Help with complex molding.

[Steve Schoene]

I'm about to embark on a new project--a book press that I hope to construct in the manner of Williamsburg case goods, though the basic form factor comes from a 1740's English piece. (Book press is the terminology for a book case with doors--very similar to the top of a secretary, but I'm not doing the desk.)

Assuming the image can be seen, I'm looking for guidance on a schedule to make this molding for the cornice. The model for the original has it of one piece--not stacked up--and I'd like to do it that way too if I can. Even the dentils appear to be chopped from the solid.

I drew this on the assumption that I only will have two pairs of hollows and round planes, along with the usual rabbet planes, saws, and chisels. Not adverse to burning a few electrons--but NO TAILED ROUTER or shaper.

When I say one-piece I mean for the face, which can be cut from a one-inch walnut board, backed by southern yellow pine.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Ambitious, Steve--I like it!

In theory, the two H&Rs are enough. In practice, maybe not. That said, I would use my #55 for much of the plowing work. If you have a plow plane or a #45/55 and a few widths of plow blades, that is how you waste much of the material and provide the "absolute" location for the rounds to be guided.

The beveled material, without a combo plane is more difficult, but could be scribed and then cut with a shoulder plane.

The reprint of the Stanley 45/55 is available from a number of sources and whether you have/use a combo, it shows a sequence for cutting. But it is pretty logical, really.

If you would like, I can take your drawing and make a drawing showing the sequence I would use.

Mike

[Steve Schoene]

Wow, would appreciate your suggested sequence.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Will do. I've got some progress billing to finish up and then, as it is more interesting than the work on my bench, I'll work it up as I'm obviously at my computer.

Well, that and I have a short attention span and if I don't do it I may forget <g>.

Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

Wow, would appreciate your suggested sequence.
Ok, here it is. Clicking on the image below will take you to a larger version.

Note that only the board thickness and the profile are to any sort of scale. Neither the cutters nor the H&Rs are to scale.

I draw the profile on the end of the wood, usually. I have at times also used a panel marking gauge to transfer lines down the length of the stock, making notations in pencil right on the face of the board as to shape/cutter.

A number 10 or 12 H&R and a number 4 or 6 H&R are needed. As is a plow with various width irons. If something other than a Stanley #55 is used, you will need to tack on guide strips to the surface, which could alter the sequence a little.

In actual practice, the H&R are "worked" into the profile, pivoting on an imaginary axis in order to cut the full sweep of the cove or ovolo (well, ok, really a combined profile known as a cyma recta).

While I wouldn't relish the thought of using a shoulder plane in place of a plow plane, there is only one place on the profile that a sizable shoulder plane couldn't be forced to work. The starting point, #1, due to it being defined (or confined) by the convex portion to its left and the angular portion on its right (at least how the graphic below shows it) limits the width of the cutter.

In the cut sequence, #s 6/7, being concave, are often defined with a plow with different width irons and stepping down in size as one cuts into the cove. This I did not show. It is done to waste stock quickly to be followed by the H&Rs and to provide a straight channel for the H&Rs to follow. #6 would be heavily shaped with plow irons while I would probably only use the cutter used at sequence #1 to plow a single channel for sequence #7.

There are probably more things I am missing that I don't think about when doing. And it's been a while since making some molding by hand.

Make sure to practice on an easily worked wood, perhaps 2 foot long. I use Mahogany for practice mostly, sometimes Pine, but it is stringy. This will help you practice the sequence and most likely find something I left out or put down incorrectly. If so, give me a holler here or via my email address and I'll try to help.

It looks like more work than it is, btw.

Mike

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/molding_sequence_sml.jpg (http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/molding_sequence.jpg)

[Steve Wargo]

Mike said a few things that are really worth noting here. One is that you'll probably be hard pressed to get it cut with just 2 pairs of Hollows and Rounds. and the other is that it is much easier than all of the diagrams and explainations look. As long as your irons are sharp, there usually is not much tear out and when there is tear out a rounded scraper or scratch stock will take care of it. Another plane that may be needed is a snipe bill to clean out all of the quirks. Hope this helps, and Mike's sequence looks good to me FWIW.

[Steve Schoene]

Thanks--that is a LOT of help. Eventually, I'll post the results and my slow progress reports. I've got plenty of walnut sapwood to practice on, and a lot of cabinet making to do before I need to make the final cornice.

Next month I hope to talk with with a fellow who has made a close reproduction of the original secretary that has this molding. He's a journeyman at Colonial Williamsburg. Of course, his reproduction was made 100% with reproductions of 18th century tools.

The original secretary, which has a pediment I'm not going to do, is in the Colonial Williamsburg collection and was quite likely made in Williamsburg, possibly even in the the Hay shop, which was originally where the reconstructed cabinetshop is now. The secretary is published in several places: Furniture of Williamsburg and Eastern Virginia, 1710-1790, by Wallace B. Gusler, p. 123. and in Southern Furniture 1680 - 1830 The Colonial Willamsburg Collection by Ronald L. Hurst and Jonathan Prown. P. 470.

[David Klear]

Mike
What program did you use to draw up the workthe sequence.?? Nicely done

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi David,

I used CorelDraw. Quick and dirty. Imported the .bmp of Steve's molding and created an outline of the face.

I then created a 1" thick rectangle to represent the board and rotated everything as if it were laying flat, face up on the bench.

What I didn't do was worry about the size of the rectangles that represented the plow irons, nor the curved portion of the rectangles to represent the H&Rs. I did take a quick look at my H&Rs to see which number I would at least try to use, and so those are *probably* accurate. And it depends on maker for the H&Rs. No standards exist, really. But they are usually off just one number set.

The general "rule" is to always use the widest plow iron one can. In this case, it would take two widths. Another generalization, at least the way I work, is to begin in the middle and work out. Makes it easier for me to keep the layout in proportion. And as well, one needs to waste material with a plow anyway, so beginning with the square plow cuts sorta makes sense and they define the transitions, whether they are another flat cut or a curved one.

Mike

[James Mittlefehldt]

I am glad Steve asked this question, and now I have another. I have a few fairly complex molding planes that I have as yet not done anything with. The complexity of the cutters sort of scared me off as they would no doubt be a bear to sharpen.

So having said that what would be easier using one complex cutter, or a series of hollows and rounds and beading planes and such, to achieve a similar result? Before you ask I don't have a 45 or 55 either.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi James,

The cutters are not too difficult to do, just more tedious. If the profile is not totally bunged by someone in the past, I usually reshape using conical diamond hones from DMT. I reinsert the cutter to eye my progress (or lack thereof), sighting down the sole with the iron barely protruding.

Once the profile is restablished, I slightly flatten the back--whether it needs it or not. I then use regular slips to hone to a final polish.

If the profile needs more work than what is accomplished by the above, I position the cutter so it protrudes through the sole enough to mark it using a fine point permenant marker on the front of the cutter (the flat, non-beveled side). I then grind that profile, and establish the bevel, again using a grinder. I reinsert the iron several times during the process.

Oh, when I reinsert the cutter for either process, I always lightly insert the wedge to ensure the profile is done properly. During use, I withdraw the iron and lightly hone the back to freshing the edge and go back to work.

So, have said all that, which is easier: a complex molder or the plow/H&Rs? If the profile is small enough, a complex molder that has a sprung profile is good. I've run hundereds of feet of white Oak for picture molding for a restoration using a complex molder. 1 1/2" profile if I remember. For crown, it is another story. Really wide complex molders can require two people to use effectively.

For what could be called cabinet maker's cornice molder like Steve's example but smaller, it is doable with a single iron molding plane by one person. But I would find it very tiring to do much. But then I'm a wimp <G>. On Steve's, one is looking at a plane to cut a 5" profile. Not doable by me.

The lower cyma recta can be found, as well as the upper ogee, as seperate complex molders. What is left is a plow plane to strike the straight portions.

So, other than having a few planes in different scale to make complex shapes, it is necessary to use H&Rs and something for a plow. It offers more flexibility in replication.

No #55 needed.

Mike

[Mark Stutz]

Steve,
Thanks for starting this thread. As a novice Neander this is something I have often wondered about, and is the reason I dan't have these planes...couldn't figure out how to use them!

To all, are there any bokks with instructions and hopefully pictures? Hint to Steve...take pictures as you go ! :D

Mark

[Steve Schoene]

Its a fun process. I enjoy the research part in particular. I've seen the English original up close, seen the modern 18th century reproduction, and been poring over publications from the Williamsburg collection.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Reason: Posted rant in error

Geez, I missed it...

I get all wraped up in the books. Hard to put them down and actually try some of it sometimes. I would love to take a trip back East one day and see some of our country's history and furniture.

Mike

[Steve Schoene]

Any one who doesn't visit Colonial Williamsburg is really missing something. It offers a sense of history and culture of that remarkable period where the goings on in some unimportant colonies began a process which changed the whole course of history. There is something for everyone. The craftsmen in the cabinet makers shop and the other crafts shops are amazing, and bring that period to life. For a glimpse at the goings-on there go to www.history.org The January conference Working Wood in the 18th Century gives an opportunity to see some of America's top craftsmen showing how they do it. This year's topic is chairs. It looks like it hasn't filled up yet, but likely will soon.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Too cool, thanks Steve. Mike