]

I can definitely see how one could make a new tote to be more ergonomic (I wouldn't want to modify such a beautiful tote) Keep the inner curve to allow for adjusting the plane, but the top of the tote could be shaped more like the knob in the front. It would allow you to bear down on it a bit with a lot more comfort.

Dammit Janet! Now I want one to test such a modification

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

[Stewie Simpson]

Two words: Cap iron.

Is there a need for LV or LN to supply a steel soled block plane bedded at 38-40 degree's with a cap iron to control tear out, or is it simply the case with existing low bedded block planes, you just steepen the bevel angle as you would with bu bench planes to better control tear out. If you were so inclined there's likely scope for experimentation. 1% on all future sales will do me just fine Mr. Lee.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm with Pat on this one. A No.1 lacks credible ergonomics to be used by a grown adult. Even a No.2 is borderline with an extra inch in sole length.

Well, nobody said it was ergonomic friends. :D But I successfully use both my #1 and my #2 regularly. But, I'm sure not using them to not flatten large boards here.

The #1 does things like jointing the edge of a 6" long and 1/4" wide side of a box. LITTLE stuff, that is very short duration. And for that kind of work, I feel more comfortable with 2 hands on the tool. (Even though my LN 102 is exactly the same length and width as the #1. I can't really explain why.) Heck no, it's not a normal grip. But for me, it works just fine.

And I have no trouble at all using the #2 as a smoother for small areas. Again, not a whole entertainment center - I'm talking a square foot or so of area. Places where a shorter plane just feels more controllable or "better" to me.

To each his own with the understanding that YMMV. :D

Fred

[Prashun Patel]

To the No. 1 plane, I say, "Senator, you are no microJackplane Kennedy."

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,230,41182&p=75057 (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,230,41182&p=75057)

[steven c newman]

Has anyone here actually taken a plane or two, and have a firstgrader actually try them out? Of course, I have a 16 yr.old that has trouble making one of my planes work....

Have the kids( or Grandkids in my case) grab a plane or two, just too see what actually happens. WhenI was about that age, I started out with a "Handy Andy" tool set, and it had a Stanley #110 block plane in it.

You may be surprised at what the kids can use for tools, size wise.

[Derek Cohen]

Noticed this today:










http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Planes/05P8222s4.jpg

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Planes/05P8222s6.jpg






http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,230,41182&p=75057&WT.mc_id=2135_24&WT.tsrc=Email

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

beat u to the punch, Derek...

[Derek Cohen]

So you did, Prashun, so you did! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

Let's get a picture of you holding and using your little number 1. I'd like to see how you manage to make that tote comfortable in your hand.
Hey Patrick, had any time to take a picture of the cute little plane of yours in action? Curious to see how you manage it. Thanks

[Patrick Chase]

Hey Patrick, had any time to take a picture of the cute little plane of yours in action? Curious to see how you manage it. Thanks

Sure, this weeked. Gotta go work for the man and take care of kids during the week.

[Shawn Pixley]

I am going to be a bit of the contrarian here. I would start with a Bailey #3. It is cheap, common, and will work for a number of tasks. It might be on the larger size but I think that just like I used a finish hammer at age 5, a child will adapt. It need not be particularly proportionate to the child's body size immediately. Humans are very plastic in their ability to adapt. Especially children.

[steven c newman]

Perhaps a trip back in time? I started out with a Handy Andy Tool set way back when I was in the 1st grade. Maybe draw up a tool list from one of those sets, and try to put a tool set together from the list. maybe make a tool chest to house the tools in. Instead of "Handy Andy" on the outside of the box, use the 7 yr old's name. Make it THEIR tool set.

BTW: Mine was from about 1961.......

[Patrick Chase]

I am going to be a bit of the contrarian here. I would start with a Bailey #3. It is cheap, common, and will work for a number of tasks. It might be on the larger size but I think that just like I used a finish hammer at age 5, a child will adapt. It need not be particularly proportionate to the child's body size immediately. Humans are very plastic in their ability to adapt. Especially children.

That's exactly what I tried with my 6 y/o (back when he was 5). At the time the smallest bench planes I had were a #3 and a Veritas small bevel-up smoother, which is about the same size. They were too big for him - he could sort of make them work for thin shavings with a heavily cambered blade, but even then they were a bit of a handful. He particularly had control problems starting and ending the cut, as you might expect.

I also got a small accessory tote for my block plane, but in the end the #1 was by far the most usable option. The position of an accessory tote hanging off the back of a block plane is sort of goofy,and that seemed to make the plane hard for him to manage. I've subsequently acquired an L-N #2 for my own use (for small work like boxes and for localized "remedial smoothing" in larger pieces), but he's happy with the #1 so we haven't bothered trying the 2.

[Robert Hartmann]

I've been away for a little while and just checking back in. Way more comments than I anticipated. For those that think 6, and even 4 (my daughter), is too young, I used to believe that until my oldest went to three years of German kindergarten. They were using real saws and other tools at 3. I of course am very observant, but firmly believe we caudal kids too much. My daughter has been using my block plane on edges and really enjoys it. They both have been taking scraps and making things like planes and boats. They don't have much skill obviously, but by doing the sawing, "planing", drilling holes and gluing they feel they are woodworkers. I'm going to stick with this approach and hope they continue to enjoy it and progress.

After seeing all the comments I think I'm going to get a LN #2 for them (and me) to use. I have a solid Stanley #3 with Veritas blade and chipbreaker. I think they would lose interest in a #1 and believe a #2 would benefit us all for years to come. As for buying a good, sharp tool I think it's the best way to go. Back when I first started woodworking I tried using a cheap block plane and quickly gave up. It was years before I tried one again. As many have said, a good sharp tool is easier to use and has better results. I want them to enjoy the experience. Yes, it will be expensive, but hopefully pays off in the end. I've been restoring hand drills and selling them with the proceeds going to new tools and toys for my wife, so I have quite a bit of "good will" built up:)

I've also decided to make a platform around one corner of a second bench I have. I bought an old Nooitgedacht (Dutch) bench that has a face vise on all four corners. I use it for all my tool restoration and they also use it, so losing one side and a corner is not a big deal. It should help their planing.

Thanks again for all the comments.
Rob

[Patrick Chase]

That's exactly what I tried with my 6 y/o (back when he was 5). At the time the smallest bench planes I had were a #3 and a Veritas small bevel-up smoother, which is about the same size. They were too big for him - he could sort of make them work for thin shavings with a heavily cambered blade, but even then they were a bit of a handful. He particularly had control problems starting and ending the cut, as you might expect.

I also got a small accessory tote for my block plane, but in the end the #1 was by far the most usable option. The position of an accessory tote hanging off the back of a block plane is sort of goofy,and that seemed to make the plane hard for him to manage. I've subsequently acquired an L-N #2 for my own use (for small work like boxes and for localized "remedial smoothing" in larger pieces), but he's happy with the #1 so we haven't bothered trying the 2.

I had my son retry the #3 and the LV LA block plane with accessory tote+knob last night. The #3 was set up with the "minimally relieved corner" blade configuration that I use for smoothing small work. The block plane had a straight blade with slightly rounded corners. Some observations:

The block plane with tote is still a pretty funky tool. Total length from toe to tote is about 9", and the blade is about 1.75" back from the mouth. The resulting 5:1 ratio of total length to toe length is unusual, and it feels that way in use. The sole is only 6.5" long, so the tote is far enough off the back that it exerts some leverage on the heel of the sole, and small changes in tote downforce cause larger-than-normal differences in pressure distribution along the sole. It's fairly easy for me to adjust to, though my son still can't get it to start cleanly, probably because he has both less coordination than an adult, and less experience adapting to "tool feel" on the fly. I imagine that if he used it day in and day out he'd figure it out, but on the whole we both subjectively dislike the block+tote. YMMV.

The #3 is a different story. The cutting mechanics are basically identical to his #1, so no trouble there. He still has some trouble controlling the plane at start and end of cut, and has to skew the plane at the start to avoid "skipping". He typically doesn't remember that on his own, so it requires constant intervention on my part which is less fun for both of us. In the end he opined that the 3 was simply too hard to push and asked to switch back to his #1. I think he's still a year or two away from being ready for the 3.

We didn't try my #2, though I suspect that would be a workable solution at this point.

[Patrick Chase]

I've been away for a little while and just checking back in. Way more comments than I anticipated. For those that think 6, and even 4 (my daughter), is too young, I used to believe that until my oldest went to three years of German kindergarten. They were using real saws and other tools at 3. I of course am very observant, but firmly believe we caudal kids too much.

100% agreed. I think you meant "coddle" BTW. "caudal" is an adjective with a very different meaning (same in German and English though).


As for buying a good, sharp tool I think it's the best way to go. Back when I first started woodworking I tried using a cheap block plane and quickly gave up. It was years before I tried one again. As many have said, a good sharp tool is easier to use and has better results. I want them to enjoy the experience. Yes, it will be expensive, but hopefully pays off in the end. I've been restoring hand drills and selling them with the proceeds going to new tools and toys for my wife, so I have quite a bit of "good will" built up:)

I sense a bit of a false dichotomy here. You can pay a vast range of prices for planes that are (or can be tuned up to be) good sharp tools. At the low end are well-used but 100% functional planes from "less-collected" brands, while L-N is decidedly on the high end. I think that any of those are going to keep kids equally engaged. I didn't want to spend time restoring a used tool at the time I started my son off, so I went more or less in the middle of that range, with a new Wood River #1 ($100 or so on sale). He's already gotten ~1.5 years of use out of it and it looks like he'll get about that much more (he's still not ready for the 3), and then my daughter will probably get another few years, so I'm not worried about loss of interest.

[Jim Koepke]

I didn't want to spend time restoring a used tool at the time I started my son off, so I went more or less went in the middle of that range, with a new Wood River #1 ($100 or so on sale). He's already gotten ~1.5 years of use out of it and it looks like he'll get about that much more (he's still not ready for the 3), and then my daughter will probably get another few years, so I'm not worried about loss of interest.

Besides, getting a used Stanley/Bailey #1 would have cost a lot more without the time spent in restoration.

Fast forward 20 years and imagine showing your son the first plane he used. The look on his face will be well worth the money spent.

jtk

[Robert Hartmann]

100% agreed. I think you meant "coddle" BTW. "caudal" is an adjective with a very different meaning (same in German and English though).

I sense a bit of a false dichotomy here.

oops, yes, I meant coddle. The rationale for a LN #2 is a vintage one would cost more. I also believe I'll get some use out of it, so I'm opting for a LN.

[Robert Hartmann]

I thought you all might enjoy a pic of my daughter doing a little work with a hand drill and a nice 6" Pexto brace I restored. I realized I've been under-dressing for the workshop all this time. Notice the matching pink MF drill? Sorry for the sideways pic, I can't get it to load right for some reason.

346992

[Jim Koepke]

The rationale for a LN #2 is a vintage one would cost more. I also believe I'll get some use out of it, so I'm opting for a LN.

When I bought mine I was thinking the same thing. Then I got a good deal on one from the auction site we all know and love or loath.

The difference in price is somewhat narrow these days. The LN is a better made plane which is enough to rationalize spending the difference if one is not a Stanley/Bailey enthusiast.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

I thought you all might enjoy a pic of my daughter doing a little work with a hand drill and a nice 6" Pexto brace I restored. I realized I've been under-dressing for the workshop all this time. Notice the matching pink MF drill? Sorry for the sideways pic, I can't get it to load right for some reason.

346992

Priceless!!!!!!

[Pat Barry]

Sure, this weeked. Gotta go work for the man and take care of kids during the week.
Did you get a chance t snap that photo? What I see might tip the scales in my decision to buy or not to buy one of these little cuties. Might put it on the shelf above my computer monitor after giving it a test drive.

[Robert Hartmann]

To everyone that replied to my original post, thanks for the inputs. I thought I would circle back for anyone interested. I ended up buying a LN #2. I learned what one of the posts said, it was basically a toy for him to "play" with and he quickly lost interest. I assume from his perspective it wasn't really useful to make something he wanted to make. Many said to get a block plane. He used a block plane then and still does today, so hindsight for me says to just go with a block plane.

I had bought him and his younger sister the small dovetail and carcass saws from Veritas. They use them a lot to this day. I also restored a hand drill for each and I have a number of braces they also love to use. My now 10 yr old son is pretty capable with saws, chisels, drills and a variety of other tools. I've started to let him use my drill press and bandsaw with close supervision. I'm not comfortable with the table saw yet and probably won't for some time.

He just made a pretty nice display case for all his Cub Scout Adventure awards. Someone thought 7 was too young, but if I hadn't encouraged him he probably would have given up on it. His younger sister (now 8) is almost always with me in the shop. She doesn't do much more than sawing and drilling holes, but she loves it. And I love they want to spend time with me in the shop...even if a lot of my time is spent either watching to make sure they are safe or helping them.

[Aiden Pettengill]

# one, thanks for being a great Grandparent! My grandfather was the one who taught me and without him I probably wouldn't know 3/4 of the stuff about tools and wood working I know now. #2 KEEP HIM IN SCOUTS!!! Its an amazing program that teaches lifelong skills. This is coming from a person who got their Eagle at 14 yo. It has been probably the most influential thing on my life during my childhood.