Quick sharpening question - spindle gouges

[Frederick Skelly]

Hello folks!
So my new HSS Harbor Freight lathe tools arrived and I sharpened them up. I found sharpening the 1/4" spindle gouge to 25* to be very challenging. I'm embarrassed to tell you that - sigh - I ground more than half inch off that tool before I got the hang of it and could produce a single, fairly continuous bevel across its width. (I was using a CBN on a low speed grinder.)

Is it normal for a spindle gouge to be harder to learn to sharpen than other tools? Or was this perhaps harder because it's a small gouge - that is, would it have been easier to learn on a 1/2" than a 1/4"? I ask that because it was pretty straightforward to grind the wide roughing gouges even though they had the curved "American" cutting edge.

Local turning club meets soon so I'll get some hands on with a skilled turner. But it's still fun to try and figure it out myself. (Dang good thing that's an inexpensive spindle gouge though. :) )

Thank you!
Fred

[Dwight Rutherford]

Are you using a jig (Wolverine or other) to sharpen or are you free-hand sharpening? New CBN wheels? (New wheels are aggressive )What grit? (180 or higher are best for sharpening).
When I first started sharpening I applied way too much pressure on the tool to the grinder. Learned to just "kiss" the tool to the wheel.
When you attend your meeting, have an experienced turner show you how to sharpen.

[John K Jordan]

Grinding by hand is possible but a jig is far easier, gives a more repeatable (and professional looking) edge, and takes off very little material each time.

You can buy a Wolverine and the Vari-grind jig for spindle and bowl gouges, or for almost nothing you can make something simple that will work. With a jig set the same each time, very little metal us removed. With a slow-speed water wheel on a Tormek only a few thousands of an inch are removed each sharpening.

CBN wheels can be very aggressive, especially when new. When I use the Wolverine jig on the slow speed grinder I use a 600 grit wheel and, as Dwight mentioned, a very light touch.

I always use some jig for spindle gouges. I sometimes grind bowl gouges freehand and grind roughing gouges, skew chisels, parting tools, bedan, point tools, and scrapers freehand.

But you did it right, starting with cheap tools. Some people quickly grind away very expensive tools when learning to sharpen!

JKJ

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you guys. Yeah, my cbn is fairly new and it is 120 grit. Definitely too much pressure!

I think Rowley's book had a plan for a jig. Sounds like I better go look it up. :)

The good news is that I was able to make a nicely shaped handle and to get it reasonably smooth and "rut free" without using sandpaper. I carefully smoothed it using a 1" skew. That tool will take time to master for sure, but I think my familiarity with how to gently shave with a bench or paring chisel helped me the first time through.

Practice, practice, practice....

Thanks again,
Fred

[Bob Bergstrom]

When sharpening small gouges that can disappear so quickly, I turn the grinder on, and then shut it off before applying the tool's edge. If you push too hard the grinder will slow quickly. Light pressure will keep the wheel going while allowing more time to sharpen without grinding it away.

[John K Jordan]

...I carefully smoothed it using a 1" skew. That tool will take time to master for sure, but I think my familiarity with how to gently shave with a bench or paring chisel helped me the first time through.


When I started woodturning everyone told me to stay away from the evil skew. It will bite, ruin your work, save it for scraping and opening paint cans.

But when I read the books ALL of the experts were using the skew so I was determined to learn how to use it if it killed me. Today the skew is one of my favorite tools!

The skew is also the tool I start with when I teach beginners. I mount a pre-rounded blank, hand them a sharp skew, show them how to present it, and let them find the cut while turning the lathe BY HAND. In a minute or two they can make shavings so we turn on the lathe, slow at first, then faster. Oddly enough, with this progression catches are not common.

1/2 hour of practice and they are smoothing cylinders and tapers. We then go to roughing gouge and spindle gouge. These are easy at this point since the simpler skew taught them about the bevel, the edge, and how to control the cut. Then we usually learn v-grooves with the skew.

JKJ

[Brice Rogers]

The benefit of using a Wolverine or Ellsworth jig is that it is very repeatable, so you only doing mild sharpenings and not major regrinds. Check out Captain Eddie Castelien's $2 Ellsworth jig on Youtube. I made one. Also, if you google it you'll find a bunch of other plans. All are basically similar. It can be made of steel, PVC pipe, wood, etc. It is very easy to make. Or pay 50-75 bucks and buy one already built.

I use mine periodically to sharpen my bowl gouges. When I think that it is time to do a mild resharpening, I usually just use a diamond (card) file. That works well, since the grinder leaves a concave surface. When I'm using the diamond file, I'm just touching the outer edges. When it starts to look like the surface is no longer concave, then it is time to use the grinder again.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks again guys.

John: After your encouragement, I used the skew again at length, and the finish that came off of it was phenomenal. If it wasnt for a few rookie tool marks, that piece wouldnt even need sanding - its as smooth as what a smoothing plane can do on flatwork. Still not fluent in skew, but I clearly see the point you are making.

Bob: your grinder off trick works! Thank you.

Brice: The diamond card file idea occurred to me but I hadnt tried it. That worked for me. And I took your tip and searched for Capn Eddie and others. I hopre to make the jigs I need this afternoon. If I can get a "good enough" grind, you'll have saved me $200 between the Oneway and Varigrind. Or at least let me defer them until I have my arms around this a bit better. Thanks!

Fred

[Mike Peace]

My experience with both sets of HF tools was that the round spindle gouge was not heat treated properly and would not hold an edge and the tip ground away very quickly. The other tools in the two 8 piece sets did not have that problem. I have read many complaints about the HF spindle gouges 1/4 with light handle and 3/8 red handle having same issues.

[Frederick Skelly]

My experience with both sets of HF tools was that the round spindle gouge was not heat treated properly and would not hold an edge and the tip ground away very quickly. The other tools in the two 8 piece sets did not have that problem. I have read many complaints about the HF spindle gouges 1/4 with light handle and 3/8 red handle having same issues.

Ok. That explains some of it then. Thanks Mike.

I have heat treated O1 but Im not sure I have what I need to heat treat HSS. Might still be fun to try!

Fred

[Brice Rogers]

Ok. That explains some of it then. Thanks Mike.

I have heat treated O1 but Im not sure I have what I need to heat treat HSS. Might still be fun to try!

Fred

First things first.

First learn how to resharpen without doing a lot of grinding.
Second, you can easily check the hardness of your new HF tools with a file. Try the file test close to the cutting end. Some manufacturers harden the cutting end but leave the other end soft. If a tool is hard, then the file should just "skitter" off the tool. If it makes a notch, then it is soft. If it turns out that the end of the tool is not hard, you can still use it but you'll need to resharpen more often.

Since you have hardened tools before, this would be similar. You don't have a lot to lose. That is assuming that the steel is hardenable. But it probably is. Basically (the short-hand version), you harden it to the Curie temp (non-magnetic or about orange/yellow hot indoors) and then quench it. Probably in oil and swish it around to cool it quickly. Then re-do the file test. If it is now hard, then you are making progress. Many people will then go through a tempering process to remove some brittleness. I have a couple of small cutters (made from a chunk of file) that I left dead-hard and I don't need to resharpen very frequently.

If you re-harden, you might get away with wrapping a wet rag at the point where the metal goes into the wood to keep the wood from smoking during the hardening process.. Or you could make a new handle and remove the metal part from the old wood handle.

[Frederick Skelly]

First things first.

First learn how to resharpen without doing a lot of grinding.
Second, you can easily check the hardness of your new HF tools with a file. Try the file test close to the cutting end. Some manufacturers harden the cutting end but leave the other end soft. If a tool is hard, then the file should just "skitter" off the tool. If it makes a notch, then it is soft. If it turns out that the end of the tool is not hard, you can still use it but you'll need to resharpen more often.

Since you have hardened tools before, this would be similar. You don't have a lot to lose. That is assuming that the steel is hardenable. But it probably is. Basically (the short-hand version), you harden it to the Curie temp (non-magnetic or about orange/yellow hot indoors) and then quench it. Probably in oil and swish it around to cool it quickly. Then re-do the file test. If it is now hard, then you are making progress. Many people will then go through a tempering process to remove some brittleness. I have a couple of small cutters (made from a chunk of file) that I left dead-hard and I don't need to resharpen very frequently.

If you re-harden, you might get away with wrapping a wet rag at the point where the metal goes into the wood to keep the wood from smoking during the hardening process.. Or you could make a new handle and remove the metal part from the old wood handle.

Thanks Brice. I agree that learning to sharpen properly is the highest priority.

Also appreciated the advice on hardening. I was concerned that perhaps I couldnt get HSS hot enough with just a MAPP gas torch and I'd forgotten the file trick.

I appreciate your advice.
Fred

[Brice Rogers]

Frederick,
If you can get the metal (probably HSS = high speed steel or high carbon steel) up to a yellow hot, or more precisely, at the point where it loses its magnetism, it is time to quench - - immediately. I think that a MAPP torch would work, at least on the sharp tool end. It is actually a good idea not to harden the tang or the non-cutting end as it will get britter and could snap. If it takes too long to get to the Curie point (yellow hot), consider making a tunnel to retain the torch heat. I've used a tube of steel with fiberglass wrapped on the outside, but something insulating like fire brick (or best: kiln brick) would be better. You stick the tool into the tunnel with the sharp end closest to the torch. The heat from the torch is pretty much retained.

I typically harden small things like insert cutters. Similar to carbide ones, but just high carbon steel (think: old rusty file). I also made a tool similar to a "termite" hollower. They are small enough that I can use just a propane torch. I use old motor oil for the quench. Be careful though because sometimes it flashes and usually gives off some acrid smoke for a short time.

You may also want to anneal the tool after hardening. This removes some of the brittleness with only a slight decrease in hardness. You would shine up the hardened tool with some sandpaper. You need to remove the black surface so that you can do the next step. Then you carefully apply a little heat from the propane torch until it just starts to discolor to a straw color. That is probably around 300 to 400 degrees. Google annealing. You could also heat it in a toaster oven or your wife's oven. If you heat it too much, it'll turn from straw to orange, brown, blue..... At that point you have removed a great deal of the hardness. So you don't want to do that. Good luck. Report back on this post if you find that your tool passes the file test or it you decide to harden it.

[John K Jordan]

...If you re-harden, you might get away with wrapping a wet rag at the point where the metal goes into the wood to keep the wood from smoking during the hardening process.. Or you could make a new handle and remove the metal part from the old wood handle.

If the tool is epoxied into a handle it can generally be removed by heating the shaft a little and pulling/twisting. I've done this several times when I wanted the tool unhandled to use in an adapter on a custom handle.

BTW, besides the wet rag technique, another heat sink I've used is to wrap some soft aluminum or copper around the metal and grip it tight in a vise and/or with big visegrips. For heat treating and annealing though I'd try to remove the metal from the handle.

JKJ

[Frederick Skelly]

Brice and John, thaks again. I'll keep you posted.
Best regards,
Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

I just wanted to thank all of you who have given me sharpening advice over the last week.

Last night I made a Wolvering jig knockoff. It works great for my roughing gouges. Perfect single bevels with sparks coming off the cutting edge.

Tonight I made Cap'n Eddie Castelin's $2 thumbnail sharpening jig. Wow! It sharpened that HF 1/4" spindle gouge right up. Beautiful 30* bevel, just like in the pictures. No drama. Took off hardly any steel. Nice sparks coming off the cutting edge.

Please accept my thanks for all your help getting to this point folks!

Edit: I ran a good file over that 1/4" spindle gouge before I resharpened it tonite. It didn't quite skate off, but it got VERY little bite. I think I'll leave it as is for now. Thanks for all the advice on how to test that hardness and re-harden if necessary!

Best regards,
Fred