First Table Saw Advice

[Lucas Hurt]

Hi all,

I'm trying to decide what to get for my first table saw. I have some serious constraints. First is space. I have a very small man cave in the basement where I would like to keep the saw when not in use. When in use, it would either be outside or in the tiny shop depending on the size of wood I'm putting in it. Anything heavier than about 100 pounds is going to be just too difficult to move given my basement location.

Most of the project I currently envision for the saw are small, either related to model boat construction, or small boxes with the occasional cabinet through in. I have a circular saw and would use that to cut up any plywood to rough dimensions.

My primary consideration is the DW745. It cheap compared to other new options, has a small footprint, and could be built into a worktable in the shop if I end up using it a lot. On the other hand there are lots of well cared for old Craftsman 100 saws in my area for about half the price of the Dewalt. Without a wing, the table is similar in size to DW745. Basically I would be considering any smallish contractor type saw with a belt driven induction motor on the back. I think any type of hybrid saw will be too cumbersome to move outside for larger work pieces.

Pros for the Dewalt:
- more precise fence
- riving knife
- very easy to move
- small footprint
- dust collection?


Pros for an older used contractor saw:
- cast iron table
- larger top specifically larger throat distance for crosscutting on a sled
- induction motor (quieter indoors)
- cheaper

Probably my biggest question is which would be better for small joinery work found in box making. Is there any way to answer that? I suppose arbor runout and alignment when raising a lowering the blade are consideration? Anyone have experience to offer?

What else affects cut quality and accuracy? I assume both would have similar power in the motor, roughly 1hp. I'd be buying a new blade for either saw.

If this is simply a case of 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other, that would be useful information too.

Thanks for any opinions.

[Patrick Curry]

If you have $600 or so, I'd try to find a used 14" band saw and then also a used contractors saw. I don't have experience building model boats but I'm imagining thin and small wood strips, and curves.

I wouldn't personally buy a new contractors saw simply because the resale market offers so many, and at a substantially lower price (than new). If you go this route just be sure to get one with a decent fence. But then again, you might just need a cross cut sled on that contractors saw if these all small cuts.

I have a crappy 40 yr old hybrid TS and hate it (fence issues) so I use my 18" band saw for ripping whenever possible. Just get the right blades and you'll be set. Of that $600 I'm suggesting, spend something like $450 on the BS and $150 on the contractors saw.

If you were doing more with sheet goods I'd suggest track saws, but not for small cuts.

Hope at least some of this was helpful.

[Eric Schmid]

If you are going to be moving this saw in and out of a basement to use, the 745 is a good compact saw. It's not going to be much help in cabinet work due to the short fence rails (16" rip capacity?). Dust collection on the newer jobsite saws is much better as they have a blade shroud. The riving knife is also a huge plus for the newer saws. I have stuck with the Dewalt jobsite saws primarily for the fence.

You sound like a good candidate for a track saw though:)

[John Lankers]

The DeWalt has good rip capacity (I think it is around 24"), riving knife, relatively good dust collection and low weight.
The rip fence on the DeWalt is compared to most other saws in this category excellent and the miter gauge is garbage, you want to build a crosscut sled anyway regardless of which saw you're gonna buy.
The Bosch is more money but can be bought with integrated folding carriage.
Oh, btw. they are all screemers.

[C Scott McDonald]

I have the DW745 and it ok. It got me through a home remodel. It is easy to move for sure. The fence is ok not anything special. It is surprisingly loud for what it is. I didn't use it for fine woodworking but general construction and trim work and it was great for that.

[peter Joseph]

My shop is 81 sq ft (9x9) so I have the bosch on the gravity lift stand. It's a beast of a saw to be honest. I ripped 12/4 oak for my roubo all day long with a sharp thin kerf blade. The fence rails open up a little beyond 24 to rip down sheet goods if need be though I wouldn't try it solo with such a small table. It would be more than sufficient for your purposes.

And yes, as others have said, any of these direct drive saws are pretty loud.

[Frederick Skelly]

I havent tried the dewalt you are considering. But my first saw was a direct drive delta jobsite saw from a home center. I HATED that saw because the fence just wasnt good enough for making good quality rip cuts and the miter gauge wasnt much better for crosscutting. I didnt know then that jobsite saws (in that class) were for carpentry work rather than the pretty high quality cabinet and box work I wanted to do.

I gave it to a buddy and bought a used delta contractor saw. Mine came with a long biesemeyer fence but you can get smaller, quality fences to fit your space. I added an incra miter gauge and built a really nice stand on wheels. It moves around easily.

Some will differ, but many of the used contractor saws I tried had stock fences that were dramatically better than that darn direct drive saw.

If I did it over, I'd buy a track saw and a bandsaw as others suggested.

Another option in a small space is hand tools. You can often outfit a shop with a few used handsaws, used hand planes and chisels for less than buying a couple machines. You have the learning curve of sharpening and using them, but there's some enjoyment in that too. You can read about this option on our Neanderthal forum here.

Good luck! Look forward to seeing some of your work posted here!

Fred

[Michael Zerance]

I keep the 745 on the truck for site work. It is small and light and it has handle grips on the side making it really easy to load, unload, and maneuver. The fence is the main selling point though. It is dead on accurate and square no matter how much it gets knocked around. The rack and pinion really works well and smooth.

I believe that the manual states that a dado stack cannot be used on it (I never had a need to test this out). Also, the rip capacity is limited. You would need a good circular saw or track saw for larger work.

I did an out-of-state project for a friend and ended up selling him my 745 because he needed it to finish up the project and I figured it would give me the opportunity to upgrade to a bigger/better saw. I bought the Porter Cable saw and returned it the next day; what a piece of garbage. I played around with the Ridgid and the Bosch which were both too big and bulky with their attached stands. Eventually, I just got another 745 and couldn't be more content.

I purchased the scissor stand for it, DW7450, which folds up flat like a saw horse. The saw just sits on it without requiring bolts or clamps. It has a small footprint when setup and stores compactly in the corner of my van.

I never measured the arbor for runout but it always seemed to cut straight, square, and true. If I was going to have to move a saw in and out of a basement, this would be the only one I would consider.

[Prashun Patel]

IMHO, moving ANY saw - even a circular saw in and out of the basement is going to be more painful than it's worth. I would instead get a track saw and a router table.

In my opinion, smaller saws are ironically better suited to larger projects like cabinets where accuracy isn't as critical as it is for 'small boxes'. Those require the greatest accuracy. You can use a track saw for breaking down your parts, and then the router table for the joinery. A track saw will make cabinetry just fine.

[Lucas Hurt]

Wow, so many great responses. This is an amazing forum.
It sounds like the new saw isn't going to be very precise, but probably a cheap older saw won't either. Perhaps the best thing it to try it and see. Around here the used portable saws are nearly what a new one costs, kind of like a Subaru.

I do have a small band saw, but I really need to learn how to use it more creatively. I should start by getting a new blade. And spending some time practicing.

Interesting so many people recommended a track saw. That will take some further consideration due to my ignorance in techniques for using them, but mostly they are more expensive than either table saw option. A router for joinery is a pretty good idea, but I've literally never used one. Since I'm such a beginner, I want start with cheaper equipment, I'm not sure if this will be a lifelong hobby and where I live getting good resale value isn't too likely. With so much to learn, I really just need to start.

Thanks everyone.

[Prashun Patel]

"Since I'm such a beginner, I want start with cheaper equipment, I'm not sure if this will be a lifelong hobby and where I live getting good resale value isn't too likely. With so much to learn, I really just need to start."

I respect where you are in your journey. I was there. Research track saw systems. Yes, they are more expensive, but if you decide it's not worth it, you can sell it easily - if you buy a decent one.

Routers are not expensive. You can even find them used on CL regularly. You can make your own table.

Respectfully, I'd do some more research before choosing a path. I built quite a few projects with a circular saw, cordless drill and a hand held router.

[rudy de haas]

I have used various small contractor saws and think (a) that most are ok for rough work; (b) all of the fences suck (rigid's, for example, isn't rigid); and (c) they are much better for cutting easy woods like pine then hardwoods like Maple - and more dangerous than you might expect when cutting very hard woods like hickory or Jatoba, because, when something catches, you get the saw moving instead of the wood ripping.

A track saw will cost more and be somewhat harder to use if you do a lot of cut once, reposition, cut something else work, but will be easier to move up and down your stairs.

If everything you plan to make is small, consider going nuts and mounting a radial arm saw on your workbench, while leaving the larger table saw in the garage. Radial arm saws are cheap on the used market and what they do, they do well.

I have no experience with things like the ShopSmith multi-tool and thus don't know if they work well or not - but if you bought two of the main chassis units, you could have one downstairs and carry the individual bits up and down your stairs easily. There are shopsmith collectors, but lots of ok looking (to the inexperienced eye, anyway) used stuff available too.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Where do you live? Maybe a member who might be close by could offer some help?

[Phil Mueller]

Lucas, I have the 745 and it has served my needs well for a number of years. I'm in the same space restraints as you. I use it primarily for rough dimensioning, but have also used it to cut some very accurate miters for picture frames and the like.

Here's my "cons":

Large/long stock is a challenge...often requiring some sort of outfeed/infeed set up.
It's heavier than you think and doesn't slide around well. A mobil base would solve this issue.
Dust collection is poor, at best (typical of contractor's saws). It will throw sawdust everywhere. There are internet posts from a number of folks who have built enclosures to help with this.
It is loud.
The miter slot is ok...given it's formed plastic, some slot jigs can be sloppy if the jib's miter slot runners do not have a way to adjust them.
A number of pre-made jigs won't fit well given the miter slots are closer to the saw blade...some custom fitting is required (I've had to reposition a few miter slot runners on jigs to get them to work).
The saw blade angel adjustment markings are close, but not perfect...always check with an accurate miter guage and readjust as necessary.
Adjusting the alignment of saw blade/fence/miter slot is a pain. But once you do it once, it holds very well.
Won't take a dado stack

Pros:
Compact and stores away in a small space
Powerful enough for most work (I've even used it to resaw 6" wide boards)
Changing blades is easy
Fence is very accurate (front to back in relation to the blade)
Once the miter slot/blade/fence are aligned, it performs very well


Probably some things I can't think of right now...but, given your situation and your needs, I think you'd be happy with it...just need to realize it's never going to be a cabinet saw.

[Jim Dwight]

If you can find one used (they are no longer available) the Ryobi BT3100 is a very accurate saw with a good fence and is small enough to be moved like the DeWalt 745. I've had one for about 10 years. I had it set up with extension rails for 60 inch rip capacity but then I bought a DeWalt track saw and took off the extension rails. I still use it with the stock rails. It has a sliding miter table instead of a miter slot, it is belt driven (but with a universal motor) and will cut 3.5 inch deep, and will take a full dado stack. New I think I paid $300 for mine so you should be able to get it inexpensively used if you can find one. The BT3000 was first and is similar but some models have 12 amp (instead of 15 amp) motors and the shims, the weakness of this saw, are not as well designed. The shims are part of the height adjustment mechanism and must be lubricated periodically with a dry lube. I use paraffin. That is a bit of a pain but the saw is quite precise and might be a good fit for you.

Lease expensive track saw is the Grizzly. Reviews are not great but with a new blade (almost any brand will be better) some users like it just fine. I use a track saw for bigger pieces of wood and my BT3100 for smaller things.

[Robert Engel]

Since I'm such a beginner, I want start with cheaper equipment,
I think this is the biggest mistake beginners can make.

IME cheap tools (especially hand tools) result in frustration, confusion and disappointment. Worst of all, they will inhibit development of skill. We tend to blame ourselves for poor results when, in fact, its likely to be the tool. IMO an underpowered table saw with an inaccurate fence is extremely dangerous.

Always, always buy the best tools you can afford. Think of them as an investment, not an expense.

As for your specific question, it really all depends on what you're doing. So a year from now when you've got your feet on the ground and you decided to run some 8/4 hardwood through that saw, you may or may not discover how limited it is.

More inline with what I said at first, you would have to use a heavy duty cabinet saw to know the differnence.

You could consider going with a rip saw and do it by hand. Power tools prompt other issue such as dust collection. In considering the track saw, router, etc, if this could be done outside the shop - big advantage.

With a hand saw there is much less saw dust to inhale. Power tools spewing out dust in a basement, you will have considerations not only dust getting in your lungs but also in your house ....;-)

[Michael Zerance]

...all of the fences suck...

Have you used the 745? To me, that was the selling point of the saw. Quick to set, dead-on accurate, always square to the blade, moves freely, and locks down solid. Otherwise, I agree with you, the fences on most of the other small saws suck. The Bosch looked promising but I never used it.

[Michael Zerance]

I hear this all the time, "buy the best you can afford". I disagree.

I agree with Robert that tools should be considered an investment and that you should buy quality tools but I don't think you need to spend the entirety of your budget as he alluded to. Purpose should dictate the purchase, not the availability of funds. Tools are easy to upgrade later, if needed.

Example: I started out with my 745 table saw. When I started making projects with larger parts, the saw's rip capacity limited me so I purchased a 1 1/2hp Ridgid R4511 granite top contractors saw. It was a great saw and worked well for me for years; I made a lot of projects with it. When I started working with thick hardwoods, the saw would occasionally stall and pop the breaker. I sold the Ridgid and upgraded to a 3hp Grizzly 1023SL.

Example: I had a project which required a band saw so I purchased a low-end Delta 14" saw. I had dreams of installing the riser block and adding the Kreg fence and even getting a bigger, more powerful saw. In 10 years, I never had a need for any of that. My vision of resawing lumber never materialized. If I would of "bought the best I could afford", I would have had a large band saw, taking up room in my shop with capacity I would never use, higher cost of replacement blades, and higher power consumption.

Tools don't make the carpenter.

[Frederick Skelly]

Dang. You folks have said so many good things about the fence on that 745 that I wish I'd stumbled onto it first instead of the crappy delta I originally bought. :mad:

For the OP: Id like to clarify something someone said about cabinet saws being better than contractor saws. I dont doubt that for a minute, but not everyone needs that much ooomph. It depends on what you build. I have been woodworking for years and never sawn 8/4 hardwood - not even once. A cabinet saw gives you the CAPABILITY to do nearly anything possible, but you can make do with a lot less if you need to and still enjoy the hobby. Dont let us (unintentionally) scare you into thinking otherwise. These are all good guys, and as you can see, we each have different approaches and philosophies.

[Roy Turbett]

Check out the two part episode Norm Abrahms did on the New Yankee workshop on table saws. Its posted on Youtube. He does a good job of explaining the differences between the various types of saws and provides valuable information on how easy it to move them around. Keep in mind that its easier to move a large cabinet saw on casters laterally than it is to move virtually any saw vertically like you will be doing going from the basement to the garage.

[Jim Dwight]

I also do not think the "buy the best you can afford" is good logic. My logic is more "buy the cheapest that will do the work". My wife teases me about being too cheap. Somewhere between the two is probably about right. But discerning that is a challenge. I have a cheap direct drive Ryobi and to use it you have to check the fence front and back before each cut. That's a hassle. My wife had it when we got married. I used it to cut flooring when we were redoing her house before she sold it. I didn't like checking the fence all the time but it works and I still have it. If I need to use two saws, I could set it up on my workbench (Paulk style on tubing flush with the workbench top). But something like this would only work for a very patient worker - not me.

At the otber end would be a 5 hp cabinet saw or a slider depending on your mindset. If you have the space and the money I'm sure they are nice. I used a big cabinet saw many years ago in woodshop. I've never used a slider but my little BT3100 has a small sliding table so I know the concept (but the Ryobi is not at all like a $10,000 slider).

I consider my BT3100 a good between the two extremes but others would go to a hybrid or at least a DeWalt or Bosch portable saw and a stand. Sears sold a version of the BT3100 for years on a special stand which wheels away. For somebody space challenged they are a good alternative. If I did not have a dedicated shop garage, I would look hard at a Paulk total station with my BT3100 or a DeWalt or Bosch portable. Some things take more time with a "lesser" setup but it does not have to result in less precise work.

[rudy de haas]

Have you used the 745? To me, that was the selling point of the saw. Quick to set, dead-on accurate, always square to the blade, moves freely, and locks down solid. Otherwise, I agree with you, the fences on most of the other small saws suck. The Bosch looked promising but I never used it.

Yes. When we got this house, the decking outside was rotten so I replaced it using my neighbor's DW745. The price was right (bought him a new blade) .. and the saw worked, but I did not think the thing worth looking at when I needed to buy a saw of my own. For example: no large piece of the deck is quite square so I ended up ripping several 12 foot treated fir 2 x 6s to produce pie slices - e.g. 1" at one end, 3.75 at the other. An ideal track saw job, not hard on my heavy cabinet saw, but difficult to do (and barely within the power range of) the dw745.

[Brian W Evans]

As always, lots of good advice here. I have a Bosch 4100 job-site saw on the gravity rise stand. I never move the saw separate from the stand so I don't know about carrying it up stairs, but I do remember thinking it was relatively light when I put it on the stand. I use it for all my construction projects and I get excellent results. I also built a nice sled for it and wouldn't hesitate to use it for small parts that require accuracy. I have built a couple of boxes with it that turned out well.

I suggest you watch some videos to see what you want to do and how it might be done. Lots of New Yankee Workshop episodes are online, along with the Wood Whisperer, Rough Cut with Tommy MacDonald, etc., etc., etc.

A few other recommendations for a person just starting out:



A good block plane
A router built into a table (could basically just be a piece of plywood with a hole in it). You can find a decent router on Craigslist almost anytime.
Doug Stowe's DVD on boxmaking (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UZS7ZA). He uses a contractor saw and other entry-level tools to build beautiful boxes.
Gary Rogowski's DVD on router joinery (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561587141). He uses a piece of plywood as a router table and gets great results.
Sandor Nagyszalanczy's book on jigs and fixtures (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561587702). He uses the Bosch 4100 saw and a bunch of other inexpensive tools very creatively.
Keep reading and posting on the 'Creek! I've learned more here than anywhere else.


Best of luck.

[Stan Calow]

Its the ". . .you can afford" part that is the key. If I had waited to have enough money to buy a quality t-saw (instead of the $99 Delta bench top) I would never have gotten around to actually doing any woodworking.

I just looked over a 745 at an estate auction yesterday. Looks like a good saw.

[Greg Peterson]

Moving a Sears contractor saw is a chore. They're portable in the sense they can be moved. By two or more people.

[Robert Engel]

I hear this all the time, "buy the best you can afford". I disagree.

I agree with Robert that tools should be considered an investment and that you should buy quality tools but I don't think you need to spend the entirety of your budget as he alluded to. Purpose should dictate the purchase, not the availability of funds. Tools are easy to upgrade later, if needed.

Example: I started out with my 745 table saw. When I started making projects with larger parts, the saw's rip capacity limited me so I purchased a 1 1/2hp Ridgid R4511 granite top contractors saw. It was a great saw and worked well for me for years; I made a lot of projects with it. When I started working with thick hardwoods, the saw would occasionally stall and pop the breaker. I sold the Ridgid and upgraded to a 3hp Grizzly 1023SL.

Example: I had a project which required a band saw so I purchased a low-end Delta 14" saw. I had dreams of installing the riser block and adding the Kreg fence and even getting a bigger, more powerful saw. In 10 years, I never had a need for any of that. My vision of resawing lumber never materialized. If I would of "bought the best I could afford", I would have had a large band saw, taking up room in my shop with capacity I would never use, higher cost of replacement blades, and higher power consumption.

Tools don't make the carpenter.I disagree re: buy for a purpose because as your experience shows, one's ww'ing always evolves.

You ended up buying 3 tablesaws which I think this validates my suggestion.

I never said blow the entire budget only buy the best you can afford.

[Michael Zerance]

I disagree re: buy for a purpose because as your experience shows, one's ww'ing always evolves.

You ended up buying 3 tablesaws which I think this validates my suggestion.

I provided two examples. Yes, the table saw example seems to validate your suggestion but the band saw example does not. It is easy and inexpensive to upgrade tools later if/when needed (the table saw example). Overbuying for extra capacity or dream projects (the band saw example) is pointless because it is difficult to predict in which ways and in which direction one's woodworking will evolve.


I never said blow the entire budget only buy the best you can afford.I don't see the difference. If I have a tool budget, that is the amount I can afford. Quality and cost usually rise together, so "the best" is going to be at the upper limits of my budget.

[Robert Engel]

I don't see the difference. If I have a tool budget, that is the amount I can afford. Quality and cost usually rise together, so "the best" is going to be at the upper limits of my budget.[/QUOTE]
I don't know what part of "buy the best tool you can afford" bothers you or why you are even disagreeing with me.

What you can afford IS your budget. That could be a yardsale 40 year old Craftsman, a Harbor Freight or Saw Stop.

[Michael Zerance]

I don't know what part of "buy the best tool you can afford" bothers you...
No offense intended; let's move on as friends.

[Dick Brown]

I am in the "Buy what you need" camp on this one. I buy old saws and refurbish them as a hobby. Have had 10 or more cabinet saws, literally dozens of contractor style and a few portable ones. As a rule, most of the used portable saws that I have found for sale are not worth messing with. (There are always exceptions) I and most others have always given the Craftsman a verbal thrashing because of the rip fence so I would just jerk the fence off and put on a shop built Biesemeyer clone. Picked up a good belt drive the other day for $20 and decided to see if the fence could be made useable. Took the angle iron rails off, sanded them smooth, remounted them at the proper height to give clearance between fence and table, adjusted the little spring mounted nylon thingy that is supposed to keep the fence tight to the rail, waxed the rails and what do you know, it moves straight, locks down tight, very usable. This saw is not something I would want to move up and down stairs nor one I would want to give up my cabinet saw with a Biesemeyer fence for. The point I am trying to make, I guess, is only you can make the decision on actual need, portability, budget, whether you want to invest sweat rather than $$ If you think you will get serious into wood working, If you would be happy with used or stuck on new, etc. Good luck.

[paul cottingham]

Honestly, if I was to start all over again, I wouldn't buy a table saw. I would buy a track saw and build a good assembly table designed for holding the track as well. If I had the money, I would buy a festool, with the dust collector, only because I know how well it works. If the dewalt (or any others) has good dust collection, go with it.

[scott spencer]

I think an aspect that most beginners don't anticipate is the significance in the difference in the space in front of the blade when you compare a portable and a full size stationary saw. The bigger saws offer much more area to get the board flat, settled, and flush with the fence before the board contacts the blade. The smaller landing zone of a portable saw inherently makes it harder to get good accuracy. A full size saw is also much more stable, easier to upgrade, more feasible to fix in the event of a failure, and more compatible with standard accessories. I understand that you're facing space constraints, so you may not have the option of a full size saw, but if at all possible, there's really a huge difference IMO.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Saws/la3mtam_zpssv566qiu.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/Saws/dewalt-saw-operators-view-1_zpsxhdmo6zt.jpg

[Lucas Hurt]

Scott,
Thanks very much for your input. The limited "throat" distance of the jobsite saws was a concern and your reply indicates that it was appropriate. It seems to make room for the riving knife, the blade is moved closer to the front of the table without increasing the depth at all. Many of the European style table saws are deeper than they are wide. I guess these types are saws are meant more specifically for ripping, but I've been borrowing an older contractor saw without wings which looks like Scott's top picture but without the wings. It just makes for a very deep footprint with the motor hanging off the back. I've never seen an infeed table for a portable jobsight saw, but one that folded up would be pretty handy.

The responses have all been great. What I really want is a small footprint hybrid saw but the truth is without increasing the space I have to work in, that is just not a feasible option. I've seen Norms videos about table saw use, but perhaps I'll rewatch them. Is there something similar for track saws? I see so many youtube wood workers using a table saw, but not many using a track saw.

There certainly isn't a perfect option for me at the moment. Well the Erika would be sweet but I can't justify the expense!

I'll keep trying to get my borrowed saw dialed in. That will be a good learning experience and should help be make a better decision.

[Jim Becker]

My advise is always and remains to buy the best table saw (or any other tool) you can afford...it's not your "first" table saw...it's "your table saw" and quality counts for a lot for both precision and safety.

[James White]

How important is moving it to the outdoors? Perhaps those tasks can be done with a circular saw or cheep portable table saw. If it is not a deal breaker than Ridgid Contractor saws have a great reputation for bang for the buck. You may be able to find one on the used market for $300 to $400. I have seen a lot of votes for a track saw. But in my opinion I would never give up my table saw for one. Despite having owned one for many years. I may even upgrade to the bigger Festool track saw for its 2-1/8" depth of cut. But that is for breaking down large stock. I just find it too awkward for run of the mill tasks. Especially for projects like small boxes where dados, box joints and precise miters are important.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-13-Amp-10-in-Professional-Cast-Iron-Table-Saw-R4512/202500206

James

[Lucas Hurt]

Getting down to a final decision. Basically a choice between a new Delta 36-725 for $600, and four used options,
a BT3000 for $150, (http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/tls/5815047660.html)
good condition Craftsman 113 for $200, (http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/tls/5860088894.html) not the actual saw
and a Delta 36-650 contractor saw for $225.(http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/tls/5854038656.html)

The Bt3000 has the smallest footprint. The delta hybrid seems pretty solid and doesn't have the big motor hanging off the back which I like. Is the craftsman with a fence upgrade comparable to the new Delta, or is that just silly talk?

Thanks for your patience, I realize that at this point it's really up to me to make a decision.

If you can offer any advice comparing the two Deltas, that might be helpful. Also, would the delta contractor saw be much better than the craftsman, my gut says yes.

Update: delta contractor saw dropped price to $200 to match the craftsman. Having a hard time justifying 400 extra for the newer delta. So 90% sure I'll go with the user delta saw.

[Michael Zerance]

I have no experience with any of those saws but I never liked the idea of the open webbing in the extension wings like the Craftsman has.

If those were my choices, I'd be all over that Delta for $200.

[Greg Peterson]

I have experience with the BT3000 and the Craftsman.

I would take the BT3000 over the Craftsman.
More portable, pretty decent dust collection, riving knife, accurate and smaller footprint.

The Craftsman will throw dust everywhere, will require an aftermarket fence, the motor hanging out the back takes up a lot of room and if the belt guard is missing poses a safety risk And because of the way it's designed, you will find trying to make any cuts off 90 degrees very challenging.

Moving the blade off 90 degrees essentially "twists" the trunnion. At 90 degrees, you can easily set the blade parellel to the fence. But once you start tilting the blade, the back side of the blade starts to pull away from the fence. Or maybe it pulls in closer to the fence, I can't remember. Regardless, the cutting plane loses parallel as you move it off 90 degrees.

Finally, that Craftsman weighs a lot. It's portable in the sense that two or more people can relocate it. But it is not portable by contemporary standards. Not to mention if you move it (as in carry it, transport it....) you'll probably want to recalibrate the tool.

[Jim Dwight]

I would also go with the Ryobi (and I did). I kind of like the look of the web top of the Craftsman but I've never used one and I might not like it if I had it. I don't like the sheet metal side tables of the used Delta but you could replace them with melamine.

There used to be a website for the Ryobi saws and there still kind of is but it doesn't get the traffic it used to get. It was BT3Central and is now The Sawdust Zone. If you want information on that saw, it is a good source. That BT3000 is essentially the same as my BT3100 except for cosmetic things and the shims. You can change the BT3000 shims to the BT3100 style for not a lot of money. But if you keep the BT3000 ones lubricated, it should be OK. The shims separate the carrier for the arbor from the stationary part of the saw (two cast aluminum pieces from each other). The 3000 was more expensive than the 3100, I think initially they were about $700. Things I like about it include:

The rip fence moves very easily, locks front and back, is easy to adjust, and stays adjusted. (The other saws you are looking at might have a good fence but it would be the deciding factor between them for me - a saw that you have to check all the time is a hassle)

Blade has very little runout. It is belt driven with 3.5 inches rip capacity and can take a full 13/16 dado stack (but 6 inch, not an 8 inch).

Dust collection. Most of the dust comes out the 2.5 inch port on the back. I connect my shop vacuum to it and rarely have to clean out under it.


Easy to make zero clearance throat plates for.

Good riving knife setup. It isn't a little lever like the newest saws but it is just two nuts to remove and replace.

Good functioning micropositioner for the fence. I don't know if you can still get them but they are handy, especially for cutting tenons.

It is just an accurate little saw with adequate power. Good choice if you are space challenged.

[Lucas Hurt]

Well, I have the Delta contractor saw in my basement. Thanks for the positive suggestions for the BT3000. I really wanted something more substantial. With the contractor saw, I've got a decent base to learn from. I'll keep the BT3000 in mind if I ever decide that I'd rather have the space back.

Here are some pictures as a thank you to those who helped out:
Actually, I can't get the pictures attached, but my computer is acting a little funny so the trouble is probably on my end. Maybe tomorrow.

[Jim Becker]

Lucas, I think that was a good decision to go with the contractor's style saw. It's a bit heavier and outside of efficiently cutting "really, really thick" material, pretty much as capable as a cabinet saw. It will be a good "heart" of your shop for a long time.

[Lucas Hurt]

I think I figured out the pictures. Needed to resize them first.
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Very happy with first cut today. The blade run-out is less than 2 thousandths. The table top has a bump near the back of the throat plate cut-out. A straight-edge across the back of the table shows a gap of about 0.016 on one side. Otherwise the table seems really flat. I'm not sure whether to sand that out or not worry about it. I haven't put the wings on, actually the fence rails aren't even torqued down tight yet.

I made a zero clearance insert and used the router attachment for my dremel for the first time to make recesses for the feet (see third picture). Next I need shim the insert with either set screws or some other method to bring it nice and flush with the top.

I'm already thinking of a mobile base so I can put the saw against the wall when not in use. I also thought of a way to put the motor under the table top at least for none beveled cuts. The other thought I have is to make some additional bracing for the sheet metal cabinet.

After shimming the aluminum extrusion to the t-shaped fence casting, I'm still getting quite a bit of deflection at the loose end, around 10-15 thousandths with fairly low pressure. I'm not sure if adding face plates to both sides of the fence would affect this or even if the flex is in the extrusion or somewhere else. I'll figure it out eventually.

Anyway, quite happy with the quality of everything so far. There is a mount for a splitter that will tilt with the blade but it didn't come with the saw, so that's one more thing on the list. Actually, that should probably be first on the list.

[David Sloan]

I have had a Ryobi BT 3100 for 25 years. It is an amazing little saw and has served me well. While I have upgraded most of my tools over the years the Ryobi still works well for my needs. The fence is remarkably good, the sliding table is nice and I have a heavy router mounted in it. I have seen them on Craigslist for very little money. I wish Ryobi would start making it again. The 3100 is way better than the current Ryobi benchtop saw (or the Dewalt for that matter). I would also agree that having a good bandsaw (I have the Laguna 1412) is a great help if you are making boxes, model boats and toys. Good luck!