Needle files

[Patrick Chase]

This is a borderline obsessive tangent from the saw sharpening critique/input (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?247459-saw-sharpening-critique-input) thread.

Here are close-ups of the tips and tangs of 5 types of needle files that I have on hand. From top to bottom: Grobet USA, Grobet Swiss, Glardon-Vallorbe, Nicholson, Bahco. The Nicholson and Bahco files are 6", the others are all 7-7/8".

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A few remarks: All but the "Grobet USA" are Swiss made. We know that the "Grobet Swiss" and "Glardon-Vallorbe" files are the same file from the same UMV factory. The Nicholson has identical knurling, toothing, and (scaled down) profile so I think it's a near certainty that one comes from UMV as well. The Bahco is identical to the Nicholson in every respect except knurling/engraving, so I think it's a safe bet that's also a product of UMV. In the Otto Frei video that Stewie posted in the other thread they claim that all needle files manufactured in Switzerland come from UMV, and finally I can't tell any difference among the four in terms of performance.

The Grobet USA file is made in Italy, and has noticeably different surface color/reflectivity, different toothing, and a less "full" tip profile with a blunt point. From past experience I suspect it's actually a Corradi, though I don't have one of those on hand to compare to at the moment. In terms of performance it's right up there with the others. IMO it's less smooth and finely finished than the Swiss contingent, but the steel may be a bit harder.

So the bottom line is that for needle files basically all of the "big name" brands except Grobet USA end up being the same thing, and they're all at least decent.

EDIT: One other point of similarity between the Swiss files: The shafts of all 4 were turned at the same feed rate (you can see the machining marks very clearly in the full-res images, and moderately clearly in the downscaled SMC versions).

[george wilson]

I judge needle files partially from how sharp their corners are. I have a whole lot of sets (dozens of sets) of Swiss made needle files that are NOS,over 100 years old. They have the sharpest corners you will ever see on needle files. And,their other qualities are the best you will ever see. They have the smooth tangs.

I doubt that your knurled handles are done by feed rates. I expect they are all done by clenching the tangs in a scissor like knurl that is the full width of the finished knurl on the tang.

The Italian one seen above is the only decent job of knurling !

[Patrick Chase]

I doubt that your knurled handles are done by feed rates. I expect they are all done by clenching the tangs in a scissor like knurl that is the full width of the finished knurl on the tang.


I wasn't referring to the knurling. As you say that was done by compression rather than cutting. I was referring to the more subtle banding on the shafts of all 4 of the Swiss needle files. It's about every other pixel in the downscaled SMC version of the image, so you may need to zoom in to see it. I missed it the first several times I looked at those images, and in fact I didn't notice it in the actual files until after I'd seen it in the images.

Completely agreed w.r.t. older files' superior quality. My main point here is that for people buying new needle files, you're pretty much going to end up with what appears to be the same thing no matter what brand you buy (though Stewie correctly points out that there may be more subtle differences).

I agree w.r.t. the knurling on the Grobet USA. Corradi is no slouch as manufacturers go.

EDIT: Here's a crop of the shafts of the Grobet USA and Grobet Swiss needle files (it's from the same image as in my first post). Note the very fine banding on the bottom file. All of the Swiss files show that. I suspect the reason it's visible at all is because I used an off-camera flash (from ~90 deg to the right, with a diffuser). I did that to bring out the toothing, but it did the same to the machining marks as well.

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[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; before suggesting that all of those needle files were made by the same company, and to the same standard (excluding the Italian made one), contact Usines Métallurgiques de Vallorbe and let them state the facts. http://www.vallorbe.com/en-ch/contact-us

regards Stewie;

[Phil Mueller]

Maybe it's just the lighting, but the Grobet Swiss appears to have a much sharper edge than the others. Overall though, makes you wonder if the factory makes these files to brand specs or just cranks out files and stamps different names on them (looks like probably the latter).

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; before suggesting that all of those needle files were made by the same company, and to the same standard (excluding the Italian made one), contact Usines Métallurgiques de Vallorbe and let them state the facts. http://www.vallorbe.com/en-ch/contact-us

regards Stewie;

Having been involved in many such supplier relationships I very much doubt that they *can* state the facts. Those contracts almost always contain gag/confidentiality clauses. I'll give it a go as you suggest, though.

Thanks as always for the remark - you're absolutely right that they may make files to different standards, though I haven't yet seen evidence of that here (either visually or in terms of performance). I edited #3 to reflect your point.

[Stewie Simpson]

The following info is from Usines Métallurgiques de Vallorbe website.

http://www.vallorbe.com/en-ch/company/brands

[Patrick Chase]

Maybe it's just the lighting, but the Grobet Swiss appears to have a much sharper edge than the others. Overall though, makes you wonder if the factory makes these files to brand specs or just cranks out files and stamps different names on them (looks like probably the latter).

These are needle files with face widths of 0.16" or so, so they're all pretty sharp-cornered compared to any taper file. Even the Grobet USA file's corner is less than 10 mils, and all of the Swiss files are down in the single digits. The light source in this case was an off-camera flash positioned to the right. It was about a foot from the files and was bounced off of a ~6" x 6" diffusing surface, so the light source was fairly non-specular as flash goes. I don't think lighting effects would be a big deal here.

With that said, I basically picked files and edges at random, and from experience I think that the Swiss files are all in the same range. The Grobet USA files are a little less sharp-cornered.

[Patrick Chase]

The following info is from Usines Métallurgiques de Vallorbe website.

http://www.vallorbe.com/en-ch/company/brands

Those are the brands they *sell*, which are not necessarily the same as the brands they manufacture. I doubt their contracts would allow them to say whose stuff they make.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; if the notion is to suggest that all the swiss made files are made at the same factory and to the same level of quality. Which is what your suggesting to others. Then I do think Usines Métallurgiques de Vallorbe deserve the opportunity of right of reply. imo

regards Stewie.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; if the notion is to suggest that all the swiss made files are made at the same factory and to the same level of quality. Which is what your suggesting to others. Then I do think Usines Métallurgiques de Vallorbe deserve the opportunity of right of reply. imo

regards Stewie.

Absolutely. Feel free to invite them. I already sent a message via the link you posted though I don't expect a reply.

As someone who's been involved in such supplier relationships it's my experience that industry insiders usually do know who's making stuff for whom even if it isn't public. The video you posted in the other thread is what got me interested enough to do a close examination. Believe it or not I don't take pictures of files just for fun. She states at 0:30 that "Vallorbe [the town] is where all Swiss files are made". Some quick research indicated that UMV is the only significant file factory in Vallorbe (and the total population of the town is only ~3000), so that's actually an extremely suggestive statement by an insider.

With that said, it's possible she misspoke, so we need some additional confirmation. The pictures provide that. Those files came from the same manufacturing process, full stop. Same dimensions, same machining marks on the shafts, same toothing, same knurling (other than the Bahco) etc. There could be underlying quality differences, but as a mechanical engineer I am quite sure those came from the same maker and probably the same factory. The only case I've ever seen where there were similarities that deep from different manufacturers was when one of them stole part and tool designs from the other, and didn't bother to make changes to conceal the fact. You can usually tell that has happened when the lawsuits start flying.

[george wilson]

I just read the link provided. I was certain that those "Valtitian" files were hard chrome plated. The link confirmed it. They had no idea about it at Rio Grande,where I bought some for the toolmaker's shop.

Back in the 1950's Sears sold a hard chromed file under the craftsman brand. I did not like them at that time as they just didn't "look right" to my then young,and less experienced eyes. Now,such files are lauded by Rio Grande as a superior file! Suitable for filing extra hard metals like platinum. At 72 RC,that coating is certainly a lot harder than an ordinary file!! And,they cost more! I'd bet that the old Sears file had a thicker coating of chrome,too!! I recall the teeth of my Craftsman file looked a little "furry" at the time,due to the chrome plating. I did not notice that on the Valtitian files I bought not so long ago.

Chrome plating in the USA is not done so much any more (but still done to some degree),due to concerns about chemicals getting into the air. You certainly would not want to breathe any of that stuff! As careful as I am when I nickel plate even a small item,wearing nitrile gloves,and with a hood,I still get that nasty,metallic taste in my mouth,and on my lips. Takes forever to get it gone.

I guess that Sears was ahead of the curve on that product!!!!

My 100+ year old needle file sets look more like the nearly unmarked shank of the "Italy"files,though mine are marked "Swiss Made",or some such. The Italian file seems to have a MUCH finer "feed line" than the Swiss one,though that may be pixels beginning to interfere with the picture. Hard to tell.

[Patrick Chase]

I just read the link provided. I was certain that those "Valtitian" files were hard chrome plated. The link confirmed it. They had no idea about it at Rio Grande,where I bought some for the toolmaker's shop.

Back in the 1950's Sears sold a hard chromed file under the craftsman brand. I did not like them at that time as they just didn't "look right" to my then young,and less experienced eyes. Now,such files are lauded by Rio Grande as a superior file! Suitable for filing extra hard metals like platinum. At 72 RC,that coating is certainly a lot harder than an ordinary file!! And,they cost more! I'd bet that the old Sears file had a thicker coating of chrome,too!! I recall the teeth of my Craftsman file looked a little "furry" at the time,due to the chrome plating. I did not notice that on the Valtitian files I bought not so long ago.

Chrome plating in the USA is not done so much any more (but still done to some degree),due to concerns about chemicals getting into the air. You certainly would not want to breathe any of that stuff! As careful as I am when I nickel plate even a small item,wearing nitrile gloves,and with a hood,I still get that nasty,metallic taste in my mouth,and on my lips. Takes forever to get it gone.

I guess that Sears was ahead of the curve on that product!!!!


When I was heavily involved in ski racing this was a frequent topic of discussion. The hard-chromed files are harder, but the tooth geometry is compromised as you say. The higher-quality chromed files (and Valtitans are *very* good) don't suffer as much as the cheaper ones, presumably due to superior process controls on the plating step, but they also cost an arm and a leg.

The guys who prepped skis for elite-level racers (Europa and World Cup) didn't use chromed files at all because their time was worth a lot of money and they wanted files that cut as fast as possible without leaving marks that they'd have to stone out, but they also could afford to and usually did throw out the used files (typically 8" 2nd cut and 6" smooth cut) after every tuning session.

[Pat Barry]

No big deal but platinum is pretty soft, not hard at all.

[Patrick Chase]

No big deal but platinum is pretty soft, not hard at all.

That quotation is from Rio Grande (https://www.riogrande.com/), which mostly caters to jewelers. In their universe Platinum is believed to be a "hard metal" :-).

[george wilson]

Yes,jewelers think platinum is a "hard" metal. What a bunch of WOSSES!!!!:) But,they do think that. It is harder than silver. Gold alloys can probably get as hard as platinum. But,that's a guess as I have never worked platinum. Too high priced for me! And,I really don't think it is all that pretty. I'd prefer gold any time.

[Mel Fulks]

jewelers do know there are much harder metals; the problem is they don't cost enough.

[Patrick Chase]

Here's a lowish-res image (http://www.corradishop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_13&products_id=27) of a Corradi 3-square needle file (click on "larger image"). It has the same knurling pattern and tip profile as the Grobet USA, so I continue to suspect that Corradi is Grobet's manufacturing partner. In addition to the similarity, I don't know of any other Italian makers.

[michael langman]

This thread bring back memories. I worked for Grobet File Co. in the late 1980's.

I received a set of #2 Needle Files as a gift from the Company, that were made in their plant in Vallorbe.

Every Christmas the owner would come over from Switzerland, and hand out Swiss Chocolates personally to each employee.

Sadly the plant closed in the 1990's. We did not make files at our location in New Hampshire.

My files do have sharp corners!

[Patrick Chase]

This has reminded me of how much I used to love macro photography. For kicks I took a closeup of the teeth of all five files. From left to right, Grobet USA, Grobet Swiss, Glardon-Vallorbe, Nicholson, Bahco. This is a crop from a larger image taken at 1:1 magnification from a tripod. The light source is a diffused flash from the top of the image, angled down about 50 deg.

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The Swiss quartet all have the same toothing pattern. Their tooth pitches match in both axes and the depth is the same, though there are variations in appearance due to variation of angle w.r.t. light source and angle within the camera's field of view. The Italian Grobet USA file has slightly finer primary pitch (the spacing of the main ridges), and finer and deeper secondary pitch (meaning that the notches that run across the teeth are closer together and deeper).

These are different files and edges than the previous set of shots, and the "edge sharpness" pecking order has changed quite a bit. There's a fair amount of variability both file-to-file and even between edges of a single file.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; excellent close up photo. Its does highlight the superior quality within the Glardon-Vallorbe 3 square file (shown 3rd), compared to the others being offered on the market.

Stewie;

[michael langman]

The Nicholson file looks closest to the Glardon-Vallorbe in sharpness at the apex.

I wonder if they will hold up as long as the other three files before the stop cutting on the point.

They appear to be more fragile.

It may be best to use the flatter pointed files to sharpen the teeth of the saw and then finish up with the sharper pointed file at the end.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; excellent close up photo. Its does highlight the superior quality within the Glardon-Vallorbe 3 square file (shown 3rd), compared to the others being offered on the market.

Stewie;

Except that in the previous photo the Grobet Swiss looked better, and if I turned them over to expose new edges probably any of the others could/would look better.

When I have a few min I'll take a picture of a few Glardons side-by-side so you can see the range of variation. Suffice it to say that all 4 of the Swiss files in that picture are within the range of manufacturing variation for the Glardons.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; excellent close up photo. Its does highlight the superior quality within the Glardon-Vallorbe 3 square file (shown 3rd), compared to the others being offered on the market.

Stewie;


The Nicholson file looks closest to the Glardon-Vallorbe in sharpness at the apex.

The differences between the 4 Swiss files are just manufacturing variation. Here are 8 Glardon-Vallorbe files, all from the same box, which means that if anything they should be more similar than arbitrary files from different batches. I randomly picked a corner from each of them. Configuration and lighting geometry is the same as before, though magnification of the crop is lower to fit all 8 in:

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The one on the right is about as sharp as the Glardon-Vallorbe from my previous photo. The other 7...not so much.

[Patrick Chase]

One last remark: Right now the Glardon-Vallorbes are the cheapest of the 5 files I photographed, at $7.60 each when bought by the box from Otto Frei. The Bahcos can be had for about the same if you look hard enough, albeit from less reputable dealers.

There's therefore no reason to pick one of the others unless prices change, so the argument about whether the Glardons are better than the others is academic at present.

The Grobet USA / Corradi file is an interesting point of comparison, as it's clearly a unique design from a different maker. They cost $9.26 each by the box from Gesswein. As I said earlier I don't think they're quite as smooth as the Swiss contingent, but I think the steel is a bit harder (based on some experiments notching the blanks just below where the teeth start).