Grizzly machines now made in China

[Greg Woloshyn]

I'm looking into purchasing a new jointer and planer for my shop and would like to go with the Grizzly machines, but now both machines I'm looking at are made in China, where they used to be made in Taiwan. Also, on the specifications sheet they are not produced in an ISO factory. Should I still consider Grizzly? I want to buy once and own nice machines to last a long time and not have the need to upgrade. Considering the G0490XW jointer and the G0453ZW, 8" jointer and 15" planer both with spiral cutterheads. Why is Grizzly now manufacturing in China? Are they starting to take more advantage of profits over quality? The customer service person I talked to says they are trying to meet the high demands for these machines.

[Jared Sankovich]

They have been manufactured in china long before recently...

But so are just about every other wood working brand
http://www.geetech.com.tw/index.php/en/strategic-partenrship-e

[Rich Riddle]

Well if China bothers you, there are many machines made in European countries like Austria, Germany, and Italy. They tend to be a bit more expensive.

[Matt Day]

I think the answer is no, you shouldn't be concerned. If the machines weren't as good they'd get more returns and QC issues which would cost grizzly money.

Hasn't China caught up in terms of manufacturing quality a number of years ago?

Maybe Shiraz will chime in.

[Greg Woloshyn]

They have been manufactured in china long before recently...

The previous G0490X was made in Taiwan until they discontinued it, now they are back to producing them only switching factories to one in mainland China.

[Brad Shipton]

Many companies have learned the hard way they cannot protect their intellectual property unless they setup their own shop with their own employees in China. I have no idea if Grizzly did so, but once a company has taken that step they will use whatever QC policies they have developed from home base. If they are on the cheapest bid gets the job, QC can become a problem. Based on the number of times I have seen Grizzly recommended I suspect they pay attention to QC. I myself prefer machines from EU. Something about DIN numbers or other standards makes me happy.

[Van Huskey]

Well if China bothers you, there are many machines made in European countries like Austria, Germany, and Italy. They tend to be a bit more expensive.

Don't forget 'Merica! Though in general the ones still made in America are not priced in a way to lean someone that is looking at Grizzly.

No one can possibly know the short term or long term reliability/durability of the machines that have switched to new factories the only thing one can do is buy based on their confidence in a particular company.

[Frederick Skelly]

Grizzly protecting their intellectual property. Now that's funny.

Maybe Im just dense, but I dont follow you?

[Cary Falk]

I wouldn't worry about the ISO900X certification. I work at a place that has the latest ISO certification. It basically says you have a documented procedure that you follow if your products are out of spec and you follow that product. Two companies can have the same ISO certification but vastly different tolerances. The one that has the tighter tolerances will usually have the better product.

[Jeff Duncan]

Maybe Im just dense, but I dont follow you?


Grizzly machines are knock-offs, (copies), of machines originally designed in other countries.....so they can't have "intellectual property" on something they "borrowed" and was not theirs to begin with;)

As for the switch from Taiwan to China.....no real difference, Taiwan is part of China, (though they certainly don't like it). The key point is Grizzly is a company that makes machines as inexpensively as possible to capture a share of the market. They're goal has never been on making the best quality tool, it's been making affordable tools. So they're not as the OP says "starting to take more advantage of profits over quality", that's the foundation the company was built upon! This is not to bash or disparage them either, just my honest assessment of what they are and what they do. There's obviously a place for them in the market and many people are happy with what they provide.

If I had to hazard a guess, (freely admit I have no real knowledge on this part), I'd guess Taiwan labor has risen enough to warrant bringing production back to the mainland.

good luck,
JeffD

[Andrew Hughes]

Didn't Taiwan get nailed by a Typhoon not too long ago.

Maybe the factories are kaput?

Aj

[Wayne Lomman]

Much bitter experience with Chinese quality control with cast steel products. The global client our company manufactured for changed to getting all castings from China as they were cheap. Then the failures started. We raised the standards and the quality dropped further. It got so bad the end clients have refused to accept Chinese product. We are all going to pay one day for the cheap products. It has killed local manufacturing. Cheers

[Robin Frierson]

I set up a new shop the summer and bought all grizzly tools with the exception of the cyclone. I bought the same Grizz planer you're looking at, 15 inch with spiral head and a 12 inch joiner with spiral cutter head. So far I've had no problems. Those two machines were made in China. I also bought a table saw and bandsaw and they were made in Taiwan. I've been very happy with these machines. The thing I like about grizzly is if there is a problem they will take care of it. Their customer service is very good.

[Charlton Wang]

Are you sure about this? Seven years ago when I bought the G0490x it was already made in China.

[Erik Loza]

Much bitter experience with Chinese quality control with cast steel products. The global client our company manufactured for changed to getting all castings from China as they were cheap. Then the failures started. We raised the standards and the quality dropped further. It got so bad the end clients have refused to accept Chinese product. We are all going to pay one day for the cheap products. It has killed local manufacturing. Cheers

1.) It is hard to buy a ww'ing machine (or most products, in fact) that are NOT made in China.

2.) As Rich pointed out, if that's a problem for you, I can tell you what machine to buy that is 100% made in Italy for any of your woodworking needs. Of course, it's going to cost a lot more, so you will have a decision to make.

3.) What if I told you that the biggest industrial manufacturer of professional ww'ing machinery in the world had entire production lines in China and that as a guy with almost 15 years in the industry, even I have trouble telling what is and isn't "made in China" these days. But, there's a difference between a Chinese contractor saw that is made in a sweatshop and a CNC machine that is built in China but designed, overseen, and QA'ed by an Italian or other European. Again, what type of machine are we talking about and more importantly, how much are you willing to spend to make your point?

Erik

[mark mcfarlane]

40 years ago everyone made fun of 'Made in Japan'. Then Toyota and Honda almost killed the American car industry with their much higher quality. I still won't buy an American made car. I've had so many problems over the decades and my Hondas typically just take oil and tires for the first 200,000 miles. I just sold a 26 year old Landcruiser that was running almost as good as the day it was purchased. Had to repair the AC, redo all the fluids, and replace some rubber that deteriorated from being parked in the sun all day, that's about it. Maybe I had a brake job done at 140,000 miles, I can't remember.

China has the capability to manufacture to the highest standards. No one complains that iPhones are made in China, or many other high end electronics products. All it takes is due diligence to monitor the process, the right contract controls,... You can make crap or first rate fantastic in China, its up to the company outsourcing the manufacturing.

All indications on this forum are that Grizzly stands behind what they sell. Obviously their $500 bandsaw won't work the same as a $3,000 Italian saw, but it will likely be as good or better than another $500 saw. They seem sell products that are a very good value for the money, with occasional lemons that the company will work to fix.

Grizzly seems to understand customer loyalty and the sometimes flakey Internet culture. The European and American machine companies seem mostly clueless by comparison.

[David Kumm]

When manufacturing is moved to another country it generally starts with the low end stuff and over time works up. US to Brazil, to Taiwan, to China for woodworking. Japan to Taiwan to Korea to China for metal working. Over time the quality and price move up within the country. I'd argue the real issue is that we as consumers are becoming so far removed from how things really work that we can no longer be a judge of quality. Without consumers demanding higher quality and knowing what to look and ask for, we get better paint jobs. Dave

[Shiraz Balolia]

As we would expect from the Internet, there are a lot of opinions, many good, and some, well...............rubbish!

Let's put some things to rest:

1) The G0490 series of parallelogram jointers was never made in Taiwan. We have carried that unit for almost 10 years and it was always made in China, under our supervision.

2) Over 70% of our machines are made in Taiwan and the production will not change. We have long term relationships with factories in Taiwan and I know all the owners personally, some of whom were small companies and are now public companies! Those relationships are precious for getting things done as well as for loyalty.

3) We have had an office in China for over 16 years with quality control inspectors as well as engineers that are on our payroll. One of them is a German (yes, originally from Germany) whom I have known since before I started Grizzly 33 years ago. He speaks Mandarin as well as about 8 other languages. We also send our engineers to oversee production from our USA headquarters several times a year. All that costs money, but it is imperative that we try to get it right the first time. This is not an easy business to be in, but we make it look easy with the various processes that we have developed and put in place through experience.

4) With any factory, be it China, Taiwan, or even USA, quality control during production is the key to success. If there are problems with a machine, it costs us money to deal with that problem, even if it is just a phone call from the customer. Therefore, we try to make sure that issues are minimal when the product is shipped to customers. We cannot catch 100% of the issues and cannot control the issue if a trucker decides to play the Samsonite Gorilla with a product (referring to an old commercial where a Gorilla throws around a Samsonite suitcase to show how well it stands up), but as everyone knows, we stand behind everything we sell and that is why it is critical to have good oversight during production. There isn't a shipment that leaves without one or more of our QC engineers checking it during and at the end of production.

5) As far as the comment about knock-offs. Guess who designed jointers to have indexing carbide insert spiral cutter-heads that are now the norm in the industry? Also we have the largest choice of machines under one brand in the World! We have come out with features never offered before, but many times considered normal because they have been copied by others. I guess that is why we are the leaders in woodworking machinery in this country.

Finally, we sell more jointers than perhaps all other competitors combined. There is a reason for this besides price.

[Robert Engel]

As previously stated so long as the company stays on top of QC and keeps their own managers on site the product quality will remain.
But if they let the Chinese have their way they will cut every corner they can and use the cheapest steel they can.

This has been the pattern with them. Just look at the crap Harbor Freight sells if you need proof.

I wish is was made in USA but of course if it was made in USA. I vividly recall the made in USA Crapsman contractor saws that was all we could afford.
Made in USA? Look at the cost of Northfield! (and just who is buying those machines, the government?)

Like it or not the reality is economic, regulatory and tax climate in this country has forced them out and nothing is going to change as long as we have an anti-business mentality amongst our political leaders..

[Joe Spear]

If you buy a Honda in this country, it has most likely been assembled in this country. About 70% of Honda parts are manufactured in the U.S. and Canada. About 15% come from Japan. There are similar stats for most other "non-U.S." brands. "American" cars have many parts from other countries. Manufacturing has been so internationalized that it is difficult to pin down exactly what is "foreign" and what is "domestic." In my shop I have had Chinese-manufactured items that have served quite well and some that were pure garbage.

I have bought "American" cars for 45 years. The one I have now is an "American" brand assembled in Canada. I keep a car for 8 to 10 years. The last few I have had are far better than the ones I had decades ago. They also cost a lot more in proportion to average incomes. That is probably true of most car brands, "American" and "foreign."

A friend of mine bought a new Toyota Corolla station wagon in 1971. In the summer of '72 we drove to Mexico on 4 cylinders. We returned two weeks later on 2 cylinders, with an emergency brake job done with Peugeot brake pads ground to fit because Mexico had no Toyota dealers at that time. That was before Toyota understood American driving distances, styles, and speeds. But the company learned quickly and met the challenge to make much better automobiles for our market. I believe "American" manufacturers have done the same quality improvement over the years.

When we judge tools, cars, and whatever else we buy, the manufacturing location should not be the only criterion. We can judge by physical quality, and sociological, political, or emotional reasons. However, we should understand our motivations and not write off any country's products wholesale without understanding what is moving us and seriously examining the facts.

[Paul Charkiewicz]

As we would expect from the Internet, there are a lot of opinions, many good, and some, well...............rubbish!

Let's put some things to rest:

1) The G0490 series of parallelogram jointers was never made in Taiwan. We have carried that unit for almost 10 years and it was always made in China, under our supervision.

2) Over 70% of our machines are made in Taiwan and the production will not change. We have long term relationships with factories in Taiwan and I know all the owners personally, some of whom were small companies and are now public companies! Those relationships are precious for getting things done as well as for loyalty.

3) We have had an office in China for over 16 years with quality control inspectors as well as engineers that are on our payroll. One of them is a German (yes, originally from Germany) whom I have known since before I started Grizzly 33 years ago. He speaks Mandarin as well as about 8 other languages. We also send our engineers to oversee production from our USA headquarters several times a year. All that costs money, but it is imperative that we try to get it right the first time. This is not an easy business to be in, but we make it look easy with the various processes that we have developed and put in place through experience.

4) With any factory, be it China, Taiwan, or even USA, quality control during production is the key to success. If there are problems with a machine, it costs us money to deal with that problem, even if it is just a phone call from the customer. Therefore, we try to make sure that issues are minimal when the product is shipped to customers. We cannot catch 100% of the issues and cannot control the issue if a trucker decides to play the Samsonite Gorilla with a product (referring to an old commercial where a Gorilla throws around a Samsonite suitcase to show how well it stands up), but as everyone knows, we stand behind everything we sell and that is why it is critical to have good oversight during production. There isn't a shipment that leaves without one or more of our QC engineers checking it during and at the end of production.

5) As far as the comment about knock-offs. Guess who designed jointers to have indexing carbide insert spiral cutter-heads that are now the norm in the industry? Also we have the largest choice of machines under one brand in the World! We have come out with features never offered before, but many times considered normal because they have been copied by others. I guess that is why we are the leaders in woodworking machinery in this country.

Finally, we sell more jointers than perhaps all other competitors combined. There is a reason for this besides price.

My intent isn't to interrupt this discussion, but I would like to add that customer service plays an important part in a brands reputation and, in part, reliability. My recent experience with Grizzly customer service is a good example. Here is the response I sent just today to Grizzly Freight Customer Service:
"Jessica and the rest of the Grizzly staff, I applaud you on your customer service and your response time! In a day where customer service gets neglected more and more, it is refreshing to see this type of recognition via email and over the phone. My questions and concerns have not only been answered but done with sincerity and with a level of respect and professionalism unmatched in any industry. I have emailed and spoken to a handful of Grizzly representatives so far and each one has been friendly and curious.

As a result of this first order with Grizzly, I look forward to working with you for many more years."

This, of course, is just my opinion and doesn't reflect directly on the quality of the machines. BUT, if they dedicate so much of their resources to customer service, I would be surprised if their attention to manufacturing did see the same focus.

Thanks,
Paul

[Michael Koons]

"But, there's a difference between a Chinese contractor saw that is made in a sweatshop and a CNC machine that is built in China but designed, overseen, and QA'ed by an Italian or other European. Again, what type of machine are we talking about and more importantly, how much are you willing to spend to make your point? "

Erik - I'm really interested in this last point you made and would be interested in your and this community's opinion. I'm going through a decision making process right now for a very high end, European sliding table saw. One of the vendors produces one of their high end saws in China and I'm really struggling with it. I have to admit, I don't like the idea of buying a German/Austrian/Italian saw knowing it was made in China. By the reactions I've seen on this board, I'm coming to the conclusion that my concerns are silly. But it's a bias I'm having a hard time shaking. I don't have this issue with value tools that cost less than $5k.

It's the "how much you're willing to spend" that I'm stuck on. If I spend upwards of $20k on a tool, I was hoping it wouldn't be made in China. Thoughts?

[David Kumm]

Someone here has an Altendorf that is Chinese and may chime in. The higher end stuff generally has good QC and a heavier build. The Chinese welds used to be more rough and extrusions less refined but you should look for yourself. The higher end machines are worth comparing if buying new. Pay attention to the motor quality and look at the spec's for the bearings and check the thickness of the base and the sliding table extrusion. Tables being flat, having the ability to lock the table anywhere along its path from a convenient location, good crosscut and rip fences that are easy to adjust and return to square are really important. The key is to buy something higher end than a comparable for the same price, not buy something that looks comparable for less. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

The resale value of the Chinese-made WA-8s that I’ve seen pop up has not been great. Usually less than $10k for one in good to excellent condition.

If you’ve got $20k to work with, I’d look at SCM or Felder.

[Jeff Duncan]

Erik - I'm really interested in this last point you made and would be interested in your and this community's opinion. I'm going through a decision making process right now for a very high end, European sliding table saw. One of the vendors produces one of their high end saws in China and I'm really struggling with it. I have to admit, I don't like the idea of buying a German/Austrian/Italian saw knowing it was made in China. By the reactions I've seen on this board, I'm coming to the conclusion that my concerns are silly. But it's a bias I'm having a hard time shaking. I don't have this issue with value tools that cost less than $5k.

It's the "how much you're willing to spend" that I'm stuck on. If I spend upwards of $20k on a tool, I was hoping it wouldn't be made in China. Thoughts?

It really depends on the specific product your looking at. You can't say anything made in China is poor quality anymore than you can say anything made in the States is good quality. We make more than our fair share of crap here too. So you have to do the research on the specific tool your looking at and possible find one locally you can check out in person. As someone mentioned previously, Apple products are made in China and quality control hasn't been an issue. It's up to the company that's having the product manufactured to specify and enforce quality control.

good luck,
JeffD

[Erik Loza]

...It's the "how much you're willing to spend" that I'm stuck on. If I spend upwards of $20k on a tool, I was hoping it wouldn't be made in China. Thoughts?

Mike, I understand your concern. My feeling is that if you're spending anywhere near $20K on a slider, unlikely it's going to be Chinese. From the SCM side, the only sliding table saw I know of that has Chinese components is the Si400 Nova, which is still assembled in Italy but has Chinese aluminum extrusions and a Chinese cast iron top. Chassis, motor, electrics still all Italian or German. But, that's a machine that goes out the door at around $11, not $20K. Once you get up to $20K in the SCM lineup, it's the Class series and those are all 100% Italian (and pretty darn nice, too). I would expect that to be the same same for most other mfrs. as well. But all that being said, I never had any issues with the Si400 Nova. It's simple and reliable and tough to beat at the "around $10K" price point. Mike, if I can ask, what saw are you looking at and is this for your home shop? PM me if you want. My SCM email account no longer exists, by the way.

Erik

[Eric Commarato]

When I bought my Powermatic 66 back in the 1990's it was along with Delta the American "standard" for small to medium cabinet shops and light industrial uses. I will say the quality of craftsmanship left much to be desired. The castings were rougher and not particularly ground and cleaned up very well. Welds were crappy etc. The Delta fit and finish was a little better. That said, now that the Asian countries have entered the scene, I must say their products are much superior in fit and finish to what was offered here in the US when local plants were manufacturing machinery in full force. However!!! I have seen used Grizzly table saws that still only sell for about half the price of a comparable used Powermatic 66 or Delta Unisaw. I don't know why this is, the Asian product doesn't seem to hold resale value that the older US machinery does. Perhaps someone here can explain this...??? The other thing I might say is that it was nice to get the "parts guy" in the dusty old office in McMinville, Tennessee when I used to call up there looking for a part. Now you call Powermatic and you get like an answering service of someone staring at a computer screen...

[Cary Falk]

When I bought my Powermatic 66 back in the 1990's it was along with Delta the American "standard" for small to medium cabinet shops and light industrial uses. I will say the quality of craftsmanship left much to be desired. The castings were rougher and not particularly ground and cleaned up very well. Welds were crappy etc. The Delta fit and finish was a little better. That said, now that the Asian countries have entered the scene, I must say their products are much superior in fit and finish to what was offered here in the US when local plants were manufacturing machinery in full force. However!!! I have seen used Grizzly table saws that still only sell for about half the price of a comparable used Powermatic 66 or Delta Unisaw. I don't know why this is, the Asian product doesn't seem to hold resale value that the older US machinery does. Perhaps someone here can explain this...??? The other thing I might say is that it was nice to get the "parts guy" in the dusty old office in McMinville, Tennessee when I used to call up there looking for a part. Now you call Powermatic and you get like an answering service of someone staring at a computer screen...

Well they can explain it to me also because I don't get it either. I have restored many tools and only have a PM1200 DP left. It looked like a 2 year old painted it with a rattle can post assembly. But alas, this is discussion for another thread

[Geoff Crimmins]

I have restored many tools and only have a PM1200 DP left. It looked like a 2 year old painted it with a rattle can post assembly. But alas, this is discussion for another thread

That sounds like a pretty accurate description of a Powermatic paint job. I recently restored a 1960s PM 141 bandsaw, and had to roll my eyes when I discovered they had painted the guide blocks in the blade guides. Oh well, they used high-quality castings to make good, solid machines.

I think the opinions of Asian machines has a lot to do with the history of the companies involved. Laguna's roots are in high-end Italian bandsaws, so most people have no concerns about their Chinese-made 14 SUV bandsaw, for example. Grizzly started off as an importer of Asian machines that were less expensive than the American-made alternatives. I think Grizzly has some great, innovate machines now, but some of their early machines weren't nearly as good. As a result, I think some people still perceive Grizzly machines as "cheap," which I think hurts the resale value. I guess that's good if you're buying and bad if you're selling.

--Geoff

[Michael Weber]

I wouldn't worry about the ISO900X certification. I work at a place that has the latest ISO certification. It basically says you have a documented procedure that you follow if your products are out of spec and you follow that product. Two companies can have the same ISO certification but vastly different tolerances. The one that has the tighter tolerances will usually have the better product.just wanted to confirm that ISO certification has nothing to do with quality of product. If a companies goal is to produce worthless, dangerous, non-working, potentially explosive pieces of junk then it's okay with ISO. It only matters if they inform ISO of and follow self submitted internal methods they use.

[Chris Fournier]

The OP's question is a tough one. Can a hobbyest buy Grizzly and believe that he has a forever machine that is top notch? I think that a lot do and as long as they feel this way then they are doing alright.

I started with a Taiwanese jointer and planer well over 20 years ago, I also bought a Delta 14" bandsaw at the time. It was clear to me that the Delta was a better built and finished machine. The jointer and planer were crude but did a lot of work for me. The planer drive was down right crappy and required machine shop solutions to make it better, a weld let go on the machine as well.

I bought a General table saw next and this was an eye opener. The 350 was my introduction to good equipment. I never bought Taiwanese or Chinese woodworking equipment again.

I up graded my jointer and planer with a Minimax FS 30 and this was my introduction to great equipment. Europeans currently build the finest woodworking equipment.

I would suggest to the OP to look at Grizzly, Hammer, Minimax and good used equipment as well as the new stuff. See the difference for yourself, ask yourself what you need to do the work that you want to do, determine your budget and then buy accordingly.

Sounds like you are about to have a really good time in your shop!

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I have many thousands in Cantek machinery in my shop. All made in Taiwan. My 20" planer, 16" long bed jointer, 37" wide belt sander, manual dovetail machine, 7.5HP tilting shaper, two power feeders, edge bander (about $70,000 worth in today's Canadian dollars) all serve me and my business very well for going on 6 years now since I set up a new shop.

I was looking at a similar European planer for instance... $10K for the Cantek, or $15 to $18 for the comparable (in terms of options, HP and head). Similarly for the remainder of the machinery.

When you are working equipment daily, what matters is that it is reliable - does what you need it to do and do well. Ive put 30 or 40 thousand board feet of hardwood through my planer (conservatively) and would a European made machine serve me better? I cannot see why it would. I had a nice Italian made jointer and planer in my last shop, sure it was fine too. But I wouldnt say it was better.

We had (in both our last two shops) predominantly European made, and some American made machinery - so I think I can compare things pretty well, after working for 20+ years with the old stuff. I was a bit "apprehensive" at first when looking at the Taiwanese made stuff, but after speaking to some other owners I felt pretty good about it. And now, I have zero regrets.

I would say I don't care where things are made, but it sure is hard to not have some bias based on the world we live in and people's perceptions and comments. I still "care" to a point, but try and keep an open mind and base judgements on facts and not general attitudes.

If I felt something was decent enough quality, and it was made in China - so what? But again, I'd do some research with others who have first hand experience. To get actual facts and not internet facts, lol.

[David Kumm]

Cantek makes some nice stuff. Stiles sells it as part of their Artisan line. I think the price difference is less now with the dollar so strong against the Euro. Dave

[Walter Plummer]

I have been catching up on this thread. I think some confusion comes in from the misconception that Quality Control means making the best product possible. In fact QC is just checking to make sure you are not out of tolerance to the level of quality intended. It can be +/- 0.003" for something high end or +/- 0.300" for "economy grade". As long as it falls between those numbers it passes. All this was decided before production began to make a unit cost to produce.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I have been catching up on this thread. I think some confusion comes in from the misconception that Quality Control means making the best product possible. In fact QC is just checking to make sure you are not out of tolerance to the level of quality intended. It can be +/- 0.003" for something high end or +/- 0.300" for "economy grade". As long as it falls between those numbers it passes. All this was decided before production began to make a unit cost to produce.

And that is the same conditions used in the ISO 9000 and ISO 9001 certifications. Does a manufactured product meet the standards set during the design process? If it meets the design standards, that is all that matters.

As stated....products can be manufactured to both high and low standards which usually means higher and lower prices and both meet ISO standards.

[Daniel Berlin]

Grizzly machines are knock-offs, (copies), of machines originally designed in other countries.....so they can't have "intellectual property" on something they "borrowed" and was not theirs to begin with;)



This is a pretty strong assumption.
In fact, i'd assume it was the opposite.
Geetech or someone is producing the main plans, and each manufacturer is tweaking them.

That's how ODM'ing normally works.

[Jeff Duncan]

This is a pretty strong assumption.
In fact, i'd assume it was the opposite.
Geetech or someone is producing the main plans, and each manufacturer is tweaking them.

That's how ODM'ing normally works.

Grizzly didn't exist when much of the traditional woodworking machinery guys use today was designed, (and it wasn't just them, we're talking about most of todays manufacturers of small shop equipment)....they were just the topic at hand. If you look at a most traditional machines, table saw, jointers, planers, shapers, sanders etc. etc... the basic designs are old. Most well over 50 years old, some closer to a century. Most of the companies that originally designed the machines are not around today. Hence all the traditional machinery we use manufactured today is copied from someone else. So to me it's pretty hard to claim any of those designs as one's own. I guess you could consider something like moving to power switch from the body of a jointer to a raised arm as an original idea, and hence intellectual property. But to me it's closer to adding some custom wheels to your truck, or upgrading the suspension, or any number of similar minute changes to the stock product..... at the end of the day it's still an Ford F-150 and you can't take ownership of that:D

I'm not a lawyer though and so maybe you can take a well established machine design and make a couple small changes and call it your own design and "intellectual property"? I also acknowledge that they may have other equipment not necessarily fitting the traditional mold, that are their own designs. But that's probably getting too technical a point, I think I was merely expressing what I believe the posters who found it ironic may have been thinking.....as it's what I was thinking as well;)

JeffD

[rudy de haas]

Grizzly machines are knock-offs, (copies), of machines originally designed in other countries.....so they can't have "intellectual property" on something they "borrowed" and was not theirs to begin with;)

As for the switch from Taiwan to China.....no real difference, Taiwan is part of China, (though they certainly don't like it).


JeffD

No - Taiwan is most certainly not part of China. The communists claim the Island, but the Islanders don't want anything to do with them and spend a good chunk of the national income preparing to defend themselves from an oft-promised communist invasion.

[Peter Kelly]

I love to know the story with $8,000 "Made in Germany" slider they sell...

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-6-5-HP-3-Phase-Sliding-Table-Saw/G0674?utm_campaign=zPage

http://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg1000/g/g0674-853cb42464917580dae951cc45d5c3eb.jpg

[brian zawatsky]

Erik, comparing Kentwood machinery to Grizzly machinery is like comparing a Bentley to a Daewoo lol

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Few subjects bring about as much argument as this one.

I had a friend who died 20 years ago from ALS. He was a machinist by trade, well respected even internationally. He worked for one of the major bullet manufacturers. He helped set up their factory in Mexico and trained their local people. Leaving the company, he established his own machining company in Alaska for a nearly 2 decades. When he got to where the weather bothered him and his spouse, he moved back to Lewiston. He was a certified aircraft mechanic, an accomplished tournament shooter in both rifle benchrest and pistol. He was a very accomplished gunsmith building everything from hunting rifles to benchrest competition rifles.

When he moved back to Lewiston, retired, he decided he didn't want to tie up as much money in major tools for gunsmithing, so he bought some higher end Taiwan manufactured lathe and other tools. How good were those tools? Just one or two years before ALS forced his complete retirement, two of the rifles he built made it through the qualification rounds and shot at the National rifle benchrest competitions.

He told me more than once, he was surprised at the quality of the tools and how well they worked. These weren't the low end, basement bargain tools.

That being said, most of us at this site are probably amateurs like me. While I bought an MM-16, an Oneida SDG DC and a PM3520B lathe, if I had to buy the higher end tools, I couldn't justify woodworking as a hobby. Yet, my Grizzly G0490X works great. In fact, Friday evening I cleaned, waxed the tables on it and my table saw. Yesterday they both performed well.

The old saying still holds true....you get what you pay for.......JMO

[jack duren]

I'm looking into purchasing a new jointer and planer for my shop and would like to go with the Grizzly machines, but now both machines I'm looking at are made in China, where they used to be made in Taiwan. Also, on the specifications sheet they are not produced in an ISO factory. Should I still consider Grizzly? I want to buy once and own nice machines to last a long time and not have the need to upgrade. Considering the G0490XW jointer and the G0453ZW, 8" jointer and 15" planer both with spiral cutterheads. Why is Grizzly now manufacturing in China? Are they starting to take more advantage of profits over quality? The customer service person I talked to says they are trying to meet the high demands for these machines.

If it had Old American quality would you pay double for it?

[Andrew J. Coholic]

You do get what you pay for. But, I think the theme of this "argument" is that just because it is made in China or Taiwan, it can't be automatically be considered garbage.

No matter where something is made, you still need to be aware of how it is made, and judge the quality based on first hand experience of others, your own inspection and similar.

Ive bought some tools made in Europe that were complete garbage as well. A few hand tools made in Germany come to mind. I never assume something is top end just because of where it was made.

[Martin Wasner]

Cantek makes some nice stuff. Stiles sells it as part of their Artisan line. I think the price difference is less now with the dollar so strong against the Euro. Dave

I've got a Cantek automatic dovetailer. It's okay. It took a lot of time to set it up, but the quality seems decent enough.

After I get a rip saw, (which a new Cantek is in the running), I need to upgrade my planer. I've been eyeing a Cantek for that as well,, but it's currently 4th on the lust list. A new invincible is #1, I don't think I need it, nor can I likely justify the cost. I'll likely end up with either an SCM or a Casadei. I'm pretty neutral on those two choices.

The Cantek stuff seems decent, I'm just concerned with longevity. I've bought a lot of yellow and green tools over the years, I wouldn't say any of it was money well spent, just what I could afford at the time.

[Cary Falk]

If it had Old American quality would you pay double for it?

Not if I gain only a little bit in quality. Not everything old American is good. If you think a 1950's Uni oozes old American quality, then that would make it's worth about $2800 considering a G1023 or G0690 is about $1400. I have not seen anybody on this forum say that they would even give $1400 for a Uni let alone $2800.

[Robert Engel]

You do get what you pay for. But, I think the theme of this "argument" is that just because it is made in China or Taiwan, it can't be automatically be considered garbage.

No matter where something is made, you still need to be aware of how it is made, and judge the quality based on first hand experience of others, your own inspection and similar.

Ive bought some tools made in Europe that were complete garbage as well. A few hand tools made in Germany come to mind. I never assume something is top end just because of where it was made.As much as I hate to see manufacturing leaving the US, what he is saying is true.

For the longest time, I refused to even look at the WoodRiver planes because it was made in China. Instead I was left with getting ripped off on Ebay because I couldn't afford/refused to pay for the premium planes on the market.

When they went on sale I remember I bought a #6 for $125 I think figuring "its a POJ what the heck, I'll just take it back". Boy was I surprised! No question it competes quite nicely with so called premium quality made in USA planes (you know who I'm talking about) for 1/2 the price.

What I'm concerned about is how long will it take before the US doesn't even KNOW how to make anything if they wanted to?

[Igor Vasilenko]

Not if I gain only a little bit in quality. Not everything old American is good. If you think a 1950's Uni oozes old American quality, then that would make it's worth about $2800 considering a G1023 or G0690 is about $1400. I have not seen anybody on this forum say that they would even give $1400 for a Uni let alone $2800.

Cary, the main reason few members on this forum would pay $2,800 for a Unisaw is mainly due to the fact that the market is now saturated with them - NOT because it is not necessarily worth that money. About 35 - 40 years ago, 1/2 to 5/8's of the new retail price was normally the base starting price for a decent used Uni, and that price went up depending on age, condition, etc. That was back before most of the Taiwan imports began coming in. All these Asian import businesses made the market so saturated with older equipment being sold off, because you'd be surprised how many guys think that newer should normally mean better in some way. I'd be safe to say that Asian equipment now numbers in the millions of units brought to NA, especially in the hobby level.

I own 4 Unisaws and 2 General 250's and 350's, mainly for the reason of them being so cheap. (I only can use one at a time, LOL) Most of mine I got for less than $100 each. Some came with original guarding and an upgraded fence system. Can't argue with that, eh?

Hence the reason I am shocked sometimes to see some folks shell out the money for something that is so abundant on the used market (like a cabinet TS), and takes almost nothing to get running smoothly, in the event it doesn't come that way already. (Bearing change, new belts, a bit of tlc).

To conclude this, I'll say that I have bought a few machines built in Taiwan and Japan. In fact, two of my shapers are built in Taiwan and I am really happy with how they perform! They cost comparably to their mainland China counterpart, but are built in a factory that has been building shapers since the early 70's.

When possible, I buy made in America. Have I bought crap that was labelled "made in USA" before? You bet! But then the onus is not on me, but on those that tarnish the image of a country conceived in freedom.

My 2 cents. FWIW.

[Ray Newman]

Igor Vasilenko +1

[Van Huskey]

All these Asian import businesses made the market so saturated with older equipment being sold off, because you'd be surprised how many guys think that newer should normally mean better in some way. I'd be safe to say that Asian equipment now numbers in the millions of units brought to NA, especially in the hobby level.



I think there are other more significant issues behind the saturation of Unis and to a lesser degree PM 66s. First, those are light duty saws and were mainly found in schools and light duty commercial (cabinet shops). Schools have been replacing these saws with Sawstop table saws and I have seen auction after auction with a dozen or so school Unis up for sale. Cabinet shops that are doing well and still have Unis around often are dumping them to make room for sliders which increase production, safety and accuracy and are less likely to be from Asia. There were a few Unis in medium to heavy commercial work, usually as a secondary cutting machine, but in this area CNC has pushed the table saw aside. The bottom line is the commercial use of traditional woodworking machines is almost done and cabinet shops have been moving to sliders and schools are moving to teaching CNC based work and/or installing Sawstops. While there are other issues at play like cheaper Asian alternatives the main reason for being able to buy old iron for pennies on the dollar is that industry (the ones still in NA) don;t use them anymore and have replaced or are replacing them with more accurate and cost effective machines.

[Ray Newman]

Van Huskey: "good take" on the situation!

[David Kumm]

I agree with the cost effective part, not necessarily the more precise part. The old iron had so many adjustments to compensate for wear they can still be as accurate or more so than new. The problem is that few machine guys are left to adjust them or understand how to oil bearings. The better values in older saws are the Delta 12-14 and PM 72 but the UNi has a cult following that I can't explain. Dave.