Frameless Kitchen Cabinets

[Charles P. Wright]

I'm in the planning phases of a kitchen cabinet project. I want to build frameless boxes, with a full overlay flat panel door in cherry. I have a couple of questions, that I'm hoping someone who has done this before would have come across.

I've read Bob Lang's book, and he said that the reveals at the edge of a cabinet should be 1/16" and between doors should be 1/8".

There are going to be a couple of places with applied end panels that will be a flat panel in rails/stiles (e.g., at the end of the run next to our range). For those, my plan is to have the edge of the panel finish out flush with front of the door. Should I still use a 1/16" reveal there, it seems like 1/8" might make more sense.

My second question relates to the other side of those cabinets, which will have the shorter above range cabinets next to them, so I don't think a panel makes sense there [I have a few other cases like this, with only part of a cabinet side exposed].

I was planning on doing using cherry plywood, with some solid cherry on the front to finish the edge. I'm not sure if I should use that piece of cherry ply as the side of the box, which would mean that I'm not losing extra room for the applied panels (admittedly 3/4" isn't so bad). What I'm concerned about is (1) will it look funny to have the "frame" only on the outside edge; (2) will it matter that one side on the inside of the cabinet would be prefinished maple, but the other side would be cherry.

On the counterpoint, I think it might look a little bit odd to have a 3/4" strip of hardwood between the two doors (for the full size wall cabinet and the small above range cabinet, which will also be hiding the vent pipe).

Maybe it would be better to try laminating a 1/2" sheet of cherry to a 1/4" sheet of prefinished maple, but it seems like that might also be complicating things and asking for trouble.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or experiences you've got.

[brian zawatsky]

I do commercial Millwork for a living, and have done lots and lots of frameless cabinet design/build/installs.

1/16" reveals with 1/8" between fronts is exactly what you'll want, especially with a shaker-style flat panel door. Nice clean lines.

If you do an applied endpanel and flush it out with the door, leave an 1/8" gap between the two. No endpanel where the range cabinet and/or fridge cabinets are, just a finished end on the full size box next to the short one.

I'd use a pre-finished maple ply, using the finished side for the cabinet interiors. I'd edge out the panels with cherry veneer tape before assembling the cases, and use a cherry wood-on-wood veneer for your finished ends.

[Paul Girouard]

I'm in the planning phases of a kitchen cabinet project. I want to build frameless boxes, with a full overlay flat panel door in cherry. I have a couple of questions, that I'm hoping someone who has done this before would have come across.

I've read Bob Lang's book, and he said that the reveals at the edge of a cabinet should be 1/16" and between doors should be 1/8".

There are going to be a couple of places with applied end panels that will be a flat panel in rails/stiles (e.g., at the end of the run next to our range). For those, my plan is to have the edge of the panel finish out flush with front of the door. Should I still use a 1/16" reveal there, it seems like 1/8" might make more sense.

My second question relates to the other side of those cabinets, which will have the shorter above range cabinets next to them, so I don't think a panel makes sense there [I have a few other cases like this, with only part of a cabinet side exposed].

I was planning on doing using cherry plywood, with some solid cherry on the front to finish the edge. I'm not sure if I should use that piece of cherry ply as the side of the box, which would mean that I'm not losing extra room for the applied panels (admittedly 3/4" isn't so bad). What I'm concerned about is (1) will it look funny to have the "frame" only on the outside edge; (2) will it matter that one side on the inside of the cabinet would be prefinished maple, but the other side would be cherry.

On the counterpoint, I think it might look a little bit odd to have a 3/4" strip of hardwood between the two doors (for the full size wall cabinet and the small above range cabinet, which will also be hiding the vent pipe).

Maybe it would be better to try laminating a 1/2" sheet of cherry to a 1/4" sheet of prefinished maple, but it seems like that might also be complicating things and asking for trouble.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or experiences you've got.

#1: Applied finish end panels should stick out 1" from the cabinet sides.

#2: 1/8" gap at FE panels, use the mid height hinge plate , and this door needs to be smaller by 1/8" to allow for this.

#3: At hoods I like to make the hood cabinet 1 1/2" wider and install FE panel under the hood cabinet, this insures you cover the door edges that may stick below the hood, so you maintain the same look of never seeing a door edge from the side.

#4: I carry that look to the cabinet to wall scribe strip as well , make a L shaped scribe with the bottom of the L make out of 5/4" thick stock , finished on one edge and one face , biscuit and glued to a 1/2" plywood piece 3" in depth that you screw into thru the inside of the cabinet after you've fit the scribe to the wall, rabbit the 5/4" piece as well so the part that fits to the wall is 5/16" ish thick , it's a lot easier to fit that to the wall than a full 1" thick piece.

#5: Inside corners are another place you can make a flush faced inside corner , same concept as the flush scribe, inside corners need to be at least 3" wide on both faces so the opposing drawer fronts , AND any door pulls or knobs clear one another.

Good luck.



You can see the flush scribe on the LH side of this cabinet.


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17016-1.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/sept17016-1.jpg.html)


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17010-2.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/sept17010-2.jpg.html)

[Wayne Lomman]

Charles, both Brian and Paul have the right ideas. Frameless cabinets is definitely the way to go. It's at least 30 years since anyone did any other type of kitchen in Australia. Cheers

[mreza Salav]

For the boxes next to range (where a side of cabinet will be visible) I use that side out of the ply as the doors (in our kitchen it was walnut while the rest of the box was pre-finished birch). Here is a photo when I was building/installing the range hood. You can see the two boxes next to it have one side out of walnut ply as the outside will have a visible area next to range hood.

345013345015345014

[Robert Engel]

I would make the end panel reveal 1/8". It a matter of preference.

For any end panel I would simply laminate a 1/4" cherry panel to a 1/2" maple.

Rather than solid cherry edging, I would use cherry iron on edge banding throughout.

[Dave Sabo]

Paul, why is the toekick not recessed on those cabinets? Have you considered using leveling legs instead of a frame base?

Also, why use side mounted drawer slides instead of undermounts?

These aren't criticisms, I'm just curious about why you've chosen those elements over something else.

[Paul Girouard]

Paul, why is the toekick not recessed on those cabinets? Have you considered using leveling legs instead of a frame base?

Also, why use side mounted drawer slides instead of undermounts?

These aren't criticisms, I'm just curious about why you've chosen those elements over something else.



It's a entertainment / TV cabinet , recessed into a alcove. So a more built -in look was desired.

We tried the Blum adjustable legs , and found keeping the toe space covers in place was a problem, to many recalls to reattach them. Cleaning people tend to bash into them and knock them off.

I built that cabinet 10 -12 years ago, undermount slides where just making it to our area, they're expensive , or at that time where double the cost , maybe more. I'm still not a big fan of the under mount slides

[Dave Sabo]

Interesting.

Side mounts like those are capable of holding a lot more weight than undermounts - so quite desirable for an entertainment unit. Good quality undermount are about $25ish a set in bulk, I've no idea on what std. duty side mounts cost. , I'd guess about ten dollars less.

[Paul Girouard]

Interesting.

Side mounts like those are capable of holding a lot more weight than undermounts - so quite desirable for an entertainment unit. Good quality undermount are about $25ish a set in bulk, I've no idea on what std. duty side mounts cost. , I'd guess about ten dollars less.

Here's the unit installed along with the very heavy old style flat screen TV , I'm glad those are a thing of the past!


KV side mounts I think I pay $7.00 a set, so a lot less than the under mounts, 100LBS rated IIRC

I'm not a fan of any of the soft close stuff , I like the "thump" a Blum self closing hinge makes, and I know my current cabinet guys have issues with the soft close slides at time. Granite dust for that part of the install can cause issues .



http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/July3rd2.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/July3rd2.jpg.html)

[Paul Girouard]

The house was eclectic , a remodel.
We tore out the old P.Lam counters and installed Jatoba tops in the kitchen.


I made the old oven cabinet into a glass china cabinet of sorts :


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/July3rd8.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/July3rd8.jpg.html)


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/July18th.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/July18th.jpg.html)


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17006-3.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/sept17006-3.jpg.html)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Sept2620077.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/Sept2620077.jpg.html)



http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Nov520077.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/Nov520077.jpg.html)


A lot of work on top of 20 year old crappy Oak cabinets, but what ever the client wants.

[Paul Girouard]

Sorry to sully your thread with some what off topic stuff , but it answered the questions I was asked.

[Paul Girouard]

The flush scribe looks :


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Nov191.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/Nov191.jpg.html)


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Nov192.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/Nov192.jpg.html)


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Nov19.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/Nov19.jpg.html)

[Paul Girouard]

Another nice look , IMO, where the FE panel closes off the toe space :


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Aug232008.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/Aug232008.jpg.html)


Using 5/4" thick plinth stock to close off the toe kick works well to , and this is a really nice way to work the back and ends ona island cabinet , bring the furinture look into the mix , and as far as installing the island it really makes the site work simpler, just make the plinth stock a 1/2" higher than you think you need , rabbit it to create a easy to scribe to the floor for the out of level the floor will have. This really saved us a lot of site time when we / I came up with this detail for island base trim.


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Mar222008BobGraceTVcabinets9.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/Mar222008BobGraceTVcabinets9.jpg.html)

Inside corner detail:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sideviewchurchoffice.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/sideviewchurchoffice.jpg.html)

[Paul Girouard]

Applied FE panel. :



http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/churchoffice.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/PEG688/media/churchoffice.jpg.html)

[Charles P. Wright]

I know it's been a while since I posted this, but thank you Brian, Paul, mreza and others. Paul, I especially appreciate all the pictures you posted. I'm still thinking about what to do exactly, but there are definitely three good options to choose from here (wood-on-wood veneer over single sided prefinished; separate applied edge and a wider range hood; or just use cherry plywood for that one side).