Italian 24" bandsaw re-vamp lower wheel adjustment or tire dress / both ?

[Tom Trees]

Hello Creekers
Thought it was a home run for this bandsaw ,the restoration and modifications were done
It was recommission time for this Griggo SNA 600 ...
Just doing some adjustments concerning the lower wheel
testing and such ,when my VFD did not start my saw after turning the saw off
So Its been In storage for the last while ,moved into new shop
and now I got it running again !!:D
Sorry I don't have much good photos of the work anymore ,just mostly VFD stuff
but I'm happy to share any details as, 'wecher love are saws ere .


Work carried out ... happy to go into more detail ..

Mobile base build design ...lever design credit to Bob Minchin (9fingers) .
This is a v2 bandsaw base design for me ...you cant put spine of saw close to the wall as the foot levers will hit it ..
unless you take off the 4 components ..could be good for security though not mobile then ?..
,

Trunnion bracket build ...there was a G-clamp holding the table on , as the casting for the single bolt was broken .
I tried replicating the base lever design ,just upside-down ..its not great TBH I would do something else again.
like new Minimax design ,But at least its safe as can be, now

Fence build from scratch .might make more mods to this in the future

VFD installation, Huanyang 2.2KW ,just brought back from the dead ...
Its a bit dicey yet though and I haven't programed in the pot again (adjustable speed) for fear of the magic smoke .
I had the pot working previously and I was running the saw at roughly 30HZ
as their was a lot of back and forth movement in the blade , towards the operator then against the thrust guides .

As there was a flattened grape sized lump missing out of the lower tire , I thought Id nothing to loose by taking it down abit.
I think its worse after crowning the wheels now
although the side to side movement is gone and now I can set the rollers close .

It seems after more research all large Italian saws have flat wheels instead of crowned ..
I think I will try flattening the crown off , but first
I would like to get the optimum setting of the lower wheel as I don't have any margin for error left.
I've set it co-planar and setup the yaw aswell .
The side of a lapped plane iron clamped to a block of wood works very well for scraping the tires ,
Might have another go...


So what position should the blade ride on the lower wheel on a 24" Italian saw ...

Does the blade track in exactly the same position on both wheels of your machines ?

I've got a 1" a 3/4" and a 1/2" blade to set my lower wheel up , just to see if both wheels
track evenly with different blades .

Would love to hear any input
Thanks folks
Tom

[Erik Loza]

On blades over 1/2", I track the blade so that the teeth hang off the front edge of both wheels. This is for tire longevity.

Adjusting the lower wheel is no big deal. It just has bolts rather than the quick-change mechanism. You will be adjusting 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock bolts, not three or nine, and go slowly: The adjustment is dynamic. I have never needed to check any Italian bandsaw for co-planarity of the wheels to get it cutting the way it should. The fact that it has flat tires greatly de-complicates all those setup issues. The body of your message is a bit disjointed, by the way.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

Thanks for replying Erik
I just wanted to make sure if the blade tracks in the exact same position on both wheels
or is there say for the sake of it ...the blade riding 2mm closer to the rear of the lower wheel..
Like ....Should I be shooting for the exact same position ?
Thank you
Sorry for the disjointed message ,I can never write properly when its dinner time for the dogs :rolleyes:
Thanks
Tom

[Erik Loza]

As long as the teeth aren't tearing up the tire, that's what you're shooting for. It doesn't matter on a saw with crowned wheels, since the set of the blade teeth is accomodated by the curve of the tire profile but it matters on Italian machines, since the tire is flat.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

Thanks Erik
I don't think theirs much chance of that as theirs no meat left for the saw kerf to take away
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I just wanted to have some idea before i go scraping again .
I suppose i can get down to a point and try some adjustments again
before i scrape further ...
What ya'll think of the colour ?
Thanks again
Tom

[Van Huskey]

Listen to Erik.

I find flat tired saws more forgiving than crowned wheels BUT if while tuning and tracking a flat tired saw you treat it like a crowned tire saw you will be chasing your tail needlessly, for example don't stress about the blade not tracking in the exact place, it rarely will without the crown to pull it in to the center. Also don;t worry about co-planer wheels it is a myth, at least to the degree most wheels are out of plane. Many people work tirelessly to get wheels co-planer when they have other issues that need to be addressed but co-planer gets the blame. I personally have never had t fuss with the lower wheel on a steel Euro saw. In the end if flattening the tires doesn't fix all your issues quit looking for more stuff to play with when you KNOW of an obvious problem. Unless you can sand it out the tire needs replacing, don't try to will the saw to work perfectly when you aren't addressing a known defect. If flattening the wheel doesn;t fix all the issues replace the tire before potentially wonking something else up. General rule of thumb don't touch the lower wheel adjustments on a bandsaw until all the other posibilities are ruled out.

[Erik Loza]

Wow... So, did you actually put a crown on that lower tire?

Erik

[Van Huskey]

Thanks Erik
I don't think theirs much chance of that as theirs no meat left for the saw kerf to take away
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I just wanted to have some idea before i go scraping again .
I suppose i can get down to a point and try some adjustments again
before i scrape further ...
What ya'll think of the colour ?
Thanks again
Tom

You probably have enough tire left to get it flat BUT you simply need new tires.

[Erik Loza]

You probably have enough tire left to get it flat BUT you simply need new tires.

Yeah, now that I look at it. My feeling is that it will be huge headaches trying to track a blade with a mixture of flat and crowned tires. Maybe that is all your frustration so far? I agree with Van that it might be easier to just scab off the existing tire and start from scratch. One thing to be aware of with aftermarket poly tires like Carter. They're fine but a poly tire for a 24" wheel is going to be slightly loose if you go that route, since the wheel is actually 600mm. I sort of recall a thread where an owner tried putting a 16" poly tire on his MM16 and ended up with a big, gooey mess once he put tension on the blade.

Another idea would be to call SCM Group parts and order a replacement rubber tire for a Centauro S600P. Centauro is the only Italian saw that has user-serviceable tires but they are a tongue and groove profile. You could probably take a utility knife and carefully shave away the tongue, then have a true 600mm rubber tire to glue on. Just a thought.

Erik

[David Kumm]

i think your machine is either an ACM Star or Meber. You might source tires from places that sell those machines. Rubber is the way to go. Dave

[Tom Trees]

Wow... So, did you actually put a crown on that lower tire?

Erik

There was a small band in the middle of the tire that was flattish ...
with a channel cut deep into it from the kerf of a blade
There was bad side to side movment because of lumps taken out ..a blade snagged on some rubber at some point
aswell as getting stuck in one of the bearings and slightly damaging the bearing cover ...
I pulled them and replaced them ...I doubt it needed them though .
So yeah bottom wheel was toast .
This saw got a heavy bump as their is signs of jacking screw damage and a dent behind the wheel
...and it was used for cutting pallets or something with nails in it as there's deep scratches on the table .
I was running this saw at 30hz and there was a lot of movement /vibration
Maybe I'll configure the pot again and keep testing

Or maybe I'll try track the new narrow blade by hand without annoying the fairies ,
Its got 3 welds on it though ....:eek:
Bottom line I'm getting here ....flatten the crown and try again ...

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Thanks

[Peter Kelly]

Pretty certain Griggio owns ACM so I'd be surprised if it was a re-badged Meber.

[Tom Trees]

Thanks again Erik for clarification on the Centauro S600P tires having a tongue .
I can get them at a place called scott&sargent but they're very pricey and postage is hefty too .
I would defiantly choose the rubber tires on a machine of this class
I'll keep ye updated
Thanks

[Van Huskey]

i think your machine is either an ACM Star or Meber.

I agree and will go a step farther and say I am pretty sure it is an ACM. It is important to note Griggio specs their SNA line slightly differently from the standard Star line an example is the solid cast wheels, the Star line has spoked wheels as standard, though many are specced with solid wheels. Mebers usually have the angled off part at the top of the spine and their 600 is built heavier than the Star line, more like the ACM BS/Griggio SNAC and a couple more inches of resaw height than the Star.

[David Kumm]

Pete and Van, thanks for straightening me out. I thought Meber had been absorbed or gone out of business but see I'm in error there too. Were Meber's smaller machines similar to your comparison with the Star, and heavier- closer to the ACM " A " line? It gets confusing in the used market as Laguna imported some of both while Felder and Bridgewood stayed with the heavier series. Whether each importer changed some spec's is also above my pay grade. Once I went with old cast iron I lost track of the steel saws. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Pete and Van, thanks for straightening me out. I thought Meber had been absorbed or gone out of business but see I'm in error there too. Were Meber's smaller machines similar to your comparison with the Star, and heavier- closer to the ACM " A " line? It gets confusing in the used market as Laguna imported some of both while Felder and Bridgewood stayed with the heavier series. Whether each importer changed some spec's is also above my pay grade. Once I went with old cast iron I lost track of the steel saws. Dave

Steel saws are impossible to keep up with the rebadging/changing suppliers/custom specs and companies going and coming and getting bought out. ACM can now be bought with Laguna guides and they now sell the Laguna LT16 under the ACM brand in Europe. The current Meber small saws (500/600) are heavier than the Star line, more akin to what ACM currently badges as the BS line and Griggio badges the SNAC line AKA the x40s. They also make a version of the 540 et al line with no rubber tires. I find Centauro to be the easiest to keep up with, everything (?) in the US and Canada is from the CO HD line for a while now and the older shorter resaw were from the CO line.

[Erik Loza]

This is just coming back to me now. The Meber 400mm machines we (and Laguna) used to sell back in the Minimax USA days also had snap-in tires. But I have no idea where you would get a 600mm Meber tire or if it even was of the same design. Yeah, that does look like an ACM machine to me as well.

To the OP, I got curious and searched for replacement rubber BS tires and apparently, Carter offers them. Their website states that their rubber tires are 15%-20% undersized, so it's possible that a 24" rubber tire could work on your machine. I imagine they could post to the UK as well. Just another thought...

http://www.carterproducts.com/band-saw-products/band-saw-wheels-tires/stretch-on-rubber-tires/24-rubber-tire

Erik

[Tom Trees]

Thanks Erik
That's really helpful
I will be checking back on this link again when I get some more beans .
Oh and it is an ACM STAR 600 by the way

[Charlton Wang]

As long as the teeth aren't tearing up the tire, that's what you're shooting for. It doesn't matter on a saw with crowned wheels, since the set of the blade teeth is accomodated by the curve of the tire profile but it matters on Italian machines, since the tire is flat.

Erik

Hi Erik,

Looking that manual for the MM/Sx00p bandsaws (https://www.partspronto.com/MachineDocs/S400P-S900P%20PARTS%20AND%20OPERATIONS.pdf), on page 23, it seems to suggest both based on the picture and in the text that the tires are actually crowned, no? To quote:

"The ring seal already has the correct convexity"

I know the manual isn't the best but...

[Tom Trees]

I'm still taking the crown off my lower wheel as it happens ...
I will post some pictures later and write up aswell
Although It could be one of these situations ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mdwAkWvWMw

[Tom Trees]

Hi again folks
I have a gluing rubber tire question at end of my post ..Hopefully you guys are familiar with this rubber ?
I managed to take the crown off my tires but the maximum blade I can use is a 3/4" .
The 1" blades that I have keep shuddering back and fourth ..towards the operator and back towards the thrust bearing ...
I think this is about the maximum I can take off my lower tire at this stage .

Now I REALLY need to get a hungrier blade ....like a 1.3TPI ripper, because I need to saw this stuff FAST!
I have a load of reclaimed stuff I need to take the moldings and other profiles off to end up with square stock.
I'm getting a reaction to this iroko amongst other timbers that I have from the Ivory coast or Ghana :(
I have weighed up the risk and I simply can't afford any other timber ....never mind 100% quartersawn lumber...
Nor will it be as stable as the wood I have, even if I was able to afford some.

This will be for a Scandinavian/Klausz/Cosman style workbench ...dead flat and accurate.
I'm not in any rush to start cutting this.... It's more when I do, it will be a case of cut it up and get outta there for a week or two.
I have to crosscut the timbers at the same time on the tablesaw to find grain orientation too .

Before that I need to commission the saw first ...VFD bought, working on damaged motor shaft soon, pulley source, mobile base build, install VFD and custom switchgear, guard design and build , riving knife build...Jigs done ....
It'll take a while .
I have/am getting loads more safety equipment ...proper HASMAT style for this timber and once done with it getting other timbers from there on .

So I have decided to go for the Centauro 600 tire ..It's got a rib inside that I will have to cut away ...so be it .
I asked the supplier would any glue react to this rubber ...they just suggested the cork product instead ....
I asked them what kind of rubber it was and got no reply back .
Obviously they are unsure and don't want to advise me on a product that isn't risky...
I have my heart set on the rubber ...and was thinking of using epoxy to glue it on .
Does anyone recognize this rubber type from the picture ? ....
Hopefully will chime in with their experiences on gluing tires on .
Thanks folks
Tom

I must add that this tire scraping motion for the tires works with a leaning angle away from the tire like a scraper plane (with no burr)
I couldn't cut a piece of wood at this stage to make a proper mounting block ... A slight twist of the block against the frame to increase the depth of cut.
Don't over do the twist or you will bite into the tire and leave a ridge . Hand turning the wheel is what I done ...even though I have a vfd with an adjustable speed pot .

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Care to take a guess what the composition of this Centauro tire is ....they make Mini-max bandsaw in Italy
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[Van Huskey]

I don't know the exact composition of the Centauro tire but I have always used 3M 1300 rubber and gasket adhesive and never had an issue. Some people prefer slow cure 2 part epoxy (especially for large 36"+ tires) but I have never had the 1300 fail.

[Tom Trees]

Thanks Van
I will have to look up that 3M 1300 ..that might persuade them to give me more of a clue to what these tires are made from.
I just rushed into Lidl supermarket because I remembered that they had UHU 2-K-quick epoxy adhesive ..
If this is not as suitable I will spring for the 3M instead ...
Off now to research some glue ..
I probably will be back for application tips and amount of glue required for the job (1 tire)
Thanks again

[Rick Fisher]

ACM, Meber and Centauro are all within 10 miles of each other. None are large companies.

[Van Huskey]

I probably will be back for application tips and amount of glue required for the job (1 tire)


It is best to do this off the bandsaw with a temporary shaft as an axle.

Stretch the tire onto the wheel

Take a 1" or so dowel (doesn't have to be wood) and put it under the tire and apply the glue behind the dowel as you roll it around the tire, this helps equalize the stretch and keeps a nice open area behind the dowel to apply the glue. Once you are all the way around remove the dowel and then turn the tire with one hand and press your other hand against the tire and smooth it against the rotation, this will ensure the stretch is equalized as the glue will still be acting basically like a lubricant at that point, be careful how you push it because you can push it right off the wheel and you will then have a proper mess. I then put some zip ties (loosely) around the tire and wheel about every 20 degrees to keep it from sliding off as the glue cures. You want them just tight enough to hold it but NOT compress the rubber. One it is cured you can trim the tire if needed and crown it but in this case you are going to crown it.


BTW by describing the process I am not saying all rubber tires on Euro saws need to be glued, many don't need it and some need more attention like vulcanizing, just responding to the request...

[Tom Trees]

I've just seen that the company which supplies the tires actually do sell glue for Centauro bandsaws ....
I was under the impression that they weren't glued on atall, judging by the Minimax video with Sam Blasco ...354299
All I seen the last time was UHU brand adhesive that comes in the similar 650g can ...
It looked overpriced, not to mention what extra the postage would cost.
No wonder I got no advice on the glue ...I think they were worried about the ribbed tire issue, and didn't want to provoke me by telling me bout the centauro glue :rolleyes:
I will give them an e-mail again to see if these tires are stretch on too ...I would like to be more prepared for the job.
They sell this UHU stuff for the cork tires that looks the same ...what kinda glue comes in 1kg tins ? its over 30 quid then VAT & postage on top :eek:
I think I will look up this other glue and find out what it is ...
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[Tom Trees]

Hi folks
Just thought an update on this would be of interest to some
I think I have sorted my saw out, hopefully................

After getting a replacement Centauro tire I thought I'd have nothing to loose by trying one final tire dress.
I decided to take the wheels off this time,as to check for squareness instead of laying a straight edge across the wheel.

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I'm glad I done this, as I was surprised how off square they were :o...there is an optical illusion when the wheels are on the saw .
I ended up with more meat towards the front on both wheels ...anyway
It seems that I might have found the root problem with my saw since taking the wheels off !
On the tensioning bracket, which is suspended by two bolts going into the casting there seems possibly to be some damage ...
I don't have a picture of the ends of the bolts, but it was evident that something was very wrong ...I could see the casting detritus on the ends of these bolts!!
If both these bolts going into this casting were screwed home it ended up with one bolt or the other, being off 90 degrees to the frame ...
Subsequently, this would have effect on the squareness of the mounting of the thing.
I put another set if nuts and washers on the other side of the frame so as to have both bolts going 90 degrees into the mounting bracket casting.
This hopefully seems to have sorted the problem.

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This saw had a fall at some point, as the trunnion bracket was broken when I got it ...
Taking it apart before moving onto a trailer, I loosened a G clamp to take the table off....
It was then I felt how heavy the table was on this thing :eek:
It nearly took me with it, luckily I managed to get a decent hold of it and not let it fall.
I have since made a big bracket so this can't happen.

So Another tire dress seems to have done it
It was a lot easier taking the wheels off, and nicer to be sure how close I was instead of guessing.

The method and tools I'd advise folks to have is ...
( My saw needs some painting now so some things omitted from list )...

A sheet of ply for the floor of the saw, as to stop things dropping and chipping the paint
A ballpoint pen, 2 if ya have em handy for upside-down use ..changing direction of strokes when getting close ..or a different colour either.
a G-clamp and a large F-clamp,
a square block of wood the length from the frame of your saw to the face of your wheel.
A slim piece of wood to G clamp a well lapped plane iron to the block
A length of timber to prop up, as for the F clamp to bite on ...
And a pallet piece for the top wheel clamp end to bite on to.
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Lower wheel ...
A towel around the F clamp as to not scrape the paint would be nice.
I don't have a piccy of the top wheel dressing but Its done the same way on the left side of the saw too...infact it's easier.
So clamping the block up with the f clamp first, then getting the g clamp into place, sliding the plane iron and slim block in under the g-clamp.

Having the iron leaning away form the wheel like in a scraper plane.
And tilt the main block into the wheel to the desired cut ....NOT butting the iron straight into the tire.

I hope some find this interesting.
My saw is running better than it ever was
Now hopefully this is just a damaged blade that's making this surface ....its a better result none the less

Thanks for reading
Tom

[Tom Trees]

Here's another piccy or two
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Hopefully this will be the end of the fuss with my bandsaw
Tom