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Wade Lippman
09-28-2016, 5:58 PM
I am going to plant a tree near a utility pole. It is several feet off the direct line from the pole to my house. The gas line was just marked (don't know why, but when my neighbor had it done they did mine also...) and it is near where I would expect the electric/cable to be. 3 years ago I had some landscaping professionally done in the same area and they didn't mark the electric, saying it was privately installed and they don't know where it is. The landscaper thought it was safe and planted 3 trees, but I am anal about these things.

1) How deep are these likely to have been buried in 2005?
2) Is it likely the electric and cable are in the same trench as the gas? (they all go the same place, and come from about the same place)
3) Are electric and cable sturdy enough to survive being hit by a shovel?

I know you haven't seen it, and things are often different than what they should be; just asking what is normal.

Roger Nair
09-28-2016, 6:21 PM
When in doubt, we can call Miss Utility and people will come to your lot and mark the underground services. If you don't get the survey, you can be held libel for damages and repair. Call the utility company and get a referral or ask an excavator, they should know.

Mike Henderson
09-28-2016, 6:26 PM
I hit a buried electric line (240V) at a house one time. The transformer was at the back of the lot next door and the power to my house ran from there, underground, to the meter on my house. I was putting in a fence and digging the hole for a post when I hit the power line. My shovel had a nice round "ding" in the edge where it hit the power line - there were some sparks (not a lot) and the power went off. I assume they have some fusing in the transformer to protect the transformer. I never felt a thing (wooden handle).

The power company came by and when I told them what happened, they said it was common to have someone hit a buried line when putting in a fence. Anyway, they fixed the line - had to dig up the area - and did whatever they needed to do in the transformer housing and I was back in business. Didn't charge me anything.

I never even thought the power line might be there or I would have called to have it marked.

Oh, I'm going to guess that it was over two feed down - probably just over two feet. Certainly not three.

Mike

Wayne Lomman
09-28-2016, 6:31 PM
Get a contractor to map it. As Roger said, if you damage it you are liable and if you need to do future work, digging up services under trees is expensive.

A neighbouring farmer to me got the maps off the telephone mob, it said the cable was the other side of the road, so he thought, no worries and bored a new post hole and it cut the cable to the whole district. He tried to blame the phone company at which point they directed him to the fine print which says the maps may not be accurate. He had to pay. He is still regretting not getting an actual detection contractor. Cheers

Myk Rian
09-28-2016, 6:41 PM
3) Are electric and cable sturdy enough to survive being hit by a shovel?
Is anyone willing to be electrocuted finding out?

Sean Troy
09-28-2016, 7:06 PM
I am going to plant a tree near a utility pole. It is several feet off the direct line from the pole to my house. The gas line was just marked (don't know why, but when my neighbor had it done they did mine also...) and it is near where I would expect the electric/cable to be. 3 years ago I had some landscaping professionally done in the same area and they didn't mark the electric, saying it was privately installed and they don't know where it is. The landscaper thought it was safe and planted 3 trees, but I am anal about these things.

1) How deep are these likely to have been buried in 2005?
2) Is it likely the electric and cable are in the same trench as the gas? (they all go the same place, and come from about the same place)
3) Are electric and cable sturdy enough to survive being hit by a shovel?

I know you haven't seen it, and things are often different than what they should be; just asking what is normal.

When a backhoe was being used to dig footers for my shop, the operator did one last scrap and gently hit the power cable. Quite the explosion and burned a hole in the backhoes bucket. It's not not worth it at all to even try digging around a buried power line. You would not likely survive it or wished you didn't.

Wade Lippman
09-28-2016, 7:14 PM
Simpler question...
They go underground and come back up in heavy pvc conduit. Does that go all the way?

Mike Cutler
09-28-2016, 7:20 PM
1) How deep are these likely to have been buried in 2005?
2) Is it likely the electric and cable are in the same trench as the gas? (they all go the same place, and come from about the same place)
3) Are electric and cable sturdy enough to survive being hit by a shovel?

I know you haven't seen it, and things are often different than what they should be; just asking what is normal.

1.) 18" nominal. Frost protection, heaving, may apply based on zone.
2.) Yes and no. The may be in a common Trench, but the gas should have marker tape on it. They may have different substrate requirements based on zoning.
3.) No, and you may not be either. Both are probably direct burial.

Wade
It only cost a couple hundred to have a service come out and map them for you. In some local's the utility company will do it for free. I would have it done.
In 2005 there would be a map on file showing the burial locations. It had to be inspected prior to filling.

PS
the water might be 3 -1/2' below the electric. ;)

Howard Garner
09-28-2016, 7:44 PM
Yes, get it checked.
Down here is SC we have a state wide number to call that in turn notifies all the utilities to check at your work site.
This is a free service. Check with any of you local untilities for something like that in your area.
Talk nice to the guys/gals that come to do the work, they may only be required to check to the property line.

Howard Garner

Frederick Skelly
09-28-2016, 7:52 PM
Just an aside..... I know a guy who put in his own swimming pool. While operating a rented backhoe, he hit a buried power line. It was deemed to be his fault and cost him TWENTY THOUSAND dollars. His wife came extremely close to having a full-up mental breakdown over it.

Wade Lippman
09-28-2016, 8:03 PM
Yes, get it checked.
Down here is SC we have a state wide number to call that in turn notifies all the utilities to check at your work site.
This is a free service. Check with any of you local untilities for something like that in your area.
Talk nice to the guys/gals that come to do the work, they may only be required to check to the property line.

Howard Garner

But like I said, when I called them 3 years ago they said it was privately installed and they have no idea.

This is for a 20" deep hand dug hole for a tree.
If the cables run in the same conduits they go into and out off the ground, I don't think a shovel could dent it. Which is why I asked about the conduit.

Bruce Page
09-28-2016, 8:04 PM
Checking for underground utilities is a free service here. I've had the out two different times. They seemed happy to do it.

Pat Barry
09-28-2016, 8:15 PM
But like I said, when I called them 3 years ago they said it was privately installed and they have no idea.

This is for a 20" deep hand dug hole for a tree.
If the cables run in the same conduits they go into and out off the ground, I don't think a shovel could dent it. Which is why I asked about the conduit.
I believe that its the job of these folks to figure out where the lines go and they do it using special electronic equipment. They don't have a map.

Myk Rian
09-28-2016, 8:15 PM
I don't think a shovel could dent it. Which is why I asked about the conduit.
You don't know much about the power of a shovel. I don't care if its PVC, steel pipe, or whatever else. A shovel will break it.
Call 1-800-962-7962 in N.Y.

Bruce Wrenn
09-28-2016, 9:21 PM
I've used free service more than once. Even if we dug there last month, we call again. I have electric running down driveway for lights, and to well pump, which they aren't required to locate. A $20 tip had them located in a couple minutes though. Good money spent. Several years back, contractor digging foundation for new stop lights bored into gas line. He lost a rig during fire, but no one was hurt. This was directly across street from hospital, which means they lost gas service too. After all was said and done, it was concluded that gas line wasn't marked correctly. Prior to digging, I like to take pictures of markings for reference, just in case.

James Gunning
09-28-2016, 10:23 PM
Another thing to consider is how much will those tree roots grow and will they threaten one of the utilities. Been in this house over 20 years and had no utility problems. All deep enough that routine yard work including installing a sprinkler system didn't disturb them. Then last year I got a call from the county water utility. They said I had an exceptionally high water usage. Went around checking but could find nothing leaking. Days later I notice water running out from under sod along a front sidewalk. Turned out an oak tree planted there years ago had grown large enough that the root system was pressing on the PVC supply line to the house. It eventually cracked a fitting where the pipe made a turn and the utility claimed it leaked something like 240,000 gallons of water through that tiny crack. I tried to fight it because I still don't believe that much water could have leaked out. In the end I had to pay for the wasted water, but did get some relief from them. I relocated the pipe further away from the tree. Utility said all the pipe after the street-side in-ground meter was my responsibility.

Stan Calow
09-28-2016, 10:48 PM
If you're tree will be that close to utility poles, whether its on top the lines or not, its still subject to getting removed if the need to get to the lines.

I have neighborhood cable and phone nodes in the yard and lines going through my yard, and branching off to other houses. Seems every year they need to come in and mark to do some work on one line or the other. I talk to the guy marking them when I get a chance and he tells me that his detector device is accurate plus or minus 2 feet. Thats not very confident. In planting near the lines, I've come across ones that were that far away from the markings. Most of the phone and cable lines are just laid unprotected black wires under the surface sometimes less than six inches deep.

Jerome Stanek
09-29-2016, 8:12 AM
When I put my fence in I witched the lines as they belong to me. 2 water 1 sewer 1 electric and 1 low voltage that I had to cross. We always hand dig around lines

Myk Rian
09-29-2016, 10:13 AM
If you're tree will be that close to utility poles, whether its on top the lines or not, its still subject to getting removed if the need to get to the lines.

I have neighborhood cable and phone nodes in the yard and lines going through my yard, and branching off to other houses. Seems every year they need to come in and mark to do some work on one line or the other.
5 years ago a crew came through and lopped off the top of a maple tree under the wires. This year I told them to take it down. I saved the bottom section of the trunk to make a table. It'll be sitting on the front porch for a few years to dry out.

Jim Becker
09-29-2016, 2:38 PM
Wade, I didn't read through the thread so this might already have been mentioned, but even though that one line was already marked for a neighbors' project, you need to do the "one call" thing and get them out to mark for "your" project to be sure you're covered. The "one call" folks may be able to indicate to you what the depth is based on records, too. Don't dig until you have done this yourself.

Malcolm McLeod
09-29-2016, 3:09 PM
Not a lot different to add, but call locator! It's free!

In TX, the (buried) electric service to house has to be 48 inches below grade. (I did NOT dig this by hand.)

Lee Schierer
09-29-2016, 4:59 PM
Just be aware that when the tree grows to mature size if it gets too close to the pole, the utility company will come by one day and trim the tree to remai clear of the pole without regard to how it looks when they are done.

Bill Orbine
09-29-2016, 6:52 PM
I am going to plant a tree near a utility pole. It is several feet off the direct line from the pole to my house. The gas line was just marked (don't know why, but when my neighbor had it done they did mine also...) and it is near where I would expect the electric/cable to be. 3 years ago I had some landscaping professionally done in the same area and they didn't mark the electric, saying it was privately installed and they don't know where it is. The landscaper thought it was safe and planted 3 trees, but I am anal about these things.

1) How deep are these likely to have been buried in 2005?
2) Is it likely the electric and cable are in the same trench as the gas? (they all go the same place, and come from about the same place)
3) Are electric and cable sturdy enough to survive being hit by a shovel?

I know you haven't seen it, and things are often different than what they should be; just asking what is normal.

This is like asking if it's safe to reach down into the throat of a running tablesaw with a blade. Call 811..... not 911!

Gary Cunningham
09-29-2016, 8:25 PM
[QUOTE=Myk Rian;2608745]Is anyone willing to be electrocuted finding out

Joe Kieve
09-30-2016, 1:45 PM
Like Bill said...call 811. http://call811.com/

Steve Peterson
10-01-2016, 1:03 PM
Out here in California, there are small signs all over the place saying to call before you dig. The utilities do not charge and you are not liable if you hit a line that they did not mark. It seems like an obvious thing to do.

Steve

Wade Lippman
10-02-2016, 11:19 AM
As I said in my first post, I had it marked 3years ago. Except the electric,which they had no record of. But I tried again. It was identical, as you would expect. So I learned nothing

I will make 3 assumptions...
1 the electric runs in the same ditch as everything else,well away from the work area.
2 even if it doesn't, it is probably too deep to matter
3 even if it doesn't the shovel probably can't hurt the conduit

Jim Becker
10-02-2016, 8:13 PM
While the results "should" be the same as previous marking, it's important to make the call to insure you're covered for liability "this time". Sometimes they come out multiple times for the same job because different trades called it in. :)

John K Jordan
10-02-2016, 10:12 PM
As I said in my first post, I had it marked 3years ago. Except the electric,which they had no record of. But I tried again. It was identical, as you would expect. So I learned nothing

I will make 3 assumptions...
1 the electric runs in the same ditch as everything else,well away from the work area.
2 even if it doesn't, it is probably too deep to matter
3 even if it doesn't the shovel probably can't hurt the conduit



Wade,

I just saw this and didn't read all the posts, so if this was covered, sorry. My take: your logic scares me!
- You can't assume any specific depth, even if the code requires it.
- You can't assume there is continuous conduit.
- You can't assume any lines are in the same trench.
- You can't even assume things run in a straight line between end points.
This you can assume: hitting the wrong thing can ruin your day or more.

I live on a 27 acre farm and all utilities are underground. This is what I know from my own experience:

The path of buried lines may vary. My experience: I have 600ft of underground power from the property line to my house as well as water, phone, and cable. All the utilities are buried in different trenches. All are at different depths, from 3" for cable TV to 24" for water and deeper for power. (The minimum depth for water depends on the frost line in your climate.) None are run in straight lines for several reasons. Some even make seemingly random S-curves that might make no sense at first. I even put a big curve in the line to my shop to give the underground power line in the next paragraph plenty of room.

The required depth of electrical lines may depend on the voltage and amperage. The actual depth may be different. My experience: the first 600' of my underground electrical line is 7200 volts to a transformer about 50' from my house. I have no idea of the amperage available but I'm sure it is enough to kill 300 people at once. That 600' of line is SUPPOSED to be buried 48" deep because if you hit 7200 volts you die. However, the guy marking the line got confusing readings. I ran into one of the utility guys who helped lay the line over 30 years before and he told me the story: the crew hit solid rock and the line is less than 18" deep in places. Assume nothing.

BTW, that 7200v line was shorted last year through a nearly invisible pinhole at a weakened spot in the insulation. It made a loud explosion and we were without power for most of the day while it was dug up and repaired. What if your shovel just happened to hit a weakened spot in an electrical cable?

You cannot assume the conduit is continuous underground. My experience: our 7200 volt line is not in conduit. The TV cable is in a very tough, flexible conduit. When I dug a trench and buried my own 220v line 250' to the shop I used continuous conduit. When I buried electrical line 1000' down a field I did not use continuous conduit underground but I DID install conduit into the ground on both ends, straight down to an ell then about 3' horizontally. I did this to protect the wire from damage at the surface but it was not needed through the field. (For underground lines I always place a continuous red warning tape a few inches above the cable, add 6-12" of dirt, tamp, lay down another length of warning tape, then fill to the surface. My idea is I'll dig up the tape first which will show me exactly where the line is. Don't assume anyone else does this.)

Bottom line, don't assume anything. The safe way to dig around underground electrical lines is to first turn the power off. If the power is fed by a meter or utility transformer the utility company will gladly turn it off then back on again when you are done. When modifying the service entrance when I was running power to the shop I had them kill the power at the property line.

As I'm sure others mentioned, call the OneCall number and get it marked. That still won't prevent you from hitting something but it will remove your financial liability if you do. Around here, some of the utilities will not bother to even come out and mark, probably assuming in the long run they save money even if they have to fix an occasional break, but you are still protected if you call and dig when they tell you to. The electrical people ALWAYS mark and are usually the first. Note there is a expiration time limit on the marks - after a certain date/time your liability returns even if nothing has changed. Always call.

Also, some companies will not mark the private portion of the utilities, for example at my place, any of the 600' of pipe from the water meter to the house. The landowner is responsible for anything past the meter anyway so they don't care if you dig up the water line. Sometimes a pleasant guy who is not in a big hurry will mark other lines for you if you ask nicely. Also, I've met a few who have their own equipment and can be hired to mark private lines on their days off.

JKJ

Jerome Stanek
10-03-2016, 6:49 AM
Way back when I worked planting trees I hit a phone line in the back yard of a house. They ran the line along the property line across the back yard back down the other property line and into the side of the house. never would have thought they would do it that way as they should have just cane up the one side and into the house.

Dan Friedrichs
10-03-2016, 1:25 PM
When I put my fence in I witched the lines as they belong to me. 2 water 1 sewer 1 electric and 1 low voltage that I had to cross. We always hand dig around lines

"witching" is completely bogus, and has been scientifically disproven...

John K Jordan
10-03-2016, 1:55 PM
"witching" is completely bogus, and has been scientifically disproven...

That may generate some discussion. I watched an elderly gentleman use two rods to locate my grandmother's grave. In my skepticism I asked if it worked for anyone. With the rods in my own hands they absolutely turned and crossed when I walked over a known grave, felt like they were alive. My brother, also highly skeptical, tried it with the same result. Hard to explain...

JKJ

Dan Friedrichs
10-03-2016, 2:44 PM
That may generate some discussion.

I don't mean for it to - my point was that the OP should not rely on it to locate electrical wires :)

There have been numerous well-controlled scientific studies that have shown it's no better than chance. If you already "knew" the location of the grave, you likely (perhaps unintentionally) allowed the rods to move slightly - something known as the "ideomotor" effect.

Not only does it fail to exhibit any positive results in a controlled study, it also has absolutely no basis in logic. We know a good deal about the physical universe - what mysterious, previously-unknown force causes dead bodies to exert a force - through feet of dirt - on sticks, rods, or any other random object someone may be holding? Total hocus pocus.

John K Jordan
10-03-2016, 7:19 PM
There have been numerous well-controlled scientific studies that have shown it's no better than chance. If you already "knew" the location of the grave, you likely (perhaps unintentionally) allowed the rods to move slightly - something known as the "ideomotor" effect.

You think as I do - it does not make sense. Yes, hocus-pocus. Nonsense. Bunk. Yes, I've read studies and comments and all logical argument says the same. I hadn't experienced it myself we still wouldn't believe it!

I was not about to believe and I STILL would not believe it if I wasn't there (my background is in science, engineering, and software development - all quite logical endeavors). I know a bit about forces, fields, electromagnetism and the like.

Since even after we tried it on that spot we still couldn't believe it, my brother and I walked over overgrown ground with several marked graves but without seeing the markers. All places where the rods moved turned out to have grave markers. We did experiments with eyes closed and over marked graves and unmarked areas. And the rods didn't move "slightly". They suddenly and quickly went from straight ahead (parallel) to crossed. It was, to be sure, extremely freaky. Our sister was there and couldn't believe it either. We all suspected some sort of sham but could see no way it could be pulled off and no reason for it. We didn't WANT to believe it. If I had been by myself I might think now I had dreamed or hallucinated the whole thing.

These rods were copper, extended maybe 18" horizontally and each had an L-shaped bend on one end for "handle".

The kind (and feeble) older gentleman who brought out the rods was the caretaker for the cemetery. He said he'd been trying to quit that job for years but the church couldn't find anyone else who would do it. He only went back to his shed to get the rods after we couldn't find a grave marker in the designated plot. Besides locating unmarked graves, he said he always used the rods to make sure there was not already an old unmarked grave where a new grave was about to be dug.

The only logical thing I could imagine had to do with electrical fields but nothing I and associates (at the laboratory where I worked) could imagine made sense either. To me it is one of those strange things that may never be explained. Our sister did do some research on returning home and said all she found was references to the occult that scared her. Go figure. I've puzzled about this for many years!

JKJ

Dan Friedrichs
10-03-2016, 7:51 PM
All I can say is that a few people doing a few experiments is bound to give "positive" results sometimes. The chances of flipping a coin and getting "heads" are 50/50, yet sometimes you can flip a coin 20 times and get 20 "heads". Doesn't mean that there is magic or electrical fields or anything - it just means the experimental design and/or conditions are returning results that don't represent the truth.

People HAVE done controlled experiments, where they bring in "expert dowsers", "hide" objects underground at specific locations, etc, and they have found that "witching" is no better than chance.

richard b miller
10-03-2016, 8:51 PM
call a local engineering firm and ask for the number for the utilities locator. here in alabama, they also do it for free. it might take a day or two for them to come out and mark your lines.

Jerome Stanek
10-04-2016, 7:00 AM
Witching may be bunk for you but I have been using it for years for my friend who is an excavator. Most times I have never been on the land before but it works for me.

Kev Williams
10-04-2016, 11:13 AM
Here in Utah (and I notice Arizona) we have a thing called "Blue Stakes", which is a 'utility notification service', phone number 811, that we are supposed to call -by law, I think- before digging in our yards. You call, they come out let you know exactly where everything- gas, water, sewer, electric, cable, phone, fiber optic- IS in your yard. They run TV ads all the time...

Ken Combs
10-04-2016, 1:21 PM
3 years ago I had some landscaping professionally done in the same area and they didn't mark the electric, saying it was privately installed and they don't know where it is. The landscaper thought it was safe and planted 3 trees, but I am anal about these things.



In my area the locating service is free and covers all utility installed services . I think that is pretty much standard in most if not all states. But, note the utility installation. If you meter is on your house, the utility probably installed the service. If your meter is on the pole, the line from the meter to the house is likely a owner/contracter installed item.

Maybe ask for a locate for phone, gas, cable etc. Then, offer a tip to the tech for the electric locate.

Jerome Stanek
10-04-2016, 4:21 PM
I have a gas line that the 811 companies can not find also some water lines that the neighbor has along with my waterline. there are no tracer wires for these so I end up witching for the neighborhood. most neighbors won't believe me when I tell them there is a line right here and when they dig there is a line. I witched many electric lines in the old Revco stores. One electrician told me I was full of XXit when I told him there was a line right where I needed an outlet he said he put the lines in and it was over about 2 feet. He dug the outlet in and said I told you so but he needed to go just a little deeper so the outlet would be flush with the floor. He stabbed his shove in and cut the line he said wasn't there.

Larry Frank
10-04-2016, 7:10 PM
I do not believe in witching but others swear by it.

I know that if I have the Indiana 811 come out and mark the lines I am covered for liability with the utility companies. If I have someone else do witching, then the liability is mine.

Jerome Stanek
10-05-2016, 6:59 AM
I do not believe in witching but others swear by it.

I know that if I have the Indiana 811 come out and mark the lines I am covered for liability with the utility companies. If I have someone else do witching, then the liability is mine.

what if there is no tracer wire in the line. My gas line does not have one and they can not trace it

Jim Becker
10-05-2016, 10:40 AM
what if there is no tracer wire in the line. My gas line does not have one and they can not trace it

I have that issue here. They "trace" it via measurements off a diagram they obtain/have from PECO, the gas supplier. It's "close", but one must take care. When our addition was going on and an extension from the meter to that side of the house had to be dug, the main line (which is surprisingly tiny from the street was about a foot off the measured location and got nicked. PECO promptly fixed it gratis because the 811 (OneCall in PA) location service had been done and logged.

Kev Williams
10-05-2016, 11:58 AM
I BELIEVE in witching, I've seen it done many times, and I've actually done it. First time I saw it was when a county water guy needed to find the main underground so as to run a line to my uncle's cabin he was building. He used metal rods with the one end bent into a 2x6" or so rectangle as a hand hold. He walked across the dirt road and the rods swung out just about the middle of the road. "That was the easy one"... Then he had to find the capped line that teed off the main. He walked along the road edge until the rods swung again, then verified it coming from the other direction. The line was right there 5' down. I asked him how it worked-- "I have no clue, it just does"...

One day for fun I bent a couple of coat hangers, and tried to locate a water line I knew was somewhere in the vicinity. Blew my mind when the wires started swinging.

For those who don't believe, I have one word: Magnetism. We all know it's there, and we couldn't live without it. And we take it for granted even though it's completely invisible to all our senses... :)

Dan Friedrichs
10-05-2016, 2:21 PM
For those who don't believe, I have one word: Magnetism. We all know it's there, and we couldn't live without it. And we take it for granted even though it's completely invisible to all our senses... :)

So why does it "work" with sticks? Are sticks magnetic?

And how does a buried pipe produce a magnetic field? (hint: it doesn't. We can measure magnetic fields)

Dan Hulbert
10-10-2016, 9:22 AM
I work for a very large construction company. When they need to dig in areas where they are not certain of the undergrounds, they "pot-hole" first. A commercial potholer is a trailer mounted rig with a water lance and a vacuum rig. While I haven't tried it at home (yet) a pressure washer and a wet-dry vacuum are conceptually the same.
It's messy work, Tyvek suits and face shields required, but will not damage underground utilities. Usually done by two guys, one with the lance and the other with the vacuum hose.

Wade Lippman
10-10-2016, 10:40 AM
As I said in my first post, I had it marked 3years ago. Except the electric,which they had no record of. But I tried again. It was identical, as you would expect. So I learned nothing

I will make 3 assumptions...
1 the electric runs in the same ditch as everything else,well away from the work area.
2 even if it doesn't, it is probably too deep to matter
3 even if it doesn't the shovel probably can't hurt the conduit

I had the electric and cable professionally marked for $150. Turns out assumption 1 was correct; assumption 2 is likely, and 3 is unknown.
1 The electric and cable ran between the already marked gas and telephone the entire way.
2 Their depth is unknown, but code is 18". 3 years ago a landscaper planted a redbud directly over the cable, and that turned out okay.
3 The town inspector told me proper practice is to run conduit all the way, but it is not code and I shouldn't rely on it as some contractors don't do it.