Very Coarse Crystolon / Siox Stones Guzzling Up Oil?

[Luke Dupont]

I have a few coarse synthetic stones that, if I put oil on, instantly soak it right up and become bone dry. This is even after having put quite a lot of oil on the stones hoping they would eventually fill up.

I did soak these stones to remove the old oil when I got them. Do I need to soak them once more in oil to prevent this, or is this just a characteristic of really coarse stones? Would thicker mineral oil work best for this?

[Stewie Simpson]

Luke; did you mean to say Coarse Crystolon / Alox Stones.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

I have a few coarse synthetic stones that, if I put oil on, instantly soak it right up and become bone dry. This is even after having put quite a lot of oil on the stones hoping they would eventually fill up.

I did soak these stones to remove the old oil when I got them. Do I need to soak them once more in oil to prevent this, or is this just a characteristic of really coarse stones? Would thicker mineral oil work best for this?

Err, what did you soak them in?

Synthetic stones are porous, and the manufacturers "fill" them with petroleum jelly when they're made to prevent them from soaking up oil as you describe. It sounds as though somebody soaked those stones in a solvent at some point, and dissolved that fill.

The usual recommendation in this situation is to boil the stones in Vaseline, in your oven (I am not joking). Mineral oil won't do much since it will run right back out. You need something that's runny enough to impregnate the stones but that thickens enough to stay there once you're done. Hot Vaseline fits the bill. Just be very careful when you do it.

[Luke Dupont]

Luke; did you mean to say Coarse Crystolon / Alox Stones.

Stewie;

Not sure what they are, honestly. They're not like the India stones that I've used.
One is less porous and a lighter grey. The other is darker and coarser.
Both are somewhat more reminiscent of the cheap grey dollar stones you'll find, though the darker one is less so.
I'm still not entirely sure what is what when it comes to synthetic oil-stones.

[Patrick Chase]

Not sure what they are, honestly. They're not like the India stones that I've used.
One is less porous and a lighter grey. The other is darker and coarser.
Both are somewhat more reminiscent of the cheap grey dollar stones you'll find, though the darker one is less so.
I'm still not entirely sure what is what when it comes to synthetic oil-stones.

Those are probably Crystolons (Silicon Carbide). Do they look like the 2 sides of this combo stone: https://www.amazon.com/Norton-Crystolon-Combination-Oilstone-Coarse/dp/B0001MSA5Y

[Luke Dupont]

I soaked them in warm water with dishwashing detergent. I think there may have been degreaser as well? The stones were covered in old oil/gunk, so...

Yikes. That sounds like quite a bit of trouble, and a bit expensive. Thanks, though. I may give it a try, I guess. Weighing the effort vs reward, as these were just part of a batch of cheap second hand stones that I picked up.

[Luke Dupont]

Those are probably Crystolons (Silicon Carbide). Do they look like the 2 sides of this combo stone: https://www.amazon.com/Norton-Crystolon-Combination-Oilstone-Coarse/dp/B0001MSA5Y

Yep. They're in a different shape, granted; the coarse one is in a typical 3/4"x2"x6" shape, where as the medium coarse/lighter one is in a 1"x1"x6" block, for knife sharpening, I assume.

I did pick up a cheap Silicon Carbide stone before, and whilst I don't think I tried it with oil, I remember that it soaked up water like a sponge as well. It was the first sharpening stone I bought, and I quickly abandoned it as it just filled up with swarf and wasn't flat to begin with. Was thinking of giving these a try again with oil now - but I don't have my old stone to compare to, just these.

So, as I understand it, Fine and Medium India stones are Aluminum Oxide. These grey stones / Crystolons are Silicon Carbide. And Coarse India Stones are...?

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Luke; the following may be of assistance. https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/What-is-an-India-Stone-W67.aspx

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/What-Grit-is-a-Norton-Fine-Medium-and-Coarse-W171.aspx

Lubricate the stone

For efficient sharpening, lubricating the stone with oil is efficient to float away metal and abrasive dust that will otherwise clog up and neutralize the stone. Norton Oil, specially formulated for sharpening stones, makes every stone work better to do a more efficient job.

Most Norton India and Crystolon stones are pre-filled with lubricating oil at the factory-a unique Norton quality feature that lets you put the stone to work right away without pre-soaking. Even with oil pre-filling, be sure to apply lubricant every time the stone is used- it's vital to continued good stone performance. http://www.knifecenter.com/info/sharpening-with-norton

Stewie;

[bridger berdel]

Vaseline isn't expensive. I have toyed with the ides of filling a cheap stone with parraffin wax, just to see how it performs.

[Patrick Chase]

Vaseline isn't expensive. I have toyed with the ides of filling a cheap stone with parraffin wax, just to see how it performs.

You'd have to get it hotter than Vaseline to saturate the stone, and it might have more tendency to load or "gunk up" the surface during subsequent use. The beauty of Vaseline is that it's basically the least viscous petroleum product that will stay in the stone, so it has a minimal impact on subsequent use and lubrication.

[Stewie Simpson]

All sharpening stones should be lubricated while in use, so the pores can float off and not clog the pores of the stone. Special honing oil is available, but kerosene works very well as a lubricant. In an emergency, even water may be used as a lubricant. If a stone cuts too rapidly, it can be tempered by soaking it in a pan of hot petroleum jelly, filling the pores of the stone with a thick lubricant. If the pores have been filled due to improper lubrication, clean your stone by soaking it in kerosene, then wash off the surface with a brush soaked in kerosene. This technique can even be used to reclaim almost worthless old stones that most people would consider useless or have already discarded! http://www.endtimesreport.com/preservationoils.html

[Patrick Chase]

If a stone cuts too rapidly, it can be tempered by soaking it in a pan of hot petroleum jelly, filling the pores of the stone with a thick lubricant.

There are a couple problems with that quotation:

1. Norton at least pre-fills their stones with petroleum jelly at the factory, as mentioned in the quotation you previously posted in #8. By soaking in hot Vaseline you're just restoring that, not "tempering" (at least relative to factory condition).

2. Vaseline does indeed fill the pores, but it isn't thick enough to materially slow honing. Try smearing some on the surface of a stone, wiping off the excess such that it's in the surface pores but not on the surface, putting some of your usual lubricant on the stone, and honing. I've done this with a Crystolon and I couldn't tell any difference (perhaps because the stone was already full of petroleum jelly).

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; if you re-read #8, I made no mention of Norton using petroleum jelly to prefill their stones. My quote came direct from the Norton Website.


Most Norton India and Crystolon stones are pre-filled with lubricating oil at the factory-a unique Norton quality feature that lets you put the stone to work right away without pre-soaking.http://www.knifecenter.com/info/sharpening-with-Norton

I have no idea where you source most of the information you post.

It cant all be from practical experience.

Stewie;

[Warren Mickley]

I have the box from a Carborundum stone my father bought around 1950. The directions on the box say:

If stone cuts too rapidly, temper by soaking the stone in a pan of hot petroleum jelly, filling the pores of the stone.

I remember asking my father what "temper" meant around 1960. The Carborundum Co. silicon carbide stones predated Norton's Crystolon stones by about twenty years. Forty years ago the Carborundum stones were a little softer and cut more rapidly than Crystolon. Today Carborundum and Norton are both owned by St. Gobain.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; if you re-read #8, I made no mention of Norton using petroleum jelly to prefill their stones. My quote came direct from the Norton Website.

http://www.knifecenter.com/info/sharpening-with-Norton

I have no idea where you source most of the information you post.

It cant all be from practical experience.

Stewie;

Petroleum jelly is "an oil", so the quote you posted partially supports what I said, though I was admittedly more specific than it.

I don't remember where I heard that Norton uses a petroleum jelly to be honest as it was many years ago. It can't be mineral oil or else it would just run out for exactly the same reason that Luke's oil keeps disappearing, so it has to be a grease, jelly, or wax. I have in fact tried the simple experiment I suggested, the first time I was trying to decide whether to fill a stone that was soaking up oil. You should try it too - there's no need to wonder about how much vaseline will "slow" your stone's cutting when you can quickly test it.

Since you seem to be the final arbiter of all that is true, what are they using to prefill their stones?

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; if you re-read #8, I made no mention of Norton using petroleum jelly to prefill their stones. My quote came direct from the Norton Website.

http://www.knifecenter.com/info/sharpening-with-Norton

I have no idea where you source most of the information you post.

It cant all be from practical experience.

Stewie;

As mentioned above I have filled a Crystolon with Vaseline in the past, so that much is practical experience, but I've found one of the places where I got the idea.

FWW July/Aug 1993, pp 72-75, "A New Angle on Whetstones". It sayeth:

"If your man-made stone seems to con-
tinuously absorb oil, it means your stone
wasn't filled. Filling is a process of baking
in a petroleum jelly-like grease, which
makes it easier to keep a coat of oil on the
surface of the stone. If your stone isn't
filled, you can let it soak in an oil bath un-
til bubbles stop rising from the stone, or
you can try baking some petroleum jelly
into your stone in your own oven. Im-
merse the stone in petroleum jelly and
then heat it for about an hour at 200 °F. Re-
move the stone and let it cool. Don't try
this with a natural stone because the heat
will destroy it."

I know I've seen another reference that states that Norton fills with jelly/grease in manufacturing, but I can't find it.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; did you note of the comments made by Warren Mickley in post #14. Here's a reminder.



I have the box from a Carborundum stone my father bought around 1950. The directions on the box say:

If stone cuts too rapidly, temper by soaking the stone in a pan of hot petroleum jelly, filling the pores of the stone.

I remember asking my father what "temper" meant around 1960. The Carborundum Co. silicon carbide stones predated Norton's Crystolon stones by about twenty years. Forty years ago the Carborundum stones were a little softer and cut more rapidly than Crystolon. Today Carborundum and Norton are both owned by St. Gobain.

[Luke Dupont]

Stewie, I appreciate the helpful intentions, but...

Patrick's solution addresses my problem.
Yours does not (if you are arguing against using vaseline or some equivelent).

I know to use oil on my stones. My problem is that they (well, the two particular ones in question) continuously soak up the oil like a sponge and immediately become bone dry, no matter how much oil I put on them. Patrick's answer provides a logical solution that has yet to be ruled out.

Logic trumps any specs or manufacturer advice that you can find. Manufacturers do not include all possible relevant information in their product's description. Sometimes, for whatever reason, a stone may be in a condition which is less than optimal, and un-predicted or predictable but simply unaddressed. In that case, one has to use make a logical hypothesis, and test it. Moreover, frankly, manufacturers are usually far too conservative and narrow when it comes to advice regarding the best use of their product, because they know that people can be irresponsible or incompetent and don't want to be blamed for it. Baking a stone in vaseline definitely is not something that a manufacturer would recommend for liability reasons, even if it is a perfectly valid solution.

I can appreciate your point that it may possibly inhibit the cutting action, but currently, I cannot even get oil to stay on the stone long enough to carry the metal particles away, and it's the metal particles which are doing the most to inhibit cutting in the stone's current state. So on whole, I am not concerned, as the net effect is still likely to be very positive.

[Stewie Simpson]

Luke; with a greater depth of knowledge, you would understand that the viscosity of the oil your trying to load your dry stones with is way to thin. Good luck with your stones. Its not my problem.

Petroleum jelly is also known as white petrolatum and, at room temperature, it is odorless. The compound melts at 99 degrees and is flammable when in liquid form. It is often used to quicken the healing of wounds, yet has no medicinal effect. When applied to a wound, petroleum jelly provides a protective coating that doesn't allow unwanted bacteria to cause an infection. The jelly is often applied to burns and was marketed as a burn treatment when it was first discovered. It is also found in a variety of cosmetics, lotions and hair pomade. Its qualities reduce moisture loss and prevent chapped and dry skin.

Make petroleum jelly at home by melting 1 ounce of beeswax in a double-boiler or microwave. Once melted, add 1 1/2 cups of baby oil or mineral oil and stir until the mixture is cool. Store the concoction in a clean container with a lid, and keep it in refrigerator or pantry.

regards Stewie;

[Luke Dupont]

Luke; with a greater depth of knowledge, you would understand that the viscosity of the oil your trying to load your dry stones with is way to thin. Good luck with your stones. Its not my problem.

Petroleum jelly is also known as white petrolatum and, at room temperature, it is odorless. The compound melts at 99 degrees and is flammable when in liquid form. It is often used to quicken the healing of wounds, yet has no medicinal effect. When applied to a wound, petroleum jelly provides a protective coating that doesn't allow unwanted bacteria to cause an infection. The jelly is often applied to burns and was marketed as a burn treatment when it was first discovered. It is also found in a variety of cosmetics, lotions and hair pomade. Its qualities reduce moisture loss and prevent chapped and dry skin.

Make petroleum jelly at home by melting 1 ounce of beeswax in a double-boiler or microwave. Once melted, add 1 1/2 cups of baby oil or mineral oil and stir until the mixture is cool. Store the concoction in a clean container with a lid, and keep it in refrigerator or pantry.

regards Stewie;

Oh, I see; you were recommending petroleum jelly over vaseline. Gotcha. My bad.

Well, you might be right, but I know one way to find out for sure. After all, if the vaseline (which is the easier option) fails, it's not as if I can't boil the stone and try again with petroleum jelly.

[Patrick Chase]

Oh, I see; you were recommending petroleum jelly over vaseline. Gotcha. My bad.

Well, you might be right, but I know one way to find out for sure. After all, if the vaseline (which is the easier option) fails, it's not as if I can't boil the stone and try again with petroleum jelly.

Vaseline (http://www.vaseline.us/skin-health-care/what-is-petroleum-jelly.html) is a brand of petroleum jelly. You can obviously make it as well though.

[Stewie Simpson]

Luke; someone before you has soaked those stones of yours in a solvent wash and destroyed their oil fill. Just get on ebay and buy some cheapo 2nd hand crystolon stones off ebay, before you end up burning your parents house down. Vaseline and petroleum jelly are highly volatile when melted at liquid form.

And no; I am not recommending you use petroleum jelly or vasaline on your oil stones. It will impede the cut of your stones, as Warren and I have already pointed out in previous comments.

Here you go Luke; take you pick on cheap 2nd hand sharpening stones on ebay usa; http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&LH_ItemCondition=4&_nkw=vintage+sharpening+stone&_ipg=200&rt=nc

Flattening hard Norton Crystolon stones is another subject that others can offer you better advice on.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Vaseline (http://www.vaseline.us/skin-health-care/what-is-petroleum-jelly.html) is a brand of petroleum jelly. You can obviously make it as well though.

Vaseline and Petroleum Jelly ConstituentsVaseline is made of pure petroleum jelly mixed with minerals and microcrystalline wax that make it smoother. Petroleum jelly is sometimes referred to as petrolatum, white petrolatum and white parrafin. When chemically derived from natural petroleum, petroleum jelly consists of a translucent, semisolid mix of hydrocarbons.

[Derek Cohen]

Patrick.....

I have no idea where you source most of the information you post.

It cant all be from practical experience.

Stewie;

This is the pot calling the kettle black.

Stewie, when you post, please cite your Internet references directly (not later). Otherwise it appears as if you are plagiarising the content of websites.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

your not getting a bite from me DEREK.

[Derek Cohen]

your not getting a bite from me DEREK.

I am not after conversation with you, Stewie. It is a request.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Luke Dupont]

Let's try to tone it down a bit. I'd prefer this thread not get locked. We're discussing how to recondition a stone here. I asked this question as much out of curiosity and for knowledge's sake as anything else, as I'm pretty content with the India that I have for material removal.

When I have some free time, I will probably try the vaseline thing and report back with the results. Don't worry; as I don't live with my parents, it's very unlikely that I'll be burning their house down. I will seriously heed the warning about vaseline being volatile and take prudent precautions.

We all *should* be concerned with objective reality, rather than defending our perceptions or ego, etc.

And, personally, I think we should all take pleasure in being proven wrong. This is something I try to practice for myself, at least. If you don't put your perceptions to the test and allow them to be proven wrong (potentially!), then all you're doing is constructing a nice protected fantasy land; a bubble of your own subjective reality, which most likely won't align all that well with the real world. But, as long as you defend it, you'll have no way of realizing or admitting any differently, because you will only take actions and interpret outside information in a way that validates your preexisting perceptions.

Now, I guess that's all fine and dandy if that's how you'd prefer to go about life, but it doesn't interest me.

I'd rather screw up, make a fool of myself, and observe reality. So, let's test this burning-the-house-down-and-ruining-my-stone hypothesis! If you don't hear back from me within a week or two, you'll either know what happened, or you'll be left misinterpreting my absent laziness. You're free to believe whichever narrative suits your liking :D

[Pat Barry]

[QUOTE=Luke Dupont;2609839

Patrick's solution addresses my problem.
Yours does not (if you are arguing against using vaseline or some equivelent).

I know to use oil on my stones. My problem is that they (well, the two particular ones in question) continuously soak up the oil like a sponge and immediately become bone dry, no matter how much oil I put on them. Patrick's answer provides a logical solution that has yet to be ruled out.

Logic trumps any specs or manufacturer advice that you can find. Manufacturers do not include all possible relevant information in their product's description. Sometimes, for whatever reason, a stone may be in a condition which is less than optimal, and un-predicted or predictable but simply unaddressed. In that case, one has to use make a logical hypothesis, and test it. Moreover, frankly, manufacturers are usually far too conservative and narrow when it comes to advice regarding the best use of their product, because they know that people can be irresponsible or incompetent and don't want to be blamed for it. Baking a stone in vaseline definitely is not something that a manufacturer would recommend for liability reasons, even if it is a perfectly valid solution.

I can appreciate your point that it may possibly inhibit the cutting action, but currently, I cannot even get oil to stay on the stone long enough to carry the metal particles away, and it's the metal particles which are doing the most to inhibit cutting in the stone's current state. So on whole, I am not concerned, as the net effect is still likely to be very positive.[/QUOTE]
Luke, what is your background? Are you an engineering student or practicing engineer? What discipline? What expertise do you have to suggest logic trumps the manufacturers specs? Just curious since it seems only recently that you started here stating that you had passion but no working experience. Thanks

[Patrick Chase]

Stewie, I appreciate the helpful intentions, but...

Patrick's solution addresses my problem.
Yours does not (if you are arguing against using vaseline or some equivelent).

I know to use oil on my stones. My problem is that they (well, the two particular ones in question) continuously soak up the oil like a sponge and immediately become bone dry, no matter how much oil I put on them. Patrick's answer provides a logical solution that has yet to be ruled out.

Logic trumps any specs or manufacturer advice that you can find. Manufacturers do not include all possible relevant information in their product's description. Sometimes, for whatever reason, a stone may be in a condition which is less than optimal, and un-predicted or predictable but simply unaddressed. In that case, one has to use make a logical hypothesis, and test it. Moreover, frankly, manufacturers are usually far too conservative and narrow when it comes to advice regarding the best use of their product, because they know that people can be irresponsible or incompetent and don't want to be blamed for it. Baking a stone in vaseline definitely is not something that a manufacturer would recommend for liability reasons, even if it is a perfectly valid solution.

I can appreciate your point that it may possibly inhibit the cutting action, but currently, I cannot even get oil to stay on the stone long enough to carry the metal particles away, and it's the metal particles which are doing the most to inhibit cutting in the stone's current state. So on whole, I am not concerned, as the net effect is still likely to be very positive.

I think that's a little strong, Luke.

Stewie is trying to help you, just like me. He has far more experience than either of us and you should pay attention to what he says (I do, hence my willingness to grind out photo after photo in the "needle files" thread), even if you end up disagreeing. IMO the etiquette in a case like this is to thank *everybody* who helped you and then do whatever you've decided.

[Luke Dupont]

I think that's a little strong, Luke.

Stewie is trying to help you, just like me. He has far more experience than either of us and you should pay attention to what he says (I do, hence my willingness to grind out photo after photo in the "needle files" thread), even if you end up disagreeing. IMO the etiquette in a case like this is to thank *everybody* who helped you and then do whatever you've decided.

Mmm, sorry. I think you're right. Sometimes I get frustrated with what I perceive to be inflexible thinking, and I guess my writing style can come off as overly direct.

Sorry, Stewie. I do honestly appreciate your help, and despite all that I wrote, I recognize that you might very well be correct on many points.

In this case, I'm persuaded otherwise, which is why I am pursuing a different course of action, but I'll definitely stay open to new information and keep your words of caution in mind.

[Luke Dupont]

Luke, what is your background? Are you an engineering student or practicing engineer? What discipline? What expertise do you have to suggest logic trumps the manufacturers specs? Just curious since it seems only recently that you started here stating that you had passion but no working experience. Thanks

This is going to be a really cheesy answer that won't convince anyone, but:

I do not think that specific knowledge or experience is all that important in making good judgement. It certainly helps, but even a very experienced person can adopt a very narrow methodology (and have a very narrow, if deep array of experience) that works, but still misses or even dismisses important information.

Staying open to new information, and keeping an eye on the big picture is often vital for understanding what's really going on, and can give one insight even into problems that you're lacking the specific knowledge and experience to solve. Logic and reason are powerful tools that allow us to work in the absence of certain information, and directly inform us on how to go about solving a problem or identify what information is and isn't relative or meaningful.

Let me use this example.

I know nothing about cars. Well, almost nothing. My car was having an issue whereby the battery was going dead, and I was on a wild goose chase for a number of months. Every mechanic I spoke to thought it was either the battery, or the alternator. A few of them were even really insistent that it must be one or the other, and when I inquired if it might be the cable connecting the two, flat out dismissed that as a possibility because in their experience, it was always one of the other two things (having already ruled out that the connection might just need cleaning, of course).

Well, two batteries and an alternator later, I finally convinced one of them to try replacing the cable connecting the two, and sure enough, that was the culprit. If you've heard of Occam's razor, that's largely the kind of reasoning that lead me to the conclusion early on that it was the cable; I found myself needing to justify and reason too many points to rationalize either the battery or the alternator as culprits, indicating to me that the connection was the more likely culprit.

Now, without any knowledge of cars, I correctly identified the problem before any of the three mechanics, or my family members (including my uncle, who is also a mechanic) who were helping me with it, and the only reason it got fixed at all was due to my nagging insistence that it's probably the connection.

I pursue a very broad array of interests, and I'm constantly learning. But the most valuable thing that I've learned is that there's more to "knowing" and understanding the world than mere knowledge or experience. Those are, without a doubt, critical components, but it's how you use and interpret that knowledge and what larger context you put it in that dictate whether or not it ultimately is a help or a hindrance. Logic and discernment are just as, and sometimes, more important, and can inform you of exactly what knowledge you're lacking and how to go about obtaining or at least accounting for it.

[Stewie Simpson]

great ideas always have multiple authors. Always. We like to think about the hero that triumphs against all odds, but this is a deeply misleading story. Innovation is nearly always triggered by brilliance, but it is usually collective brilliance, not individual brilliance. http://timkastelle.org/blog/2014/03/who-invented-the-computer/

[Patrick Chase]

Back on the topic, here's Norton's statement about how and why they pre-treat Crystolon stones in manufacturing:

"Norton Crystolon@ oilstones are manufactured using a proprietary process that impregnates them with a petroleum based product that allows the lubrication used during the sharpening process to stay on the stone's surface. As a result, the metal from the object being sharpened and small pieces of abrasive that break off the stone become suspended in the lubricant. This prevents these materials from imbedding into the sharpening stone's surface, keeping it free cutting and making it easy to keep its surface clean."

"petroleum-based product" is fairly vague. It's clearly viscous enough to stay in the stone and prevent mineral oil from soaking into the stone, so that rules out simple oils, but I can think of a couple possibilities on the heavier/thicker end of the spectrum. I don't think you can go too wrong with the FWW recommendation of Vaseline.

[steven c newman]

I have a couple of these stones.....and a fairly deep tray. I think I'll just slip over to Wallie World, pick up a quart of cheap 5 weight motor oil......pour enough into the tray......let the stones soak as much as they like. Later I'll give them a try to see IF my normal 3in1 oil stays on top of the stones. If it does, I'll post back with the results.....

The Boss would shoot me, if'n I used HER oven to cook Vaseline.......

Hmm, 5 W 30...or 10 W 40?

[Patrick Chase]

The Boss would shoot me, if'n I used HER oven to cook Vaseline.......

If there's no fire it didn't happen.

[Patrick Chase]

I have a couple of these stones.....and a fairly deep tray. I think I'll just slip over to Wallie World, pick up a quart of cheap 5 weight motor oil......pour enough into the tray......let the stones soak as much as they like.

I would guess that you may have one or both of two problems:

1. Motor oil is pretty fluid/mobile at room temperature, so I suspect you'll end up with an "oozing stone"

2. Motor oil is also soluble in 3-in-1 IIRC, so I would expect them to mix rather than the 3-in-1 staying on top. This should be easy to test beforehand - just drip some 3-in-1 on some motor oil and watch what happens.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; I have contacted Norton direct, and requested further advice on restoring the oil fill within their stones. I may or may not get a response back, but its worth a try.

regards Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; I have contacted Norton direct, and requested further advice on restoring the oil fill within their stones. I may or may not get a response back, but its worth a try.

regards Stewie;

Yeah, I think that's a good idea [sound of me facepalming because I didn't do that when I was in the same boat].

[Pat Barry]

This is going to be a really cheesy answer that won't convince anyone, but:

I do not think that specific knowledge or experience is all that important in making good judgement. It certainly helps, but even a very experienced person can adopt a very narrow methodology (and have a very narrow, if deep array of experience) that works, but still misses or even dismisses important information.

Staying open to new information, and keeping an eye on the big picture is often vital for understanding what's really going on, and can give one insight even into problems that you're lacking the specific knowledge and experience to solve. Logic and reason are powerful tools that allow us to work in the absence of certain information, and directly inform us on how to go about solving a problem or identify what information is and isn't relative or meaningful.

Let me use this example.

I know nothing about cars. Well, almost nothing. My car was having an issue whereby the battery was going dead, and I was on a wild goose chase for a number of months. Every mechanic I spoke to thought it was either the battery, or the alternator. A few of them were even really insistent that it must be one or the other, and when I inquired if it might be the cable connecting the two, flat out dismissed that as a possibility because in their experience, it was always one of the other two things (having already ruled out that the connection might just need cleaning, of course).

Well, two batteries and an alternator later, I finally convinced one of them to try replacing the cable connecting the two, and sure enough, that was the culprit. If you've heard of Occam's razor, that's largely the kind of reasoning that lead me to the conclusion early on that it was the cable; I found myself needing to justify and reason too many points to rationalize either the battery or the alternator as culprits, indicating to me that the connection was the more likely culprit.

Now, without any knowledge of cars, I correctly identified the problem before any of the three mechanics, or my family members (including my uncle, who is also a mechanic) who were helping me with it, and the only reason it got fixed at all was due to my nagging insistence that it's probably the connection.

I pursue a very broad array of interests, and I'm constantly learning. But the most valuable thing that I've learned is that there's more to "knowing" and understanding the world than mere knowledge or experience. Those are, without a doubt, critical components, but it's how you use and interpret that knowledge and what larger context you put it in that dictate whether or not it ultimately is a help or a hindrance. Logic and discernment are just as, and sometimes, more important, and can inform you of exactly what knowledge you're lacking and how to go about obtaining or at least accounting for it.
Luke, there are two ways to go about identifying and resolving problems such as yours. Bad mechanics go by the guess and check route. This relies on their past expereince which sometimes resulted in correct problem solving. The other approach, I would say used by good mechanics, is to use a process of systematic isolation and troubleshooting. Battery and alternator problems can usually be very simply identified by disconnection of each of the devices in question and then testing them independently. I'd say you chose bad mechanics. Especially when dealing with electrical issues which are not visibly at fault (like a bad wheel bearing for example). Electrical troubleshooting requires much more diagnostic testing.

As for your background, you didn't answer my question. I think it is evident that you are non technical, perhaps a liberal arts major of some type, perhaps marketing or political science judging by your postings. You should therefore put your energy into selecting better mechanics in the future. The simplest logic I can think of for you is that you need to know when to apply your own logic and when to utilize the knowledge of others, for example the specifications and guidance offered by the manufacturer.

[James Waldron]

great ideas always have multiple authors. Always. We like to think about the hero that triumphs against all odds, but this is a deeply misleading story. Innovation is nearly always triggered by brilliance, but it is usually collective brilliance, not individual brilliance. http://timkastelle.org/blog/2014/03/who-invented-the-computer/




After retiring from a 35 year practice of patent law, I've fairly thoroughly learned to avoid "always" in connection with innovation and invention. It's important to consider the idea (whether great or mundane) separately from the implementation (whether creative or routine).

Viewed in context, "great ideas" sometimes have single authors. Example, general and special relativity, and E=mc^2 was created by a single, somewhat insular individual. The first nuclear bomb based on those ideas took a vast team of engineers and some highly creative engineering work to implement. Taken together, they were quite an innovation. Engineers and scientists are still hard at work today and into the foreseeable future, striving and often struggling to implement Einstein's great ideas. (And some have been and are striving and struggling and - so far - failing to "disprove" Einstein's ideas.) Einstein himself remained comfortably ensconced at Princeton and had (almost) nothing to do with the Manhattan Project.

In a broader context, I can also say that most "great ideas" have multiple authors. And I can also say that all "great ideas" are built on a foundation created by the work of others. If we could ask, I think Dr. Einstein would agree.

[Patrick Chase]

Viewed in context, "great ideas" sometimes have single authors. Example, general and special relativity, and E=mc^2 was created by a single, somewhat insular individual.

As far as we know that's true for Special Relativity and the other discoveries he published in his Annus Mirabilis (1905). I say "as far as we know" because his wife was also a physicist, and there are lingering questions about her involvement that will likely never be answered.

It isn't true for General Relativity. Einstein sucked at math (by the standards of top-rank theoretical physicists), and received nontrivial help from Hilbert in particular to create the field equations. They published simultaneously and ended up dividing priority in a way that gave Einstein credit for the underlying discovery and Hilbert credit for the mathematical derivation/proofs.

[James Waldron]

[snip]
It isn't true for General Relativity. Einstein sucked at math (by the standards of top-rank theoretical physicists), and received nontrivial help from Hilbert in particular to create the field equations. They published simultaneously and ended up dividing priority in a way that gave Einstein credit for the underlying discovery and Hilbert credit for the mathematical derivation/proofs.

As you say, the "great idea" was the contribution of Einstein and the maths (themselves a non-trivial aspect, but still not the "great idea") we can give full marks to Hilbert. Without Einstein's "great idea," there wouldn't have been those field equations for Hilbert to help create. I don't see any conflict with my point.

[Luke Dupont]

Luke, there are two ways to go about identifying and resolving problems such as yours. Bad mechanics go by the guess and check route. This relies on their past expereince which sometimes resulted in correct problem solving. The other approach, I would say used by good mechanics, is to use a process of systematic isolation and troubleshooting. Battery and alternator problems can usually be very simply identified by disconnection of each of the devices in question and then testing them independently. I'd say you chose bad mechanics. Especially when dealing with electrical issues which are not visibly at fault (like a bad wheel bearing for example). Electrical troubleshooting requires much more diagnostic testing.

As for your background, you didn't answer my question. I think it is evident that you are non technical, perhaps a liberal arts major of some type, perhaps marketing or political science judging by your postings. You should therefore put your energy into selecting better mechanics in the future. The simplest logic I can think of for you is that you need to know when to apply your own logic and when to utilize the knowledge of others, for example the specifications and guidance offered by the manufacturer.

I'm actually a programmer, so diagnosing and solving problems is something which I'm very familiar with. The example you give in regards to trouble shooting is of course the same thing I do when I have the tools and means to isolate and test things -- otherwise, I'm just left to reason them out in my head, as I did in the example above. I'm yet to find a mechanic who is as thorough and competent at troubleshooting as you describe, but I'd certainly like to.

Problem solving, however, often relies more on lateral thinking and imagination (considering unknown factors) than it does knowledge or experience. As a programmer, one often works on massively complicated programs using tools and languages which few people truly know inside and out. As such, you simply have to be able to make educated guesses based on the symptoms of a given problem, imagine what variables might be contributing to the behavior, and go about isolating and testing your different hypothesis, narrowing down your search as you go based on new information. Sometimes, the problem can be many layers deep in some obscure function of some tool that you're completely unfamiliar with, and you would have had no basis of knowledge or experience to have predicted such behavior. The only way to identify that kind of problem is through logic and intuition.

I do find it interesting that you peg me as a non-technical type. I think, though, that you are confusing a preference for "Intuition" over "Sensing," and the mindset of a "generalist" over a "specialist," as being more or less technically oriented, which is not the case. As I have said before, I have a wide array of skills and interests, and I've done much more than just programming. As such, perhaps logic, reason, and intuition serve me better than knowledge or experience, because I do often find myself pursuing unfamiliar work or hobbies. I suppose one could argue, though, that knowledge and experience in one field often does aid understanding and intuition in another.

Anyway, it's an irrelevant point from a practical stance, because the only way you get knowledge and experience is by doing, and I'm one of those fools who wants to learn how to do any and everything, even if it's far removed from his field of work and doesn't make sense in an age of specialized, divided labor. Woodworking, among many other things, falls into this category for me. I'm not a woodworker. I just happen to work wood and have some basic level of knowledge and experience doing so. But I'll never claim to be "experienced," because I know that there are people who spend their entire lives focused on such work.

[Luke Dupont]

Patrick; I have contacted Norton direct, and requested further advice on restoring the oil fill within their stones. I may or may not get a response back, but its worth a try.

regards Stewie;


Awesome! I'm curious to hear what they have to say also.

[Pat Barry]

I'm actually a programmer, so diagnosing and solving problems is something which I'm very familiar with. The example you give in regards to trouble shooting is of course the same thing I do when I have the tools and means to isolate and test things -- otherwise, I'm just left to reason them out in my head, as I did in the example above. I'm yet to find a mechanic who is as thorough and competent at troubleshooting as you describe, but I'd certainly like to.

Problem solving, however, often relies more on lateral thinking and imagination (considering unknown factors) than it does knowledge or experience. As a programmer, one often works on massively complicated programs using tools and languages which few people truly know inside and out. As such, you simply have to be able to make educated guesses based on the symptoms of a given problem, imagine what variables might be contributing to the behavior, and go about isolating and testing your different hypothesis, narrowing down your search as you go based on new information. Sometimes, the problem can be many layers deep in some obscure function of some tool that you're completely unfamiliar with, and you would have had no basis of knowledge or experience to have predicted such behavior. The only way to identify that kind of problem is through logic and intuition.

I do find it interesting that you peg me as a non-technical type. I think, though, that you are confusing a preference for "Intuition" over "Sensing," and the mindset of a "generalist" over a "specialist," as being more or less technically oriented, which is not the case. As I have said before, I have a wide array of skills and interests, and I've done much more than just programming. As such, perhaps logic, reason, and intuition serve me better than knowledge or experience, because I do often find myself pursuing unfamiliar work or hobbies. I suppose one could argue, though, that knowledge and experience in one field often does aid understanding and intuition in another.

Anyway, it's an irrelevant point from a practical stance, because the only way you get knowledge and experience is by doing, and I'm one of those fools who wants to learn how to do any and everything, even if it's far removed from his field of work and doesn't make sense in an age of specialized, divided labor. Woodworking, among many other things, falls into this category for me. I'm not a woodworker. I just happen to work wood and have some basic level of knowledge and experience doing so. But I'll never claim to be "experienced," because I know that there are people who spend their entire lives focused on such work.
Oh, a programmer - I should have immediately recognized that bassed on your previous posting. Nothing wrong with programming but it does tend to reward the guess and check methodology because its so simple to make a program change and then run it. You can tend to think this method works everywhere. Its a very poor practice to follow in civil engineering for example because you need to design that bridge very carefully before you build it. In programming you come up with a concept for a subroutine, hack out some code, run it, find out it doesn't work, take a guess on how to fix it, tweak the code, etc, etc, etc. I have done plenty of programming in all different languages C, FORTRAN, basic, pascal, visual C, Visual basic, even assembly language back in the day so I know how that all works. Bigger companies are much more strict on proper code design - they don't tolerate that sort of programming from their professional coders. They expect well designed and implemented code right from the get go. Plus, if you do the coding, you know how its intended to work. Try and troubleshoot someone else's code and you will quickly see that it can be a huge nightmare if its not designed and documented properly -- of course you already know all that. :)

[Normand Leblanc]

Oh, a programmer - I should have immediately recognized that bassed on your previous posting. Nothing wrong with programming but it does tend to reward the guess and check methodology because its so simple to make a program change and then run it. You can tend to think this method works everywhere. Its a very poor practice to follow in civil engineering for example because you need to design that bridge very carefully before you build it. In programming you come up with a concept for a subroutine, hack out some code, run it, find out it doesn't work, take a guess on how to fix it, tweak the code, etc, etc, etc. I have done plenty of programming in all different languages C, FORTRAN, basic, pascal, visual C, Visual basic, even assembly language back in the day so I know how that all works. Bigger companies are much more strict on proper code design - they don't tolerate that sort of programming from their professional coders. They expect well designed and implemented code right from the get go. Plus, if you do the coding, you know how its intended to work. Try and troubleshoot someone else's code and you will quickly see that it can be a huge nightmare if its not designed and documented properly -- of course you already know all that. :)

I remember programming in Fortran with punch cards. What a pain it was back then.

Normand

[Luke Dupont]

Oh, a programmer - I should have immediately recognized that bassed on your previous posting. Nothing wrong with programming but it does tend to reward the guess and check methodology because its so simple to make a program change and then run it. You can tend to think this method works everywhere. Its a very poor practice to follow in civil engineering for example because you need to design that bridge very carefully before you build it. In programming you come up with a concept for a subroutine, hack out some code, run it, find out it doesn't work, take a guess on how to fix it, tweak the code, etc, etc, etc. I have done plenty of programming in all different languages C, FORTRAN, basic, pascal, visual C, Visual basic, even assembly language back in the day so I know how that all works. Bigger companies are much more strict on proper code design - they don't tolerate that sort of programming from their professional coders. They expect well designed and implemented code right from the get go. Plus, if you do the coding, you know how its intended to work. Try and troubleshoot someone else's code and you will quickly see that it can be a huge nightmare if its not designed and documented properly -- of course you already know all that. :)

Haha. That's a really good observation in regards to the nature of programming versus engineering, and how it might develop different preferences for problem solving. I might challenge the assertion that it's sloppy, or indicative of sloppy code / design, though. Problems and bugs will come up no matter how well planned you are, and lateral thinking and dealing with code and tools that you're unfamiliar with will always be necessary.

This is part of the reason that I throw this stuff out there and appear to argue points. It's not so much that I think that I am right and want to prove that, but rather that I enjoy getting thought provoking responses and different perspectives that open my mind to new information or considerations, or help me to be aware of how my own experience might bias my approach to things :)

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; I have contacted Norton direct, and requested further advice on restoring the oil fill within their stones. I may or may not get a response back, but its worth a try.

regards Stewie;


Awesome! I'm curious to hear what they have to say also.

Luke; I find that comment of yours extremely puzzling. The following is what you said of me in post #18


Logic trumps any specs or manufacturer advice that you can find.


Stewie;

[Luke Dupont]

Luke; I find that comment of yours extremely puzzling. The following is what you said of me in post #18

Stewie;

As I said, I always remain open to new information.

That doesn't mean I am obligated to draw the same conclusions as someone who assigns a different value or interpretation to that information. It just means that I file it away in my memory as one more factor to consider.

I remain skeptical of how information may be interpreted and am careful as to how of how I evaluate its meaning or relevance, but I certainly don't dismiss it entirely. That would be willful ignorance as opposed to healthy skepticism.

[Pat Barry]

I remember programming in Fortran with punch cards. What a pain it was back then.

Normand

I also remember those days from CompSci 101. Thank goodness we graduated to paper tape for CompSci 102! Back in the punch card days things were tough. We used to slip a bad card into our buddys stack just to see what would happen.

[Patrick Chase]

I also remember those days from CompSci 101. Thank goodness we graduated to paper tape for CompSci 102! Back in the punch card days things were tough. We used to slip a bad card into our buddys stack just to see what would happen.

Your campus computer centers didn't have auto-sorting machines?

(At 45 I'm too young to have experienced punchcards, but I've worked with plenty of people who did)

[Pat Barry]

Your campus computer centers didn't have auto-sorting machines?

(At 45 I'm too young to have experienced punchcards, but I've worked with plenty of people who did)
I don't recall card sorters although they certainly could have been used. I recall all the program statements were numbered and I think the compiler would simply stop and we would get an error printout if the statements weren't in order. Then you would start by going through the deck one by one to find the problem. I recall there was the capability to have a 'trace' run on a program to help with debug also but it was rather tedious. Now, this was long ago and my memory is a bit fuzzy. If there was an extraneous card in the deck of even 100 cards it can be a bit difficult to find. Best chance is there punch cards looked different than the one dummy card placed in the deck. Maybe you put a line of code like "57 GOTO 10" in the deck in the appropriate place. The victims program might loop endlessly and then the computer printout what give a run-time error for time violation or something.

[Patrick Chase]

I waited a bit to reply as I was trying to figure out how to make my point without being long-winded...


As you say, the "great idea" was the contribution of Einstein and the maths (themselves a non-trivial aspect, but still not the "great idea") we can give full marks to Hilbert. Without Einstein's "great idea," there wouldn't have been those field equations for Hilbert to help create. I don't see any conflict with my point.

I don't think that you can really elevate the idea above its formalization, at least in this case. Without the field equations General Relativity would not make falsifiable predictions, and as such it would reside in the realm of religion rather than science. Einstein had come up with the concept several years earlier, but he was unable to publish it until Hilbert helped him turn it into an honest-to-goodness theory rather than just an intuition derived from Einstein's many famous "thought problems".

Einstein was always the first to admit that GR was worthless without the math.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; I received an email update from Saint-Gobain Abrasives

Hi Stewart,
Thanks for your enquiry, I am passing it on to our bonded expert Rao who will be able to give you sound advice.

Kind regards,
David Grech
State Manager
Saint-Gobain Abrasives
0407179282

[Patrick Chase]

s
I don't recall card sorters although they certainly could have been used. I recall all the program statements were numbered and I think the compiler would simply stop and we would get an error printout if the statements weren't in order. Then you would start by going through the deck one by one to find the problem

Ah yes, line numbers. Something I won't miss (along with 'goto' statements, though those are still in use and occasionally surface in hilarious contexts (https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/02/22/applebug.html)).

By convention it was common to encode card numbers (as opposed to statement numbers) in the unused columns, and there were sorting machines available that would re-sort a scrambled stack based on those. I got the impression those were expensive and effectively reserved for "serious programmers", at least at first.

My Mom worked as a programmer at Bell Labs back when there were no CS degrees and they had determined that musicians were good at it, so I've heard a lot of lore over the years.

[steven c newman]

Have found a soaking tub, and have a few older stones that oil disappears into. Quaker State will be used....10 W 40 I think, as the mower doesn't need it now...

Will let them soak awhile, and then give them a try....stay tuned..
345212
At least the oven ( and me) won't be messed up this way. Bubbles are a-rising from the stones. These are NOT my "good" stones. Not quite as messy as water stones getting a bath....

[steven c newman]

Been over an hour, maybe I should stagger outside and check on them? Let some "Solar" heat work on them right now.....

[steven c newman]

Had to flip them over, level of the oil had gone down quite a bit.......I'll give it awhile out in the sunshine....check on them after a while..again.

[Patrick Chase]

At least the oven ( and me) won't be messed up this way. Bubbles are a-rising from the stones. These are NOT my "good" stones. Not quite as messy as water stones getting a bath....

Could you buy your wife a spa day and offer to "clean the oven" while she's gone? Or is that so far out of character that it would arouse suspicion?

Of course the downside is that you'd have to actually, you know, clean the oven.

[steven c newman]

Won't have to, now. The three stones are still soaking up oil......they were very dried out. I get them out of the "bath" in a bit, and towel them off. Then,....we'll see how they turned out.

One never knows. until one tries. Gets me up out of the chair, at any rate. I do have a couple other "dried out" stones.....maybe sometime I'll try the goop in the oven......might make the Pumpkin Bread smell a bit...funny, though

[Patrick Chase]

Won't have to, now. The three stones are still soaking up oil......they were very dried out. I get them out of the "bath" in a bit, and towel them off. Then,....we'll see how they turned out.

One never knows. until one tries. Gets me up out of the chair, at any rate. I do have a couple other "dried out" stones.....maybe sometime I'll try the goop in the oven......might make the Pumpkin Bread smell a bit...funny, though

I don't doubt they'll soak oil up.

My concern is whether they'll retain it and/or retain new oil on their surfaces, which is after all the point of the exercise. If you're willing to store them in oil then you're GTG, though :-).

[steven c newman]

Stones are now out of the oil bath, and wiped down. Have them sitting out in the open air, and letting the Sun shine on them...
345248
Waiting to see IF any oil oozes out, and how much. Need to make a box or three to hold these in. Hmmm....walnut, or Cherry?

[Pat Barry]

I don't doubt they'll soak oil up.

My concern is whether they'll retain it and/or retain new oil on their surfaces, which is after all the point of the exercise. If you're willing to store them in oil then you're GTG, though :-).
It's interesting but not likely to stay put. Set the stone down on a block of wood and 90% will seep back out into the wood. There is no way the sun or even a hot oven will congealed motor oil to remain in the stone. Anyway, that's my Nostradamus thought of the day. If it turns out good I will buy you lunch next time I see you. :)

[steven c newman]

Mine Nostradamus thought for today.....At least I was willing to try it out. just came back in.....one small spot on the paper towel sitting under the three stones. I didn't have the middle one wiped down as well as I thought. So far, so good.

I MIGHT build an oilstone box, when my knee will let me work in the shop, again. The oil wood I set these on has a coat of finish in it, anyway......my bench. Rest of the time, they sit on a sheet of sandpaper, so they don't try to run off on me.

[steven c newman]

Stones are back in the house. Paper towel was barely a spot of oil on it. Stones even feel better, and a hair heavier. They also have a slight shine to them....

Will know more when the next sharpening day comes around. So far, so good.

mRI next Tuesday on the knee. Then see what they are going to do to fix it. Got the Tri-Care approval this morning for the work on the knee.

[Stewie Simpson]

Steven; appreciate the feedback on the use of the heavier grade oil. All the best with the knee surgery.

Stewie;

[steven c newman]

Stewie: Thank you...

[Stewie Simpson]

Received a phone call from Rao; Petroleum Jelly/ Vaseline is not used as part of their oil fill process. He would not recommend its use, to resolve the issues outlined by the OP.

Stewie;

[steven c newman]

Might be a good thing I tried that oil soak experiment?

[Patrick Chase]

Received a phone call from Rao; Petroleum Jelly/ Vaseline is not used as part of their oil fill process. He would not recommend its use, to resolve the issues outlined by the OP.

Stewie;

Did he say what *is* used?

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; that was mentioned during the discussion, but he emphasised that unless the process was tightly controlled, the results were likely to be unfavourable. He also covered the fact that; unless the stones mentioned by the OP were manufactured as non oil filled(specialised market for food preparation), that the oil fill should not dissipate under normal environmental conditions. Most likely the stones mentioned by the OP were either, non oil filled, or had been exposed to a solvent bath that had destroyed the oil fill. His recommendation to the OP was to not bother trying to resurrect the oil fill in those 2 stones, and to either consider purchasing new oil filled silicon carbide replacements, or take your chances at purchasing 2nd hand replacements.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

I look forward to hearing more on Steven's experimenting with oil fill.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; that was mentioned during the discussion, but he emphasised that unless the process was tightly controlled, the results were likely to be unfavourable. He also covered the fact that; unless the stones mentioned by the OP were manufactured as non oil filled(specialised market for food preparation), that the oil fill should not dissipate under normal environmental conditions. Most likely the stones mentioned by the OP were either, non oil filled, or had been exposed to a solvent bath that had destroyed the oil fill. His recommendation to the OP was to not bother trying to resurrect the oil fill in those 2 stones, and to either consider purchasing new oil filled silicon carbide replacements, or take your chances at purchasing 2nd hand replacements.

Stewie;


I am shocked, shocked that Norton would urge somebody to replace an old oilstone with a brand new one instead of trying to fix it.

Back when I was a designated "speaker to the trade press" I gave that sort of explanation ("it's a very tightly controlled process with super-secret steps that nobody else could replicate even if we told them how it works") more times than I can count. Sometimes I even managed to keep a straight face while I said it. Suffice it to say that I don't find it credible.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; during my discussion with Rao there was no hint that he was trying to feed me a lot of baloney, in fact I found him to open and honest within all the questions I asked of him. I followed through with promise to source the information directly from the manufacturer, you rightly commended me for that action, but to then turn around and claim that Rao was feeding me the usual spin, is rather disappointing to hear. The information I provided came directly from the expert employed by the Company to oversee their process. I have fulfilled my obligation to the OP. Except or reject that information. That is the clear choice you have available.

regards Stewie;

[steven c newman]

IF I get the time tomorrow, and find a decent chisel to use for a test sharpening...I might set up a stone and see how well the 3in1 oil I use stay on top of the stone. Stones are right now stacked up, bottom one is sitting on some wet-or-dry sandpaper. I lifted the stack up a few hours ago...barely a smudge of oil.

Perhaps Patrick could try this experiment as well? He could use whatever brand motor oil he wishes. The one I used was on hand, for use in my lawnmower. Found out it took 30W instead. So the 10W40 was "extra". I left my stones IN the oil all day, making sure they stayed cover in at least a film. I even flipped them over a time or two. maybe Patrick could do a more "Controlled " set up? Well???

[Patrick Chase]

Perhaps Patrick could try this experiment as well? He could use whatever brand motor oil he wishes. The one I used was on hand, for use in my lawnmower. Found out it took 30W instead. So the 10W40 was "extra". I left my stones IN the oil all day, making sure they stayed cover in at least a film. I even flipped them over a time or two. maybe Patrick could do a more "Controlled " set up? Well???

I soaked my old Crystolon in Vaseline years ago. It doesn't soak up oil of any sort, and I'm not going to dunk it in solvent when it works perfectly well.

[steven c newman]

News flash: per the carton mine came in: "Stones can be CLEANED with Kerosene"......Said so, right on the blue and white cardboard carton they came in.

Well, it was an idea. Maybe doesn't have the time to find an old stone to "refresh" ? Maybe just afraid of the results? Guess we will never know, will we....sigh.

[steven c newman]

Rust hunt this morning provided a suitable chisel to use on the stones..
345329
Chisel is a bit rusty. Maybe 1" wide. Have it outside, getting a Simple Green bath. Tape measure seems to be in good shape....as for the saw?
345330
26", skew back Atkins, with the AAA medallion. Spent $5 this morning.

[steven c newman]

Ok, had some errands to run....
First stone is a single grit Corobundium(sp)
345352
Oil is just the usual 3in1 oil....ran the chisel for awhile, working on the bevel
345359
Have a big oily spot...on my jeans' leg. In this picture, I had moved the stone over, to see IF any oil had seeped out. Other than where the iron pushed some over the edge..
345360
This is the second stone, a coarse grit on this face, a fine grit on the other face. Puddle is AFTER running the chisel around a while. Stone did have so oil on the sides, where I hadn't completely wiped it down.
As for that Atkins saw?
345361
Plate was taken out, and cleaned up. Stamped as a 7 ppi. Skew back, holes match the handle, and no "extra ones", either. Handle is an open top. Bolts have been cleaned up, and clocked..
345362
No sign of any etch, though. Medallion sets down into the handle..
345363
Has the AAA stamp. One small crack in the handle. Small chip missing in the top horn. Might be a decent enough saw, after I get it sharpened up.

So, the update on the "oil filled" stones? Seems to do the job. 3in1 tends to stay on top of the stones. Haven't seen any seepage of the motor oil, either.

[Patrick Chase]

So, the update on the "oil filled" stones? Seems to do the job. 3in1 tends to stay on top of the stones. Haven't seen any seepage of the motor oil, either.

Nicely done!

I'm actually happy to be proved wrong on the need for a higher-viscosity fill. Baking in Vaseline was a minor pain in the a**.

[Stewie Simpson]

That rings a bell - way back in post #19. (and I aint no Mechanical Engineer).

Stewie;


Luke; with a greater depth of knowledge, you would understand that the viscosity of the oil your trying to load your dry stones with is way to thin. Good luck with your stones.

[Stewie Simpson]

Well done Steven. Good to hear the results were positive.

regards Stewie;

[Pat Barry]

Ok, had some errands to run....
First stone is a single grit Corobundium(sp)
345352
Oil is just the usual 3in1 oil....ran the chisel for awhile, working on the bevel
345359
Have a big oily spot...on my jeans' leg. In this picture, I had moved the stone over, to see IF any oil had seeped out. Other than where the iron pushed some over the edge..
345360
This is the second stone, a coarse grit on this face, a fine grit on the other face. Puddle is AFTER running the chisel around a while. Stone did have so oil on the sides, where I hadn't completely wiped it down.
As for that Atkins saw?
345361
Plate was taken out, and cleaned up. Stamped as a 7 ppi. Skew back, holes match the handle, and no "extra ones", either. Handle is an open top. Bolts have been cleaned up, and clocked..
345362
No sign of any etch, though. Medallion sets down into the handle..
345363
Has the AAA stamp. One small crack in the handle. Small chip missing in the top horn. Might be a decent enough saw, after I get it sharpened up.

So, the update on the "oil filled" stones? Seems to do the job. 3in1 tends to stay on top of the stones. Haven't seen any seepage of the motor oil, either.
So how exactly is it a success to have a big oily spot on your jeans leg? I am not buying this experiment as a success. All you have is a porous stone thats a big oily mess. All that oil that you carefully sun-dried is destined to seep right out the bottom onto your pants leg everytime you use it. So how did this all help? The Vaseline espoused previously would at least congeal at room temperature and stay put in the pores of the stone. The 5W40 is no substitute for that.

[steven c newman]

Still need to buy me lunch, bud. The oil showing is the 3in1 oil I use to hone an edge with, Second picture? I had moved the stone over, to show that nothing had "seeped out" the bottom of the stone. Oil on my pants leg is from the chisel getting wiped off, as I check how the sharpening is going. Old habit, wife frowns on my using a washrag for that.

Some newbie, with a gas oven, may try to bake the Vaseline into a stone, only to see the oven blow up. Molten Vaseline is a FIRE HAZARD. getting it close to the flames ( pilot lights/burners) will cause it to catch fire. Not sure IF they would want a "Fire Roasted" stone. Maybe you should also try this "experiment" out. BTW: Motor oil was 10W40.

Why would I put those stones ON my legs? They sat on a white cardboard mailing box. The only oil that even showed up on that white surface was from the 3in1 oil getting pushed over the edge by the chisel's strokes.

Sooo, when are you buying lunch?

[Patrick Chase]

Some newbie, with a gas oven, may try to bake the Vaseline into a stone, only to see the oven blow up. Molten Vaseline is a FIRE HAZARD. getting it close to the flames ( pilot lights/burners) will cause it to catch fire. Not sure IF they would want a "Fire Roasted" stone. Maybe you should also try this "experiment" out. BTW: Motor oil was 10W40.

Yes, it's a fire hazard. I suspect however that it's no worse than many of the solvent-based finishes we work with every day though (and that's certainly true if you spray).

[Pat Barry]

Still need to buy me lunch, bud. The oil showing is the 3in1 oil I use to hone an edge with, Second picture? I had moved the stone over, to show that nothing had "seeped out" the bottom of the stone. Oil on my pants leg is from the chisel getting wiped off, as I check how the sharpening is going. Old habit, wife frowns on my using a washrag for that.

Why would I put those stones ON my legs? They sat on a white cardboard mailing box. The only oil that even showed up on that white surface was from the 3in1 oil getting pushed over the edge by the chisel's strokes.

Sooo, when are you buying lunch?
Sooooooo, not so fast with the unch lay steven. You want me to believe that your stone soaked up the motor oil like a paper towel and it didn't all seep out? You led me to believe that it all soaked out onto your pant leg some how (not an ideal way to sharpen with your stone of course, but different strokes for different folks. Of course oil soaked into the stone - that's totally expected and not lunch worthy. Like I said before, all that oil (90%) is destined to weep back out onto your bench top, the cradboard, your pants leg, whatever. The motor oil is not going to congeal into a vaseline due to a bit of sunshine. How is different now that it was before the experiment?

[steven c newman]

I suppose I get to pick where lunch will be........hmmm. Waffle House?

Pssst..go back and read my answer again..SLOWLY this time. Haven't seen a drop of either oil seep out......either.

[Patrick Chase]

I suppose I get to pick where lunch will be........hmmm. Waffle House?

Pssst..go back and read my answer again..SLOWLY this time. Haven't seen a drop of either oil seep out......either.

Steven, I think the reason Pat is hesitating is because, like me, he is very aware that 3-in-1 is highly miscible in motor oil. Sooner or later it will reduce the overall viscosity of the motor oil to the point where gravity overcomes capillary (wicking) forces. Solids like waxes and semisolids like petroleum jelly are far more resistant to mixing, which is why I'm deeply disappointed that Norton didn't disclose what they actually use.

I'm willing to accept that your results suggest that motor oil is a reasonable practical substitute, which is why I conceded a few posts back, but you need to recognize that Pat is on extremely solid technical footing here.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; you might want to go back and review what's been mentioned earlier in this thread.



Patrick; I have contacted Norton direct, and requested further advice on restoring the oil fill within their stones. I may or may not get a response back, but its worth a try.



Yeah, I think that's a good idea [sound of me face palming because I didn't do that when I was in the same boat.


Received a phone call from Rao; Petroleum Jelly/ Vaseline is not used as part of their oil fill process. He would not recommend its use, to resolve the issues outlined by the OP.

Stewie;


Did he say what *is* used?


Patrick; that was mentioned during the discussion, but he emphasised that unless the process was tightly controlled, the results were likely to be unfavourable. He also covered the fact that; unless the stones mentioned by the OP were manufactured as non oil filled(specialised market for food preparation), that the oil fill should not dissipate under normal environmental conditions. Most likely the stones mentioned by the OP were either, non oil filled, or had been exposed to a solvent bath that had destroyed the oil fill. His recommendation to the OP was to not bother trying to resurrect the oil fill in those 2 stones, and to either consider purchasing new oil filled silicon carbide replacements, or take your chances at purchasing 2nd hand replacements.

Stewie;


I am shocked, shocked that Norton would urge somebody to replace an old oilstone with a brand new one instead of trying to fix it.

Back when I was a designated "speaker to the trade press" I gave that sort of explanation ("it's a very tightly controlled process with super-secret steps that nobody else could replicate even if we told them how it works") more times than I can count. Sometimes I even managed to keep a straight face while I said it. Suffice it to say that I don't find it credible.

I have nothing more to add to thread.

regards Stewie;

[steven c newman]

So far, there hasn't been either any seepage, nor Lunch. Any bets on which will happen first:rolleyes:

The motor oil has been sitting around since I bought the mower....a year ago. Maybe longer. I used a bit to top off the mower. Otherwise, it just sat around.

The oil that was on my pants leg? was the 3in1 oil. Didn't have a rag available to wipe the chisel with, to check how the bevel was doing. Old habit...use the pants leg. I used the white shipping box to check for any seepage under the stones ( am I going too fast here, keeping up??) all I found was where the 3in1 had been pushed over the side and ends of the stones. Do you want me to go and double check them?

We have both a Waffle House, and a Los Cabos Mexican eatery. :rolleyes:

[Pat Barry]

So far, there hasn't been either any seepage, nor Lunch. Any bets on which will happen first:rolleyes:

The motor oil has been sitting around since I bought the mower....a year ago. Maybe longer. I used a bit to top off the mower. Otherwise, it just sat around.

The oil that was on my pants leg? was the 3in1 oil. Didn't have a rag available to wipe the chisel with, to check how the bevel was doing. Old habit...use the pants leg. I used the white shipping box to check for any seepage under the stones ( am I going too fast here, keeping up??) all I found was where the 3in1 had been pushed over the side and ends of the stones. Do you want me to go and double check them?

We have both a Waffle House, and a Los Cabos Mexican eatery. :rolleyes:
So you soaked the stone in a bath of motor oil and then you pulled it out and towel it off and sat it out in the sunshine to dry and NOTHING seeped out? That stone soaked up the oil like a sponge and didn't let it go?

Patrick I wasn't even thinking of the dilution that might happen with the 3 in 1 oil. I just don't think there is enough surface tension in the stone to retain all that oil.

Steven, this was a simple grey hardware store stone, right? If nothing seeped out how do you know something is in there?

[steven c newman]

I MIGHT check them out the next time Sharpening Day comes around. Otherwise, stones have been put away til then. I took the time to do this experiment, and got some decent enough results. No one else wanted to even try.

That is all I have for this thread. Nothing more to add to this thread, other than.....

Lunchtime?:rolleyes:

[Pat Barry]

I MIGHT check them out the next time Sharpening Day comes around. Otherwise, stones have been put away til then. I took the time to do this experiment, and got some decent enough results. No one else wanted to even try.

That is all I have for this thread. Nothing more to add to this thread, other than.....

Lunchtime?:rolleyes:
I have an old grey hardware store stone like the one you used and I'll try to repeat your little experiment so I can see for myself. I'll use some 5W-30 and try to measure the volume in / out. If it retains enough you will get lunch money. Do you take Paypal?

[Patrick Chase]

I have an old grey hardware store stone like the one you used and I'll try to repeat your little experiment so I can see for myself. I'll use some 5W-30 and try to measure the volume in / out. If it retains enough you will get lunch money. Do you take Paypal?

The optimum would be the heaviest fixed-viscosity oil that will actually soak into the stone at room temperature. Unfortunately we don't know what that is, and it likely varies from stone to stone (with grit/porosity).

Here's one other wild idea: Soak in a mixture of a light oil and a gelling agent. Some of those take many minutes to work, so if the oil is light enough you should be able to achieve good absorption into the stone before the gelling agent fixes it. There are a bunch of other possible variations on this idea. I wonder if that's Norton's big secret?

As a bonus, you'd get to warn your friends to be careful because "your stones are filled with NAPALM!" (you'd have to be insane to actually make or use gelled gasoline for such a purpose, but most people probably wouldn't pick up on that immediately)

[Pat Barry]

Well I started on the experiment with flea market grey stone. Measured out 10 TSP of 10W40 and applied to the stone, 1/2 TSP per application and it is soaking in. It just might take a bit more. Waiting for it to settle in and then will top it off from opposite side.
Here it is after the 10th half teaspoon was applied.
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Here it is after the 20 half teaspons soaked in:
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[Patrick Chase]

Well I started on the experiment with flea market grey stone. Measured out 10 TSP of 10W40 and applied to the stone, 1/2 TSP per application and it is soaking in. It just might take a bit more. Waiting for it to settle in and then will top it off from opposite side.

Why not just soak it like Steven did and measure the weight at fixed time intervals afterward to detect seepage?

[Pat Barry]

Why not just soak it like Steven did and measure the weight at fixed time intervals afterward to detect seepage?
I would but I don't have a scale that is suitable at home.

[steven c newman]

I did notice a lot of air bubbles at the start of the soak......might check on when the bubbles stop. I had the oil about even with the top of the stones, at the start. Level soon dropped below the tops of the stones. That is why I also turned the stones over, slowly, so the oil could get under the stones.

[Pat Barry]

Todays update, ~ 24 hours post oil application, a bit has seeped out the bottom and is puddling up on the plastic paint can lid I used. Not much so far, maybe a few of the 1/2 TSP spoon fuls. I decide to stnad it up and let it be like that for another day. Then I'll have to weigh the oil or otherwise measure it to figure out how much is retained.
345556
345557
No lunch yet steven

[Patrick Chase]

Todays update, ~ 24 hours post oil application, a bit has seeped out the bottom and is puddling up on the plastic paint can lid I used. Not much so far, maybe a few of the 1/2 TSP spoon fuls. I decide to stnad it up and let it be like that for another day. Then I'll have to weigh the oil or otherwise measure it to figure out how much is retained.

I wonder if you're stone's coarser grit that Steven's?

Capillary forces are inversely proportional to channel (or in this case pore) diameter, and coarser grits have larger pores than finer ones. I can easily believe that the difference between what you're seeing ang what Steven did can be explained that way.

[Pat Barry]

I wonder if you're stone's coarser grit that Steven's?

Capillary forces are inversely proportional to channel (or in this case pore) diameter, and coarser grits have larger pores than finer ones. I can easily believe that the difference between what you're seeing ang what Steven did can be explained that way.
Perhaps so. Certainly the capillary forces are going to be the ones responsible for retention of the oil in the stone. My perception was that whatever went into the stone was not destined to stay there forever. There will be some sort of limit as to what the stone can retain. Not sure if steven's stone or mine took on more oil before becoming saturated. I'm really curious to see how much comes back out of mine though.

[Patrick Chase]

Perhaps so. Certainly the capillary forces are going to be the ones responsible for retention of the oil in the stone. My perception was that whatever went into the stone was not destined to stay there forever. There will be some sort of limit as to what the stone can retain. Not sure if steven's stone or mine took on more oil before becoming saturated. I'm really curious to see how much comes back out of mine though.

If the capillary forces are strong enough (combination of pores small enough and fluid viscous enough) then in principle the oil could stay in there until/unless its viscosity decreases for some reason. The most likely "some reason" would be mixing over time with a lighter, thinner oil. Like, say, 3-in-1 :-).

[Pat Barry]

If the capillary forces are strong enough (combination of pores small enough and fluid viscous enough) then in principle the oil could stay in there until/unless its viscosity decreases for some reason. The most likely "some reason" would be mixing over time with a lighter, thinner oil. Like, say, 3-in-1 :-).
I think that is likely. What I am wondering is why n ot just use more 10W40 each time the stone gets used rather than 3 in 1 oil. That's what I will use now that its all charged up!

[Stewie Simpson]

Pat; I have to say with your engineering background, I am a little surprised your experiment wasn't more tightly controlled. The lowest expectation would have seen the stone accurately weighed before the oil fill commenced.

Stewie;

[Pat Barry]

Stewie, like I said, i don't have an accurate scale for this sort of thing. I can however accurately measure the amount of oil that weeps out. If need be, I'll repeat the test with a better measurement method. Note: the weight of the oil is pretty small fraction of the weight of the stone.

[Pat Barry]

As of last night, three days after soaking, the stone was still weeping oil out. Not sure how much except there was a small puddle around the stone on the plastic paint lid it was setting on. Now I need to transfer the oil to a measuring device. I'm thinking tonight I will make a hole in the lid and set it up so it will drain into a small cup for weighing.

[Pat Barry]

One week after the stone was soaked with oil, the oil continues to drip out.
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[Steve Voigt]

We have both a Waffle House, and a Los Cabos Mexican eatery. :rolleyes:

What a panoply of fine dining options. How will you and Pat ever choose?

[Luke Dupont]

This has been a really informative thread.

I actually opted, instead of doing the vaseline thing, to just soak my stone in some heavy weight mineral oil (which I also found works for sharpening on such a coarse stone).

It doesn't appear to seep out oil, and I can use it even with light mineral oil now. Maybe not a long term solution, but then, it doesn't need to be really.

However, the stone is not much to my liking. It is *insanely* soft, and if used with oil, quickly creates a mud of its own grit particles. It does cut fast, at least.

I've been using it as a "beater" stone for things like grinding a steel rod into an awl, or grinding pocket stones and slip stones out of some some of the many soft arks that I have laying around.

Incidentally, but off-topic; I'm sort of getting into stone cutting as a result of having a bunch of cheap stones in sizes that I'd like to modify. Not knowing what I was doing, I dulled a cheap hacksaw blade before switching to flathead screwdriver that I fashioned into a stone cutting chisel, which worked wonderfully; I managed to cut a stone cleanly in two to make two little pocket stones. Now to try some leather working to make a pouch for it!

[steven c newman]

Might look into a mason's saw blade? Diamond blades for either a wet saw or one for an angle grinder.