Think you can get thin shavings? Think Again!!

[Robert Engel]

Check it out: https://youtu.be/F8JgDKuOP10

[Luke Dupont]

I've seen a number of your videos. I find them interesting, but I am really put off by the bragadocious/hyperbolic/click-baity/all-that titles. Reminds me of a certain arrogant self styled "Japanese" woodworker popular on youtube.

I think more humble presentation will get you a better reception with people who actually know and appreciate woodworking.

But then, what do I know? Maybe your approach is more popular / profitable at the end of the day.

[Pat Barry]

That's Incredible! Thanks for the posting

[Kees Heiden]

He still has some way to go....
http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.nl/2013/01/thin-on-ground.html

[Simon MacGowen]

After watching the video, I think the title is appropriate though it may not be the taste of some others. The title in this case tells people what to expect: thin, very thin, shavings.

Simon

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks for the post Robert.
(I had no problem with the title.)
Fred

[Stew Denton]

Robert,

Wow! For what it's worth, in ROUGH numbers, 8 microns is 0.32 mils (or 0.00032"), 6 microns is roughly 0.24 mils (or 0.00024.")

Stew

[Patrick Chase]

I've seen a number of your videos. I find them interesting, but I am really put off by the bragadocious/hyperbolic/click-baity/all-that titles. Reminds me of a certain arrogant self styled "Japanese" woodworker popular on youtube.

The guy in the first part of the video earned it in this case - 6 um is remarkable. With that said it's probably not the most effective way to promote a video for the reason you state.

1/2 mil (12.7 microns) isn't terribly hard to achieve, but incremental gains become increasingly hard to come by as you try to go lower, so getting down to half of that is really impressive.

[Luke Dupont]

The guy in the first part of the video earned it in this case - 6 um is remarkable. With that said it's probably not the most effective way to promote a video for the reason you state.

1/2 mil (12.7 microns) isn't terribly hard to achieve, but incremental gains become increasingly hard to come by as you try to go lower, so getting down to half of that is really impressive.

Well, maybe I was a bit overly blunt. I do really appreciate the video, and intend it as constructive criticism / helpful advice! Not that anything qualifies me to give such advice ;)

I've never really looked into kezurokai and taking really thin shavings before though, so I'll take your word for it!

[Jim Koepke]

As one who enjoys the challenge of a thin shaving it was impressive to me.

The title was what got me to look.

My best shaving with an LN #62 was ~0.0004" if my memory is serving.

The wood used in the Japanese plane videos looks to have a better cell structure than the big box fir in my shop. Could that make much of a difference?

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

The wood definitely makes a difference Jim, it has to be tightly grained and good Alaskan yellow cedar is incredibly tightly grained.

[Joe Tilson]

Very nicely done, but how practical is shaving such a thin shaving to the average woodworker?

[Jim Koepke]

Very nicely done, but how practical is shaving such a thin shaving to the average woodworker?

In most applications it is not practical. Useless for a scrub plane or trying to remove a 1/16" or so of stock to dimension a piece.

For a few final smoothing passes, it can eliminate tear out and leave a mirror like finish.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Very nicely done, but how practical is shaving such a thin shaving to the average woodworker?

IMO it's impractical if you actually want to produce anything besides shavings (like, say, furniture). Sometimes you have to use thin shavings (<=1 mil) in final smoothing to avoid tearout, but for me that's the exception rather than the rule.

[Clark Christenson]

At some point the search for a thinner shaving must become academic. Imagine, if you will, a plane that takes off 1/16" of an inch and leaves a surface that is ready to be finished. Wouldn't that become the last plane every piece of wood sees?

Sure, thin shavings are impressive and fun to see but I am more concerned with the surface that is left behind.

Clark

[Luke Dupont]

At some point the search for a thinner shaving must become academic. Imagine, if you will, a plane that takes off 1/16" of an inch and leaves a surface that is ready to be finished. Wouldn't that become the last plane every piece of wood sees?

Sure, thin shavings are impressive and fun to see but I am more concerned with the surface that is left behind.

Clark

I think it is mostly for fun, and also as an exercise. Sometimes taking things to their extreme, while not practical, can teach you a lot.

[Patrick Chase]

At some point the search for a thinner shaving must become academic. Imagine, if you will, a plane that takes off 1/16" of an inch and leaves a surface that is ready to be finished. Wouldn't that become the last plane every piece of wood sees?

No, because you'd lose control over part dimensions and surface flatness. It wouldn't be easy to get those 1/16" strokes lined up "just so". Too much of a good thing in this case.

A plane that's capable of a glassy surface at any thickness up to 1/16" would be awesome though, as it would remove quality constraints from the choice of shaving thickness.

[Joe Tilson]

The next question becomes, what about accepting a finish? Wouldn't it be like sanding somewhere above 320 grit where the finish would bead up on the wood?

[Metod Alif]

Some surfaces are meant not to be finished. Quite common in Japanese woodworking/carpentry.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Joe Tilson]

Metod,
Thank you for reminding me how Japanese woodworking is not finished. I lived there from 1966-1968 and got involved with some of their woodworking. It was a wonderful experience watching some of their good woodworkers. I did not get to meet their best however.
The question still stands though; What would happen if one wanted to, say, stain said wood?
Have a blessed day,
Joe

I just took a look at Normand Leblanc's thread on this very subject.
Thank you Normand,
Joe

[Normand Leblanc]

I just took a look at Normand Leblanc's thread on this very subject.
Thank you Normand,
Joe

After reading this thread, I now see what you mean. I should have posted the video here.

Normand

[Patrick Chase]

Metod,
Thank you for reminding me how Japanese woodworking is not finished. I lived there from 1966-1968 and got involved with some of their woodworking. It was a wonderful experience watching some of their good woodworkers. I did not get to meet their best however.
The question still stands though; What would happen if one wanted to, say, stain said wood?
Have a blessed day,
Joe

I just took a look at Normand Leblanc's thread on this very subject.
Thank you Normand,
Joe

It's very finish-dependent. Even within "stain" there are a huge range of variables to consider (oil- vs water-base, dye vs pigment vs mixed, washcoat vs conditioner vs nothing, gel vs liquid, etc). In my experience some will work on a smoothly planed surface, others may need thinning or a flow additive, and some won't work at all. The same applies to finishes in general, with water-base and film-building finishes being more problematic overall, though I've successfully used both on freshly planed wood.

I believe that Stanley said in another thread that he uses poly on finely planed surfaces, it might be interesting to hear what he's using.

Of course if you're going down the film-building route then it might be a "don't care" anyway, as the surface of the wood matters less the more you build your finish up.

Also keep in mind that sanding with very high grits tends to "close" the pores, which planing doesn't do, so the usual prohibitions against sanding too high aren't necessarily relevant to planing.

[Brian Holcombe]

FWIW I have shellacked and recently dyed finely planed surfaces. I would imagine maybe water based finishes might be trouble, but otherwise it has not been a problem.

[Patrick Chase]

FWIW I have shellacked and recently dyed finely planed surfaces. I would imagine maybe water based finishes might be trouble, but otherwise it has not been a problem.

Older water-based finishes would be a problem IMO. The newer ones that I've tried recently for both brushing and spraying have better flow-out characteristics and work reasonably well. They're still more finicky than many oil-based finishes, though, in that you can't add mineral spirits or lacquer thinner (both of which wet out much better than water) until it works.

Shellac also wets out extremely well, especially in light cuts. I bet an alcohol-based stain (another variation that I forgot to list) would work nicely for the same reason.

Going back to my previous comment, a lot of the problematic finishes (higher-solids varnishes and water-based finishes for example) arguably don't make much sense on a freshly planed surface anyway. You're not going to be able to tell the difference between planed and sanded by the time you're done building up that sort of film.