General update and (skew) chisel question

[Chance Raser]

So some (most) will probably remember me from a few months ago asking about tool aquisition and limited initial budget purchases from jumping in the vortex (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?246339-jumping-in-the-vortex).

Well ive finally produced something. See next post (for some reason i am unable to upload pics via my computer, but it works from my phone.) I know i have a long way to go, but damnit i made something!

Sharpening does not seem difficult, i ended up with a 10" grinder, 8" 180 CBN, 8" white Norton AO. I built a roborest-like tool rest, a vari grind, and the holders. Sharpening is going well. I think i am getting really good results, just need to learn proper technique.

I have been watching numerous videos on how to actually use the tools i got PSI Benjamins best (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KI8CTS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) . So the small bowl i made was made almost completely with the 5/8" scraper. i need to work on the angles/grinds of the gouges before i am comfortable with them, the out of the box angles have too much catch for my skill/comfort right now.

I have read alot about negative rake scrapers, and i want one. I have also read about the value in a skew. At my early stage of learning i am almost convinced i should reshape my 1" skew chisel into a 1" negative rake scraper. From what i understand, skews don't have as much of a purpose with bowl turning when compared to spindle turning. I am interested in bowl turning. I understand you can get an amazingly smooth finish using a skew on the outside of a bowl, but won't a NR scaper be able to achieve the same thing if used correctly?

Do i need a 1" skew for anything right now? i think the NR scraper is the way to go.

Thanks

[Chance Raser]

The bowl is green mesquite. 4.5" wide, a little over 3" tall. I put it in a paper bag with some shavings, gonna let it dry and hopefully it doesn't crack. I know it looks rough, but 1st try!

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Comments welcome. Can't hurt my feelings.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Chance,

I love my skew..I have several..for spindle turning. While there are a few people who might use the skew on the outside edge of a bowl, I wouldn't recommend it.

My personal taste for a negative rake scraper ( I have a couple) is a really thick one. Thicker means more mass and less bounce resulting in a smoother finish. I wouldn't regrind a skew into a scraper.

[Roger Chandler]

Using a skew for bowl turning is risky, and not generally recommended.....it is a spindle tool. One has to be pretty skilled and very proficient at tool control to even consider a skew for use on a bowl....even outside scraping. Not to mention the learning of a bowl gouge is so much easier than a skew, and on a bowl, way, way easier.
It amazes me that anyone would bypass a bowl gouge for its designed use to use a skew in a way it was not designed to be used.
Not intending to be flippant in any way with my comment, but why not just learn, or have someone teach you the proper use of a bowl gouge, and advance big time in your stated desire to turn bowls? Food for thought. :)

I agree with Ken, that most skews won't have the mass of a good scraper.

[Mark Greenbaum]

That's a nice beginning for a first bowl. What's the wall thickness? If you're going to re-turn it after it dries, leave a 10% wall thickness to allow for warpage and leaves enough to re-shape to round. By all means, get a decent bowl gouge. I started with a WoodRiver (Woodcraft's store brand) 5/8" and added the fingernail grind later. Then after a class at J.C. Campbell, I felt I needed a smaller so I got the same in a 3/8". Good steel that takes a nice edge. I also have a couple carbide tools (Harrison Simple, and EZ). They help get material out of the inside quickly. The Harrison is a cutter, the EZ Wood is a scraper. Tonight, I finished roughing my first hollow form on the G0766 using the EZ Wood tool to carve out the inside. Mainly because I don't have a large hollowing tool yet.

Keep up the good work, and post often.

[Chance Raser]

It amazes me that anyone would bypass a bowl gouge for its designed use to use a skew in a way it was not designed to be used.
Not intending to be flippant in any way with my comment, but why not just learn, or have someone teach you the proper use of a bowl gouge, and advance big time in your stated desire to turn bowls? Food for thought. :)

I agree with Ken, that most skews won't have the mass of a good scraper.

Roger, thanks for the comments. I need to clear this up tho, my skill is in its infancy and I have zero intention of using a skew on any of my near future bowl turning. This is precisely the reason for asking if I need a skew and if I would be better off grinding my skew into a scraper, as I've also (again in my infancy) had luck and found comfort using a scraper.

Also, I fully intend on figuring out the gouges, but as stated, the out of the box grindings weren't working for me and I was (in great excitement) having a good experience with a scraper.

Maybe I'll leave it as a skew and keep an eye out for a thick scraper. Thanks for the advice.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Chance do not use a skew to turn a bowl, at least not for the next couple of years ;), by then you should know what can happen with using that tool on a bowl :eek:.

Now of course the bowl you show here is made from endgrain, and that is not where a bowl gouge works well on, a scraper is not a bad choice for that.

Endgrain likes to split even more then side-grain wood, but keep your fingers crossed it might well stay in one piece, but for a first piece/bowl you did pretty good, it looks much better than my first one that’s for sure.

For your next one in side grain, try your hand with a bowl gouge on that, and do show us 346107

[Chance Raser]

Chance do not use a skew to turn a bowl, at least not for the next couple of years ;), by then you should know what can happen with using that tool on a bowl :eek:.

Now of course the bowl you show here is made from endgrain, and that is not where a bowl gouge works well on, a scraper is not a bad choice for that.

Endgrain likes to split even more then side-grain wood, but keep your fingers crossed it might well stay in one piece, but for a first piece/bowl you did pretty good, it looks much better than my first one that’s for sure.

For your next one in side grain, try your hand with a bowl gouge on that, and do show us <img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=346107"/>

Thanks! I was/am pretty excited about what I was able to produce first time! I'll stay far away from the skew for my bowls.

I'll go side grain next with bowl gouges, but for now fingers crossed it stays together. If not, I can always make another 😀.

[Chance Raser]

That's a nice beginning for a first bowl. What's the wall thickness? If you're going to re-turn it after it dries, leave a 10% wall thickness to allow for warpage and leaves enough to re-shape to round....

Keep up the good work, and post often.

It varies, starts at about 3/8", narrowed to 1/4" and then at the bottom back to 3/8ish. I was trying to get a consistent thickness, but I want really trying if you know what I mean. More of playing around with the tool.

I'll try and reneged the 10% wall thickness rule of thumb. Thanks.

[John K Jordan]

...Do i need a 1" skew for anything right now? i think the NR scraper is the way to go.

Thanks

You can get rid of the skew now, unless you are interested in learning the tool control that will let you turn anything. Bowls are so easy, especially with green wood (and it's a lot of fun!), that many people get started with bowls and do little else the rest of their turning lives. There is nothing wrong with that - this is a hobby after all!

When I started woodturning EVERYONE told me to stay away from the evil skew. But when I read the books I found that the experts were using the skew. (I learned most of my woodturning from books.) My attitude was if they can do it, I can too. Through stubborn determination the skew became one of my favorite tools. I think I keep 6 or 8 on my tool wall an arm's length from the lathe. Some are ground differently but some are duplicates (so I can grab a fresh one instead of stoping to sharpen.)

As others mentioned, the use of the skew in face work (bowls, platters, etc) is limited or even dangerous, as in don't do it! (Except perhaps as a scraper) Same thing with a roughing gouge. However, the skew is invaluable for work between centers.

Many of the better turners all seem to say the same thing: if you want to excel, learn spindle turning first. Read Keith Rowley's foundations book where he doesn't hold back words about this, or Mike Darlow's intro book where he states simply "Spindle turning is the best form of turning to learn first.". Jimmy Clewes, while going from lathe to lathe helping others in a day class on lidded bowls stopped just long enough to tell me "oh, you're a spindle turner, you won't have any problem" and went on to the next guy. Richard Raffan said basically the same thing at one of his demos - learning spindle turning will teach you fine tool control quickly so you can turn anything. Frank Penta told me this too, and I believe it was him who said in the old trade schools face work was not allowed until center work was mastered. You decide.

The skew is the simplest and most basic tool in the kit. When I teach new turners I START with the skew. I mount a rounded 2x2 about 12" long on the lathe, hand the beginner a skew, explain the edge, bevel, and tool rest, then turn the lathe BY HAND until they get the feel for the bevel and how the edge makes a shaving, then turn the lathe on at a slow speed and let them practice planing cuts. Then I demonstrate "the woodturner's dance". A student usually gets pretty good at planing with a skew in about 15-20 minutes. Then we move to the roughing gouge and other tools.

I love spindle turning but don't get me wrong, I love turning bowls and platters too. What I like most is the variety - it is handy to be proficient enough to be comfortable tackling ANY type of turning on a whim. If you might be interested in that, I recommend keeping the skew and learning spindle turning. Mike Darlow's book Fundamentals of Woodturning has some exercises guaranteed to "turn" you into an expert quickly.

One thing about learning with a skew: if the included angle is ground small (say 20-25 deg) the skew cuts better but is harder to learn - a larger angle is much more forgiving. The skew I hand to a beginner is probably ground to about 40-45 deg - I'll have to check.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

Well, if you are going to be turning bowls, you will need a gouge or three or four, probably a scraper or two, and a negative rake scraper is really handy as well. Two of my NRS's are from old skew chisels. They work just fine. Since they are for fine finish cuts where you just barely touch the surface, you don't need much mass. I think all of mine are 1/4 inch. Heavier scrapers are excellent for heavy bowl roughing. With the smaller size of that bowl, only a small scraper is needed. I haven't found that a scraper over 1 inch wide and 3/8 inch thick is necessary, and they are my go to tool for roughing out bowls. Best advice I can give you is to find the local club and get some hands on instruction. Lots of good videos up on You Tube, but you can't beat hands on. I have a bunch of bowl turning clips up if you type in robo hippy.

robo hippy

[Bob Mezzatesta]

When I was interested in trying a NRS I bought a Benjamin's best scraper from Penn State for $20. It allowed me to experiment with different grind angles and to learn the proper way to use it. For the price you can grind to your hearts content without crying. BTW I'm still using that scraper...works just fine. Practice, practice, practice.

[Chance Raser]

JKJ, thanks for the thoughts. You're responses and posts are always long and thought provoking. I love them. I was trying to think of spindle projects I would like, and as of right now the only thing I can come up with are new handles for my current tools. Good practice and something usable. So that's what I'm gonna do.

Robo, I've already watched most every video you have on YouTube I believe. They are great, super helpful for learning. Thanks.

I was signed up for a bowl turning class at rockler, but my in-laws decided to come to town and crush that plan. I will get back over there and see their new class schedule.

Bob, I am thinking a $20 scraper would suite my needs perfectly right now.

[Ryan Mooney]

JKJ, thanks for the thoughts. You're responses and posts are always long and thought provoking. I love them. I was trying to think of spindle projects I would like, and as of right now the only thing I can come up with are new handles for my current tools. Good practice and something usable. So that's what I'm gonna do.

If you have any gardener friends a mess of dibbles for planting bulbs is a nice project. They're simple, useful, and have just enough opportunity for details to make them fun/good practice. I generally try to get a "finished" surface off of the skew here but sometimes need to dip into the sandpaper a little.

Here's some I did earlier this year (the lines are burned inch marks).

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Some bottle stoppers would make nice xmas gifts.

So do tops (the wind a string around and spin kind).

Eccentric tree ornaments are nice gifts around now and good skew practice: http://www.davidreedsmith.com/articles/eccentrictrees/eccentrictrees.htm

If you have wool spinner friends there are a lot of projects you can do :cool: Here are some key words: nostepinne, orifice hook

[Chance Raser]

Those are some great ideas Ryan. I'll look into them, thanks.

So I got to turn again tonight. Same stuff, green mesquite. I went side grain and larger this time. I am beyond happy with the results. There are things I would definitely do differently next time, like the entire concept of the bottom. I wanted to try my Chuck in expansion mode, I regret that decision.

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I really used two tools, my trusty 5/8" scraper and I started to really get a feel for the 1/2" gouge.

The bowl turned out to be 7 3/4" dia x 3" tall.

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I sanded it, learned a lot about sanding, namely how long it takes! From 80 thru the grits to 600. Should I have sanded it or should I have let it dry first? With all the videos I've watched I can't remember if it was OK to sand it or not. Regardless, I couldn't be happier for a second outing. I remember in some of Robo's videos him wrapping a green bowl with packers plastic, i had some, so...

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What do you think? Was the plastic a waste? Was sanding it a waste? How long should I wait to finish it? I have some clear satin on my shelf, use it or???

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[John RStegall]

All the mesquite I have turned came from the area around San Antonio and it is one of the most stable woods I have ever turned. It normally doesn't move much after turning even when turned green. That is a nice bowl by the way and I can see why you are well pleased with it.
Don't give up on turning in the expansion mode. It can work well. Maybe turn your first bowl a 2nd time and apply finish and see how much it moves.

[John K Jordan]

If you have wool spinner friends there are a lot of projects you can do Here are some key words: nostepinne...

YOWSA, you jist learned me sompthin!! I have never heard of these - I must run immediately to my fiber mentor and learn more! (Or maybe make a surprise Christmas gift)

I see it is somtime called nostespinde, nostespinder plural. Forget the farm chores, I have to go make one.

Two clubs I frequent make ornaments and sell them for chairities - last year those from one club brought over $4000 for the Children's Hospital. Great spindle projects and they don't have to be fancy to sell.

Besides the tops wound with string and spun on a frame there are throw tops and finger tops.

A few other spindle things besides ornaments, dibbles, stoppers, and tops:

handled and French style rolling pins
honey dippers
candlestick holders/stands
presentation oversize golf tees for golfer fanatics
presentation mini baseball bats
paper towel dispensers
pens, letter openers, seam rippers, etc.
tool handles, of course
gavels
miniatures for your favorite little girl's dollhouse
ice cream scoops
mallets
tire thumpers for your favorite bus driver/trucker
shawl and hair pins/sticks
drop spindles, supported spindles
repair parts for spinning wheels
hand mirrors (both spindle and face turning)
Pepper grinders
end grain boxes (including needle cases)
whiteboard pointers for your favorite professor
conductor batons for your favorite band director
magic wands

Often small things can be made quickly. As Ryan mentioned, they can make great gifts and can be sold to pay for more tools! I don't usually make things to sell but I have accidentally made a few thousand $$ making magic wands and another thing.

BTW, some other advantages to turning things smaller than big bowls is wood goes a lot further, you can afford to use expensive exotics like cocobolo and ebony, much less storage space is needed in the shop, a project can be completed the same day instead of waiting month, smaller wood can be completely dry and stable, a top coming off the lathe won't break your face, and sanding little things avoids clouds of lung-choking dust! (Ok, off my soap box now!)

Some of these are very easy for beginners and some are more challenging. Some are easier if done one way than another. If anyone reading would like some tips, just start a new thread and ask! Lots of readers here have zillions of photos too. (Ooo, maybe an idea for a new thread - photos of ideas for small turnings - just in time for the Christmas rush!)

For example, somewhere I have instructions written up about how to turn thin spindles such as the magic wands. Just ask.

JKJ

[Michael Mills]

This is a pretty good assortment of videos on youtube. Projects are classified with videos under each one, such as 40 videos on turning mushrooms.
http://www.woodturningonline.com/Turning/Turning_videos.php
The 'new video" section is updated monthly so the 48 new videos only cover 9/23 -9/30.
Other main topics cover tools, techniques, etc.
Under techniques is Negative Rake Scrapers which links 8 videos.

[Reed Gray]

The stretch film is not necessary on all woods, but it does protect the rim. Most of my once turned bowls are dry and done warping in about a week to 10 days. I have turned very little mesquite, but it is supposed to be one of the easiest to dry. I usually wait till they are dry before sanding, and don't go past 400, but that depends more on the piece. For daily use bowls, I only go to 400, for 'art' pieces, I will go 600 plus. Good efforts, have fun and keep your tools sharp.

robo hippy

[Ryan Mooney]

Try two now with fewer attachments...

Chance,

That's a good round for your second bowl! Just keep on making them and it'll keep getting easier, don't stress any "I don't like this bit" to much just take note and make another one.

The plastic wrap works pretty well - poke a hole in the top of the wrap if you haven't. Basically if the bowl dries from the inside first it puts the wood into "compression" and usually minimizes cracking so you generally want to minimize moisture loss from the outside and possibly restrict but not eliminate moisture movement from the inside (don't stop it all or you'll get mold).

Your bottom hole is a lot deeper/larger than it needs to be for that size of bowl. You can also flip the bowl and turn off most of it if you want, this is a great overview:
http://www.ptwoodturners.org/Tips%20and%20Handouts/Methods%20and%20Jigs%20for%20Reverse%20Turning%20B owls.pdf

If you can sand it green, go for it.. a lot of wood doesn't handle that very well but mesquite is hard enough to probably work pretty well. I'd probably have stopped at 220 or so and then finish sanded once it was finished drying.

I like small projects because it allows me to use little pieces of wood to nice to throw out but to small for a bowl (like that pretty piece of curly maple or a sliver of lilac or...). I also do quite a few turned buttons but they're a bit more fussy (and not really spindle turning).

John,

Awesome list :)

If you want to do a surprise set of Noste's here's what I've learned.

Here is a rather horrid cell phone picture of a couple I have left (these were focusing on the practical aspects the ones with fancy/nice handles all got claimed :rolleyes:) but they illustrate a few useful points - I put them on an 8 1/2 x 11" piece of paper for scale.

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They are made in basically two parts, the handle that you hold it by on the left, and the shaft that the yarn is wound around on the right. The shaft MUST be a perfectly even taper. These are pretty close to right, but could use a slightly shallower taper even and be fine. To steep of a taper causes the wound ball to be uneven.

The grooves on the tip and by the handle serve an important purpose of providing a "binding" point to wrap the free end of the yarn around to get it started. They should be deep and steep so a wrap and a half of yarn locks itself in place. The groove at the tip is cut after the taper in the shaft is made so its an even curve, I'll often make the tip a little bead or something reducing it just a wee smidge more than the shaft so the ball of yarn slides off nicely.

The handle shape doesn't matter to much as long as its comfortable and allows you to do the wrist rotating action to wind the yarn without getting in the way. I've found a ball end nice and sits well in the palm of your hand allowing a fairly natural movement (more like the larger bottom one, but even more so - again these are survivors of the yarn hound predation...).

For those not into fiber arts wondering what the heck we're talking about here, here's a short video showing the use (imho the shaft on that is WAY to big like 2x to big unless you were doing some clunky art yarn which isn't what the noste's are really best at..):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPMmopJHzq4

[John K Jordan]

Ryan, the picture didn't show but I found some pictures on the Webbed Wide World. Could you measure the length and both diameters of the taper of one as a starting point?

I have a plastic ball winder from Amazon that makes winding easy but there is a magical elegance to one hand-made from wood.

JKJ

[Ryan Mooney]

The longer one is .78" down to .57" measured just on the inside of the grooves over 5.5" (that's measuring from groove-groove). The button on the end is 0.51" in diameter.

The shorter one is .78' down to .54" measured just on the inside of the grooves over 5.4" (again groove-groove). The button on the end is 0.52" in diameter.

So pretty much all of the difference is in the handle (and the extra couple of grooves). The primary user has a strong stated preference for the longer one :)

The grooves are between 0.1" and 0.14" deep (better closer to 0.14") and right about 0.14" wide (top of valley to top of valley) with minimal meat between them. Basically just a VV shape.

Try two (three) at the picture. Again apologies for the quality I don't have a picture booth and the light here is horrible this time of year.

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These aren't really good for doing a LOT of yarn as they're a wee bit slower, but are really useful for winding off singles for sampling or classes or other small projects. Its kind of cool that with one of these and a drop spindle you can basically make all the yarn you'd need :D

They are also really useful for knitting from a center pull ball as you can slide the yarn down the noste a smidge to loosen it enough then start pulling from the center and it keeps the ball from collapsing. As yarn is removed you just slide the ball back up the noste a smidge to tighten it up.

Here's a decent shot of plying using one.. (I don't think you need to actually tie on if you get the grooves nice and deep/sharp the wool will bind in them):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lAIBev0wRo

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I ahve been making snowmen figures. from little 4 inch tall ones to some 18 inch 7 in diameter chunks of log. Also, small Christmas trees, candle holders, spin tops etc. I am just back into turning after many many years away. Back in the day, I made a lot of bowls for sale. And never used a skew for anything but making decorative lines. Now that I am doing much more spindle turning, I am getting accustomed to the skew for the first time. At first I had some really nasty catches, gouges and scratches from not properly holding the skew. Then I got a little better at figuring it out. I confidently did some peeling cuts over the past week and found it can really smooth some round shapes using the skew as a light scraper. So far everything I have turned has been from scrounged wood. Maple branches and walnut logs I cut last winter, saw mill cut offs from a saw mill where they make components for skids. I get red oak, pin oak, elm, mulberry and sometimes cherry pieces 4x5 inches and sometimes up to 24 inches long The stuff is still in various stages of green. I made a top from red oak this afternoon, and used a skew to do most of the work on that tough wood. The skew is fast becoming a favorite tool. Although for some reason, I like the old carbon steel skew the best. Maybe because it is easier to sharpen with just a stone.

[John K Jordan]

Mr Mooney,

Thanks for the dimensions, perfect. The picture is fine - tells the story. The lack of contrast and sharpness almost look like the lens is smudged, scattering light onto the sensor.

Long time ago I built a very cheap photo cube that I use now for all my turnings and other small things. I used PVC pipe, some fittings (not even glued) and some thin cloth held on by safety pins. A piece of grey matte board, flat against the bottom and curved up in the back makes a good seamless background. Two CFL photo bulbs from Amazon provide most of the light. I use a camera on a tripod. The whole thing comes apart for storage. The most bulky thing is the matte board.

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JKJ

[Ryan Mooney]

Perry,

Once you get into planing cuts you won't go back :D They leave such a nice surface and really aren't that tricky to do either.

The main thing I found was figuring out that its all levers and the fulcrum is the tool rest so you need to figure out where you're cutting edge is in relation to that and that tells you how much leverage is being applied and whether or not you can control that.. all else follows. Its a surprisingly simple concept but the devil is as they say in the details :)

John,

I don't think its the lense as outside pictures were coming through fine (its just a cheap camera phone.. which is still pretty amazing). The light was really really bad with lots of back glare... It could be though because the focal length is a lot shorter.. so yeah.. bad pictures with mediocre equipment I can do. heh. Glad it was good enough to get the job done. The pure white background wasn't helping but I couldn't fine a ruler and wanted something for scale.

A light booth is on the list :D If I ever intended to sell anything it would very quickly move up the list... but currently its kind of on the "yeah sure someday" side :cool: