Saw files: What to buy?

[Gary Cunningham]

I have a few Disston saws (D8 rip & crosscut, D20 rip) and they all need sharpened.

What brand/type of files would you reccomend?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The distonnian institute website has a section on sizing saw files to the saws. I think they sell them, or you can get them in most hardware stores.

[Phil Mueller]

I have had good success with Bahco taper files and Grobet needle files.

[lowell holmes]

I have had good success with Bahco taper files and Grobet needle files.

Amazon has a good selection of saw files.

[Mike Brady]

Nicholas, I wish the saw file situation was as easy as you suggest. I don't recall Disstonian Institute referencing saw filing or files. Also, it has been quite a few years since you could buy a decent saw file at a hardware store. Lee Valley has some again after being out for awhile. There is no US manufacturing of triangular files. Mexico and India are file-making economies currently, and their quality is highly suspect. For larger tooth saws such as 8ppi rip, there are files made my Nicholson in Mexico that can get you through a sharpening. The bad news is: How often do you need to sharpen a coarse rip saw? I use needle files on my rip back saws up to 15 ppi. There are sources on YouTube for saw filing instruction. Lie-Nielsen has one. The best I know of is Ron Herman's DVD on saw filing and tuning, available from Popular Woodworking.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

My apologies. I was thinking of Vintage Saws, which does have the sharpening guide.

I know for a while everyone was saying the Bahco's were the only files worth buying because the Nicholsons were so bad. Then George Wilson mentioned a while ago that he was able to get decent files under the Nicholson brand from the local home store. I have gotten a couple from my local hardware store that seem to work fine.

[Jim McGee]

Lee Valley caries Bahco saw files

[john zulu]

+1 to bahco. Cheap and sharp. I have used it on holesaws to even frostner bits. Still on my first file.

[Mike Brady]

Glad to hear about Bahco. The Grobet files seem to have fallen out of favor with suppliers. Lie-Nielsen doesn't seem to carry many saw files anymore, which I take to mean they lack confidence in any brand. They sold Grobet for a period of time.

[george wilson]

I will repeat,WITH CAUTION that the last MILL file I bought(Nicholson Mexican) was just fine. I was SO relieved to find that out. They seemed to have solved their early problems of decarbing making soft surface files. Theye could always be old new stock out there,of earlier Mexican made files.

[Steve Voigt]

I will repeat,WITH CAUTION that the last MILL file I bought(Nicholson Mexican) was just fine. I was SO relieved to find that out. They seemed to have solved their early problems of decarbing making soft surface files. Theye could always be old new stock out there,of earlier Mexican made files.

George, I think "with caution" is about right. A couple anecdotal observations:

The new Nicholsons are being sold as "black diamond" files. Back in the old days, black diamond was AFAIK a premium file, so maybe Nicholson is trying to recapture that reputation for quality. Let's hope it's not just marketing hype.

I bought one of the black diamonds (a 6" XX slim) and it seemed to work quite well on my saws. Some time later, I made a couple O1 floats, which is a lot harder on a file than saw-filing. I started with a Bahco, which worked well. As Isaac Smith has written, the edge does not hold up as well for cutting new teeth (as opposed to sharpening old ones) as vintage American-made files, but still it worked pretty well. Unfortunately that file was on its last legs when I started. After heat-treating my floats, I used the Bahco to file off the scale from heat treating, and that killed the file. So, I switched to one of the new Nicholsons. It didn't hold up well at all. The floats were harder than the LN floats, but still within filing hardness, but the Nicholson was dead in minutes. Then I switched to a Simonds red tang, which I had been meaning to try since Tom King recommended them here. Man, that thing was a champ, much better than the Nicholson.

Now, that's the only Simonds I've tried, and I've used a total of two of the new Nicholsons, so it would be unwise to draw any hard and fast conclusions. But I did order three more Simonds yesterday…

[george wilson]

I think the Simmonds are made in India. So you are fortunate.

[Matt Bainton]

Where were the Simonds from, Steve?

[Steve Voigt]

Matt, I got them on Amazon, they are easy to find.

[Normand Leblanc]

No later than yesterday I had someone home who wanted his rip saw to be sharpen. It was in really bad shape and I pulled a new Grobet file (bought from LV) from my stock. The file was gone in minutes. Pulled a second one with the same result.
I look again in my stock, found an old file that was part of a lot purchase identified K&F Canada, sharpen that saw with it and could probably do 3 or 4 more saws like that one.
The difference between the old files and the new ones is amazing.

[Stewie Simpson]

Normand's quite correct. The edge retention on modern saw sharpening taper files are still shite compared to those that were much earlier made.

The "W" on the advertising label (far right box) indicates those files were manufactured for Nicholson, by the Wiltshire File Co, Australia. An excellent quality saw sharpening file.

McPherson's Pty. Ltd. 1980: The company acquires Wiltshire File Company as part of its entry into the housewares sector.




http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/DSC_0017_zps4b03c297.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/DSC_0017_zps4b03c297.jpg.html)

[Luke Dupont]

About 6 months ago I bought a Nicholson saw file from my local BORG, and it hardly survived a single sharpening session. It was an imposter, at best.

I don't know if they're just old ones that have been sitting on the shelf, or if the new ones are any better, but I'd personally stay away from them and go with a brand that is known for better quality. Whilst I haven't tried them myself yet, I've also heard that Bahco files are excellent.

[Stewie Simpson]

As someone who is accustomed to filing new teeth on a hand saw, the ability of the taper files edge to withstand the demands placed upon is critical from a cost perspective. The corner edges of the taper file will fail well in advance of the flats. Once the corner edges have failed, the taper file should be deemed no longer serviceable for saw sharpening. The sharpness within the corners edges of the taper files is an important asset to look for, as it not only provides you with some additional accuracy within forming the newly filed teeth, but also enables a slighter deeper gullet to be formed (of incremental importance as you increase the ppi/tpi). Some of the taper files now being sold on the market now have inherently rounded corner edges, of which includes the Bahco brand.

[Rollie Kelly]

I was at the Lie-Neilsen store/plant ~ a month ago. While on the tour, I asked about saw sharpening files. The tour guide told me they were trying several types but, could not recommend any at this time.
Hopefully they will be able to make a recommendation shortly. This might be a good time for DMT or others to introduce diamond saw files. Right now it seems to be a "crap shoot".
Good luck with the CS,
Rollie

[lowell holmes]

Matt, I got them on Amazon, they are easy to find.

Plus one for Amazon. :)

[Phil Mueller]

Stewie, I was intrigued by your post. I really hadn't payed much attention to the corner edges as I have limited experience and new files are all I have to go with.

To your point...
Here is a photo of a #7 slim Bahco (trust me, a smaller file was too difficult to photograph, but I assume they are similar):

344422

And the resulting gullet:
344423

Clearly, a rounded profile.

I don't have any vintage files to compare, and frankly without vintage files, I'm not sure there's much choice but to live with what I can get new. Would love your take on what this represents regarding performance.

Appreciate the saw file education, and a renewed interest in getting my hands on some vintage files!

[george wilson]

Luke: You probably got one of the earlier soft as butter Mexican Nicholsons. The new ones are properly hardened,but i don't know how they compare to a Bahco file. Everyone recommends Bahco,so I'd go with them. David Weaver also uses Bahco.
t

[Pete Taran]

I have been selling and using current production Nicholson files for over a year. I use them personally and I don't see any problem with them. They are more regular in cross section than the Grobets I used to carry, but as others have noted, they are made in India now. I feel good that the files I use to sharpen saws that I sell are the same files I sell to customers are the same, and think they are just fine. I think where some people go wrong is buying a file and expecting it to last forever. I have always only used one edge per sharpening. I have discovered over the 20 years I have been filing that you can use a file almost indefinitely, but you are really wasting your time as the edge breaks down and the teeth burnish more than cut. I've carried Simonds, Bacho, Grobet and now Nicholson files. I like the Nicholsons. I'm sure they occasionally make some defective files, but then so did all the other makers I have carried.

Hope this helps.

Pete

PS. The saw filing treatise is available for free for anyone who wants to use it at the Vintagesaws.com website. It also has a table of what size file you should consider using for each tooth size.

[Phil Mueller]

Good to know, Pete, thanks!

[Pete Taran]

Phil,

I don't think the teeth you showed are like that as a result of the file. One of two things is happening:

1) You just didn't file deep enough to get the tips of the teeth sharp and pointed
2) You are "roiling" the file as you move in the gullet which causes the rounded edge

In my experience, the problem most file makers have is the edge doesn't come to a point. Grobet had this problem a lot. If the edge is wide (or at least not pointed) the gullets have flats in the bottom and the teeth are smaller. Bacho had this problem in the smaller sizes. It would be useful to see the teeth before you started filing to figure out which of the error modes I suggest above are in play.

Regards,

Pete

[Trevor Goodwin]

I thought saw files were meant to be 6-sided? By that i mean the flat edges are intentional, and this is the main difference between a generic triangular file and a saw file.
Paul Sellers discusses this and why it is necessary.

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks again Pete. I appreciate the experienced observation. I have a few more auction saws to practice on and will pay attention to your suggestions. I've done about 8 saws so far, so still have a wee bit to go to catch up to you ��

[lowell holmes]

Plus one for Ron Herman's dvd. You will be able to retooth, set teeth, and sharpen. I have the video and after seeing it, I sharpen any and all of my handsaws.

If I can do it, anybody can.:)

[Glen Canaday]

Paul does explain why the flat, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone give any formula or rule of thumb about how big that flat should be.

Also, I've never seen a triangular file that did not have the flats.

Also, I can't find a barette file that cuts on all sides to remake the teeth on my Acme 120, only the smaller safe edge files that would sharpen them.

[Stewie Simpson]

Paul; the general rule of thumb when selecting the right size taper file to ppi/tpi, is the flats should be (x2 the depth of gullet). A someone questionable guideline to follow, when you take into consideration the corner edges of the file will fail well in advance of any crucial wear to the flat faces of the taper file, during saw sharpening. imo

[Trevor Goodwin]

I had a quick read on Paul Seller's Blog, and he says the saw files are 6-sided so that they last longer. If they were a true triangle, the edges that come to point and do a lot of the work would dull quickly. If the edge is a small flat/rounded section, the teeth are stronger so the file will last longer.

In my mind I don't see why having rounded gullets instead of pointed should cause a problem?

[Pete Taran]

Trevor,

Sellers does some good work, but his theory on files isn't part of that accomplishment.

I have quite a few vintage files made by Disston and others. I've always considered that it's important to compare what they did back in the day when people made their living with such tools to what we produce today. While methods of production are certainly different, the characteristics of a perfect tool are not. The stuff they made 100 years ago was designed the way it was designed because it worked and it was efficient to use AND produce. If you had all three legs of that stool, you had a great selling product. No one used more files than Disston did 100 years ago, and they didn't make a consumer line and a shop line. They made one line for everyone.

Guess what? Those files come to as sharp a point as you can imagine. All the good files I've used come to sharp points as well. It is one of the things I look for when considering how good a file is.

Some things to consider. Why do people think the sharp intersection of the two sides does more work than any other part of the file? If you think about it, it really doesn't. If you are filing down into a triangle space, you are deepening the gullet, but you are also removing material from the sides of the teeth to bring the teeth to a point.

As to what does it matter if the bottom has a flat, it matters! If there is a flat at the bottom of a gullet, then by geometry, the tooth is not as high as it should be. Smaller teeth carry less dust and they clog more. This is not as big a deal on larger saws like rip and coarser crosscuts, but if you are filing a 14 point backsaw, I'm here to tell you if a saw file has a flat on the edge, you might not even be able to file the teeth as the width of the flat all but removes the teeth. Anyone who has filed a small toothed saw knows what I'm talking about!

If I were to give any advise, I would advocate just the opposite of what the various blogs say. Get the keenest edged file you can find that holds up for one sharpening per side. If it does and doesn't lose it's teeth, you have found a great saw file.

Happy Filing,

Pete Taran

[Isaac Smith]

In my mind I don't see why having rounded gullets instead of pointed should cause a problem?

For larger teeth, it's usually not a problem, but can become so as the teeth get smaller and the corner radius proportionally larger. In some cases, the corner radius becomes larger than the front edge the tooth, throwing off the geometry of the tooth (i.e., the take angle of the tooth is governed the radius of the corner, not the flat face the file as it should be).

Gullet capacity also decreases, which again, is really only an issue with small teeth.

The diagram below shows this effect, although it doesn't show the radius edge of the file coming all the way up the front edge of the tooth.

http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/saw-file-comparison.gif

[Pete Taran]

Isaac,

I like your graphic. It illustrates the point perfectly. The only thing I would add is imagine if the top file had a sharp corner. If it did, the height of the teeth would be taller than the result shown. This is always a good thing.

Regards,

Pete

[Trevor Goodwin]

Thankyou Pete and Isaac, you have illustrated your points beautifully.

[Trevor Goodwin]

Has anyone tried Pferd saw files? They have them in their catalog, but I can't find anywhere to buy them. http://www.pferd.com/images/WZH_22_201_E_en_72_dpi.pdf

Pferd make good stuff, I imagine their saw files would be good quality, at least better than Nicholson.

[Luke Dupont]

Trevor,

Sellers does some good work, but his theory on files isn't part of that accomplishment.

I have quite a few vintage files made by Disston and others. I've always considered that it's important to compare what they did back in the day when people made their living with such tools to what we produce today. While methods of production are certainly different, the characteristics of a perfect tool are not. The stuff they made 100 years ago was designed the way it was designed because it worked and it was efficient to use AND produce. If you had all three legs of that stool, you had a great selling product. No one used more files than Disston did 100 years ago, and they didn't make a consumer line and a shop line. They made one line for everyone.

Guess what? Those files come to as sharp a point as you can imagine. All the good files I've used come to sharp points as well. It is one of the things I look for when considering how good a file is.

Some things to consider. Why do people think the sharp intersection of the two sides does more work than any other part of the file? If you think about it, it really doesn't. If you are filing down into a triangle space, you are deepening the gullet, but you are also removing material from the sides of the teeth to bring the teeth to a point.

As to what does it matter if the bottom has a flat, it matters! If there is a flat at the bottom of a gullet, then by geometry, the tooth is not as high as it should be. Smaller teeth carry less dust and they clog more. This is not as big a deal on larger saws like rip and coarser crosscuts, but if you are filing a 14 point backsaw, I'm here to tell you if a saw file has a flat on the edge, you might not even be able to file the teeth as the width of the flat all but removes the teeth. Anyone who has filed a small toothed saw knows what I'm talking about!

If I were to give any advise, I would advocate just the opposite of what the various blogs say. Get the keenest edged file you can find that holds up for one sharpening per side. If it does and doesn't lose it's teeth, you have found a great saw file.

Happy Filing,

Pete Taran

When cutting my own teeth, I had quite some difficulty cutting the teeth accurately when getting as fine as 12+ tpi with the rounded edged files that I used, and I imagined that sharp corners would make the job so much easier, as you could start off with a much sharper and better defined tooth placement. The rounded edges just want to stray all over the place, and you simply can't be accurate with them.

Using a hacksaw does help, but due to the kerf of the saw blade itself, it's still tough when you get into the region of 16tpi or so.

I've never tried a saw file with sharp corners, but I really want to now. Does anyone still produce them?

[lowell holmes]

Actually, they have all of the popular brands of saw files