New Laguna SUV not tracking

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hi All,

I have a one month old LT14-SUV bandsaw from Laguna. I am trying to get the 1" wide Laguna Resaw King blade to track. When I first got the saw I had this blade installed and it worked perfectly. I took the blade off to put a 1/2 inch on, changed my mind, but for the life of me I cannot get the 1" back on the saw. IN fact, at first I thought I had it on correctly, adjusted the guides etc, turned it on, and I started getting all kinds of black bits of rubber falling out of the upper wheel. I stopped it and found the blade digging into the tire - not real bad, but not something I am really thrilled about. So I figured what the hell, I must have made a mistake, so I went about trying to get it tracking again, and for the life of me I cannot get it to track. It is almost immediately moving off the back of the tire and impacting the frame of the saw on the left side of the upper wheel. No matter what I do with tension or the tracking knob this condition persists. I am trying to get to Laguna Tech Support, but I keep missing the guy. Anyone have any ideas? I read one thread on line where this had happened to one other person and it took some surgery to rectify. I am not a bandsaw neophyte - I owned a Jet 14" for years. I at least somewhat grasp the principles and I have to believe I am doing things correctly. (I hate it when you start doubting yourself with machinery.)

Anyway - anyone experience anything similar? I am batting a goose egg here - I broke the Carter arm on my Jet earlier this week. I am out of bandsaws to screw up! :confused: Any help would be most appreciated.

Joe

[Mike Heidrick]

Its the tracking adjustment and you move it in very very small increments. Move the wheels by hand slowly and you will see it move. Adjust till it does not.

[Alan Lightstone]

I feel your pain regarding getting someone from Laguna customer support on the phone. I've also been trying all day.

That being said, I never had any issues with getting my Resaw King to track on my 14SUV. But I agree with Mike's advice that small adjustments are necessary. And you can spin the wheel by hand to see if it is tracking before you do it under power, which should detect any large problems.

[Erik Loza]

Forgive my ignorance but is a 1.0" a recommended width for a 14-inch bandsaw? That's a pretty wide blade, even for bigger industrial saws.

Erik

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Folks,

Thanks for the responses. I got it working. The upper wheel would not move with the tracking adjustment knob. It would move toward me, but not back towards the back of the saw. I thought it was bottomed out and there was something wrong, but it turned out it was just stuck in a forward position. I tapped it with a mallet, gently, and the whole wheel slid back into the correct space, and I was able then to adjust the tracking. Phew. If it happens again I will try and get Laguna involved. They did actually call me back, but it was after I had fixed it. He said it might have gotten hung up (. Now I have to go and sand the tires smooth again. But at least I have one working bandsaw now. I am on vacation and wasn't going to be a happy camper without my brand new bandsaw. Thanks for trying to help all.

[Chris Fournier]

A 1" blade on a 14" bandsaw? No wonder it won't track, too much blade for the saw. On a 14" Delta I used a 3/4" blade back in the day.

[John TenEyck]

I doubt that saw can adequately tension a 1" blade, even if Laguna says it can, and regardless of whether or not you can get it to track straight. A 3/4" blade is probably the upper end of what that saw can handle, and I think you'd get better performance with that over a 1" one.

John

[Dan Friedrichs]

I disagree with the others - you shouldn't have trouble tracking a 1" blade on it. I have a 1" Resaw King on my LT14SE, and it tensions and tracks without any problems. That said, I got equally good results with narrower blades.

[John TenEyck]

Tracking and tension are two different things. The OP said he could track the 1" blade OK - once he got the tracking yoke unstuck. But I'll bet he and you can't put enough tension on it to take full advantage of its capabilities. With a 3/4" blade he should be able to, and that would result in the blade cutting straighter and faster. You may be able to get enough tension on it to use it, but not enough to take full advantage of it. 30K psi on a 1" blade takes a pretty beefy saw - I don't know of any 14" saws that can do it though maybe they are out there.

John

[Andrew Hughes]

It's hard to believe it but the Rk blade is a very unique critter.It really doesn't take very much to pull one tight and gets good cuts when it's sharp.
I just picked one up last week along with a Woodmaster Ct and it's a step above.The Woodmaster cuts faster but the Rk surface just might be glue ready depending on the wood.
Check out these specs

Sorry Joe if I am Hijacking your thread.

Aj

[Joe Beaulieu]

No sweat Andrew.

I can tell you that the yoke on this saw is much beefier than the flimsy junk on the Jet 14" saw I have, and Jet claims a 3/4 " blade is ok on that saw. The difference is significant. The SUV saw is made as a resaw machine, it has a 3 hp motor and a very heavy set of wheels, and by all tests I can certainly put more than the recommended amount of tension on that blade. Using the "deflect" rule about 6" below the wheel I only get a 1/4" of deflection on the blade, and I have resawn a block of purple heart that was 12" think effortlessly with that blade at that tension. It works beautifully. I appreciate ate the idea guys, but the 1" RK blade works fine.

Joe

[Erik Loza]

Joe, are the tires flat or crowned?

Erik

[John TenEyck]

I've never used the RK, but it's hard to imagine it can cut smoother than the Woodmaster CT. No trickery, this is not a one off picture. It cuts like this slice after slice:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/C4hpoJ0lUNz3Ir9gmeZlKnnjL0iVYYi6z7VxbTaTHBID3p7YOU GMqCZpy2sQnYfeMm74MUwI1SNZ0sbEmOrhtRqv6fjOKtL2X_iP hXMvMINk5cQ18a_e2EtyLx-D-bBR2PEceO6AF7uh5-O5xvhYc_FpOzTiQATfzE1Q-ngKlzPJeXHT4eT7-wA11Jq9n6RUbuTbJHl5lwTwQstqlNIujlMNMG9yKPGPf2kf1Du Ej1ZCnXzRIYcjkgO_QgvDJdPaIjoZRuWe-Dm-ZTrVPJowcovNuiP-GeQ0QJULDbU0S-pAczQ_K6ZRPNvgjBfPBpjSKGO7X352M8GGf9I9vqu2AGMhGvgD 1GQUy0A_3QhJ9Hw5ZjfShhrXABCjIwvZ19A3BgOoK4hQtTtO47 0ttVsI9lqsMLhx0OGEkRzx42lhwJ3qTjnLmCO02abkWCE-mvpVcQnL69QzuMs1vL4dFQrHBob0P2vAu9KVYof13VBDXMljtp bJEJVD_WRHSwKTGh2BbcHE6ai2FqC0SrK8DCb-Fe5Z10LftLmDwFd6hx0QQGdBCx5w6K1WUr3AxgDTYheZM6VH0q u3hsXOiLVLi0uHv97QMnVax_zuT9sfHIux2dMil9R19g=w640-h480-no

John

[Andrew Hughes]

Now that's a nice Cut John,I wouldn't change a thing with your setup.You got that saw dialed in nice!

Aj

[Van Huskey]

No sweat Andrew.

I can tell you that the yoke on this saw is much beefier than the flimsy junk on the Jet 14" saw I have, and Jet claims a 3/4 " blade is ok on that saw. The difference is significant. The SUV saw is made as a resaw machine, it has a 3 hp motor and a very heavy set of wheels, and by all tests I can certainly put more than the recommended amount of tension on that blade. Using the "deflect" rule about 6" below the wheel I only get a 1/4" of deflection on the blade, and I have resawn a block of purple heart that was 12" think effortlessly with that blade at that tension. It works beautifully. I appreciate ate the idea guys, but the 1" RK blade works fine.

Joe

While the SUV is the second beefiest 14" saw I have every played with I think if you put a strain gauge on the blade you will see it maxes out about 20K psi on a 1" RK. The one I set up for a guy near me was maxed out at about 26K psi with a 3/4" RK. So while at 20K it will cut well as it dulls the cut quality will drop, while this is true with all blades you will be able to get high quality cuts for longer with the 3/4" RK since you can get higher tension on it (more into the sweet spot for the blade 25-30K). So I would suggest when you have exhasted the 1" (will take a while since it can be resharpened several times) you replace it with a 3/4" RK and it will last longer. I understand the mantra is using the widest blade possible but that is only to the extent it can be tensioned where it needs to be. The 1" at lower tension will give basically the same cut as the 3/4" at a more optimum tension but it won't do it as long. My point being you won't give up any cut quality with the 3/4" and it will last longer between sharpenings. Note the 1" would give slightly better cut quality over a 3/4" if they are both tensioned the same with optimum (IME) being about 27K to 30K psi.

To Erik, all the Laguna Asian saws have crowned wheels, the SUV is Asian.

[Erik Loza]

...To Erik, all the Laguna Asian saws have crowned wheels, the SUV is Asian.

I can't imagine trying to manage a 1" blade on a 14" saw with crowned tires. That sounds like trying to get a stretch of 10-gauge romex back into a perfect coil again.

Erik

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Andrew. This is on my new Grizzly 636X. The factory blade was junk, which I expected. I made a few test cuts with it just to see what it could do. Ripping 8/4 and thinner was fine, but resawing even a piece only 6" wide was rough going with a poor finish. I put the 1", 1.3 tpi Woodmaster CT on the saw, adjusted the tension and tracking, and ran that same 6" piece through and my eyes almost popped out of my head. Then I tried a 12" piece of walnut. Slice after beautiful slice as fast as I could push the wood past the blade.

I am a happy guy. The Resaw King may be a great blade, but I doubt I'll ever look at it when I can get cuts like this.

John

[John TenEyck]

Exactly what Van said. It seems all BS manufacturers claim their saws can handle a blade wider than they truly can. My little 14" Delta says it can use a 3/4" wide blade. It can only put about 12K psi (measured) on a 1/2" blade. How the heck could you run a 3/4" blade? Yes, it will cut, slowly, but it won't cut well for long, nor will it last very long. My new Grizzly 636X is a very robust saw in its class. Grizzly says it can take a 1-3/8" blade. That seems a huge stretch in my mind for a 17" saw. I don't really care, though, I don't plan to ever use anything wider than the 1" blade I have on it now which cuts beautifully.

Whatever max. blade width your BS manual says the saw can handle, if you go one width lower I think you will enjoy better performance, fewer problems, and longer blade life. And narrower blades are cheaper. What's not to like?

John

[Van Huskey]

Thanks Andrew. This is on my new Grizzly 636X. The factory blade was junk, which I expected. I made a few test cuts with it just to see what it could do. Ripping 8/4 and thinner was fine, but resawing even a piece only 6" wide was rough going with a poor finish. I put the 1", 1.3 tpi Woodmaster CT on the saw, adjusted the tension and tracking, and ran that same 6" piece through and my eyes almost popped out of my head. Then I tried a 12" piece of walnut. Slice after beautiful slice as fast as I could push the wood past the blade.

I am a happy guy. The Resaw King may be a great blade, but I doubt I'll ever look at it when I can get cuts like this.

John

IME the CT's finish is behind the Tri-master which is behind the RK, though the difference is minor. The CT is the most susceptible to harmonics but cuts faster (and clears chips better) than the other two. While I prefer the RK for hand feeding (thin kerf) the CT makes the most sense for power feeding (1.3 TPI) so I have been gravitating that way. Each of these blades has pros and cons and one just has to pick the best one for them, the finish though different is not night and day better between the three.

[Erik Loza]

..While I prefer the RK for hand feeding (thin kerf) the CT makes the most sense for power feeding (1.3 TPI)...

Power-fed 1.0" Tri-master. Species are maple and Lyptus. Feeder was on the slowest speed.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/Samfeedingbandsaw2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/Samwithnewlaminatestrips.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/SeparatingstripsofLyptus.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/SamplestripsofLyptus.jpg

I've never personally been able to tell the difference in cut between a Tri-master and a Woodmaster CT. Or at least not any difference that I couldn't say was just a result of the species or of that particular piece of wood. We used the Tri-Master forever, I think. Had a connection for Lenox stock and maybe that dried up or something. Then, started using the Woodmaster CT because it cut the same, but was 2/3rds the cost. Still wish I had a chance to try an RK blade, though.

Erik

[Robert Engel]

Forgive my ignorance but is a 1.0" a recommended width for a 14-inch bandsaw? That's a pretty wide blade, even for bigger industrial saws.

ErikI agree! Lots of tension on a 1" blade.

[Myk Rian]

I disagree with the others - you shouldn't have trouble tracking a 1" blade on it. I have a 1" Resaw King on my LT14SE, and it tensions and tracks without any problems. That said, I got equally good results with narrower blades.
A 1" blade on a 14" saw is not a good idea. I really doubt you can tension one, properly, on your saw.

[Van Huskey]

Power-fed 1.0" Tri-master. Species are maple and Lyptus. Feeder was on the slowest speed.

I've never personally been able to tell the difference in cut between a Tri-master and a Woodmaster CT. Or at least not any difference that I couldn't say was just a result of the species or of that particular piece of wood. We used the Tri-Master forever, I think. Had a connection for Lenox stock and maybe that dried up or something. Then, started using the Woodmaster CT because it cut the same, but was 2/3rds the cost. Still wish I had a chance to try an RK blade, though.

Erik

I learned from Sam the ability to use a standard shaper feeder for the bandsaw. I leave mine attached to the shaper, pull it around and use it for the bandsaw. I use a Comatic 8 speed 3ph powered with a VFD and for tall veneer cutting I run it at 30hz on the slowest speed so I get about 3.25 FPM with any of the three blades it produces a near polished finish. The Tri-master and RK will produce a better finish BUT when power feed it takes chalking the surface to see the difference or using a harsh raking light. The CT gets worse on the really tall cuts (but still excellent), I attribute this to the lack of variable pitch and harmonics, only a guess. The thing about the RK is its thin kerf which saws precious wood when slicing veneer, is easier to handfeed tall pieces and though more expensive is more economical due to the speed, ease and cost of resharpening. The only issue I have with it is the small gullets (like the Tri-master) but that is only an issue with resawing tall pieces while powerfeeding while the CT is available in 1.3 TPI which still evacuates the chips in a tall resaw. While my MM20 has a reasonable blade speed one of the huge cast saws with outrageous blade speeds would be helpful. In the end the RK is purpose built for the hobbiest/studio furniture builder compared to the Woodmaster CT and Tri-master which were designed for entirely different markets so the RK makes the most sense for most even though the initial cost is higher in the end powerfeeding is the way to go for ultimate finish quality and thats where the CT really shines.

[David Kumm]

Band speed also plays a role in type of blade and tooth count. My old saws run at 6750 fpm while most new saws run at about 4000. Dave

[Andrew Hughes]

Erik your not missing a thing with a Rk blade what you guys have got going on is as good as it gets.
I look at the Rk blade as a fine jointery blade.Most woodworker would probably just use their tablesaw.
For tall Resaw Lenox rules.
Now I did see a video of a guy resawing something like Koa with a Rk blade and that makes sense to me.
Wow expensive wood easy as fine mahogany to cut.The thin kerf adds up quick.

Anyone reading this and wondering why don't I get flat glue ready cuts on my bandsaw?
I would like to point out that all woods move when there cut some more then others.
Only very dry well behaved wood will get the blade and saw to perform its best.
We cannot control what the wood will do.

Aj

[John TenEyck]

I'd suggest that 3.25 fpm is way too slow for the Woodmaster CT. I get much better finish at higher speed. I'm hand feeding, but I'd guess the feedrate is at least 10 fpm and probably higher.

Slower is not always better - quite the opposite in my admittedly limited experience with the CT.

John

[Erik Loza]

Erik your not missing a thing with a Rk blade what you guys have got going on is as good as it gets...

There's a local BBQ place here in Austin that is world-famous, was featured in an AmEx commercial, President Obama got take-out there, and that all the hipsters wait 2-3 hours in line to eat at. Everyone I've talked to says their BBQ is great. Now, my wife and I have tried pretty much every BBQ within a 50-mile radius and there is one that we consider the best. It is about a half-hour drive out of town and there is never a wait. My logic is, "Why should I wait in line for 2-3 hours when I can just get in the car, have awesome BBQ, and be back home and taking a nap on the sofa while all those hipsters are still standing in line. Or do they know something I don't?". So, whenever I run into someone that has tried the first place, I always ask the them if they have tried the place that is my favorite.

That sums up my relationship with the RK: I know lots of folks swear by it but I've never been able to justify paying what Laguna asks when you can get a Lenox for less, that gives awesome results.

Erik

[Van Huskey]

I'd suggest that 3.25 fpm is way too slow for the Woodmaster CT. I get much better finish at higher speed. I'm hand feeding, but I'd guess the feedrate is at least 10 fpm and probably higher.

Slower is not always better - quite the opposite in my admittedly limited experience with the CT.

John

Technically the blade was designed for MUCH faster feed rates, but then it was designed to be used on sawmills, not hobby bandsaws. Try slamming a 18" hunk of exotic hardwood through at much faster than 3 fpm and you get the blade slamming the thrust bearing and doing nasty things in the cut, just not enough beam strength in a 1" blade even at 30k psi. You also have the issue of chip clearance, the gullets just aren't big enough to clear the swarf from that tall a cut on my MM20, if I had a saw that ran 8,000 to 9,000 FPM it would help a LOT. Plus are you talking about hand feeding? In general hand feeding you want to go as fast as you can with as constant a rate as possible. I can read the cut on any of my handfed resaws and tell you exactly where I repositioned my hands or picked up my push stick. The constant rate of powerfeeding brings a whole new level of finish into play. Now if I am ripping strips for bent laminations say 4" wide (or less) in most domestics I'm only limited by how fast I can get to the other side to take the outfeed (given my feeder). If I had someone to catch I would probably run ~50 fpm. In the end I should have been more specific, I was just talking about my worst case, wide, hard, expensive wood that I want to cut as thin as possible and merely have to kiss it with the sander/scraper or plane. The other issue is you generally don't run into slow feedrates burning wood on a bandsaw. A bandsaw blade tends to run much cooler than a table saw blade (the bigger the saw the cooler the band) and the blade is narrow enough it is unlikely for wood to close on the blade and can't get cut twice by closing on the back of the blade like on a TS.

[Van Huskey]

There's a local BBQ place here in Austin that is world-famous, was featured in an AmEx commercial, President Obama got take-out there, and that all the hipsters wait 2-3 hours in line to eat at. Everyone I've talked to says their BBQ is great. Now, my wife and I have tried pretty much every BBQ within a 50-mile radius and there is one that we consider the best. It is about a half-hour drive out of town and there is never a wait. My logic is, "Why should I wait in line for 2-3 hours when I can just get in the car, have awesome BBQ, and be back home and taking a nap on the sofa while all those hipsters are still standing in line. Or do they know something I don't?". So, whenever I run into someone that has tried the first place, I always ask the them if they have tried the place that is my favorite.

That sums up my relationship with the RK: I know lots of folks swear by it but I've never been able to justify paying what Laguna asks when you can get a Lenox for less, that gives awesome results.

Erik

My guess is the lines are for Franklin BBQ.

My favorite BBQ place was in Western North Carolina (I am a pulled pork guy) but in the last couple of years it has been ruined by being discovered and getting some social media fame, the lines are long, the service is down, the signature dishes are gone, the portions halved and the prices doubled. It gets one and 5 star reviews, the ones are from people that knew what it was and the fives from people just "discovering" it.


I'll reiterate my take on the RK, it has advantages over the Lenox blades in particular for people with smaller saws or wanting a thin kerf (the finish is MARGINALLY better and if it isn't powerfed you won't see a demontsrable difference). I think the big advantage is actually the economy. While it does cost more than the Lenox blades $300 for the MM20 compared to $240 and $140 for the last TM and CT I bought it only costs $45 to resharpen including return shipping so about $55-60 bucks all in. So when it a RK is resharpened only once it is cheaper than a TM and not much more than a CT. I got three sharpenings out of my last RK so at todays prices thats about $115 a blade. Some people get 4 sharpenings and I probably would have because I drove it into the ground the last time because my TM I had as a backup needed to be rewelded and I was in a hurry. I see them like I see the Forrest WWII, Tenyru Gold Medal and Freud Next Gen Premier Fusion I happily use all three but when push comes to show I can cite pros and cons for each but unlike those table saw blades I don;t know of a better carbide band than those three.

[Erik Loza]

My guess is the lines are for Franklin BBQ...

Yep! I'd love to try it some day but am having a hard time believing that it's 2-3 hrs. wait better than Opies' (our favorite).

Getting back to the blade-thing, this is what I see as a guy in the industry: Many folks are under the impression that there is that "magic bullet" of bandsaw blades that will cut everything perfectly: Wet wood, dry wood, exotic species, domestic species. That it will cut fast, track like a laser beam, regardless of what machine you have, and give you results you don't even have to sand. And there is at least one vendor that has been mentioned in this discussion that, in my opinion, that somewhat markets their blades this way. Just look at all the "What's wrong with my cut" threads on Sawmill Creek. People need to realize thta blades are like shoes. You have a pair of work boots, you have a pair of dress shoes, you have a pair of sneakers, you have a pair of flip-flops, etc. But lots of us don't apply that logic to buying blades. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[David T gray]

There's a local BBQ place here in Austin that is world-famous, was featured in an AmEx commercial, President Obama got take-out there, and that all the hipsters wait 2-3 hours in line to eat at. Everyone I've talked to says their BBQ is great. Now, my wife and I have tried pretty much every BBQ within a 50-mile radius and there is one that we consider the best. It is about a half-hour drive out of town and there is never a wait. My logic is, "Why should I wait in line for 2-3 hours when I can just get in the car, have awesome BBQ, and be back home and taking a nap on the sofa while all those hipsters are still standing in line. Or do they know something I don't?". So, whenever I run into someone that has tried the first place, I always ask the them if they have tried the place that is my favorite.

That sums up my relationship with the RK: I know lots of folks swear by it but I've never been able to justify paying what Laguna asks when you can get a Lenox for less, that gives awesome results.

Erik

so what is your favorite place ive had Franklin bbq last week didn't think it was amazingly better then anywhere else.

you can order Franklin online now and go pick it up they started this recently you just have to pick a day a month in advance lol.

[Erik Loza]

so what is your favorite place ive had Franklin bbq last week didn't think it was amazingly better then anywhere else.

you can order Franklin online now and go pick it up they started this recently you just have to pick a day a month in advance lol.

Our favorite place is Opies, in Spicewood...

http://www.opiesbarbecue.com/

I'm sure Franklin is good but, because I live in Austin, I can also say that lots of people wait in lines at any number of restaurnats here, just to post a picture on Instagram of them waiting in long lines at a restaurant here.

Erik

[Van Huskey]

I'm sure Franklin is good but, because I live in Austin, I can also say that lots of people wait in lines at any number of restaurnats here, just to post a picture on Instagram of them waiting in long lines at a restaurant here.

Erik

Today many caught in the social media vortex choose where to eat based on the plating and how it will look on their FB and IG. It has started an over the top soigne plating trend that causes too many chefs (particularly young ones) to throw the idea of editing out and wind up with too much on the plate. I have a feeling I could go into many fine dining restaurants and let people waiting for a table take a picture of my food and they would just leave.

[Glenn Kotnik]

I agree with those who feel a 1" blade is pretty dicey on a 14" saw. Are you sure you need a 1" blade to do your resawing? I've used the RK but have gone back to the 1/2" woodslicer from Highland Woodworking. Even with wide tough wood the Woodslicer works well with good guides. The RK worked well on my Laguna 18 when the blade was new but after a couple of resharpenings it developed vibration. With the Woodslicer I can buy a new blade for half the cost of having the RK resharpened.

[Van Huskey]

I agree with those who feel a 1" blade is pretty dicey on a 14" saw. Are you sure you need a 1" blade to do your resawing? I've used the RK but have gone back to the 1/2" woodslicer from Highland Woodworking. Even with wide tough wood the Woodslicer works well with good guides. The RK worked well on my Laguna 18 when the blade was new but after a couple of resharpenings it developed vibration. With the Woodslicer I can buy a new blade for half the cost of having the RK resharpened.

While the impulse hardened spring steel Woodslicer* is extremely sharp and does a great job initially it dulls very quickly, a carbide blade will outlast them 15 or more times. The Woodslicer is really a situational player for most people, used for great finish when you need to take advantage of the very thin kerf and/or if you have a small light saw that can't provide much tension and you still want to resaw.

* actually the Highland Woodslicer is the most expensive version of the same blade stock, Iturra sells the Blade Runner for less and Spectrum Supply sells the Kerfmaster for even less. It is all the same impulse hardened spring steel blade that is "borrowed" from the meat cutting industry