Mortise Chisel ERGONOMICS

[Prashun Patel]

I have a set of Narex mortise chisels that I'm thinking to upgrade. They have served well. I have no issue with the steel; I don't mortise so often that they require inordinate sharpening.

What I find objectionable is the hoop and the handle. The heel frays and the hoop never fit well; it spins. Is it supposed to? Also the handle is just a little too awkward and doesn't have a good feel when held firm for mallet striking. I feel silly even writing that. How precious!

Anyway, I am considering one of the next-level-up chisels. I am sure they will ALL have good enough steel for me. But the handle styles are markedly different.

The Lie Nielsens appear dainty (as are the bench chisels). Is that handle prone to a mallet slipping when struck?

The Veritas' appear long. I'd figure this would impede the ability to reset the chisel with each strike.

The Ray Iles look like they're very hefty and shorter, which instinctively feels appropriate for this task.

Japanese chisels? I tried Brian Holcombe's and they were wonderful but my success with them might be attributed to HIS having sharpening them. It's a hard world to navigate too.

I don't have ready access to try any of these, so advice is appreciated.

[Patrick Chase]

I have a set of Narex mortise chisels that I'm thinking to upgrade. They have served well. I have no issue with the steel; I don't mortise so often that they require inordinate sharpening.

What I find objectionable is the hoop and the handle. The heel frays and the hoop never fit well; it spins. Is it supposed to? Also the handle is just a little too awkward and doesn't have a good feel when held firm for mallet striking. I feel silly even writing that. How precious!

Mine do the same thing. I think it's a consequence of the price point. When you're making chisels that cheaply you can't afford to adjust each chisel to its hoop the way you would when setting hoops on Japanese chisels, and that means you have to allow a certain amount of slop for manufacturing variation and wood movement. This is one of those case where you have to decide how much you're willing to pay to fix "functionally unimportant" but annoying gremlins like that. I actually find the Narex handle to be ergonomically OK, but that's just me.



Anyway, I am considering one of the next-level-up chisels. I am sure they will ALL have good enough steel for me. But the handle styles are markedly different.

The Lie Nielsens appear dainty (as are the bench chisels). Is that handle prone to a mallet slipping when struck?

I've only used those at a hand tool event. The thing to be aware of is that they're built to a different historical pattern than the others. The L-Ns are registered sash mortise chisels, meaning that the sides of the blade are parallel, and the blade necks down below the socket as opposed to carrying its full cross-section all the way back to the bolster. I'll come back to the "dainty" thing below.



The Veritas' appear long. I'd figure this would impede the ability to reset the chisel with each strike.

I've now used the Veritas. They are indeed long, but they're also extremely heavily built (more so than Narex and much more than L-N). They look like they evolved from sash mortise chisels in pattern, but they have 99% of the solidity of pigstickers. I liked them and didn't find the length to be an impediment. As you'd expect they're impeccably made.



The Ray Iles look like they're very hefty and shorter, which instinctively feels appropriate for this task..

I have the RIs and love them, though once again it's a matter of what pattern you want (sash mortise vs pigsticker).

In terms of solidity the L-Ns are the lightest, followed by Narex, and then Veritas and RI are both brick-house-solid with RI being maybe a bit beefier. Where you can feel this is in impact transmission. The lighter files feel a bit "springy" to me and seem to dull the mallet blow a bit, while the heavier ones transmit it straight through to the wood. A while back I honed my Narex and RI 5/16" chisels with identical angles and timed myself mortising in hard maple. I was >30% faster with the RI, and I think that comes down to solidity. The Veritas chisels feel similar in that respect.

[lowell holmes]

I have both Narex and Ray Iles mortise chisels.

All I can say there are mortise chisels and there are RAY ILES MORTISE CHISELS.

I also have Lie Nielsen mortise chisels, although I consider them to be sash chisels.

I also have heavy square sided chisels I used for mortise chisels before buying the Lie Nielsen chisels.

I learned to chop mortises in a Paul Sellers class using bevel edge Blue Chips.

I recently needed a 15/16" mortises, so I ground an old 1" bevel edge chisel to 15/16" and chopped them.
They were through mortises on chair arms. I made a mistake on the arms and didn't have room for 1" mortises.

[James Pallas]

Prashun, You are an experienced woodworker. Why not knock the handle off of one of your narex chisels and experiment with making one for yourself. You may get just what you want.
Jim

[Brian Holcombe]

Prashun,

If you don't mind taking the effort;

http://www.jimbodetools.com/Mortise-c200/

Jim has some really nice chisels in this stock, it would be up there on the list for me if I were looking for an alternative to Japanese.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Prashun,

If you don't mind taking the effort;

http://www.jimbodetools.com/Mortise-c200/

Jim has some really nice chisels in this stock, it would be up there on the list for me if I were looking for an alternative to Japanese.

I came here to post basically this. I looked at all of the options a while ago, and did not think any of them were clearly better than the antiques. If I had to buy new I would have gone with the Iles. For the price of one Iles chisel though, I got two antique Sorbys in great condition, and had money left over.

[steven c newman]

344955
What I use all the time...take your pick.....

[Prashun Patel]

Steve, if you had to reach for just one which one and why?

Brian, Thanks, there's more pig stickers there than you can shake an stick at ! I think I'll get one of those to see how I like the ergonomics. Something about holding the handle lower to the work appeals to me. Less leverage for prying, but more control for placing the chisel. I also find that as I get my chopping chops, I am doing less prying to rip chips loose, and more ejection of already loose chips. So I don't think leverage is needed here.

[steven c newman]

The two in the middle, mainly due to that mallet they are laying on. Haven't had any time with the japanese 12mm one...yet. The skinny ones are more for cleaning up corners and finger joints. The workhorses are the middle two. 1/4" New Haven Edge tool, and the 3/16" ...Stanley I think, might be a Buck Brothers like the 3/8" one.

[Mike Henderson]

Prashun, You are an experienced woodworker. Why not knock the handle off of one of your narex chisels and experiment with making one for yourself. You may get just what you want.
Jim

Yep, I was going to say the same thing. I have antique pigstickers and I had to make new handles for most of them. They're easy handles to make - maybe easier than socket chisel handles.

Mike

[paul cottingham]

I have a Ray Iles pig sticker that is my go to. Unfortunately, it's a 5/16, and I wish it was a 1/4. I'm not an anal woodworker, as I've said repeatedly here, but in a piece of 3/4" stock, it bugs me. I'm going to try the new Lee Valley 1/4" mortise chisel. It looks stout, i have a store local to me, and I like their steel, and their handles.

of course, it's going to take a while to save up for one.....

[Patrick Chase]

I have a Ray Iles pig sticker that is my go to. Unfortunately, it's a 5/16, and I wish it was a 1/4. I'm not an anal woodworker, as I've said repeatedly here, but in a piece of 3/4" stock, it bugs me. I'm going to try the new Lee Valley 1/4" mortise chisel. It looks stout, i have a store local to me, and I like their steel, and their handles.

of course, it's going to take a while to save up for one.....

From a joint strength perspective the optimum tenon thickness in 3/4" stock is 3/8", assuming you cut everything perfectly. 1/4" is an "unbalanced" configuration, in the sense that the tenon will fail long before the mortise walls. Put another way, it puts too much strength in the mortise walls and too little in the tenon.

I use 5/16 as a compromise between optimality (which requires a thick tenon) and my own sense of proportion (I subjectively prefer thinner ones).

[Phil Mueller]

Patrick, I've always tried to go by these traditional "rules"...(Chris Schwarz blog):

Tenon thickness: This one gets debated a lot, and with good reason. Traditional texts say the tenon’s thickness should be one-third the thickness of the stock being mortised (an important distinction). So if you are joining two pieces of 3/4″material for a door, the tenon should be 1/4" thick. If you are joining a 7/8″-thick apron to a 1-1/2″-thick table leg, the tenon should be 1/2″ thick.
Some modern texts say the tenon should be one-half the thickness being mortised , not one-third. My opinion is that this difference relates to the tools being used. If you mortise by hand, with chisels, the one-third rules makes more sense in my experience. Using a 3/8″-wide mortise chisel on 3/4″-thick material invites destruction in many cabinet woods.

[Derek Cohen]

Prashun, You are an experienced woodworker. Why not knock the handle off of one of your narex chisels and experiment with making one for yourself. You may get just what you want.
Jim

James is quite right. First try making a new handle.

While I prefer the blades of the new Veritas mortice chisels, I am still very much used to the handles of the oval bolstered types. I cannot speak for the production Veritas handles, which are slimmer than the ones I have (one of my recommendations to LV, probably along with others, was to slim them down). The new handles are , nevertheless, comfortable and stout, but the advantage of the oval handles is that the grip is adjustable (slide your hand up or down to fit), and the oval is more directional.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Mortice-chisels_zpsqhayxkhv.jpg

RI, vintage Ward, and Veritas preproduction - all the same size.

Regards from Perth

Deek

[Ron Kanter]

Sent you a PM about a test run

[lowell holmes]

If the issue at hand when you need to chop a mortise is not having a proper size chisel for the mortise your making, you grab a bevel edge chisel and chop it.

If being fashionable with the proper chisel, it's another story. We all like having the proper chisel, but in reality you can chop mortises with bevel edge chisels if need be. :)

I love my Ray Iles and Lie Nielsen chisels, but I didn't have mortise chisels for years after starting to chop mortises. Practice chopping mortises using the Maynard method using Blue Chips.

[Tony Shea]

I am going to go the opposite direction just to make your decision a little more difficult. I personally love my LN mortise chisels. I gravitate towards these over my RI pig stickers or my Hirsch mortising chisels. For the size of work I typically do I much prefer the dainty size of the LN's. I also really enjoy the square sides which I find helps keep my mortise sides crisp and square and have never had the problem of getting a chisel stuck in the work. I can really blaze through a mortise with these chisels contrary to what one might think with these. I pound extremely hard on these handles and have barely made a tiny dent on these hornbeam handles so there is absolutely no issue with their strength

Having said all this I also really like my RI pig stickers and you won't go wrong here. They are a just very large. No matter what brand of these higher end chisels you choose I think you'll be plenty happy and will learn to love them.

[keith wootton]

i have a 1/2" hirsh that is a brute, very different from the chisels you mention. you can wail away at it,all day long, no problem. i like the big handle, comfortable to hold for the long haul. keith

[lowell holmes]

Just for fun, download "Mortise by Hand" from Popular Woodworking and then read "The Maynard Technique".

Then chop some mortises using Paul Sellers method with a bevel edge chisel.

You will be surprised.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks everyone. Lowell, I have read all of those articles and feel comfortable with chipping a mortise. I am just looking for more comfort.

[lowell holmes]

Prashun,

I did not have you in mind when I made the post. I was thinking some of the readers probably had never seen the article and when I read it some years ago, it really stuck with me.

[steven c newman]

Easiest way to find out what fits YOUR hands? Go out and buy some "Play Do" and mold it to fit your grip. Use that as a pattern for your handles.

[Prashun Patel]

I have a question about English style mortise chisels. Don't these pig-stickers have tapered sides? It appears they are more suited for blasting out big, deep mortises, not for making perfectly square sides. Is this true and does it make a difference in the finish quality of the mortise side walls? That is, do these require clean up paring?

[Jim Koepke]

I have a question about English style mortise chisels. Don't these pig-stickers have tapered sides? It appears they are more suited for blasting out big, deep mortises, not for making perfectly square sides. Is this true and does it make a difference in the finish quality of the mortise side walls? That is, do these require clean up paring?

The taper is full width on the side away from the bevel. As the chisel is driven into the work, the bevel drives it toward this side breaking out the waste to the full width of the chisel.

As to finish quality of the side walls, mine are usually pretty good. Once the joint is assembled nobody will see it anyway. If a perfectly smooth side is wanted for the mortise then a paring chisel and a few strokes will have it looking fine.

jtk

[Marty Schlosser]

I've a set of Veritas mortiser chisels and find them excellent in most regards... except for the same issue I have with every chisel I own: that the handle is a bit large for my small hands. Simple to correct; rework the original handles and voila, the fix is done.

The Veritas pig-stickers are excellent both in terms of quality and value, especially in PM-V11.

[lowell holmes]

When I bought my Ray Iles Pigstickers, I bought 3 of them, 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2. I have a Narex 1/8" pigsticker as well.

[Patrick Chase]

I have a question about English style mortise chisels. Don't these pig-stickers have tapered sides? It appears they are more suited for blasting out big, deep mortises, not for making perfectly square sides. Is this true and does it make a difference in the finish quality of the mortise side walls? That is, do these require clean up paring?

English pigstickers like the RIs are tapered from back->top, as are the Veritas chisels. They're both constant-width from tip->bolster. The amount of taper is ~1 deg, so the change in width due to rotation is insignificant at 0.015%. They can both cut straight, uniform mortises.

The Narex chisels are another matter, as those are tapered from tip->bolster as well. It takes a little more care to cut a straight mortise with those.

[Warren Mickley]

I have a question about English style mortise chisels. Don't these pig-stickers have tapered sides? It appears they are more suited for blasting out big, deep mortises, not for making perfectly square sides. Is this true and does it make a difference in the finish quality of the mortise side walls? That is, do these require clean up paring?

We could argue about the heavy English joiner's mortise chisels, and about various tapers, but if you are not getting a nice clean mortise right off the chisel something is very wrong. As Patrick suggests a small taper has not much affect on mortise quality.

When using a mortise chisel, it is finesse and technique that result in speed. "Blasting", "bashing","abuse" etc, are counterproductive.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks guys. Thanks, Warren. I think that's the light slap in the face I need.