Need advise on pricing Northfield jointer. [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

David Kumm

10-04-2016, 11:41 PM

If jointer was new in 2001 and seen little use he might get close. Most Northfields will go in the 3-5K range but most are older and three phase. 12" is a little small for many iron guys as 16" is preferable but because they are still in business, Northfield does command a premium. There really is no comparable in build for less than 15K now. Their cored tables and cast iron base are among the best. I'd prefer a 5" diameter Tersa to their 4.25" straight knife but that is personal to me rather than correct. Other machines might serve the purpose for less but the cost to build a machine like that is expensive. It will be sold again in 50 years, long after the new Euro stuff is long gone. ( I like the Euro stuff but it is no longer built for generations, more like a couple of decades). Dave

mreza Salav

10-04-2016, 11:58 PM

that is very close to the price of a new Felder A941 (16" jointer). List price in Canada is $10k CAD (noting that $1US is about $1.3CAD now).

David Kumm

10-05-2016, 12:40 AM

Northfield Heavy jointer new is 18K. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-05-2016, 7:58 AM

Thank you everyone for the advice thus far.
The seller's has contacted me and won't go lower than $7500.00. The jointer is still on original shipping crate and appears in the pic to be in excellent condition with very little use. There is hardly any paint worn off the guard for the cutter head.
It has a single phase belt driven motor.
Looks like I have a decision to make. If anyone else has input I'm all ears. Is there any specific questions I should be asking? The machine is about 8 hour drive from me.

David Kumm

10-05-2016, 8:28 AM

You can call Jeff at Northfield and get info from him to verify. I believe they spec their tables to .003 from end to end across the 96" length but you could check. Weight should be in the 2000 lb range and motor should be 3 or 5 hp. Head will be three or four knife. Dave

peter gagliardi

10-05-2016, 8:38 AM

Dave pretty much nailed it. An almost new Northfield could command close to that price if only comparing to new machines.
However, as was said, you can get much more machine- 16-20" width for same or less money with a little looking.
If you ever come across an older cast iron Bauerle or Martin, or just about any other German made machine, it would be a 20" machine, longer tables generally, and excellent build quality. And, they typically run $4-6k used.
Or, look into older US cast iron machines- American, Yates-American, Porter, and let's not forget Frank Clement who originally designed and patented the 3 toed wedgebed design that Northfield still uses to this day, that can typically be had for $500-$2000.00 in a 16" size or larger pretty much all day long.

Peter Kelly

10-05-2016, 10:08 AM

It has a single phase belt driven motor.Single phase machines in that class and quality of build are relatively infrequent. If you don't already have three phase power, not needing to set up a phase converter or VFD should factor into cost.

Machine looks super nice in the photo. $7,500 is a lot but doesn't seem out of line for a basically new condition Northfield.

Erik Loza

10-05-2016, 10:24 AM

Cody Armstrong

10-05-2016, 1:53 PM

Points well taken from everyone. On going the used machinery route I wouldn't be looking at this particular machine if it were not in excellent condition as it appears to be. Although I have been using an 8" Yates American for years that I bought used. Were I'm located is basically a dead zone for buying used machinery. So most likely something would have to be shipped and I would be making a choice from pictures and the honesty of the seller. I'm very concerned about buying an antique(without testing/using it first) and something not being right with the machine. Though I do know the older iron is/was built to last several lifetimes. I don't want something that has worn out parts I have to fix or work on or worse that are obsolete.

Eric kind of hit on it. I do want a Northfield for two reasons, 1. I like old iron but this is new iron without the headache or the chance your taking when buying from pictures/not tested. 2. The quality in build is there no question.

I see what you guys are saying about finding a wider jointer for less money. But it starts turning into a space issue and also falls back on buying an older machine.

So in my case the pro's to buying this machine are: 1. single owner, very little use/excellent condition, 5 hp motor 2. I can go look and test it although an 8 hour drive. I had a lengthy convo with the owner and what I gather over the phone he's the perfectionist type. He even said he'd have to replace the safety/warning decals(extras he has from Northfield) because he told Northfield he would if he ever sold it.(He took them off because he didn't like seeing them).

Cons: 1. The price is not a steal or a deal(but does seem fair for the condition). 2. Has knives and not helical head.(Eric, thank you for pointing out I have the option to change the head)

I should be getting more pics from the owner today. If I can I will post them.

Bill Adamsen

10-05-2016, 2:21 PM

Within that price range you have so many options. For me, twelve inches would be too small. There are so many "roughly comparable" American made sixteen to twenty-four inch - even a patternmakers. The risks of buying used equipment can be minimized by careful review and purchasing from a reputable firm. Peter G (who commentedd here as well) has restored several large American made jointers and would be another good person to reach out to for comparative advice.

Martin Wasner

10-05-2016, 2:57 PM

If you want it. Buy it. It looks to be as close to new as you can get without out ordering an actual new one. I agree with you, it's not a deal and he's not asking too much, it's likely a fair price. He needs more pictures on ebay though.

There was a 12" HD for sale that looked just mint on the local craigslist a while back. I have absolutely nowhere but my living room to put it, but I wish I would've bought it. $5k, and less than an hour away.

Honestly, what's the ding dong difference between having a link or hotlink versus posting the item number? Cut and paste vs. clicking? That's a ridiculous

Andrew Hughes

10-05-2016, 3:07 PM

One more thing I would like to point out is.Your electrical service may not be up to starting a motor larger than 5hp.The bigger heads and bigger motors can push it.
I had to learn this the hard way.Each upgrade Edison did to my feed made a difference.
I was just barely getting by three years ago.
Everything good now.I can start looking at a bigger Rpc if I want.

I say get the Northfield and make your time in the shop a pleasure.

Aj

Cody Armstrong

10-05-2016, 3:21 PM

Ya'll aren't making this an easy decision but I'm certainly listening to everyone's advice.

Andrew, I can do a 3 phase 7.5 horse no problem. 200 amp service and 30 horse RPC.
Would rather have the jointer single phase though. It's nice to quickly joint a board without having to turn on the extra power.

Andrew Hughes

10-05-2016, 4:24 PM

Say what you have the opportunity to buy a like new Northfield jointer.
And all the juice you need to make it purr.
I totally hate you now.:p

Aj

David Kumm

10-05-2016, 4:39 PM

While I have said I would prefer a Tersa head, it is not that big of a deal on a jointer. I run a standard knife Porter and changing knives once or twice a year is a 30 minute job if I'm having a bad day. Fairly frequent now. Get either two Oneway bases and indicators or two of Brian Lambs ( lambtoolworks.com ) even nicer ones. Makes blade changing easy and traditional knives sharpened by someone who knows how for your cutterhead and angle of cut will give a great finish and last longer than tersa. I've no desire for a carbide spiral on a jointer- too easy to nick inserts and no need for a finished surface. You will be surprised at how smooth the head cuts with all that cast iron to dampen vibration. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-05-2016, 5:05 PM

Sorry Andrew. :)

Yea David I mainly use a jointer for what it's intended for, flattening and straitening. Goes to the planer or wide belt after that. Thanks for enforcing what I already know. With sharp knives I'm more than happy with the finish.
Thank you for the suggestions on knife setup.

I've been looking at older 16 and 24" because of the suggestions in this thread and from what I see without searching for hours is unless I buy a newer machine it will be tough to find a larger jointer with a single phase motor?
I really don't have the room for the older style 16" and up. As it is adding the 12" will make my space tight. It may be my best option to go with the 12" Northfield. It's about 34 3/4" at widest point.
Still open to any and all suggestions though. I'm willing to look at a Euro style if anyone would like to suggest a model. Without much research I think they're narrower but I may be wrong.

David Kumm

10-05-2016, 5:20 PM

The fence design can be what takes up room. Some fences have a round bar that sticks out the back while the old American jointers have fences that require you to move into holes drilled in the table to move all the way. Not a big deal unless in production and does take up less room. Belt drive also takes less space than direct drive which is what most old American made jointers will be. I would not want single phase but if it works for you, grab the NF. My Porter and Oliver both have guards that tip out of the way and that is handy. Allows for double wide jointing when needed. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-05-2016, 6:03 PM

These are the pics I received from the seller.

345249345250345251

David Kumm

10-05-2016, 7:29 PM

You will find the heavy fence is very nice to use. I'd probably take the back of the fence guard off to gain some room to the wall. Jointer looks about as pristine as they come. The oneway with the dial is also the way I set the infeed rather than using the built in. 1/32" 99% of the time. Good news is you will get as high a resale price on this jointer as any used out there so overpaying isn't a huge issue.345252 Here is a jointer I never seem to get around to selling but about a 3K machine and makes flat boards. Dave

Bruce Page

10-05-2016, 7:46 PM

That's a sweet machine Cody, they don't come much nicer.

Cody Armstrong

10-05-2016, 8:06 PM

David what size is the Oliver you have there? It's a beauty!

Jay Houghton

10-05-2016, 8:38 PM

I just sold my Jet 12" jointer with a brand new v-shear head in it. This particular jointer is identical to the Powermatic, Delta's and others. Very long tables, 3hp single phase, parallelogram tables, etc. Sold it for $2,000 and I thought that was fair. I realize Northfield is a fantastic machine, but I can think of a lot of other things to do with the money. On the other hand, money notwithstanding, sure, why not! What I now have is a MiniMax 16" planer/jointer machine with a Byrd head. Paid $3,500 for it.

Cody Armstrong

10-05-2016, 9:03 PM

Jay, others have suggested the same-a combo felder- but I'm just not interested in a combo machine. I have a 24" planer with helical head.

Larry Copas

10-05-2016, 9:33 PM

I bought a near basket case Northfield 12”. Completely restored it to the very last bolt. All new bearings, paint, knives, decals, and fabricated a modern dust collection system for it. I was thoroughly impressed with the machine except for one problem.

345258

In my picture you can see my other 12” jointer. It was actually built by Griggio and re-badged Laguna. It came with a Teresa head. To test performance I would face plane figured wood on one machine than using the same board plane it on the other machine. The Teresa head had less tearout/chipping than the Northfield head. I do work a lot of figured wood. My Northfield had the direct drive motor while the one you are considering looks to be a belt drive. I don't know if there is a difference in cut quality between the two.

I came up with a game plan to sell the Griggio and use the proceeds to equip the Northfield with a Byrd Shelix. I put the Griggio on craigslist and couldn't sell it for a reasonable price. There was little interest in it, I guess because it is not a common machine.

Turned around and sold the Northfield on craigslist in about a week for $2,000.

In retrospect, I now wish I had coughed up the cash and got the Byrd head for the Northfield and kept it. While my Griggio is no slouch, the Northfield would have been outstanding with a Byrd.

Richard Young

10-05-2016, 9:39 PM

Please excuse a dumb question, but curious. Why are the tables on Northfield "cored"? What is the reason for it?

Jeff Bartley

10-05-2016, 9:43 PM

Cody,
There's a direct drive 12HD on woodweb right now for $3750 with an offer for a $1500 Byrd head installed, it's a '73. It's located in PA, being sold by Bill Kerfoot (he's a used machinery dealer).
I'll second the recommendation to call Jeff at Northfield, he can give you the history of the machines.
Hope this doesn't muddy your water any more!

Cody Armstrong

10-05-2016, 9:43 PM

Larry that's saying a lot to me. The restoration is beautiful. Just looking at the two machines side by side, for me it would be an easy choice to make.

Jeff Duncan

10-05-2016, 9:58 PM

Can't help you much with making a decision or pricing, but I'll throw this out there anyway....think about how much you NEED the machine. If you really need it for the work you do and the price seems fair to you then it's an easy decision. If on the other hand it's not a real need, think about maybe waiting a bit and see what happens. My take is e-bay has turned into a place where guys price equipment at many times what it's worth to see if they can find someone to bite. Not saying this about the Northfield....those are nice machines. Just that in general expensive machines seem to have the tendency to sit....and sit.....and sit. A guy near me had a Northfield shaper listed for $2k for at least 2 years, maybe more. Don't know if he ever did sell it, but it was available for a good long time. And sometimes having a machine sitting there for a good long time can make an owner reconsider the bottom line of what they're willing to accept.

Of course the risk is someone else comes along willing to spend the $8k....so you have to decide if it's worth it to you to spend that kind of cabbage? Myself, I'm in the buy em' used camp. I try to buy the best quality I can at the best price I can. That way if/when I need to sell it I hopefully get back close to what I spent on it;)

good luck,
JeffD

John Sincerbeaux

10-05-2016, 10:32 PM

Just received a 16" Northfield jointer yesterday. Been looking for about 6 weeks. I looked at the one you are referencing here. Also spoke with the owner. My conclusions: great guy, great machine but... The price is definitely premium. I wanted a "16, a 3 phase, and a direct drive.
I think the only reason to buy a belt drive is if you don't have 3 phase. And that is from Jeff at Northfield.
My jointer has been completely restored, beautifully repainted with auto paint and clear coated. The tables are beautiful.
The front foot has a small chunk missing so I'll be replacing the foot.
mine:
5hp DDM
4 straight knife
3 phase.
$4000
bought it sight unseen. Owner sent me a few video walk around clips and running clips.

If the one you're looking at was 16", dd, and 3 phase, it would be of been in my shop by now:)

Dan Friedrichs

10-05-2016, 10:53 PM

I think some of you are almost fetishizing the "big/old iron" aspect. If the tables are flat and the motor sufficiently large, everything else is luxury, and one of the first luxuries I'd want is a spiral cutterhead (or at least a Tersa head).

Felder does make jointers that aren't combo machines:
http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/products/jointer-planersjointersplaners.html

Mel Fulks

10-05-2016, 11:09 PM

I think the apeal of big vintage machines is not fanciful ,just practical. And sometimes you find an old machine close enough that even moving it is not too expensive.

David Kumm

10-05-2016, 11:39 PM

The cored tables were unique to the Northfield Heavy series but I can't give the science behind them. The cast iron is ribbed with a full bottom unlike most where the webbing shows. I do know they used a fine grain cast iron of Meehanite grading, well seasoned so once ground it didn't move. I think the bigger deal is the quality of grind Northfield and most high end jointers had and may still have. Many of the jointers sold now have standards of something like .008 for each table vs the .003 for both like the NF.

My old Oliver has been replaced by a 16 and 24" Porter and sits in storage. 1954. Tables have never been reground and while they have discoloration, they are flat.

A Tersa 120mm diameter head spinning at 4500-5000 rpm will generally leave a better finish than a three knife direct drive spinning at 3450 rpm. A properly sharpened and set regular knife at similar rpm should deliver the same finish as the Tersa. Maybe even better due to the mass of the knives and their ability to shed heat. The knives will last longer if sharpened correctly but Tersa is pretty sweet to swap. Griggio, SCM, SAC, Sicar are pretty equal. The eastern Euro Fortis, Unitronix, EMA, Kirchfeld, etc machines are very similar to Martin in build and can be found in the same 3-5K range in decent shape.

I've got both modern steel ( within last 20 years ) and old iron ( 40-75 years old ). Until you use both you can't judge between them. All do their jobs but some have a special feel. I'd argue that newer is better for shapers but jointers, bandsaws, and table saws really benefit from the heavy cast iron build. Keep in mind you are comparing machines at the high end. Newer are more user friendly for sure but old have a feel that is hard to describe. My Porter with the ABEC 7 precision oil bath 6313 bearings has a sound and a feel that modern sealed standard stamped steel cage bearings just can't duplicate. Kind of like a high end car. Performs the same job as a beater but way more fun to use. Dave

John Sincerbeaux

10-06-2016, 12:22 AM

The cored tables were unique to the Northfield Heavy series but I can't give the science behind them. The cast iron is ribbed with a full bottom unlike most where the webbing shows. I do know they used a fine grain cast iron of Meehanite grading, well seasoned so once ground it didn't move. I think the bigger deal is the quality of grind Northfield and most high end jointers had and may still have. Many of the jointers sold now have standards of something like .008 for each table vs the .003 for both like the NF.

My old Oliver has been replaced by a 16 and 24" Porter and sits in storage. 1954. Tables have never been reground and while they have discoloration, they are flat.

A Tersa 120mm diameter head spinning at 4500-5000 (tel:4500-5000) rpm will generally leave a better finish than a three knife direct drive spinning at 3450 rpm. A properly sharpened and set regular knife at similar rpm should deliver the same finish as the Tersa. Maybe even better due to the mass of the knives and their ability to shed heat. The knives will last longer if sharpened correctly but Tersa is pretty sweet to swap. Griggio, SCM, SAC, Sicar are pretty equal. The eastern Euro Fortis, Unitronix, EMA, Kirchfeld, etc machines are very similar to Martin in build and can be found in the same 3-5K range in decent shape.

I've got both modern steel ( within last 20 years ) and old iron ( 40-75 years old ). Until you use both you can't judge between them. All do their jobs but some have a special feel. I'd argue that newer is better for shapers but jointers, bandsaws, and table saws really benefit from the heavy cast iron build. Keep in mind you are comparing machines at the high end. Newer are more user friendly for sure but old have a feel that is hard to describe. My Porter with the ABEC 7 precision oil bath 6313 bearings has a sound and a feel that modern sealed standard stamped steel cage bearings just can't duplicate. Kind of like a high end car. Performs the same job as a beater but way more fun to use. Dave

perfectly said Dave.
Here's pic of my latest "fetish"

David Kumm

10-06-2016, 12:31 AM

This would go with that color.345261345262 Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-06-2016, 8:25 AM

Everyone's advice and suggestions have been a big help and really made me think about what's my best decision.

I'm not 100% but I think it may be a good idea for me to go ahead and grab the 12" machine in discussion. It may be a little high in price but it is single phase and that's what I really need. My 4 circuit 3ph panel is full and I have to be careful as it is running a wide belt, 24" planer, table saw, and dust collector. It's fine if I'm working by myself- can't run all at the same time- but with a second person in the shop I have to be really careful. I don't plan to ever upgrade to a 450 amp service.

How often does a 12" HD Northfield with single phase motor in like new condition come up for sale?

Doug Ladendorf

10-06-2016, 8:45 AM

Cody, given that you have the spiral head planer, the straight knives on a jointer may not be an issue. This is a Northfield heavy 12" and I'm sure it would cost nearly twice that new. I have the L/M 12" like Larry's and even that has the "special" feel that Dave mentioned.

Larry, I'm sorry to hear you sold that absolutely beautiful restoration. You did some terrific work on that. Someone is the very fortunate beneficiary.

Doug

David Kumm

10-06-2016, 9:56 AM

only about 10% of old large jointers are belt drive and converting a DD to single phase is impractical so your odds of finding an old jointer in single phase is about the same as winning the lottery. Given your power issues, if you went three phase you would have to run off a single phase circuit with a vfd or add to your box. Both will cost you 250-500 so that is also a factor in pricing. Dave

John Sincerbeaux

10-06-2016, 10:11 AM

This would go with that color.345261345262 Dave

geez Dave...
what a tease!

Ironically, the guy I bought my jointer from is restoring a PK right now.
If and when you decide on selling your saw, let me know.
John.

Cody Armstrong

10-06-2016, 1:48 PM

So Dave it is doable to run a 16" older machine off a vfd with no problems? Can a 5 horse 3 phase jointer motor run of vfd if yes what size single phase breaker does it take to run a 3 or 5 horse?

David Kumm

10-06-2016, 2:25 PM

Cody Armstrong

10-06-2016, 4:49 PM

Well if that's the case I think I'm gonna listen to what everyone has been saying and hunt for a 16". Whew! I hate going down these rabbit holes but at least there's an exit hole with an answer at the end of the tunnel. :)

Should we open up another can of worms? What can you tell me about the 16" Porter 300 CM? I'm assuming I want a jointer with 4 knives and not 3.

David Kumm

10-06-2016, 5:49 PM

I have a 16" Porter 300 cm. That should be direct drive, 4 or 5 hp. If later model - late 50s- the fence tilt will be geared. Earlier you loosen bolts and tilt by hand, similar to Oliver. I am biased but think the 300 is one of the best jointers ever. Look hard at the tables. If in good condition you will see faint planing lines all across the width. If so the tables have original grind and likely are still flat. If the marks fade in the center, there is wear on the tables. Straight edge or good extruded level and feeler gauges to verify. Most Porters will be three knife, a few four. If running on a vfd, you can increase the hz to 70 and speed the head for those few times you want more cuts per inch- or slow the feed. Porter came with ABEC 5 phenolic caged precision bearings in an oil bath. Look to see the oil cups are still there and ask if the bearings have been swapped. If the seller says he changed to sealed, he swapped $250 each bearings for $50 each. that lowers the price some in my world. Most others prefer the sealed but most aren't anal about bearings like I am. Precision oil bath can be run at a higher rpm than standard. Important if you speed up the head with a vfd.

Porters had a spring joint mechanism on the infeed table. Great system but made Porters a pain to adjust. Takes an 8' straightedge and two dial indicators on Oneway bases to dial in.
Porkchop guard should be attached with a pin so it can be tilted and dropped along side the table and out of the way. Newer will have 96" tables, the older may have 88". Two of the digits in the serial number will be the year made and the machine badge and numbers on the rabbit ledge of the outfeed table should match. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-06-2016, 8:49 PM

David, I was doing some reading on VFDs. Can't they be a little rough on motors and motor bearings and cause noise. The subject gets over my head real quick. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.
Should I be worried about running on a VFD?

By the way thank you for all the help you've been.

Matt Day

10-06-2016, 10:13 PM

David is one of the most knowledgeable about stuff like this, as is Jack Foresburg (sp?).

IMO the Motor will be fine. Many many users on OWWM and here run their machines with VFD's. You should wonder over to OWWM and see what they have to say too. Lots of Porters and Olivers and Northfields over there.

David Kumm

10-06-2016, 11:20 PM

I'm not even close to Jack in the VFD world but old motors were large frame with lots of air space to cool the windings. I've never had an issue with a vfd at 240v. I am light user and don't run 8 hours at a time but for a hobby guy, I would not worry. I've had far more issues with newer motors, particularly Metric frame. Not because they are Metric but because machinery makes spec high hp in small frames which shorten the motor life. Dave

Matt Day

10-07-2016, 6:12 AM

Might be worth a PM to Jack if you're still concerned.

Cody Armstrong

10-07-2016, 7:23 AM

Thank you Matt. I may try to get in touch with Mr. Forsberg.

David, when you say Porters are a pain to adjust. Do you mean when raising and lowering the infeed table for adjusting depth of cut? Or something else.

Reason I'm asking about Porter is I found this machine. I should get a call back on Monday. http://www.southstatemachinery.com/jointers.html
The table has been re-machined. In the pic I think I can still see the lines that were originally machined.
If this is for sale can you please tell me what I should be asking about other than the oil bath bearings.

David Kumm

10-07-2016, 8:27 AM

It is only the initial set up. Once the tables are dialed in for co planar, I locked down the spring joint knob and don't use it. Porters also had an outboard adjustment for the head. If you set the outfeed and infeed co planar and find that they are not quite parallel to the head, you can adjust the head rather than redo all the tables. Nice feature. I would doubt the regrind on the tables will be cold planed like the original. Probably a Blanchard grind. Check thetables for flat and verify the job is good. A machinery dealer will know what you are talking about but they can be a little fast and loose with the truth so trust but verify. Dave

PS Porter tables are 23" wide and DD will stick out a little more so the Porter will likely stick out from the wall about 8-10" more than the Northfield 12".

Cody Armstrong

10-07-2016, 10:28 AM

David Kumm

10-07-2016, 10:37 AM

Thank you David. Guess we'll see where this goes. Will post again when I find out more.
If you remember a few years ago you were a major help to me when I bought a widebelt. It's been a good machine with no problems.

Glad we both got lucky. Used machines are like children- you never know how they will turn out. Dave

Doug Ladendorf

10-07-2016, 1:03 PM

Jack Forsberg is now bringing in VFDs spec'ed for single phase power in to three phase woodworking machines. I got a 5hp VFD from him and it's pretty nice, reasonable cost too. I haven't heard of VFDs being rough on motors, just the opposite. They can provide some electrical protection, plus you can add a breaking resistor.

Doug

Cody Armstrong

10-07-2016, 4:47 PM

That's too funny David.

Well Doug sounds like he's the man I need to talk to. Thank you for revealing this information.:)

Also, I just want to say how grateful I am for everyone's advise and suggestions. Cody

mreza Salav

10-07-2016, 5:30 PM

A vfd will run a 16" jointer. cost will be in the $500 range and I'd run a 30 amp circuit single phase to the vfd. I'd also add a brake resistor to the vfd when ordering it. Old DD jointers run about 5 minutes after shut off which is dangerous. A vfd itself won't have enough brake capacity to stop the head without at least one additional resistor but they are cheap. Dave

David, I suppose this depends on the VFD and what is included in it, right?
I followed the specs for my VFD on my bandsaw and it has no problem stopping the 24" wheels in 3 (or maybe 5, I forgot) seconds.

David Kumm

10-07-2016, 5:45 PM

David, I suppose this depends on the VFD and what is included in it, right?
I followed the specs for my VFD on my bandsaw and it has no problem stopping the 24" wheels in 3 (or maybe 5, I forgot) seconds.

Yes, could be more but vfd prices seem to keep dropping. Braking is hard to judge but much cheaper to deal with additional up front. A bandsaw has lots of mass too but the wheels are only turning about 25% as fast as a 5" head. I know my jointer takes a lot more effort to stop than my big saw. The resistor also needs some recovery time to cool off. DC Injection brakes are all rated for number of stops per hour. Dave

Ronald Blue

10-07-2016, 7:26 PM

Here you go Cody. 16" Fay and Eagen in Kentucky. 5 HP 3PH belt drive. Might be a possibility.

cincinnati.craigslist.org/tls/5799667719.html

David Kumm

10-07-2016, 8:34 PM

That F and E is a Babbit machine. Nothing wrong with them but learning to pour Babbit is like being thrown into the deep end of the pool on your first lesson. Dave

Rich Riddle

10-07-2016, 8:43 PM

That F and E is a Babbit machine. Nothing wrong with them but learning to pour Babbit is like being thrown into the deep end of the pool on your first lesson. Dave
Dave,

They just poured Babbit last weekend at Arnfest. It took several members quite a while to accomplish it.

345353 345354 345355 345356 345357 345358

mreza Salav

10-07-2016, 9:26 PM

That last photo......

David Kumm

10-07-2016, 9:53 PM

More like being thrown in the Ocean. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-07-2016, 11:32 PM

Here you go Cody. 16" Fay and Eagen in Kentucky. 5 HP 3PH belt drive. Might be a possibility.

cincinnati.craigslist.org/tls/5799667719.html

Thank you Ronald but I will definitely stay away from a jointer with babbitt bearings. I have power hammers with bab bearings. I know how they work and how they're poured but I wouldn't attempt it myself.
I'm no machinist whatsoever and would have to have any major and probably minor work done by a professional. I need a machine that will be reliable and ready to go with no hiccups. Thank you again for pointing it out.

Doug Ladendorf

10-10-2016, 10:04 AM

Cody, you did see the 16" Northfield at half the price didn't you?

Doug

Marty Schlosser

10-10-2016, 3:31 PM

FWIW, I have a Wadkin RD 16 jointer (16", two knife skewed 5" diameter cutterhead) that was built in 1950 and subsequently lovingly restored by the individual who bought it at acution. I purchased it from that second owner, put on a used 3hp Baldor 200 volt 3 phase motor I'd picked up for $50, and a Teco FM50 VFD that I bought new for $215; both prices shown are in Canadian dollars. There's a 30 amp breaker on the line feeding the VFD. I have found the 3 hp to be just fine for this jointer, despite the "standard" 1hp for every 4" of knife length (which would make it underpowered by 30%). Incidentally, I paid $2250 (Canadian, again) for the jointer and it's been dead-accurate and a joy to have in my shop.

A vfd will run a 16" jointer. cost will be in the $500 range and I'd run a 30 amp circuit single phase to the vfd. I'd also add a brake resistor to the vfd when ordering it. Old DD jointers run about 5 minutes after shut off which is dangerous. A vfd itself won't have enough brake capacity to stop the head without at least one additional resistor but they are cheap. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-10-2016, 8:30 PM

Cody, you did see the 16" Northfield at half the price didn't you?

Doug

The one on ebay painted grey, broken handle on ships wheel, priced at 4000.00? Yea I saw it. Just kinda shopping around right now. I'm willing to hold out for awhile until something nice comes along. It has a 3 knife head I'm hoping for a 4. Thank you Doug.

I think I'm playing it safe by ruling out Babbitt bearings and clamshell style head. Any objections by anyone?

David Kumm

10-10-2016, 9:26 PM

Avoid the Oliver clamshell unless you find a dirt cheap machine and change the head. The older Olivers with that head will also have shorter tables and be prior to the early 1930s. Don't let the number of knives trump the table quality. You can adjust speed with a vfd and changing an extra knife is more work than adjusting the pot on the vfd. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-10-2016, 9:55 PM

Ok that's great info. Thanks David. There's a Newman No. 60 Listed on Exfactory as" very good condition" Table is covered in dust so hard to tell what it looks like. I see they have the oil bath bearings. Can also swap the head for a shelix.
What do you think of these machines?

I guess I can post this link mods?? https://www.exfactory.com/Detail.aspx?recnum=JT-010718#prettyPhoto

David Kumm

10-10-2016, 10:50 PM

Ex Factory tends to be very high price wise and a reseller with not always much knowledge of the real condition so be careful. The Newman 60 was one of the great jointers made. Maybe the heaviest build of them all. In good condition is would be top of the heap. Not sure it is the best choice for someone new to the old machine business. So few that information is tough to come by. Northfield and oliver have parts and a huge following so any issues can be discussed and advice will be forthcoming.With a Newman you might find you need the knowledge to be able to fend for yourself. I'd feel better if the seller were dealing with his personal machine that was loved or at least from a dealer I trusted. There are some but you need to know enough about machines to verify their statements. Dave

Andrew Hughes

10-10-2016, 11:44 PM

Still looking,probably too far but Dan at Davis and Wells usually has Several nicely restored machines for sale.Last time I was there was in January
But he's in California
I still say boooo the a Vfd.
http://davisandwells.publishpath.com/used-woodworking-machinery

Aj

John Sincerbeaux

10-11-2016, 12:06 AM

Cody,
Another thing.... a lot of Northfield 16" jointers for sale are "Pattern Maker's" models. Both models for sale on eBay right now are PM's models. You can tell by the handle/lever on the front of the outfeed table. A quote from Jeff at Northfield..."if you are not a pattern maker, don't buy a pattern maker's jointer".
Most sellers/dealers leave that important feature out of the description.
Good luck. Be patient but diligent in your search.
John

Cody Armstrong

10-11-2016, 7:39 AM

David, advice taken on the Newman. Will try to stick with Oliver, Northfield, and Porter. Still haven't gotten a call back about the one I mentioned earlier.

Awesome Andrew! I'll give them a call about the Oliver rebuild they have on offer. Thank you. Anything I get will probably have to be shipped anyway.

John, I watched a video were that was said about PM's jointers but there was no reason given. Thoughts on this from someone?

David Kumm

10-11-2016, 9:33 AM

The Northfield with the lever on the outfeed has a spring joint mechanism. To my knowledge it is not a true pattermaker in that it doesn't produce draft like an Oliver 12. It just needs to be locked down. Same for the Porter but the infeed is the better table for the adjustment.

Certain old PM jointers were made by SAC but most were 12" FS 305. Dave

Martin Wasner

10-11-2016, 9:51 AM

There's a 1948, 16" Northfield direct drive jointer on woodweb for $4k

Cody Armstrong

10-11-2016, 12:31 PM

Thanks Martin. That one is also listed on ebay for 10,500.00, o.b.o. I've looked at it a few times. Definitely wouldn't pay ten five for it.

Andrew, just talked to Dan at Davis and Wells. Unfortunately that jointer has been sold. The list is outdated for now.

Cody Armstrong

10-11-2016, 8:51 PM

I found a 16" L. Power about 90 miles from me. Don't know what condition. Can't find much info on them. I did see they have 3 gibs per knife to hold them which seems a bit crazy. I also read the castings are rough compared to other machines of that time.

Cody Armstrong

10-12-2016, 6:43 PM

Ok guys I have a decision to make and need help. Just got off the phone with Ben Rock at Pleasant St. Machinery. I have the option to let him go through the 16" Northfield listed on Ebay (222270054168) Have him regrind the tables if needed, repair, clean and repaint for approximately 5500.00 or wait and find out more info on this Porter 300 CM at http://www.southstatemachinery.com/jointers.html The table has been reground but that's all I'll know on this machine for at least a week.(owner is out of town) Price for porter is 6500.00.
Shipping price will have to be added to either machine.

Seems like a no brainer to go with Ben Rock rebuilding the Northfield. Does anyone have experience dealing with Ben? Any opinions on which machine to go with considering prices and the info I have so far.

peter gagliardi

10-12-2016, 6:45 PM

Ben is a good and knowledgable guy. Get the Northfield, all day long.

Martin Wasner

10-12-2016, 7:16 PM

Have you called Northfield to have them go through it? I'd be curious what, if any, price difference there would be. They built it, they seem the obvious choice to me.

Cody Armstrong

10-12-2016, 7:46 PM

Ben spent a lot of time with me on the phone. He sounds like he really knows what he's talking about and better yet he refurbishes machines himself. That is really what I'm looking for. In other words it makes me a lot more comfortable.

Martin, I don't know how Northfield go through it? Do you mean over the phone?

Cody Armstrong

10-12-2016, 8:01 PM

Martin, I just realized what you meant. So have it shipped to Northfield and have them refurbish it. I like that idea and will call them tomorrow. Kinda afraid of the price they may give me.

Martin Wasner

10-12-2016, 8:01 PM

Martin Wasner

10-12-2016, 8:02 PM

I should clarify, they rebuild their own machines.

Martin Wasner

10-12-2016, 8:05 PM

Martin, I just realized what you meant. So have it shipped to Northfield and have them refurbish it. I like that idea and will call them tomorrow. Kinda afraid of the price they may give me.

They built it, no one should know it better.

David Kumm

10-12-2016, 8:53 PM

Both Ben Rock and Jeff at Northfield are well respected by the OWWM guys. I have serious reservations about spending a lot of $$ to rehab a jointer as they are simple machines but here is my take.

Talk to both and get quotes. You want both to spec the type and quality of the bearings and how flat they guarantee the tables to be. There is a good grinder in Rockford IL which may be who Ben uses and I know Jeff will give you a number as he still grinds his own.

See if they will document the process with pictures throughout. You are paying a bunch for the refurb which you will never recover if you resell. That is fine ( I have done the same with other machines ) but only if you can learn enough to handle some rehab in the future. That amortizes the cost and helps to justify it. I would pay to rehab a more complex machine rather than a jointer but that is your call. Patience can get you a good machine for 3-5K but if you are willing to pay to take some risk out, make sure the rehab is well done and you learn a lot in the process. It is very easy to get 10k into a machine that is worth it to you but only worth 5K to the rest of the world. Ask me how I've learned that. Dave

David Kumm

10-12-2016, 9:00 PM

Cody Armstrong

10-12-2016, 9:49 PM

After my conversation with Ben today and what ya'll are saying it sounds like he's who I need to go through. Really takes a lot of worry out of the equation. By the way Dave I found an old post of yours about Fred Rehak and found Ben. :)

What you say makes a lot of sense and I'm soaking it all in. Ben didn't mention changing the bearings, neither did I. As expensive as you say they are I imagine that wasn't in the price. Will ask about them also.
If I can get the jointer to Northfield and have all the work done for 8000.00 I'm comfortable with that knowing what I'll have in the end. Guess I'll find out more tomorrow.

Thank you again for everyone's help. Cody

Rick Thompson34

10-12-2016, 10:24 PM

My 2-cents, feel free to accept or reject as you like. Do you want a jointer or do you want a Northfield? As others have mentioned, there are plenty of options out there in the same price range or less, of much more modern technology, that will do the job for you. But maybe you just want a Northfield? And there's nothing wrong with that. I agree with Peter that the price is fair but if it were me, I would not be OK with a standard cutterhead. You might factor in whatever it costs to get a Byrd head retrofitted onto that machine. Best of luck with your decision.

Erik

Can you fill me in on the advantages of modern technology in a jointer? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but straight knives can give a pretty darn good finish on a jointer and I've never considered a segmented head for a jointer since you're likely going to hit both sides on the planer anyway. I can see the argument for setting the knives being easier on a segmented head, but in my opinion you should be capable of setting straight knives on a machine of that class if you're in the market to own a machine of that class. If you can't set the knives, then you likely can't maintain anything/everything else on the machine.

Rick

Jeff Bartley

10-13-2016, 7:26 AM

Cody,
Pay attention to Daves' post about that Martin in CA.......if I was laying down that amount of cash for a jointer that Martin would be first on my list! Don't get me wrong, I love everything Northfield, I have a 16HD myself, but if someone offered to trade for a 20" Martin I wouldn't hesitate!

Cody Armstrong

10-13-2016, 8:06 AM

Jeff, I've registered at OWWM. Just waiting to be accepted. I did look them up and they are super impressive machines and look like the lions roar but I still have space and power issues to consider(mainly space, I'm talking in inches).

Cody Armstrong

10-13-2016, 9:16 AM

I talked to Jeff at Northfield. He said w/o him seeing pictures and knowing serial no. to look up machine it could cost 5-6 grand for them to go through it and get it up to specs required by law. So that option is out. He also said to avoid regrinding tables at all costs. Ben said basically the same about regrinding tables.

Cody Armstrong

10-13-2016, 9:34 AM

Meanwhile I'll take a look at the Martin T51. I need to know floor space requirements for it to seriously consider. Also will wait to get more info on the Porter. And be patient per ya'lls advice.

Martin Wasner

10-13-2016, 4:06 PM

$6350, on woodweb. It has a Tersa head in it.

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/images/494457/Jointer_1.jpg

David Kumm

10-13-2016, 5:16 PM

I wasn't serious about the Martin for Cody as it will need a lot of room due to tables and fence design. The scmi above isn't as heavy but the Tersa is an excellent system. I'd consider that for the price. The 520 is more rare than the 410. Dave

Martin Wasner

10-13-2016, 6:43 PM

The same guy has a 20" scm planer for sale. If it were a 24", I'd seriously consider trekking to Texas to grab them both.

Cody Armstrong

10-13-2016, 6:45 PM

Martin your just tempting me. If I had room for a 20 incher I would look hard at it. I've got a lot of slabs and pine boards 18" wide and wider. I looked at a few sites and found only one that had the machine dimensions- 119"x56" Surely the 56" wide is not right?
I'm guessing SCMI is not making these anymore or their site is not updated, can't find specs for the machine there. Although it would go well with the new S600p I just bought . :)

Martin Wasner

10-13-2016, 8:16 PM

Martin your just tempting me.

Meh, spending others people's money is always fun.

I'm constantly trolling for used equipment, I'm somewhat in the market for a better jointer as well. It's just a ways down the list for me. Right now, (for expensive stuff anyways), my priority list is as such.

1. Rip saw, I don't have one.
2. Planer, mine is a pile of crap
3. Coper, I'm tired of doing it on a shaper
4. Jointer, mine is a pile of crap
5. Proper edge sander

Plus I'm ready to move to a CNC.
Next month I need to pull the trigger on a new air compressor to the tune of about $9k for the new shop.

So many tools, so little money.

David Kumm

10-13-2016, 8:41 PM

Cody, you should come to Wisconsin and get my Oliver jointer and 399 18" planer. The Oliver 399 was a great machine and had a small footprint. We just keep messing with your head. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-13-2016, 8:55 PM

Martin, you got a long list with a lotta dough to spend. Sounds like your in way deeper than I am.
The jointer I'm after will just about do it for me but you know how that goes.

Dave, I'd love to do it. That would be cool but isn't your Olly a 12". That's a fur piece to drive. :) I need someone to mess with me. Trying to find a piece of equipment is a pain in the.....
I'm about ready to take a break. I've learned so much about jointers from this thread it's amazing.

mreza Salav

10-13-2016, 9:01 PM

If you are not in a hurry you can find good machines sometimes for great prices.
The greatest deal I missed was a SCM 20" J/P combo that went for under $800 in an auction and looked good. It was only 3 hours from me but I was moving houses and the shop and couldn't scratch my head.

Martin Wasner

10-13-2016, 9:16 PM

Martin, you got a long list with a lotta dough to spend. Sounds like your in way deeper than I am.
The jointer I'm after will just about do it for me but you know how that goes.

It never ends. I run a shop. I'm a couple hundred grand in, and in the process of putting up a new building.

It. Never. Ends.

John Sincerbeaux

10-14-2016, 12:58 AM

Cody, here's a pic of my Northfield 16HD that I just got.
I was just like you two months ago. Last month I started a thread.."Northfield vs. Martin" which I think turned into an interesting discussion. Kind of a "new" vs "old school" discussion. I am usually not a vintage kind of guy, but for some reason I became pretty enamored by a Northfield jointer. I thought it would be pretty neat to have an old school heavy iron jointer in my shop. Not to mention it was about $22k less than a new martin jointer.
I wanted you to see this so you can at least see what does come available. I paid $4k plus $300 for the owner to crate it for me.
Good luck!
345737

Cody Armstrong

10-14-2016, 7:47 AM

Wow John, you scored big. I can only hope to find one in as good a condition. I know how you feel. I'm kinda hung on a three toed design machine now.
Are you happy with your decision now that you've been using it? Thanks for posting a pic. You can crate it up and send it my way if your not happy with it. Beautiful machine!

Cody Armstrong

10-15-2016, 5:20 PM

So ya'll given what I've learned about reground tables should I stay away from a machine that has them? Ask how much was taken off?
I will ask why they were re-ground to begin with.

Jeff Bartley

10-16-2016, 8:05 AM

Cody,
I don't know where you're located but there's a 16" Oliver 166 in NY, it's listed on woodweb, $3700.
Looks really clean.
Don't we all love spending someone else's money on tools!!!

Cody Armstrong

10-16-2016, 8:30 AM

Thank you Jeff. I've actually looked at that machine. I really have my heart set on a 3 leg design, Porter or Northfield.

I found a 24" Porter on C-list in Oklahoma. My what a beast of a machine and way to big for my space. Tables look to be in decent shape. Asking 2000.00 o.b.o.
I watched a tube video of a guy running one of these. Honestly it kind of freaked me out watching him run it without a guard. If I had the space I would look into it. Someone here should buy it.
Also found a very nice looking 16" Nfield close to Boston. Wish I was closer. I'm not so sure about buying through C-list or how to do it and not get ripped off. I could hire someone to check it but how can I be assured the machine will actually be shipped once I send the money.

peter gagliardi

10-16-2016, 9:08 AM

The ONLY way you buy something of that value off Clist is IN PERSON. You then have to factor that into your cost/time structure.

Martin Wasner

10-16-2016, 9:16 AM

The ONLY way you buy something of that value off Clist is IN PERSON. You then have to factor that into your cost/time structure.

This.

Added words to make my posting long enough for the rules

David Kumm

10-16-2016, 10:35 AM

I agree that if you are spending for a good old jointer you need to see it or deal with someone you trust. I turned down a restored Porter 20" because a guy I know checked it for me and the tables were out .008 in a way that I didn't think the price $5000 warranted. My 16" Porter cost me $2500 plus shipping ( from a dealer I trust )and some work but that was a few years ago. I would expect that to be 3000-3500 now. Flat tables are more important than whether it is three toed but the Oliver knives are a little harder to set and their swing away guard isn't my favorite. You need to be patient when buying used and open to the machine that comes along that you can verify condition on. I look for tables that were planed and if I can still see the lines all the way across the width, I start to get serious. If I'm not sure the machine needs to be cheap enough to warrant the additional work and grinding. A $2000 machine won't compare to a 5000 one. For 5K the tables should be within .002-.003 or move on. Dave345828345829345830

PS Here is a 24" Porter with good tables. See the faint lines in the last picture.

Cody Armstrong

10-16-2016, 5:32 PM

That confirms what I was thinking. Will have to let the c-list finds pass me by. Thank you Martin and Peter.

David thank you for explaining the above about the tables and prices. The pictures of the lines are very helpful. My guess if the lines are still visible then only .001-.002 of material was taken off. Is this close to correct?
I still have a lead on the Porter 300 CM that I linked to earlier. At their asking price of 6500.00 it should be completely rebuilt with new ABEC 5 bearings, tables reground to .002-.003 end to end and possibly still be able to see the lines, new oil cups no missing or repaired parts, all serial numbers matching and re-painted. Basically like it just left the factory. Anything I'm missing other than start switch, working motor and knives? By the way what does the "CM" stand for. It didn't say in the old owners manual on OWWM.

David Kumm

10-16-2016, 6:43 PM

CM is direct drive. The lines are original. You will seldom see any lines on a reground table unless it is cold planed and few do that anymore. Both my Porter tables are original. The problem with buying resotored machines is the amount of work to do so is huge and not very profitable. Restoring can take a beat up machine and make it work like new but it still won't be any better than an original condition machine that hasn't been abused. Porter was known for the worst paint jobs on the planet so they never were pretty when new. I've rehabbed a lot of machines and doubt I could make $10 an hour doing it. I do it mainly to learn about the design and get it to where I want it without spending 10K. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-16-2016, 8:15 PM

Ok I understand now it looked like your tables had been just slightly reground.

Find an old Porter or Northfield. I'll make it worth your while. :)

Again many thanks for your help David.

Igor Vasilenko

10-17-2016, 9:49 PM

My friend owns a Porter 24" jointer just like the one David has shown in his last post. It is a beast. He paid a bit over $2,000 for it IIRC. The paint was not shiny; otherwise, runs fine!

Cody, if there is one word I could use to give you what I believe to be the way to go, it would be - "auctions". You would not believe what can be bought at local and regional auction sales for foundry's, machine shops, and manufacturer closeouts. I've been able to get machines for 1/10th (or less!) of the usual Ebay listing values.

The things to keep in mind when shopping at auctions is that you need to get to know a few possible quirks. First of all, it is easy to an inexperienced buyer to bid too much. Remember that each and every auction sale will have it's lots that end up selling for too much. In other words, someone will overpay. Make sure it ism't you!
Also, there are buyer's premiums and taxes added. Factor those added costs into your final bid amount.

As with any other purchase, do your research, set your limit, and bid accordingly. Also - very important - IF you need to wait a bit, wait a bit. Factories are shutting down all the time here and there across the US (and Canada). It is truly a BUYERS market right now. 30 years ago, a 16" three toed jointer like the Northfield you are considering would easily fetch $8K at a normal sale. Nowadays, the auctioneer would be lucky to get $1.5K, unless the sale is extremely well advertised and the machine is in immaculate condition.

My 2 cents. Take it FWIW obviously.

I've assembled my entire business' worth of equipment through auctions. Probably saved the better part of $100K. I did make mistakes that cost me, but when you learn the details, the benefits FAR outweigh the learning curve.

Hang in there! Your dream machine awaits you.

Mel Fulks

10-17-2016, 10:54 PM

Igor, my opinion is along the same line as yours. And when one buys the new stuff the salesman wants to sell you "the even better new one" just two or three years out", especially the moulder salesmen.

Cody Armstrong

10-18-2016, 4:14 PM

I understand what you guys are saying about auctions and have been looking at all I can find. But wouldn't buying through an auction basically be like buying sight unseen/only going off pictures and company description of condition?
How does one go about buying a machine through an auction, confirm the condition of machine and be comfortable with what you might receive. On top of that it would have to be crated/palletized and shipped by someone trustworthy if it's halfway across the country or further.
I know I could hire an independent technician but they would have to know the machine and what to look for. How do ya'll buy from auctions if they aren't local to you? I've been burned once buy a dishonest machine salesman. I don't and won't go through that again. I have to know exactly what I'm getting.

Martin Wasner

10-18-2016, 7:27 PM

There was a 12" Northfield on an irs auction recently that went for something silly like $450. For that price, even putting $5k into it, you'd have a sweet jointer. Or just wait until scrap prices come back....

I buy as much as sensible used, a lot of it on auctions. A large portion of those purchases are made sight unseen. It's a risk. If you can, inspecting it is the way to go. New is sweet, but I can't often justify the cost.

Cody Armstrong

10-18-2016, 7:59 PM

Presently I have leads on two refurbished machines. Porter and Northfield. Just waiting for all the information on both. Hopefully by end of week.

Andrew Hughes

10-18-2016, 9:41 PM

Well I hope it works out your Quest is killing me.
If it doesn't maybe David can pull one down from his stack of jointers in his storage.?( I'm not calling you a hoarder David):)
I looked for more than a year for my Oliver.I almost settled for a machine 4 hrs away.My lucky wife searched for me and found one 1 hr away.She searched for a joiner in a local city recycler.
When looking for vintage Machines there seems to be mysterious forces at work.

Aj

Matt Day

10-18-2016, 9:51 PM

I think Igor is talking about live, in person only auctions. It can be a time investment just to find the auction or wait for the right one to come up within your search radius. Then you need to get there, get your hands and eyes on it to inspect, then win the auction and get it home.

So yes you can get great deals, but you need to be patient and have the time to invest.

Online auctions can be good too, but unless you drive to the location just to inspect the machine, you don't really know what you're getting. Then if you win you have to drive back again to pick it up. And an online auction is open to the world and you've got more competition than a local auction.
My opinion is to be patient and wait for a local non-online auction. Search auctionzip and irs auctions (irs is more industrial and likely more up your alley for the big jointer you're looking for).

Cody Armstrong

10-19-2016, 12:29 AM

Ohhh! Andrew has let the cat out of the bag. David, a secret cache of jointers??? I'll bet he has another Porter ;) I've been enjoying learning and have been stumbling around on OWWM also. I have options opening up. Just trying to gather enough information and knowledge before the real deal comes along. At some point I'll have to make the decision of which machine to go with.

If I were to go the auction route I would have to see it in person. Which as you say Matt there's no telling how far away it could be. The more I read on restorations at OWWM site the more I like the idea. But I know better if you know what I mean. I have a 6" walker turner that runs well and would be a good candidate to restore cosmetically for a learning experience. I'm not so sure about a larger size. Ya'll are doing a good job at trying to convince me to go a cheaper route but I'm really liking the pre-refurbished route.

Keith Weber

10-19-2016, 4:14 AM

Cody, it's your money, but if I wouldn't pay half of what he's asking for a 12" jointer. But that's just me. If you're willing to wait for the deals, they do come along. I paid $2700 for my 16" Northfield. It was built in 1960 and the tables are so flat, I'm unable to measure any deviations from flat with a long, precision straight edge and shims. There's very few parts on jointers, and other than the drive and cutterhead, they see relatively little movement. I've seen lots of 12" Northfields go for under $2K. That leaves a lot of money left over for new bearings and a paint job. They'd do the same job as your newer one. I run a couple of 2 hp, 3ph machines on VFDs to give me variable speed. The rest, I run off of an RPC. I don't see a single phase motor as a positive.

Everybody's situation is different. If money is no object and you like nice things and you want them right now, then you probably won't find a nicer jointer than the one you're looking at. If you value value, and don't mind a little work (searching or tinkering), then I'm sure better deals will come along.

Matt Day

10-19-2016, 7:50 AM

Restorations are a lot of fun but for my small shop, everything else stops. Every flat surface is covered with parts and tools. I'm currently working on a 12" Northfield light duty jointer. I only get about 5 hours a week in the shop, each in small increments of time here and there. I've probably got 100 hours in it so far, not to mention all the research I've put in.

You'd probably need to get a lift of some kind too - engine hoist, chain fall, or gantry hoist for lifting all the heavy parts. My "small" tables are probability 100lb each which I can man handle but the base is closer to 300lb, for which I use a come along i rigged to my reinforced ceiling joist.

And you'll need other things like bearing pullers. I plopped down $75 for a big used OTC puller for get my motor rotor off. And I made a knock down spray booth for my garage.

The point is that restoration is a whole nother hobby which takes time, space, and more tools (yay!). It's a lot of fun and rewarding but if you make your living woodworking, it might not be a good idea financially to do big restoration unless you're working on personal time.

Cody Armstrong

10-19-2016, 7:44 PM

Yea Matt and Kieth. I'm just not interested in restoring a jointer myself. I'd rather pay the extra for something that is plug and play. I don't want to work on it until I'm forced to i.e.. bearings fail. If I had to have tables ground I doubt there is somewhere close to me and I don't want to even start looking for a resource before I need it. I have a couple friends that are mechanically inclined should I need help with something but not a complete restoration.

Martin Wasner

10-19-2016, 10:07 PM

An honest to god industrial shaper won't need bearings for a long time. They're designed to be turned on and then shut down for thanksgiving and Christmas, but that's about it. In much less than that environment the timeline should be measured in era's.

Martin Wasner

10-19-2016, 10:08 PM

Btw. BUY SOMETHING!

the suspense is killing me

Cody Armstrong

10-20-2016, 12:10 PM

What's the pot up to. :)

I got a lead on a 16" Northfield within reasonable driving distance. Waiting for pictures will be a few days.

Shipped in 1947. Everything original, guards, hand nuts for fence, etc.
5 horse or bigger single phase belt driven(Could have been converted to belt after leaving NF per NF records)
3 knife cutter head
Has original oil bath bearings
Spring joint mechanism

Gotta see pictures first before I can go look at it. The only catch I see from here is belt driven. Everybody is saying that direct drive is superior. I can't work out if it's an opinion or fact. Called NF but Jeff was unavailable, was told it doesn't matter whether BD or DD.

Still waiting for info on the refurbed Northfield and Porter in the Northeast. Not positive but I think they are within minutes of each other. So I could have the opportunity to look at a both in person.

David Kumm

10-20-2016, 12:25 PM

Direct drive machines become favorites of old machine guys but I wouldn't say they are better than belt driven. The benefits of DD are more apparent with planers and saws than jointers. They may be slightly less smooth but the ability to run at higher rpm negates that. My 16" Porter is DD and the 24" is belt. A jointer isn't a finish surface machine, rather a get the board flat machine. Dave

Mel Fulks

10-20-2016, 12:33 PM

That sounds good, if you have space the belt driven is fine. There are already enough you tube clips of on edge coins!

Cody Armstrong

10-20-2016, 1:10 PM

I read that belt driven, described as" can be bouncy in the cut" and that makes sense. I would think that when hogging off material that's were a difference could be noticeable. But when taking off 1/8" or less it wouldn't affect the cutter head RPM. If that's what the bounciness is referring to. Like you say David it's not for final finish.

I don't think I've ever tried to take much more than an 1/8" in one pass anyway being afraid of tear out.

David Kumm

10-20-2016, 1:23 PM

you won't find " bouncy " to be a problem with a 2000 lb jointer. The balancing of the head is a bigger deal and the cast iron absorbs what little vibration if any there might be. I find I take off 1/32" about 90% of the time. Taking off 1/8" isn't necessarily more productive when straightening a board when hand feeding. A feeder allows for a deeper cut. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-20-2016, 2:16 PM

Alright now that I've found a belt driven machine I'm not so sure it will utilize my space as BD machines can do. I'm sorry for asking a question I feel is petty but I have to be 100% positive.

It will go were the 8" sits in the picture. If DD, I was planning to put the motor/cutter head on either side of the post. Most likely on this side the way the 8" sits. I think if the belt drive is set up like most with motor under out feed then the belts and guard will push it away from the post towards the table to the left more than a DD would.
There's five feet between the post and table saw fence rail. This is the only place it can be put and why I say I'm working with inches space wise. My options to buy a few inches is cut 2-3" off table saw table and move the whole setup over or cut post and move it over a 6" or both. I'd rather not do either of the two options, a lot of work for very little space. Regardless the side of post the motor is on there's over 10' either direction for infeed/outfeed.
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Mel Fulks

10-20-2016, 2:30 PM

BABBITT runs real smooth. Only bounciness I've encountered was on cheap modern stuff. The one you are considering probably will remove at least 3/4inch and might remove as much as 1 inch, so it can serve like a straight line saw.

Andrew Hughes

10-20-2016, 3:22 PM

I've ran several belt drive jointers one was so bad the ends of the tables did bounce.I never could get glue ready edges.My hand plane skills did improve.
My jointer is direct drive run very smooth and my Foreplane now collects dust.
I also run a Rpc and I like the snap of the magnetic starter and whipping sound the head make as it starts.
I have my tables set 1/8 from the knives if I back them off more it's even less noise.
5 inch 3 knife Oliver.Here a video of my machine
http://youtu.be/lKctMoDtIUk

Aj

Cody Armstrong

10-20-2016, 7:31 PM

David that's about what I normally take off, 1/32 when facing never an 1/8. On edge the same unless there's a bad bow.

Andrew, I've never had the pleasure of running stock on edge to glue up. The fence on mine won't stay square on account of the slack. Always straight line on TS.
Thanks for pointing me to your video. Looks like you made it today.

I found some good pics of a belt drive Northfield that clearly show the belt guard set up on OWWM. I think I'll have to but the ships wheel up to the post if there's enough room for what I'm thinking. If not then I'll make it work regardless of DD or BD.

Matt Day

10-21-2016, 7:55 PM

Did you see the 16" Northfield on eBay? $4k

Edit: 10 pages of this?! That might be a record.

Cody Armstrong

10-21-2016, 8:44 PM

Yea. This thread is turning into a good educational resource.
:) Matt. I called about it. Ben Rock has that machine. It's the one I mentioned having refurbed by him or Northfield. There's a little pitting on the tables but he checked them with a straightedge and has run it.
I'm getting interested in the single phase belt driven that is 3-4 hrs from me. Just waiting on pics. From the way the owner describes the condition it sounds good.

A question for anyone:
What's the best way to check the tables for flatness without a 6' precision straightedge? Joint two 6' long boards on edge and check against each other? I have a 6' aluminum level and a 6' straight edge that I use in the shop but nothing high quality.

Ken Grant

10-21-2016, 8:56 PM

Andrew Hughes

10-21-2016, 9:03 PM

Table flatness and the ability for the machine to joint perfect edges are two different things.
The tables need to be coplane and the knifes need to be sharp and set properly to the outfeed table.
Then your have to have the good technique when passing the wood over the cutter head.
Jointing two pieces of hard maple is a good way to see how everything is set.
Any gaps will be obvious to even the most causual observer.

Aj

David Kumm

10-21-2016, 11:07 PM

A decent extruded level can be very straight. I put my 8' against my Pinske edge and it is so good I now use it instead. Most of the time if you try a good level and measure using feeler gauges, you can flip to the other side and if the gauges show the same it is the table that is out. The old wedgebed design had the tables bolted to the wedges so getting them co planar is easy. If they are flat you can adjust the rest. The same can not be said for the newer wedgebeds where the table and wedge are cast together. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-22-2016, 10:51 AM

So David I can check each table independently? If they are flat and the tables aren't coplanar then they can be shimmed between the wedge and table?
I believe the infeed on a NF is 52" long. Could I get by with a 4' precision ground edge, start at the steel lip, check, then slide it towards the end of the table to check the remaining 4".

Am I understanding this correctly?

Edit: I may just spring for a 6' starrett. Accuracy (in): ± .0002” per foot
Could I get by with this length? I may need one for future setup anyway.
https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-380-72-Straight-Length-Thickness/dp/B0006J4H4K#customerReviews

Jeff Duncan

10-22-2016, 9:45 PM

I have a 4' Starrett and it's long enough for most of my needs. I also however have a couple of aluminum rectangular tubes that are 1" x 4" x 8' long that are accurate enough for most machine setups as well as a multitude of other shop uses. You can buy the stuff online and it's much less expensive than the Starrett;)

good luck,
JeffD

David Kumm

10-24-2016, 10:04 PM

Steve Smith in CO has a very nice Northfield 12" on Woodweb. I know Steve and he is a good guy to deal with. Dave

Andrew Hughes

10-24-2016, 11:42 PM

Damn nice machine David wish I had choices like that when I was on the scout for a 12 jointer.
Do you happen to know what the hook angle of the head is on the North field.
According to Rick F my Oliver 3 knife has a 38 degree hook.My measurement was very close to that.

Aj

Cody Armstrong

10-25-2016, 5:21 AM

I saw it. That machine is pristine wish it was a 16" it would be sold.

David Kumm

10-25-2016, 7:07 AM

I don't know the hook angle. Being that the head is 4.25" vs the 5" on the Oliver I would think it might be different. Dave

Cody Armstrong

10-27-2016, 5:58 PM

So I've wondered a few times how many of you think I would cave and just buy something.

Looks like I'll be playing the waiting game for a jointer. Thought I'd let ya'll know if anyone is interested.

I've been talking with Steve Smith. He's sent me pics of restoration examples he's done. They are superb and beyond immaculate. I've found the right person!!!
If I have to wait for a while it will be well worth it to have a machine he's rebuilt. And worth every penny!!!

This thread evolved from me pricing and buying a 12" to being talked into a 16". I know now if I'd bought the 12" it wouldn't have been big enough. I've learned an incredible amount about jointers, brand names, and how they're built. I never dreamed I'd learn so much from this thread. I've spent countless hours searching and researching.

I want to thank everyone that has taken the time to give their advice on this thread. There's a good chance I would have made a poor decision without ya'lls help. So a BIG thank you to all. :)

"Sir" David Kumm, :) I especially want to thank you for schooling me on bearings, table flatness, planer marks, and going in to great detail to help me learn and understand what I want in a jointer.
Crazy timing Steve posting the 12" Northfield to Woodweb during my quest. Yea, you could have directed me straight to him but I think you wanted me to learn. That's a good thing and I thank you for it.
I'd shake your hand if I could.

When I have a happy ending for this thread it will be resurrected.

Again. Many thanks to everyone.
Cody

David Kumm

10-27-2016, 11:53 PM

I've bought from Steve but I do my own rehabs so I haven't seen his. I'll be anxious to see yours. Steve has a Kolle planer that is as sweet as I've seen. I think he had a Kolle jointer too but that may be long gone. Dave

Van Huskey

10-27-2016, 11:57 PM

I wish there was more Kolle equipment in the US. The table saw below piqued my interest in them a couple of years ago. Overbuilt is the first word that pops to mind.

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Cody Armstrong

10-28-2016, 5:39 AM

It may or may not happen with Steve. He does have in storage a 16" older style Porter that has the newer style fence. It's been a while since he's seen it so from memory he couldn't tell me if it is a good candidate for rehabbing.
Hopefully sometime next week he'll let me know something on it. Meanwhile he's made some calls to his connections to try and find a good core machine. I'm gonna let him hunt for awhile and see what pops up. I really want to go through him for this deal. I know he does things right and I know I can trust him. I'd share his pics he sent me but I didn't ask for permission so I better not.

Matt Day

10-28-2016, 7:19 AM

Holy Moses look at that fence on the Kolle! Thanks for sharing - I've never heard of them.

Martin Wasner

10-28-2016, 7:52 AM

Steve has a Kolle planer that is as sweet as I've seen.

Call him for info? Or do you have a link to it?

Van Huskey

10-28-2016, 7:57 AM

Holy Moses look at that fence on the Kolle! Thanks for sharing - I've never heard of them.

They went belly up right around 2000 IIRC. Not a lot of their machines in the US.

David Kumm

10-28-2016, 8:27 AM

I believe Steve still has the Kolle. If anyone pms me with an email address I will forward pictures. Dave

Martin Wasner

10-28-2016, 10:34 AM

I believe Steve still has the Kolle. If anyone pms me with an email address I will forward pictures. Dave

I would, but your inbox is full.

David Kumm

10-28-2016, 11:00 AM

I would, but your inbox is full.

Fixed it. Dave

Cody Armstrong

11-07-2016, 10:43 PM

Hey everyone this is the 16" Porter 300 CM that is my future machine. Early model 1951. Presently in Colorado. Has late model cored and gear adjusted fence. It will be completely restored by Steve Smith. New bearings, tables will be mattison ground at Forrest City Machine, motor rewound, new electrical, painted, ect. Battery not included. Hopefully the next pics will be in a few months.

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Keith Weber

11-08-2016, 12:23 AM

Are you grinding the tables because you want the look, or because the tables are warped? My 16" Northfield was as flat when I picked it up as it probably was leaving the foundry over 50 years prior. I personally wouldn't grind them if they were flat.

Cody Armstrong

11-08-2016, 6:20 AM

I don't know how flat the tables are presently. I haven't seen the machine in person these are the only photos I have. They do have some small chunks missing around the cutter head lips that will be ground back to straight. On the infeed table there is a small bolt on table extension in front of the cutter head that is broken and will be repaired(it's hard to see in the photo). Other than paint color Steve is making the decisions on what needs to be done. In a perfect world I'd rather the tables not be ground....but.
Being the early model 300 CM it doesn't have the wraparound table extension in front of the cutter head and doesn't have the fence guide support table extension. They were never put on by Porter and/or were added on the later models. It does have 8' tables though. The cored/geared fence is not the original fence for this machine. It has a 3 knife head.