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dirk martin
10-12-2016, 3:15 PM
My brotherinlaw is going to be getting a Woodmizer LT30, and taking about 70 mature red and white oak out of his woods.
He'd like to sell the green lumber.

Anyone now if there's a market for green lumber, and if so, where I can find the typical prices being paid?
Location is north-central WI

Mark Bolton
10-12-2016, 3:33 PM
Around here green oak is about 450/MBF. White oak tends to be bushy. Figuring 240BF per tree average.. 70 trees $7500 rough guess. Your area may vary wildly on price.

Danny Hamsley
10-12-2016, 3:56 PM
There is a wholesale market for green hardwood lumber, but a guy with a Woodmizer LT30 cutting a one-time limited supply of lumber will not be able to break into that market and attract any buyers. You could sell it green to local woodworkers, but it would have to be cheap as most woodworkers do not have the means to take green oak lumber and dry it in a quality way successfully. Green oak lumber is just not worth very much. Especially the lower grades.

eugene thomas
10-12-2016, 5:13 PM
It's not to hard to find kilns that dry wood in northern wi. But ya would have to sell cheap to make worth buyers time.

John K Jordan
10-12-2016, 6:17 PM
My brotherinlaw is going to be getting a Woodmizer LT30, and taking about 70 mature red and white oak out of his woods.
He'd like to sell the green lumber. Anyone now if there's a market for green lumber, and if so, where I can find the typical prices being paid?
Location is north-central WI

I have a Woodmizer behind my barn. It's great for personal use but I would hate to have to try to make money from it. For me it's better to think of it as a hobby.

If you need lumber yourself you can sometimes cut trees for others on "shares" - that can get you boards of species you do not have access to. One typical deal is "you haul the logs, you help saw, we split the wood."

BTW, a few years ago I bought random width green red oak here in TN at 30 cents a board foot and used it for siding on farm buildings. I don't know what it's going for now.

One relative here looked at some of our mature trees and suggested selling them for veneer could be profitable. I never checked into it since I'd rather have the trees. Your brother-in-law might inquire about that if he has large, very high quality trees.

JKJ

Dave Lehnert
10-12-2016, 8:05 PM
There is a forum here on SMC for Sawmills.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?68-Sawmills-and-Kiln-Drying

dirk martin
10-12-2016, 9:16 PM
Where's the best place to find buyers for large amounts of green lumber?
I spoke with a Woodmizer salesman at a local show, and he said my local woodmizer dealer could give me a mile long list of green lumber buyers.
Think he was telling the truth?

John K Jordan
10-12-2016, 11:45 PM
Where's the best place to find buyers for large amounts of green lumber?
I spoke with a Woodmizer salesman at a local show, and he said my local woodmizer dealer could give me a mile long list of green lumber buyers.
Think he was telling the truth?

You can advertise on Woodfinder.

I have no doubt you can sell green lumber. The question I have is will it be worth the effort? Sawing is great fun but the whole process is a huge amount of work: felling trees, skidding, loading, hauling, unloading, mounting, and sawing logs, offloading, stacking, stickering (if air drying), and perhaps delivering and unloading lumber, and of course cleaning up the branches, slabs and sawdust. And dealing with the people. Things are easier if the mill is portable and your buyer comes into your woods with muscle and truck and you don't have to have a lumberyard to maintain inventory until it's sold.

There may be some investment too unless you already have the stuff. I use my tractor for skidding, my bobcat for heavy lifting and clearing/cutting access where needed, big trailers for hauling, forks for moving things around, and a few thousand dollars for miscellaneous things like safety equipment, chains and skidding tongs, cant hooks, extra chainsaws, bandsaw blades, and more. Unless the plan is to sell "under the table" don't forget business licenses, taxes, and of course, insurance. Payroll for helpers? Repairs? Collection agencies? Advertising costs? Losses, thefts, lawsuits? If the goal is to make a profit, can you saw and sell enough at high enough prices? Can you even sell enough to break even?

The sawmills around here that seem to be making money are pretty big operations. The small guys seem to do it more for fun.

I'm not trying to discourage but I think it's important to know the business before you start a business. There are several active logging and sawing forums on the internet that might be good to study.

I researched all this before I bought my sawmill. I decided I didn't want another full time job. But it is a wonderful and very rewarding hobby for me. It's almost magic to watch what is revealed inside the log.

BTW, a great little book to read is The Good Woodcutters Guide.

JKJ

dirk martin
10-13-2016, 2:21 AM
We'll have the local forestry dept. mark the trees to be taken out.
We'll have a professional logger do the felling, and stack all logs on a landing.
We have the needed tractors and front end loaders to move logs if needed.

We've got the help for tailing, and stacking, and running the saw.
I'm just wondering where one finds large buyers of green lumber....I'm not looking for hobbiest's that are after 100bf here and there....
At this point, I'm not interested in stickering, and kiln drying the lumber.
I'd prefer to just keep sawing, and sell the lumber green, for quicker cash turnaround.

John K Jordan
10-13-2016, 9:07 AM
We'll have...
I'm just wondering where one finds large buyers of green lumber.

You've explained your situation better now. It sounds like you have everything but the market lined up.

This resource is widely used by both companies and individuals to locate wood products, including green lumber:
http://www.woodfinder.com/

Or perhaps hire a broker. Good luck.

Mark Bolton
10-13-2016, 10:18 AM
At that point, it would be easy to quantify the viability as soon as you find some pricing per MBF on truck load quantities of dead stacked green material. I'd think your best bet would be to contact a broker or find your nearest large scale drying operation and contact them directly. The killer is 70 trees isnt really a lot in the wholesale market and I would fear that wholesale buyers will hit you hard fearing quality of sawing and grading issues. Most of the buyers we purchase large quantities of KD material from shy away from small sawing operations fearing they will saw anything they can get on the mill into boards and result in mixed packs with decent wood and boards from heavily crook'd, or twisted, trees, not sawing the tension out of the material, and so on. They have well-established relationships with sawyers and mills who feed them but it's surely worth a shot.

John's response and experience above is much the same as my own. When you factor in 3-4 guys, machine and mill time, loading and hauling, and now talking about paying a logger to cut and skid, its hard to imagine there will be much left over but who knows. It'll definitely be fun though.

John K Jordan
10-13-2016, 4:30 PM
At that point, it would be easy to quantify the viability as soon as you find some pricing per MBF...

The WoodFinder site I mentioned before (no personal connection) may be a good place to check prices on green lumber. Click on "Green" and search and it will give list by state. Even if a supplier does not list green he may give green prices over the phone.

I looked at just one entry, and that because I'm familiar with this guy and his operation and I've bought from him in the past. He has some large buildings full of drying and dry lumber and the lat time I was there huge piles of logs waiting to be sawn. His sawmill was incredible. This guy is in TN which may be different from other areas. Most of his inventory is dry; green would be cheaper.

OUR CURRENT INVENTORY:
Ash 4/4 & 8/4, air dried $1.00/BF, kiln dried $1.50.
Eastern Red Cedar Under 10-in. wide, $.80/BF, 10 in. and wider, $1.00/BF select @ $2.00/BF.
Cherry mill run, air dried $1.50/BF; kiln dried $2.00/BF.
Eastern Yellow Pine $.50/BF; 12" and wider $1.00/BF.
Poplar air dried $.50/BF, kiln dried $1.00; 12" and wider air dried $1.00, kiln dried $1.50/BF.
Red Oak 4/4 and 8/4, #2, $.50/BF; #1, $.90/BF; quartersawn, $1.50/BF.
All #1 White Oak same as Red Oak.
Eastern Sugar Maple 4/4, air dried $1.00/BF;
Black Walnut air dried $2.00, KD $2.50.
Pawlonia Wild-grown 4/4, $4.00/BF.
SASAFRAS GREEN 4/4 $3.50 KD $4.00 BF.

Looking at this makes me want to go buy some Ash before all of it is gone. I don't have any Ash trees on my property. I am surprised the price of Sassafras is that much higher than cherry or walnut. I recently dropped a large standing dead sassafras, about 18" at the base, great wood but not always easy to find.

JKJ

AL Ursich
10-13-2016, 6:41 PM
Great Thread... :)

dirk martin
10-13-2016, 10:23 PM
Great Thread... :)

Couldn't agree more.
So glad I started it.
Lots of great info here.
Thanks gang.

dirk martin
10-13-2016, 10:26 PM
These guys on Woodfinder sell green lumber, right? They don't buy it....right?

dirk martin
10-13-2016, 10:32 PM
The WoodFinder site I mentioned before (no personal connection) may be a good place to check prices on green lumber. Click on "Green" and search and it will give list by state. Even if a supplier does not list green he may give green prices over the phone.

I looked at just one entry, and that because I'm familiar with this guy and his operation and I've bought from him in the past. He has some large buildings full of drying and dry lumber and the lat time I was there huge piles of logs waiting to be sawn. His sawmill was incredible. This guy is in TN which may be different from other areas. Most of his inventory is dry; green would be cheaper.

OUR CURRENT INVENTORY:
Ash 4/4 & 8/4, air dried $1.00/BF, kiln dried $1.50.
Eastern Red Cedar Under 10-in. wide, $.80/BF, 10 in. and wider, $1.00/BF select @ $2.00/BF.
Cherry mill run, air dried $1.50/BF; kiln dried $2.00/BF.
Eastern Yellow Pine $.50/BF; 12" and wider $1.00/BF.
Poplar air dried $.50/BF, kiln dried $1.00; 12" and wider air dried $1.00, kiln dried $1.50/BF.
Red Oak 4/4 and 8/4, #2, $.50/BF; #1, $.90/BF; quartersawn, $1.50/BF.
All #1 White Oak same as Red Oak.
Eastern Sugar Maple 4/4, air dried $1.00/BF;
Black Walnut air dried $2.00, KD $2.50.
Pawlonia Wild-grown 4/4, $4.00/BF.
SASAFRAS GREEN 4/4 $3.50 KD $4.00 BF.

Looking at this makes me want to go buy some Ash before all of it is gone. I don't have any Ash trees on my property. I am surprised the price of Sassafras is that much higher than cherry or walnut. I recently dropped a large standing dead sassafras, about 18" at the base, great wood but not always easy to find.

JKJ


I don't know where on earth you found this, on Woodfinder.
I can't seem to find pricing on anything, anywhere up there....

John K Jordan
10-13-2016, 11:26 PM
I don't know where on earth you found this, on Woodfinder.
I can't seem to find pricing on anything, anywhere up there....

I went to Woodfinder, http://www.woodfinder.com/
Clicked on "Green Lumber", clicked Search

I found MZ Enterprises under TN:
http://www.woodfinder.com/listings/001341.php

Another place near me I've bought from that ONLY sells green lumber is Oak Ridge Hardwoods, Inc. (865) 435-0054
This is a HUGE operation, amazing to watch the big vertical band mill sawing, then edgers, trimmers, grading, mulch chipping, etc. They probably have 25 guys working full time. Unless they've changed I don't think they keep inventory except for piles of hundreds of logs - they saw, sort, and ship. I've bought green oak for farm use from them by hand loading my trailer with the grade I wanted on a day they were sawing oak. I've also sold oak logs to them before I got my own sawmill. There is continuous traffic of trucks delivering logs and lumber leaving by tractor trailer load. A big circular conveyor system feeds a constant stream of logs to the blade. At a board every few seconds I'm guessing this operation might saw and sell 70 oak trees in one day!

I'm sure they will quote prices over the phone.

JKJ

dirk martin
10-14-2016, 3:31 AM
Wow....would love to see that operation.
Thanks John.

Mark Bolton
10-14-2016, 12:16 PM
Looking at this makes me want to go buy some Ash before all of it is gone. I don't have any Ash trees on my property. I am surprised the price of Sassafras is that much higher than cherry or walnut. I recently dropped a large standing dead sassafras, about 18" at the base, great wood but not always easy to find.

JKJ

Too bad your not closer. Ive got 115 acres and been trying to get all the ash down as its all deader than 4 o'clock. Ive probably got about 20MBF on the skidway already. Some monster 40" butt logs. The stuff that has been dead a while is a challenge to get on the ground without busting but every time I think Im getting close I find dozens more trees lol. Ill never get it all out.

John K Jordan
10-14-2016, 2:23 PM
Too bad your not closer. Ive got 115 acres and been trying to get all the ash down as its all deader than 4 o'clock. Ive probably got about 20MBF on the skidway already. Some monster 40" butt logs. The stuff that has been dead a while is a challenge to get on the ground without busting but every time I think Im getting close I find dozens more trees lol. Ill never get it all out.

Are you going to saw and kiln dry? If so I might be talked into driving up for a trailer load. (Is it legal to haul ash lumber from state to state if not kiln dried?)

JKJ

Mark Bolton
10-14-2016, 4:45 PM
Im going to saw all I can. I have the skidway loaded up with Ash and Cherry right now. I had a wierd storm blow through that uprooted almost all my cherry trees. Trying to get them out before they spoil. Perhaps you could haul back cants or something. Sucks to haul green wood (pay to haul water).

Mark Bolton
10-14-2016, 4:49 PM
PS. I dont think the transportation is an issue especially if its sawn. The borer lives in the Cambium layer under the bark. I suppose any live edge stuff would be suspect but I doubt it.

Dave Fritz
10-16-2016, 10:25 AM
Just a thought on the white oak. Wonder if it might not have more value if it's quarter sawn?

I have a friend that has a saw like that and he saws wood for others, in fact he does mine. I don't think that's his primary source of income however. Any sawyers I know do custom work and do it part time.

Bradley Gray
10-16-2016, 10:56 AM
Great thread. I buy green oak for .25 in 700 BF units here in Southern Ohio.

I don't think anyone has mentioned yet the speed with which green lumber will stain and grow mold when stacked w/o stickers.

When i buy green wood I try to get it the day it is sawn and make stacking with sticks a high priority to avoid degrade.

John K Jordan
10-17-2016, 12:04 AM
Just a thought on the white oak. Wonder if it might not have more value if it's quarter sawn?


The sawmill I mentioned in east TN does get more for quartersawn, white or red: 4/4 and 8/4, #2, $.50/BF; #1, $.90/BF; quartersawn, $1.50/BF.

Phillip Mitchell
10-19-2016, 1:56 AM
I agree with a lot of what has been discussed so far. Bradley is exactly right about green lumber staining and molding quickly if not stickered.

I have a couple years experience trying to make a living from, among other forestry-related endeavors, selective harvest logging and running a portable band mill and selling lumber (green and dried.) I don't currently do this anymore as I couldn't find a way, in my situation and limited amount of capital, to keep things going and be profitable. I was lucky to break even sometimes. There is a reason that 98% of all profitable sawmills are quite large in scale and output. It's a matter of scale and it's really tough to make a profit as a small-time saw miller, especially if you're just getting into it and climbing the learning curve of all that has to do with quality sawing.

The real question I see here is: Are you expecting/needing to profit from this venture or is this just for fun and experience? Also, is the LT30 a hydraulic or manual mill? That will make an enormous difference in viability of any profit.

If you are trying to profit, I would suggest bypassing the time and effort of sawing the oak yourself and just selling the logs to a mill / letting the logger buy the stand. At the relatively low price that oak (especially green) usually goes for, I just don't see any way to break even from this. What/how are you paying the logger to fell the trees? What is the average size of the trees, straight logs, limbs and branches how far up, etc? This will all factor into the potential quality of your lumber and how much of it will be worth sawing/selling.

The only way I know to actually profit from a portable band mill is to travel to other folks property (where there is a load of logs already neatly decked and waiting on you) and saw for them either at a bd/ft price if it's standard logs and lumber dimensions, or by the hour to do custom sawing for situations where you can't just crank out 2000 bd ft + a day. A well maintained, hydraulic mill and an experienced and keen operator are crucial to the success of this. There are a lot of costs that add up when running a band mill all day and it's pretty easy to loose money by not producing enough lumber / charging enough to cover costs.

I don't mean to discourage you and I apologize if you already know some of these points, but I just felt compelled to pass along some of the things I've learned from trying it for a while. If this is just for fun, then don't worry too much about what I stated above, but it's still good info to keep in your head as it costs money to operate the mill and saw lumber either way.

James White
10-20-2016, 8:32 AM
Those prices in TN are truly amazing. Things are a bit different up here in CT. See the link below for a local retailer. But I also know that loggers are getting $650MBF for whatever hardwoods they put on the truck. In other words it can be hickory and ash or cherry and maple and they still get the $650.
Scroll down to the Walnut for some sticker shock!

http://parkervillewoodproducts.com/domestic-hardwood-sizing-and-pricing/

James


OUR CURRENT INVENTORY:
Ash 4/4 & 8/4, air dried $1.00/BF, kiln dried $1.50.
Eastern Red Cedar Under 10-in. wide, $.80/BF, 10 in. and wider, $1.00/BF select @ $2.00/BF.
Cherry mill run, air dried $1.50/BF; kiln dried $2.00/BF.
Eastern Yellow Pine $.50/BF; 12" and wider $1.00/BF.
Poplar air dried $.50/BF, kiln dried $1.00; 12" and wider air dried $1.00, kiln dried $1.50/BF.
Red Oak 4/4 and 8/4, #2, $.50/BF; #1, $.90/BF; quartersawn, $1.50/BF.
All #1 White Oak same as Red Oak.
Eastern Sugar Maple 4/4, air dried $1.00/BF;
Black Walnut air dried $2.00, KD $2.50.
Pawlonia Wild-grown 4/4, $4.00/BF.
SASAFRAS GREEN 4/4 $3.50 KD $4.00 BF.
JKJ

Perry Hilbert Jr
10-26-2016, 6:51 AM
I think it depends on the old location location location. I live in a manufacturing area with some machinery makers. Small mills make their bucks selling components for skids and packing. Especially for oak. The local mill I deal with mostly does skid boards but does some cherry lumber for sale. Oak fence boards for horsey folks and some custom beams for folks repairing old farm houses. There is a guy that has a portable mill that will come to your premises and custom cut. I forget what he gets per hour and blade. My neighbor had him saw some giant poplars into boards and slabs. You really need two extra hands to carry and stack the cut lumber while the miller operates the saw. If I were just cutting a few dozen trees, I'd hire the miller to come cut the wood rather than buy the mill. I had an idea about having a mill cut some large poplar or pine beams and cutting them into giant lincoln logs to make a small 10 x 12 cabin. Something with standard size interchangeable joints so it could be taken apart and moved. I have the large poplars. I would just hire the guy to come and cut the beams.