Cermark on Brass and Stainless

[Brett Winston]

Can anyone speak to the durability of Cermark on brass and on stainless steel? The items will be handled often, think "pen" or other frequently used household item. And which formula is your answer based on, i.e., I've heard that LM6000 is not necessarily the best for brass even though it's been listed elsewhere as a suitable formula for brass.

Thanks! -Brett

[Chris J Anderson]

I haven't done brass,

but Cermark LM6000 when etched properly can not be removed from stainless without aggressive sanding.

[Seann Fordham]

I engraved some brass maybe 1-2 years ago with cermark and stuck it outside my house to see how long it'd last outdoors, apart from a bit of tarnishing the engraving has held up really good. No idea how long it would last on something handled constantly though.

[Tim Bateson]

NASA has tested it in space, I'd say it's pretty durable. http://lasermarkingmaterials.blogspot.com/2005/12/cermark-laser-marks-survive-rigors-of.html

[Brett Winston]

NASA has tested it in space, I'd say it's pretty durable. http://lasermarkingmaterials.blogspot.com/2005/12/cermark-laser-marks-survive-rigors-of.html

Now that's the kind of testimonial I was hoping for!

[Brett Winston]

I engraved some brass maybe 1-2 years ago with cermark and stuck it outside my house to see how long it'd last outdoors, apart from a bit of tarnishing the engraving has held up really good. No idea how long it would last on something handled constantly though.

Seann, did you use the LMM6000 or LMM14 formula?

[Tim Bateson]

I now only use LMM-6038. It works great on shinny metals like chrome and much more reliable on SS. I dilute it in a small jar and use a foam brush. I would never consider using LMM-6000 on Brass. It's hit or miss as the best you can expect.

[Seann Fordham]

Pretty sure it was LMM6000, the settings I used were half of that of stainless steel and 600dpi if I remembered correctly.

[Tim Bateson]

Sean, I see you have a Fiber. That works great for Marking brass without Cermark. Slower than Cermark, but a good mark. On SS the Fiber mark is better, but too slow to make any money.

[Kev Williams]

The only brass I've Cermarked are cowbells from Norway, the brass they use is mostly from reclaimed ammo casings. My 40w Synrad laser will NOT 'reliably' mark these bells. Still, I did a lot of bells with this machine over the years, but added 2 coats of clear enamel. This works, and makes the mark look like paint. However, my 80w glass laser WILL 'somewhat reliably' mark these bells, but while an SS mark basically must be sanded or ground off, wire brushing can remove SOME of the mark off these bells. But in the absence of abrasion it's a fairly good mark...


I now only use LMM-6038. It works great on shinny metals like chrome and much more reliable on SS. I dilute it in a small jar and use a foam brush. I would never consider using LMM-6000 on Brass. It's hit or miss as the best you can expect.
Funny, Thermark recommends NOT using 6038, and really seems to be pushing the 14:

In general, however, TherMark recommends LMM14 (http://www.thermark.com/content/view/35/78/) for all the substrates on which LMM6038 works, so it is not a recommended product. LMM6038’s process window is quite narrow and it is a challenging product to use. If you are an existing user and do not wish to upgrade to LMM14 (http://www.thermark.com/content/view/35/78/), you may still purchase LMM6038.

-- So, does the 6038 have about the same mix ratio as the 6000 (which gets worse with each bottle)?

[Tim Bateson]

...Funny, Thermark recommends NOT using 6038, and really seems to be pushing the 14...

Hmmm I wonder why. To-date the 6038 has performed many times better and more reliable than 6000. When I run low, I may try the LMM14. The bottle of 6038 that I have is about like pancake batter. I dilute it about 1:3 - Cermark:denatured alcohol. Seems to be very forgiving regardless how thick or thin it's applied. I initially diluted using water, but it took too long to dry.

[Seann Fordham]

Sean, I see you have a Fiber. That works great for Marking brass without Cermark. Slower than Cermark, but a good mark. On SS the Fiber mark is better, but too slow to make any money.
This was done on our old Universal before we had a fiber, also we engrave lots of jewellery, knives, giftware, lots of our own items that we sell here at the shop, so most items are set up easily and engraved in seconds. Our bulk work is mostly done on the c02 (lots of glass, signage, etc).

Only thing we use our Vision engraver for now days is outdoor brass plaques that we engrave with roughly 0.5mm depth.

[Don Corbeil]

I've used LMM 6000 on brass memorial tags for about a year now. These tags came with a clear gloss coat which I've had to sand down to bare metal to be able to get a mark. The mark on these brass tags is dark and permanent. As far as durability, once when I had to redo a tag, I had to orbital sand in order to remove the mark completely, and even then there was a shadow leftover. I then had to go over and sand with a super fine grit to completely erase. As far as I can tell, the LMM 6000 holds up well in my experience. I haven't tried the other formulas mentioned here.

[Kev Williams]

80 watts should fuse Cermark to brass nicely :)

Instead of sanding the brass first, have you tried letting the laser remove the clearcoat? Just engrave the coating with your text/graphics first, then apply cermark and engrave the black. Quicker than sanding, and the rest of the brass is still coated.

I've had good luck with doing this, although test first to make sure the laser can get all the clear off :)

[Greg W Watson]

I recently ran out of Lmm-6000 and I never really had great results with it. I had good results but NOT what I consider great. I decided to try the LMM-6060 so I bought the smallest size they had and talk about an INSTANT increase in results. I did a power test to verify my settings and then etched 150 RTIC cups with it for a local law firm and they are far better than I ever got with the LMM-6000. I have since ordered the larger container and will never look back.

Another bonus is the color is a darker green and is easier to tell when you get a nice even coat with the airbrush. I thin 2 parts DA to 1 part CM

[Don Corbeil]

80 watts should fuse Cermark to brass nicely :)

Instead of sanding the brass first, have you tried letting the laser remove the clearcoat? Just engrave the coating with your text/graphics first, then apply cermark and engrave the black. Quicker than sanding, and the rest of the brass is still coated.

I've had good luck with doing this, although test first to make sure the laser can get all the clear off :)


Kev, that's a great idea! :)
I'll have to make a jig to make sure that the text is lined up perfectly when I do the second marking pass. It's an odd shape (aspen leaf) so it's not easy to square up to begin with.
But I'm going to try this! And yes, the 80W does put a nice dark mark down on the brass. I run my brass tags at 100p, 20sp, 1000ppi

[Ross Moshinsky]

Kev, that's a great idea! :)
I'll have to make a jig to make sure that the text is lined up perfectly when I do the second marking pass. It's an odd shape (aspen leaf) so it's not easy to square up to begin with.
But I'm going to try this! And yes, the 80W does put a nice dark mark down on the brass. I run my brass tags at 100p, 20sp, 1000ppi

Tape the leaf down and apply Cermark while the leaf is still in the machine. Makes life much easier.

[Kev Williams]

You should experiment with that 1000ppi, I run at 600 UNLESS I'm doing high detail on watches or knives, then I'll run 800 or 1000. If you CAN get by with 600, what took you 10 minutes will only take 6! :)

Jigs- I'm not sure if your parts or flat or what, but can their shape be cut into some plastic or cardboard? If so, consider making a matrix jig that will hold several parts at once-

I have several, this is one I just used yesterday. Holds these buttons nicely- This is '2-step', because some of these buttons have a post on top (on the bottom surface) that protrudes down- The piece of 1/8" plex below allows for the posts. The laser that engraves the buttons (my GCC) is the same laser that cut the pockets, and I use the same pocket cut layout to center the text in. Same laser, same pattern, so everything always aligns perfectly. Before each new job I just make sure 2 opposite corners are on the money, then all others will be perfectly aligned, just have to edit the text :)

346162346163

For my repeats I use Plastic. I have a bunch of this red courtesy of a customer who over-bought and doesn't want it back (it's screenprinted on the face)..
BUT, if you buy ADA single-color Rowmark or whatever, it's less than the 2-color stuff. $6 or $7 for a square foot is well worth the convenience!

For one-off jobs, I just use priority mail box cardboard, it's not very thick and usually flat enough to work well. For thicker needs (watches etc), I just find a flat piece of regular cardboard.

Anyway, if you CAN make yourself such a matrix jig for your brass parts, you can load up the jig, blast away the clearcoat, then add Cermark and run the black, all without ever moving them :)
(if you SPRAY your cermark, consider brushing it! If that's not an option, just place your jig and parts on a thin piece of acrylic, then you can pull the whole bunch out, spray, then put them back in and run 'em. The only caveat is your parts must fit the jig snug, and you must have a good right-angle starting-corner that you know the jig will butt against consistently)

[Don Corbeil]

thanks for the tips!
I think I'll try taping it down and then apply the liquid version of LMM 6000. What speed do you think (on a 80W) would be enough to take off the clear coat in one pass? I was thinking of going in there with a pass of 100p 50sp for starters. Hopefully there's not any 'residue' leftover that would interfere with a good bond to the brass underneath.

[Kev Williams]

speed/power sounds good. Be sure to wipe with alcohol or maybe acetone after burn-off to remove the soot & stuff before cermarking.

For a one-shot pass, adjusting lines per inch may help. If it's coming off easily, you may only need 300 or 400 lines per inch. If a bit tougher, maybe 500 or 600.

I'm thinking with 80 watts and 400 lines, the beam overlap is near 50% on each pass, so I'd start at 400..

Do you have any trophy brass? That's actual brass and not 'laser-steel' or brass plated aluminum? Trophy brass is coated and you could it for testing...