Cyclone vs dust mask

[Maxim Kramarenko]

Hello!

I've read Bill Pentz site recenty, but don't understand one thing. He told, that we need fine dust collection, that chip collection is not enough, so we should always wear dust mask + fan.
OK, suppose I purchase some good cyclone and filter outside, does it change the situation ? It seems, that even with good cyclone, lathe, miter saw and hand (power) tools can create a lot of fine dust, difficult to catch with cyclone. This means, that even with good cyclone we need to wear dust mask all day.

But if dust mask still required, probably it worth to spend money on really good mask (like 3m versaflo) and use basic chip collection ? Wear comfort should be much better and basic ventilation/ceiling air filter should reduce persistent dust level in workshop.

[Ole Anderson]

Keep in mind that the author had some serious respiratory issues and needed to err on the safe side. Unless you have similar issues or are cleaning your filter or sanding without good collection, a dust mask is above and beyond for most folks. Those with higher concerns typically have an ambient filter as well as good collection at the tool.

[David Kumm]

The key is to size the system properly for the machines being used. A system undersized may still pick up the chips but not the envelope of fine dust around the machine. You also need to leave the collector on long enough to clear the air in the shop. An overhead clears air pretty slowly. A properly sized DC will do it much faster. Keep in mind that if venting outside, the replacement air needs to be clean too. Dave

[Maxim Kramarenko]

David, ok, suppose cheap undersized system doesn't pick fine dust. But why I should worry about it, if I wear a dust mask all day ? Let's fine dust fly, an overhead system will clean air in a few hours anyway.
It seems like both with cyclone and with basic chip collection system I should wear a dust mask all day, so why I should worry about the cyclone, cfm, filtering outside, etc ?

[David Kumm]

I'm just one who doesn't find a cartridge type mask very comfortable for long periods. Even my Trend isn't comfortable when the shield gets dusty and it always seems to be something I'm aware of. I don't need any more distraction as my attention span is short. Dave

[Jim Dwight]

I think Bill Pentz's level of protection is more than I need and possibly more than you need. If you search "Dylos" in this forum you will find test results of others in their shops under various conditions. What I learned is that our shops are not necessarily dustier than outside and if we use dust collection may not be dustier than inside our houses. If you don't need a dust mask outside on windy days you shouldn't need one in your shop either. I think we should collect as much as possible at the source, either direct the exhaust outside or use a really fine - like HEPA - filter. What's left should be something a lot of us can deal with. Opening the doors to get some air movement will help too. If you think you need more, my next step would be a box fan with a fine furnace filter on it, not a mask.

[Maxim Kramarenko]

Aha, so ultimate goal is to work in the shop without mask ?

Regading Dylos - I've tried the such testing myself with this arduino dust sensor:
http://www.howmuchsnow.com/arduino/airquality/
and this cheap particle counter:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Handheld-Portable-Particle-Counter-PM2-5-Monitor-Air-Quality-Environment-Detecto-/331887160564?hash=item4d46042cf4:g:1NgAAOSwFe5XywW a
I've also don't found any extreme numbers, often shop is much cleaner, than house :)

[Ben Rivel]

First of all, why NOT do all things and everything you can to collect all the dust AND protect yourself from it. Second I like a clean shop. Having a good cyclone and dust collection system drastically helps that. And lastly, dust from outside or in your house hopefully doesnt contain any particles that can be and/or are unsafe to breathe like some of those found in some of the wood products we cut. Take MDF for example. Personally I use a nice dust collection system, with an air cleaner and a respirator when I work. Just like I wear double ear protection when I shoot. Nothing wrong with taking extra precautions when its to do with my well being. I cant see any reason to do anything less.

[Van Huskey]

I'm just one who doesn't find a cartridge type mask very comfortable for long periods. Even my Trend isn't comfortable when the shield gets dusty and it always seems to be something I'm aware of. I don't need any more distraction as my attention span is short. Dave

I have to agree about wearing a mask. I will suffer through it while spraying finish or other times when dealing with organic solvents but if I had to do it all the time when cutting or sanding I am pretty sure I would shift my time to other hobbies.

[Brian W Smith]

" I will suffer through it while spraying finish or other times when dealing with organic solvents but if I had to do it all the time when cutting or sanding I am pretty sure I would shift my time to other hobbies."

Yes,and we found that learning/practicing sheet metal "trades" became a bargain.From rolling our own fittings to building ground up cyclones including impellors.For instance,can make a std 6x6x4 20g wye in any angle or offset in under 15 minutes.We've even created new styles of QD systems.Of all the "offshoot" or extension's to our wood/cabinet biz over the last 40+ years,by far..sheet metal was the quickest payback.It is a high labor (skillsets),with small to medium $$ for equipment.The latter of which,interestingly,has one of the highest resale values.Our vintage Pexto "stuff" is worth more than when it was purchased.As new,and as we restored each pce.

There's enough public domain info and technical books written in the late 1800's and early 1900's to easily cover pretty much any dust equipment needed for OSHA level safety in the WW'n biz.Written also before a time when industry equipment becomes the norm....translated;lots of hand tools.Also,without condescension,written in easy to understand basic math and geometry.Which should be a foundation block in any WWers learning curve anyway.I know it's practice (layout/theory) bumped my knowledge base...and having grown up in the biz,that's sayin a lot.

[Wayne Lomman]

Maxim, there is a widely accepted hierarchy of control methods for dealing with safety issues generally (google it). Using personal protective equipment is the last resort when trying to control a hazard. Installing duct collection is an engineering solution that will give a much better result. Dust masks are a pain to wear and don't always fit - I have a large nose apparently because absolutely no brand of mask works for me. They give you head aches from the pressure on your face, they restrict vision and the weight of a decent one give you neck strain.

Don't under-rate the long term effects of exposure to dusty atmospheres. Everyone worries about their airways and with good reason, but did you know that your eyes get abraded? No, I didn't either until I went to the eye doctor for a check up and was advised to choose a less dusty occupation. Just what you want to hear when you are too old to get picked up in another occupation and too young to retire.

So just install an efficient dust collector and leave the mask for the odd occasion when you need something extra. Cheers

[glenn bradley]

I wear a mask any time that I am doing a task that generates dust that cannot be adequately captured. A lot of freehand routing falls under this category but, not all. Probably the biggest offender in my shop is hand sanding.

If you are using a cyclone and venting outside, the cyclone primarily serves as a separator so that you can capture the bulk of your spoil. This is great for all things that the cyclone does a good job of collecting. As you mention, miter saws create a collection problem. They are of minimal benefit in my wood working and mine lives out in the shed and only comes out to play if I am trimming out a room or something like that.

Lathes are another problem tool for collection if you are not a green turner. Folks who turn green wood do most of their spoil collection with a broom (or a rake :D). Hand tools that are not equipped with dust collection require a mask. Hand tools that have dust collection that cannot be used due to the task being performed require a mask. Again, in my shop, rasp work and hand sanding are the ones that sneak up on me. I will be going at it and then catch a cross-room view of the air and go get the mask I should've been wearing the whole time :).

If your mask is not comfortable for long periods, get one that is. Even if the mask is expensive it is cheap compared to a lifetime of respiratory issues. DAMHIKT. This is my current favorite (https://www.amazon.com/Miller-Electric-2240377-Half-Respirator/dp/B00V7UUNU4) since they stopped making my ultimate favorite (thanks to 3M after buying AO :mad:). Anyway, for me the Miller LPR-100 goes on and off easily, is lightweight, doesn't block peripheral vision and can be work for extended periods.

[Maxim Kramarenko]

Thanks for directions, I found this review of respirator field testing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_respirator_testing#cite_note-.D0.A1.D1.82.D0.B0.D0.BD.D0.B4.D0.B0.D1.80.D1.82-.D0.A1.D0.A8.D0.90-OSHA-7

It seems like respirators (even PAPR) is not reliable enough, often respirator reduce dust concentration just a few times, so using other ways to remove dust should be always useful.

[Allan Speers]

I have a "pretty good" shop DC system, but I still wear a simple surgical-type mask whenever I actually remember to do so. I like the type that is rectangular in shape with loops on the sides for each ear. These are extremely comfortable, not a pain at all. I even wear them when raking leaves or mowing the lawn.

Such a mask isn't a good solution all by itself, far from it, but it's really all you need for MILD airborne sawdust, so why NOT wear one?

[Alan Lightstone]

As I've said before, I'm fond of my lungs, and would like to keep them relatively intact.

I have a 5HP Oneida Cyclone, and a Jet air cleaner, and a Dylos meter. Plus have a wide variety of Festool tools with their Festool HEPA vac. I religiously wear either a 3M P100 particle mask or chemical mask (as the task requires) until the Dylos reads normal ambient particle count. And yes, the air scrubs cleaner than the house when the Jet is on.

I don't find the mask terribly annoying (though I work all day in the OR wearing a mask, so I'm pretty used to wearing some form of mask). Frankly, I find ear muffs far more annoying.

I see plenty of patients every week with bad respiratory conditions. It's not fun for them. It's lifelong suffering and disability. See that a few times, and the mask/air cleaner/good dust collector starts sounding like a great game plan.

My $0.02

[mark mcfarlane]

As I've said before, I'm fond of my lungs, and would like to keep them relatively intact.

I have a 5HP Oneida Cyclone, and a Jet air cleaner, and a Dylos meter. ...

Hi Alan, I'm curious why you selected the Jet over other vendor's air cleaners, and which Jet you bought, the 1000CFM or the 1700CFM version.

[Maxim Kramarenko]

Allan, as I know, such kind of masks used to protect patient, not doctor (cough, sneezing). When I've tried it, holes near nose seems too large.

[mreza Salav]

I have a good cyclone system, have a good air cleaner running but sometimes still need to wear a good mask (e.g. when sanding at the lathe).
So having a good DC doesn't mean you never need a dust mask.
However, having to wear a dust mask all the time (if you choose not to have a good system) is really annoying, plus you'll have a mess and quality of your work will degrade
(e.g. your sander, planer, shaper, etc might not work properly).

[mike mcilroy]

I was having issues with my breathing in my shop after about 15 or 20 minutes in the shop. I got a cyclone set up and have not had any breathing issues since. I don't wear a mask even with sanding jobs. YMMV

[Allan Speers]

Allan, as I know, such kind of masks used to protect patient, not doctor (cough, sneezing). When I've tried it, holes near nose seems too large.


I dunno. They work for me. I have mild silicosis and so and VERY sensitive to anything in the air. The ones I use have a metal clip that bends over the nose, so.....

Also, I only use these when there is extremely mild dust escaping. I also have regular half-masks, and even a 3M forced-air helmet for serious situations & also painting, pesticides, etc.

[Van Huskey]

Hi Alan, I'm curious why you selected the Jet over other vendor's air cleaners, and which Jet you bought, the 1000CFM or the 1700CFM version.

Likely because they have become the internet standard recommendation after they won most if not all the magazine comparisons that did objective particle testing (of the hobby level units).

I went a different route in my last shop and may go that way this time. I bought 4 of the Honeywell 50250 air cleaners for just over what the Jet 1000 runs. Why? They are true HEPA units and when combined have much more filter area than the Jet and move similar amounts of air. I put one on each wall and had them on a timer circuit (like used for heat lamps in a bathroom). While I gave up remote control they are something I turned on and left on then set to run for a couple of hours when I left the shop. I think I paid $98 each for mine and they are $118 on Amazon currently, I didn't search but last time I found some that were black instead of beige from another etailer cheaper than Amazon.

[Alan Lightstone]

I tried posting this earlier. Strangely it didn't post.

I have the 1000 CFM unit. Seems to work just fine as indicated by my Dylos meter. It leaves the air cleaner than ambient.

Van may be right as to why I chose the Jet. Who knows? I probably did read a review and went for it

And don't get me started regarding OR attire. The nonsense that goes on now with no scientific basis whatsoever will make my brain explode.

[mark mcfarlane]

Likely because they have become the internet standard recommendation after they won most if not all the magazine comparisons that did objective particle testing (of the hobby level units).

I went a different route in my last shop and may go that way this time. I bought 4 of the Honeywell 50250 air cleaners for just over what the Jet 1000 runs. Why? They are true HEPA units and when combined have much more filter area than the Jet and move similar amounts of air. I put one on each wall and had them on a timer circuit (like used for heat lamps in a bathroom). While I gave up remote control they are something I turned on and left on then set to run for a couple of hours when I left the shop. I think I paid $98 each for mine and they are $118 on Amazon currently, I didn't search but last time I found some that were black instead of beige from another etailer cheaper than Amazon.

Thanks Alan and Van. I use a similar Honeywell (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000050AQ5/ref=pd_sim_201_3?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000050AQ5&pd_rd_r=GHCRM900SQB12PNFZ037&pd_rd_w=Ls2gm&pd_rd_wg=x9BPL&psc=1&refRID=GHCRM900SQB12PNFZ037) in the bedroom (half the filter area), as much for white noise as cleaning. 5 years and going strong, with many prefilter cleanings and changes. One benefit of distributed air cleaners is you could station them in different work areas, e.g. right next to where you sand to suck away the fines, rather than in a ceiling unit which might be 20' away...

FWIW, the FWW review I read indicated the available units were very similar, with the Powermatic having perhaps a better remote control and more difficult filter changes, and noisier at high speed, although some Amazon reviews say its quiet enough.

A few more tidbits: the Honeywell 50250 runs up to 250 CFM, the Powermatic 1200 CFM, The Jet 1044 CFM. The Jet seems to have a line-of-sight infrared control , the Powermatic uses radio frequencies which would be more convenient in my 30' long shop,....

[Van Huskey]

Thanks Alan and Van. I use a similar Honeywell (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000050AQ5/ref=pd_sim_201_3?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000050AQ5&pd_rd_r=GHCRM900SQB12PNFZ037&pd_rd_w=Ls2gm&pd_rd_wg=x9BPL&psc=1&refRID=GHCRM900SQB12PNFZ037) in the bedroom (half the filter area), as much for white noise as cleaning. 5 years and going strong, with many prefilter cleanings and changes. One benefit of distributed air cleaners is you could station them in different work areas, e.g. right next to where you sand to suck away the fines, rather than in a ceiling unit which might be 20' away...

FWIW, the FWW review I read indicated the available units were very similar, with the Powermatic having perhaps a better remote control and more difficult filter changes, and noisier at high speed, although some Amazon reviews say its quiet enough.

A few more tidbits: the Honeywell 50250 runs up to 250 CFM, the Powermatic 1200 CFM, The Jet 1044 CFM. The Jet seems to have a line-of-sight infrared control , the Powermatic uses radio frequencies which would be more convenient in my 30' long shop,....



Funny enough we have one in the bedroom and like you it is mainly for the white noise.

While I never tested the efficacy against a Jet or other ambient air cleaner given the similar CFM (using 4), the distribution around the shop, and true HEPA filtration I was pretty sure it was a better mousetrap though 4 of them running full tilt are not quiet but neither are the off the shelf ambient filters like the Jet. I have had a couple of ideas for the new shop which I may or may not use. 1. I have been thinking about putting one of the Honeywells on a cart with drawers for my abrasives then wheel it near where I am sanding to help get the dust early, not 100% or likely even 30% but it should help but it isn't like my Mirka and Festool sanders toss a LOT of dust. 2. If I can find a cheap HVAC squirrel cage fan I may build an enclosure in the attic and run duct work to various points in the ceiling. I would use a standard furnace filter for the pre-filter then exhuast back into the shop through a large Wynn Environmental HEPA filter. I got the idea when Stumpy Nubs showed adding one of the filters to a Jet air cleaner. In the end I will most likely go with the Honeywell filters as they are cheap and they are plug and play.

BTW the new ones STINK for the first couple of days when they are run, many of the negative reviews on Amazon are for this reason. Some swear it never goes away and the first 36 hours I was REALLY concerned they were accurate (they REALLY stink) but after the second day of running I couldn't smell anything at all and it wasn't just getting used to the smell since I would only be in the shop a couple of hours at a time and my nose would be "fresh" upon going into the shop.

PS I think the review that started the bandwagon for the JEt was FWW Jul/Aug 2010 which indeed found most very similar in actual air cleaning speed the price and some other factors awarded it the best and best value of the test. I think the key for the "internet" was it was second quickest cleaning air and was the cheapest in the test, plus I think even then Wynn had aftermarket "better" cheaper filters available for it.

[Fred Belknap]

I don't like dust, makes me cough. Installed a exhaust fan right behind the head stock on lath. I have another stand fan that I can position where I want. The exhaust fan is 4800cfm and it sucks a lot of dust out of the shop. The biggest probleml is replacement air when it is cold outside. In the winter I leave windows open a little to conserve the heat, still need to wear warm clothes. I can deal with that to an extent. I also have a TrendPro powered facemask that works pretty good but gets uncomfortable after a few hours. I also have DC that is exhausted outside. The shop gets used daily and it is a lot cleaner than it use to be but there seems to be a light coat of dust on things. Here is a pic of fan that I installed this summer, it replaced a smaller fan that didn't quite do the job.346413